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#101 Posted by haoalchemist (6196 posts) - - Show Bio

T4v.

I know y'all can do better...especially you deathhero..smh

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#102 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewguysnm1 said:
@deathhero61 said:

@thenewguysnm1:

Now with that out of the way there is one more thing i wanted to talk about and that is the fact that Frieza starts the battle in BASE. He has never gone straight to his final form so will not here,the fact you think he is a little faster in his final form means he get blitzed in his base.So yeah he starts in base meaning your gonna have to explain how he survives the initial blitz.

We never established this when talking about this matchup, plus in every single instance he has appeared he has appeared in his final form.

It says so in the op why would he start in his strongest form thats OOC

When Frieza was revived on several occasions he started off in his final form. Not in his first form, or his second form or third. Also those are reduction forms. Those are forms that suppress and conserve his power.

Plus I wasn't aware of this when we were talking about this in the Challenge A Viner thread.

Team Naruto are essentially replacing the z fighters Frieza starts fights in his "Base"

If you really need him to start in his final form that is fine.

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#104 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: Fine.I am gonna edit my post a little.

When will you reply?

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#106 Posted by DeathHero61 (18870 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: Fine.I am gonna edit my post a little.

When will you reply?

Either today or sometime tomorrow. Absolute latest assuming something comes up IRL such as work or school, is friday.

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#107 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: Yeah if forgot though some feats can only be attributed to GF

Do you mind deleting some of the comments we have cluttered are own cav

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#108 Posted by DeathHero61 (18870 posts) - - Show Bio
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#109 Edited by DeathHero61 (18870 posts) - - Show Bio
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#110 Posted by DeathHero61 (18870 posts) - - Show Bio

T4v.

I know y'all can do better...especially you deathhero..smh

Looking back at my posts, I agree. I'll try to do better next time.

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#111 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio

@haoalchemist said:

T4v.

I know y'all can do better...especially you deathhero..smh

Looking back at my posts, I agree. I'll try to do better next time.

I agree to be honest though i am going in hard for my closer

@thenewguysnm1: Let me know when you fully edited your post.

You can start with your counters just ignore the parts where i talk about you not repping Frieza properly

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#113 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio
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#114 Posted by Kratosx64x (1258 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V again but no counter arguments?

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#115 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V again but no counter arguments?

My counter is on PG2

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#116 Edited by Galan_Destroyer (914 posts) - - Show Bio

Is this open for votes? If not T4V when this end

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#117 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio
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#118 Posted by Kratosx64x (1258 posts) - - Show Bio
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#119 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio
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#120 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump before bed

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#121 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio
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#122 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio
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#123 Posted by TheEmperor95 (1672 posts) - - Show Bio

you guys must be trolling to say they beat any version of frieza

Online
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#124 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio
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#125 Posted by bdelloidgrain2 (1988 posts) - - Show Bio

Frieza would destroy anyone from Naruto.

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#126 Posted by AlexTheBoss (18464 posts) - - Show Bio

you guys must be trolling to say they beat any version of frieza

Frieza would destroy anyone from Naruto.

this is a CAV it isn't for your opinions. The point is for two debaters to try and prove their point and at the end everyone votes for who they think won the debate, not who they think would win the fight.

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#127 Posted by bdelloidgrain2 (1988 posts) - - Show Bio

Ahh, my apologies. I did not mean to interrupt.

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#128 Posted by TheEmperor95 (1672 posts) - - Show Bio

oh I didn't know what a cav was. my bad

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#129 Posted by DeathHero61 (18870 posts) - - Show Bio
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#130 Edited by SuperGoku17 (7220 posts) - - Show Bio

Just wow T4V

Im surprised he hasnt brought up ss or genjustu or AT for sasuke

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#132 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio
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#133 Posted by SuperGoku17 (7220 posts) - - Show Bio
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#134 Posted by DeathHero61 (18870 posts) - - Show Bio

Just wow T4V

Im surprised he hasnt brought up ss or genjustu or AT for sasuke

Because Genjutsu is restricted.

Naruto vs. Dragon Ball comes down a singular argument: genjutsu or die. There are a couple other hax that could work on DB characters, but not many (like the truth-seeking orbs). Freeza, even at the end of super, had only trained for 4 months of his life. So he falls for the hax; he specifically lacks the feats to say otherwise.

His best skill/ki control feat is handling that Great Value Hakai right before the TofP. Goku couldn't get free but was enduring in his base form.

