Yes.Nice post in both this cav and the tourney
@thenewguysnm1: You don't seem like the type who would take as long as I would. Any idea on when your final post will be up? I kind of want to take my criticism already from the voters.
I have had a few problems with my main laptop(Can only really copy and paste openers atm) but i will try and be as quick as possible.
I want to hear feed back aswell especially as we have a large voter pool.
I found newguy's true identity!
Thank you for this opportunity and this pretty solid CAV.
To start off, I think we both forgot the rules a bit. And for the voters, some may be a little confused.
Frieza is capped to when he first returned to earth and fought Trunks. That's his power level in this fight. HOWEVER, he has the skill and experience of current Frieza. Hence, the experience in hell, the tournament of power fights, etc. etc. So his mind frame now is slightly different from how it was back then. Frieza gets DB Anime(including movies) and Manga Feats
Naruto is EOS, I thought EOS would include the Boruto Movie and The Last, but I was mistaken it seem. This is Naruto At the end of the original Manga with the inclusion of anime feats, which would include ovas and such. If my opponent would like to correct me on this, he may do so and I'll edit my post as such.
Here are the rules i hope this clears things up.
These were two simple things that needed to be cleared up. Because some people are saying this is a complete mismatch for different reasons. Now on to the counters.
Lets get into it
That's fair. But so was Haku's Demonic Mirror, it was also based off scientific fact, and I know you don't actually believe Part 1 characters are light speed.
Obvious hyperbole is obvious.
Even then the general consensus for the feat was relativistic, not light speed, as for madara, that was from the databook. Which isn't 100 percent reliable.
Your 100% right the datebook is not 100 percent reliable, but i offer you this, when backed up by feats,lore and science the databook is extremely reliable like in this case
Or the Water Fang Bullet from databook 2 which was apparently light speed. I cannot find the exact page for some reason, but I can link you to some forums that translate it.
I have researched and cant find this anywhere, pretty sure you made it up.
Neither was you ignoring an entire section of speed feats and calling it all head canon instead of responding to them.
Im just gonna quote myself"Not a counter so i'm gonna take it as a concession thanks."
Its a no brainer that Rasenshuriken managed to take out all his hearts, it has massive firepower for a jutsu(especially at that time of the series) fantastic AOE, and in the explosion, there are thousands of blades slicing up the target(s) too fast for Kakashi's sharigan to perceive. There was no escape, and the move hit him at point blank range when he had all his hearts gathered like targets. I agree with that. Even though that happened, his body was still intact, and you cannot ignore that fact. I think its very fair to argue that Frieza has better durability feats than Kakazu, so my argument that it wouldn't do as much damage as it did to Kakazu is perfectly fair. Plus it seems Kakazu was very susceptible to piercing attacks anyway, since he lost his first heart to a chidori and his second one to an explosion of blades. The damage the attack did was indeed on a cellular level, but it did nothing but immobilize him(due to "poisoning his body and dealing nerve damage in the form of the chakara network) and prevent him from using chakara. You're argument is that it will outright oneshot and kill Frieza. Which is ridiculous.
I love how you ignored my screenshots, you know the ones where you make the same point im making now..
Anyway show me cellular resistance as well as piercing feats (they dont exist) or concede that the rasenshuriken is a fight ender.
Even if I agreed it wouldn't be by much tbh. And you bringing up the poster ad for Dypso that wasn't even written by Akira himself doesn't really give your argument much water.
Its official material from shounen just because you dont like it does not make it non cannon.
He did it against Toppo's Hakai before getting overwhelmed.
I gave you 5 instances where he did not use it and you gave me the one where he did, lets leave it to the voters to decide which they feel is more credible.
Why would rasengan and chidori kill Frieza? Piercing and Slashing attacks aren't as potent as you think they are against DB characters when early DB characters are bullet proof, and kid goku literally had a steel axe blade slammed on his head only to be broken. I think I mentioned this before.
Oh boy! Your really comparing a axe wielded by a regular human to this....
And TSB is the only thing I cannot really completely dismiss admittedly, in all seriousness its a fair argument that it could work on Frieza, but Frieza isn't going to sit and take it.
NGL Frieza doesn't really have a choice when he is pinned down by 4 invisible, intangible limbo clones and sasuke
Either Naruto or madara will hit him with tsb(Probably Madara)
Or sasuke blitzes with a chidori or naruto with a Rasenshuriken.
And for speed, I brought up Goku dodging lightning as a child in the anime and the amount of scaling Goku went through.
Horrible outlier, and it was ANIME FILLER.
Looking back on Kami's feats, seeing everything that happens on the planet all at once, is hard to quantify, so I'll drop it as a fea to scale from.
What can you scale from?
You are literally scaling from nothing.
There is no reason to vehemently look for a time frame when its not needed.
So no time frame great.
Broly is hundreds of times ahead of Frieza this adds nothing to your argument.
Oh and this is also FILLER AND NON CANNON.
Your using a non cannon movie about a character that has already been rewritten and rectoned.
Your making yourself look silly now.How are you comparing gods to Frieza pre god amp.
You're thinking too hard. I mentioned them as examples similar to why I mentioned Dypso. And I have the feeling the voters knew that as well.
Lets have the voters decide what they find more credible feats or head cannon.
Can you please stop picking and choosing what portion of each respond to reply to? Anyway, I already went over the Rasenshuriken, and in all honesty, it realistically isn't working. TSB, although based off statements and hype, I admittedly have no argument for it asides from redirecting it and countering it with Frieza's own attacks, so i'll concede on that and drop it.
So i have been asking for a scan this entire match and you have failed to give me one(it doesn't exist)
But you continue to give me head cannon, why?
You have no counter to RS or tsb though luckily you have conceded on tsb one shoting.
If they can physically touch Frieza, they can physically "touch" the air. Meaning they can be sensed.
No they cant be touched.You explicitly need six paths powers to even interact with them, but luckily they can touch you. Here are the scans(Something that you lack)
Okay??? Then he blasts all of them at once. GG.
Assuming Frieza isn't already blitzed this is what happens if he tries a ki blast
Why?? What is stopping him? Whether its telekinesis or energy, or simply powering up, there is no reason why this should restrain him....Vegeta shook the planet and changed the weather just by powering up.
Thats great for vegeta(Not Frieza).
Oh and thats not even a strength feat.
I don't get it. If he can stop someone else' telekinesis why can't he stop theirs? There's no real reason why he couldn't. They never restrained someone with Frieza's level of strength or raw power, so I could counter by simply saying that. Your argument takes you nowhere.
Show me Tk on this level...
Anyway thats just a distraction which could lead to Frieza who notoriously has poor piercing resistance getting cut in half by a chidori or Sussanoo or hit by tsb or destroyed on a cellular level.
Frieza is heavily reduced to Mecha Frieza level, is not allowed to planet bust and this fight is a 3v1, Do i really need to repost the rules.
I said it was a composite Frieza so he could use mecha feats if needed as well as namek feats
Doing this helps you and only you, i even gave you skill feats from super lol.
If you were worried about them not breathing in space, make the planet indestructible.
Anyway, at this point we are arguing about things that don't matter.
Here is King Vegeta destroying planets, same thing I described
Yay more filler.
What on earth does star wars have to do with anything.
Ignoring even that detail, energy durability nor slashing and piercing durability doesn't mean much when that much force can barely scratch you. If you want to boost your claim, give me an idea on the level of cutting efficiency your characters have.
Oh you want scans great ...
here is another one from The Last!
As for molecular and cellular damage, yes the burden of proof is on me in that regard,
Great soo where are those feats.
although I have presented my case,
What case have you presented im still waiting for those scans that dont exist.
jus I will also argue that you would also have to show some form of evidence.
What more evidence can i show you? Were the scans not enough?!
to imply it is dangerous to Frieza?
NO! I am not gonna let you do this to me show me my scans or concede the point simple as that.
My argument is that your attacks are NLFs per se,
This is a message to the voters what Death is trying to is cover up for the fact he has no feats to suggest Frieza can defend against certain types of attacks so he is saying that it is a NLF. Laughable.
For example, here's a cell manipulation feat from Lucy, from Elfen Lied; she utilized her powers to connect cells, in order to heal wounds.
Different verse. Different rules.Ignored. Next...