And even the genjutsu or die argument comes down to two things (1) Do non-shinobi have chakra, and (2) Are DB characters willful enough to break control? Argument 1 is nuanced and I'm not touching it right now, but argument 2 does not apply to Freeza IMO, because he not nearly as skilled as the Saiyans or even Piccolo.

But even in first form he was a casual planet buster, and that seems to be the upper limit of Naruto's power levels.

Make mine Freeza in an overwhelming majority.

Can you please delete your comment?

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#135 Posted by DeathHero61 (18870 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewguysnm1: I'm going to see if I can get this sorted out this week. Otherwise, I'm gonna have to start going to the library or school just to do comicvine posts which would be really annoying.

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#136 Posted by SuperGoku17 (7220 posts) - - Show Bio
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#137 Edited by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#138 Posted by ChaosReigns (193 posts) - - Show Bio

Not even the most powerful character in naruto is taking down Frieza. Frieza stomps.

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#139 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio
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#140 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio
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#141 Posted by The_Stern_ritter (566 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn this was impressive and entertaining

Good looks

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#142 Posted by DeathHero61 (18870 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewguysnm1: my post is almost done. Expect it either in the next hour or if i fall asleep the next 6-8. Its basically midnight where I am so expect it today in other words.

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#143 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewguysnm1: my post is almost done. Expect it either in the next hour or if i fall asleep the next 6-8. Its basically midnight where I am so expect it today in other words.

It the middle of the night here in England so its fine

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#144 Edited by DeathHero61 (18870 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewguysnm1:Thank you for this opportunity and this pretty solid CAV. In this post I will do my best to make it better than the last two which lacked effort and scans.

Climax and Concluding Post

To start off, I think we both forgot the rules a bit. And for the voters, some may be a little confused.

  • Frieza is capped to when he first returned to earth and fought Trunks. That's his power level in this fight. HOWEVER, he has the skill and experience of current Frieza. Hence, the experience in hell, the tournament of power fights, etc. etc. So his mind frame now is slightly different from how it was back then. Frieza gets DB Anime(including movies) and Manga Feats
  • Naruto is EOS, I thought EOS would include the Boruto Movie and The Last, but I was mistaken it seem. This is Naruto At the end of the original Manga with the inclusion of anime feats, which would include ovas and such. If my opponent would like to correct me on this, he may do so and I'll edit my post as such.

These were two simple things that needed to be cleared up. Because some people are saying this is a complete mismatch for different reasons. Now on to the counters.

Character Tendencies

Exhibit A

Exhibit B

Exhibit C

All of these that you serve as evidence were filled with context.

The first thing is that Frieza is extremely cocky and would tank attacks he sees as beneath him. If you want proof well click the links below.

So yeah this show that In character frieza will certainly try and tank my teams attacks,unfortunately for him my teams attacks aren't regular attacks so will attack him in ways he has no counter for.

First one I'll address is the fight against nail, which I have went over several times. Throughout that entire arc, the nameks posed no threat to the entirety of Frieza's team and Frieza himself, Nail was no different. I already explained the context multiple times in my last post. He wanted information. He barely cared for a fight here. The entire arc he was spending time looking for the dragon balls for immortality.

Second one I'll address is Cabba, another fight he had under control, he was stomping him in his base form with no real effort, saw him powerup, and for the hell of it, went Golden Frieza when he saw a generic ki blast coming from a powered up Cabba to easily tank it. I really don't see what your point here was. He assessed that it was a ki blast so he tanked it, and as a bonus used his Golden Form to show the difference in power between the two.

And finally, the one that actually matters is Toppo, this is what I was referring to before last post. Frieza was familiar with this technique, he even managed to conquer it. This time around because of said prior experience he got confident and attempted to tank it.

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If he knows nothing about a completely foreign technique, why would he tank it? I showed that he wouldn't in the case of the assassins. Every other instance was someone who he KNOWS is significantly weaker than them so he tanked it.

Even in the Frieza's fight against Krillin, Vegeta, Gohan and Piccolo, he was dodging and deflecting their attacks. As I showed last post.

Even against Krillin, Piccolo, Gohan and Vegeta he actually bothered to dodge attacks,

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And deflect them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQxXQf8xUWQ

You act as if Frieza doesn't dodge attacks at all. During the tournament of power, even against the saiyans(who he was PURPOSELY holding back against and toying with) he dodged their attacks and didn't tank attacks to tank them.