Toriko, is another example, of celluar attacks that rain supreme
Viruses and Diseases also cause cellular damage, Radiation to the body can cause cellular damage. And Frieza has the capacity to handle both. Powerful races such as the Saiyans and The Frost Demons(who can evolve themselves, which would require the manipulation of one's cells anyway) are too powerful for the planet wiping bio-weaponized virus called the Extinction Bomb
So no scans great.
The frost demons is not even a canon term.
What your saying is not stated in the scan you posted.
Frieza AT THE VERY LEAST can resist the Rasenshuriken, and that's being extremely generous.
And this is based off of 0 scans stating he can, 0 scans showing he can and all in all no concrete evidence.
Classic dragonball debating, frieza tanks it because he is Frieza GG.
1. Repeated Battles implies, he gained the speed boosts from past battles. PAST. Repeat is being used in the past tense..... Where the hell do you get "just" implying now? Unless you are implying he JUST surpassed the speed of sound as well, as if that's impressive, even though the series surpassed that level of speed over 500 chapters and some couple hundred episodes and movies ago. The statement will always be vague and can always be interpreted as being used in the past tense because grammatically speaking IT IS in the past tense. There is no way around this. And he surpassed that speed by an unspecified amount too so that doesn't help either.
Lets be generous and say he surpassed light by 1000 times he is over 1000 times faster than Frieza meaning by using your logic frieza cant be Light speed.
What's next? Goku is lower than mid-tier because he could hit someone with stated (and iron skin is in his fighting arena name) Iron Skin and not one shot them? Even though Ki amplifies stats including resistance and toughness?
TLDR version: since you like to split up my paragraphs; The characters surpass the speed of lightning, with the various times the characters boosted up in power, they would have had to eventually reached the speed of light or somewhere near it. Even if that's not the case, the feats I presented should supplement my argument regardless, its up to you and the voters on whether or not you think they are credible.
Touche.Its up to the voters to decide whether they want feats and commons sense as well as author statements or if they want to believe crazy backwards scaling with tons of fallacies and feats that are contradicted by the AUTHOR.
But that wouldn't stop him from attacking and retaliating whatsoever if he could fire off energy attacks while cut in half....
Scans of him doing this(They dont exsit)?
That's not what I asked for or mentioned. I said you didnt once elaborate on strategy.
Wait till my final piece i will go into major detail.
Stop splitting my paragraphs and only responding to one SPECIFIC sentence to make it seem like you are actually countering something and accomplishing something, it makes your post longer and harder to go through for both me and the voters.
I love how you still are not showing me the feats i asked for.
Let me start over and rephrase what I was saying. The reason why I can see Frieza getting tagged by the magnet release on purpose is because of the toppo incident. If naruto started off with rasengan and it failed to work and decided to use the magnet release version, Frieza might think the attack would look familiar and try to tank it.(unless he picked up on the fact that the technique is completely different.)
Brilliant.We both agree frieza would try and tank it and we both agree he would get sealed/killed
But its oddly specific for the tier, which is why I didn't think I would have to bother. Goku as a kid lasted a good bit against an electric shock technique from Roshi.
Did i ask for feats for goku? I said show me resistance feats for frieza(they dont exist) and you have essentially said no lol.
And as a kid, Goku took multiple lightning bolts in the episode Quicker Than lightning Dragon Ball Season 5 Episode 127
Even though its filler its good to understand that Goku has lightning Resistance. So where are those frieza feats.
Examples dude. Examples.
Non cannon dude.Non cannon.
First example you presented was trunks. Trunks was so much more powerful than Frieza. That's why that happened. The difference in power was so great that he not only caught Frieza's strongest technique which was used to destroy planet Vegeta. But completely outpaced the explosion, and Frieza couldn't even tell he escaped. Trunks then launches a blast a Frieza, forces him on the defense then blitzes him and proceeds to kill him. He sliced up his entire body including the alien technology that was keeping him functioning.
So now you want to use mecha feats.Anyway fair enough i am just showing you that every piercing attack frieza has been hit with had him in bits.
As for the Kiezan and the Death Saucer, both are the most effective cutting techniques in the verse. I don't really see your point. Plus Krillin has more raw power and DC than any of your characters scaling wise, so he would definitely be in the position to perform that feat because he could put more power into the technique. Frieza himself is several times more powerful, so that says something as well in his case. Not really sure how techniques that are used by characters more powerful than yours really help your case.
Krillins best feat is cutting a hill in half this is my characters feats.
here is another one from The Last!
Not sure how you got that but nothing else, but okay.
The lack of feats is what gave me that idea.
Amaterasu doesn't have the level of heat necessary to kill Frieza...so what would it do exactly? if you put my hand in a bucket of cold water, for an hour, would my hand fall off? I'd ask the same question for a campfire,(lets assume the fire is contained to my hand) sure the latter would be quite painful but it wouldn't be enough to disinigrate and turn my hand to complete ash. It would only be heavily charred and that's about it. Where am I getting at here? Oh right, Amaterasu doesn't compare to the heat and energy of the attacks Frieza has dealt with, on top of surviving a planet's explosion, so what exactly would you accomplish? Plus he has mostly gone for body shots(which would make more sense since it would spread equally across the body making it much harder to get rid of instead of just the head where one could focus all attention to.) Plus it has been proven that the technique can be either dodged, like i showed above, or pushed away with force like Nagato did.
Fair enough though Frieza lacks the ability to push it away nor the knowledge to deal with the attack.
That was on a thread several months ago, my views change.
Oh isn't that ironic how your views have suddenly changed...
Question: About how many of Freeza’s race are there? Are they quite thriving, with a big population?
Freeza is what you might call a mutated life-form. Strictly speaking, Freeza’s father is a mutant with an abnormally high battle power. And, born from his father alone4, still in strong possession of the mutant traits, was Freeza.
Accordingly, even saying “Freeza’s race”, these two are the only ones who possess an abnormal [level of] battle power and cruelty.-Akira Toriyama
Firstly whats your point?
Secondly do you want to use author statements or not?
You bringing up past arguments on a thread irrelevant to this one won't strengthen your arguments whatsoever.
Yes it does it proves that you don't really believe what you are talking about and that you believe in the points i make.
On a thread that has no bearing to this.
Its literally your words not mine.
And in my previous posts I honestly wasn't trying.
If you say so.
I didn't bother doing research,
>Yet posted multiple scans and links from non cannon materiel
Its cheap, low and pointless.
Challenging my integrity is not cool.
But yet his body was still intact.... and yet Kakazu was still living.....do you know what cellular damage is?
Yes i do know what it is.
Lets say somehow someway he survives the cellular damage its piercing capacity is still huge as you can see below...
I didn't look into it, because I completely forgot what cellular damage entails.
Then when I looked into what cellular damage was, I looked into the Rasenshuriken itself and compared it to various cellular attacks in fiction and its honestly not impressive. The extent of Kakazu's damage wasn't impressive.
How does this relate to Freiza this would just mean kakazu has some form of resistance which makes sense considering all the tampering he has done with his body.
Frieza has never come face to face with such an attack so we really have no idea how he will react to it
Naruto and Sasuke only started off with sealing because the situation called for it, and because both Sasuke and Naruto knew they were fighting an immortal enemy with regenerative abilities.
Why would chopping a immortal in half help him?
Its in character as in all his fights he starts with a blitz.
I see no reason why this fight is any different.
Still doesn't change the fact, that the last time they saw each other they were at each others throats, what guarantee that in a random encounter, that those three would work together? if anything it would just turn into a free for all.
Oh please naruto and sasuke are best friends and Madara redeemed himself before death in the anime, it would not be a free for all but if you want to go that route then Genjutsu GG.
Except that Krillin and Vegeta were not threats, and he assessed that. He was never put in a situation once where he would have to actually go all out. Even when he went final form he did not use 5 percent of his power. They could not force him to at all. If your characters have the resources necessary to overwhelm Frieza like you claim, he wont hold back.
He will hold back as in his mind its 3 humans going at him.
In his mind its 3 fodders running at him and unfortunately that will be his down fall
But not only does that contradict everything that has ever happened in the DB franchise,
Like what?What exactly is contradicted as it sure as hell isn't feats
but that contradicts what was said in the DBS anime. Dyspo was stated to surpass the speed of light in the past(hence the word repeated battles)
Well that is down to interpretation. Through repeated battles he has finally surpassed the sped of light.
( Hence the word repeated)
but this guide says he's only light speed.
Which only adds to my point.
1. Character Tendencies won't mean much if the characters coming at Frieza are according to you a bit faster or fast enough to pressure Frieza, let alone overwhelm him with high scale attacks like Chibaku Tensei, or Meteor attacks, or clone swarms. Even if you wanted to argue Frieza won't use any of his versatile ki moves to make things interesting, brute force and raw power is all that is needed and any attempt to overwhelm him will force him to use it.
Well my team are definitely faster, i personally see a chidori bltiz ending this fight very quickly.
2. The Rasenshuriken, after long thought, shouldn't work on Frieza, the TSB at best Frieza could redirect it or counter it, but not tank it at his current levels. Everything i mentioned in that regard was admittedly a stretch even with skill feats. That I can concede on.
Thank you for finally conceding the point.
Tsb one shots and considering my team have two sets you cant make a case for it not killing Frieza.
3. Literally the only ground you have to stand on is lowballing the DB franchise by using some guide out of nowhere that contradicts the actual source material and by bringing up old battle threads that don't pertain to this debate.
Using guides,author statements and the majority of the series IS LOWBALLING i never knew.
I thought I would have more to say, but I guess not. With that, I close my post.I now realize I hate debating for any character that isn't past the cell saga lol. Thanks for the debate
I understand it can be problematic at times(Because the lack of feats).
Now for the final parts i will show my fellow viners why my team win if not stomp.
Ok im sorry i had to name a few more ways my team win just so that even the biggest detractors can see how Team Naruto win.
1. Poison/wood release
As far as im aware Frieza has no poison resistance feats so here is another fight ender
Madara even has one planetary in scale
I completely over looked this earlier but due to the similarity between KI and Chakra Madara and Sasuke should be able to take his KI/energy Like you see below.
3. Frog Kata is a move that is very effective as its a legit invisible nature attack that from what we see ignores durability, Its just the technique that could could literally knock Frieza off his feet
4. The outer path.
This is interesting as it could literally seal or soul steal Freiza and its in character
Note the Nagato feat was done with MADARAS eye
Well i guess im done now.
@deathhero61 Thanks for the solid cav even if it did run a little long lol.
Good luck and see you next time.
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Note if you weren't tagged it was probably on purpose.
Try and take personal thoughts out of this and vote for who debater better
Please give a couple of reasons why you think a certain debater one
It would be greatly appreciated
On the argument part i would give you guys more or less a 60/40 Both had some good, some okay and some terrible arguments. Here i would lean more towards @thenewguysnm1, mainly because he never tried to use filler episodes to consider feats. Mostly sticked to the canon feats only. @deathhero61 used to much filler feats and he didn't try to answer some of the questions asked.
on how long it took to get an answer, i give it to @deathhero61, he countered it as fast as he could. Newguy you had personal things to do and i understand that but 3 months ist too much.l. Even if it was not the case, you could thought out your counters way better and had a lot of time searching for the best possibilities. Like i said not saying that you done that but it is a possibility and in CaV this is, at least imo, a pretty unfair thing to do. It doesn't help that you started another CaV while still not finished with this one here.
But what made you lose is your constant personal attacking of your opponent or/and the community you are arguing against. This is just like a real life argument where you may be in right about your statement but you antagonize yourself so much that noone wants to give you the win. You may think that this is not obejctive but truly it is. Insults/attacks while arguing is always a negative point.
If you would have stay calmer and didn't took so long with your counter i would have given it to you @thenewguysnm1, while i am more a DB fan than a Naruto fan. But 3 months of time for a counter and talking trash to your opponent took it away for me.
Somehow my upper part is compeltely white so i cant quote you but you had some lines like you make yourself look silly etc. Those are not insults directly put more of an attack against your opponent rather then a counter to his statements. Like i said. You need to stay away from those kind of phrasing. It doesn't help your case.
I want both of you to lose but since I`m only allowed to unvote single combatant - I`m voting for deathhero61.
and here`s why :
1. Poison/wood release
As far as im aware Frieza has no poison resistance feats so here is another fight ender
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