As for your attacks.

Naruto almost always starts off with standard rasengan attacks or shadow clones or CQC.

Naruto vs Pain:

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Raikage vs Naruto: Before Bee cut in his first option was going to be shadow clones. He did the exact hand sign.

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This is the same naruto who doesn't need clones to prepare his techniques anymore.

Naruto vs Muu: attempted to engage him in close quarters by blitzing. First thing he ever did.

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Naruto vs Obito: Attempted CQC blitz.

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These are just a few of the hundreds of examples. And that's only naruto, I can show examples for Sasuke as well:

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Sasuke vs Deidara^

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Sasuke vs Killer Bee

Even against someone as fast and brutish like the 4th Raikage, he rushed him and aimed for CQC first before anything else.

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Madara speaks for himself but he is the only one who might end up starting off with something unique. But it sure as hell won't be any hax.

Character Centered(sort of) Counters:

Naruto:

Warping space is a LS feat that is scientific fact,

it also makes sense as Madara able to literally spit lightspeed attacks

That's fair. But so was Haku's Demonic Mirror, it was also based off scientific fact, and I know you don't actually believe Part 1 characters are light speed.

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Even then the general consensus for the feat was relativistic, not light speed, as for madara, that was from the databook. Which isn't 100 percent reliable.

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Or the Water Fang Bullet from databook 2 which was apparently light speed. I cannot find the exact page for some reason, but I can link you to some forums that translate it.

Not a counter so i'm gonna take it as a concession thanks.

Neither was you ignoring an entire section of speed feats and calling it all head canon instead of responding to them.

Yes this is wrong Kakazu literally died three times.Now for those unaware of Kakazu he is pseudo immortal who prolongs his life by taking the hearts of others this also gives him extra lives.When clicking this LINK keep in mind that those little faces very close to Kakazu are the hearts that BASE naruto destroyed.Meaning he killed him not once but twice.

Yes a Pseudo Immortal who is extremely fragile, his durability is lackluster and has lost a heart to very insignificant attacks. Which is why I keep asking you why Rasenshuriken is so impressive. His hearts died fairly quickly, first to Kakashi's Chidori, second to the Chouji's blunt force.

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Its a no brainer that Rasenshuriken managed to take out all his hearts, it has massive firepower for a jutsu(especially at that time of the series) fantastic AOE, and in the explosion, there are thousands of blades slicing up the target(s) too fast for Kakashi's sharigan to perceive. There was no escape, and the move hit him at point blank range when he had all his hearts gathered like targets. I agree with that. Even though that happened, his body was still intact, and you cannot ignore that fact. I think its very fair to argue that Frieza has better durability feats than Kakazu, so my argument that it wouldn't do as much damage as it did to Kakazu is perfectly fair. Plus it seems Kakazu was very susceptible to piercing attacks anyway, since he lost his first heart to a chidori and his second one to an explosion of blades. The damage the attack did was indeed on a cellular level, but it did nothing but immobilize him(due to "poisoning his body and dealing nerve damage in the form of the chakara network) and prevent him from using chakara. You're argument is that it will outright oneshot and kill Frieza. Which is ridiculous.

Literally all you're telling me is that it operates on a cellular level without telling me to what extent. Because cellular damage and manipulation, just like molecular and atomic, in fiction varies. I may not have any proof that Frieza could shrug it off, but you have absolutely no proof that it could kill someone as durable as Frieza, when it couldn't kill The Third Raikage.(who survived it because he was that durable)

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His only feats of durability is surviving an all out fight with the Eight Tails. Which very impressive when you take into consideration that he only injured himself with his own ninjutsu during that fight. But I don't see how that stacks up to Frieza.

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All around the Jinchuriki should be around mountain level in all areas of destructive ability. Maybe higher. His other feat is surviving light speed travel which is impressive but its not really quantifiable or makes much sense for the tier of the series, all things considered.

Also just to elaborate further Frieza does not have a choice my team are faster so will land whether or not you like it.

Even if I agreed it wouldn't be by much tbh. And you bringing up the poster ad for Dypso that wasn't even written by Akira himself doesn't really give your argument much water.

Like he used his TK on kienzan right? or like he used on nails ki blast,or the spirit bomb or the nameks punch he totally just uses his Tk to brush attack aside(sarcasm he does not and will not)

He did it against Toppo's Hakai before getting overwhelmed.

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Plus if he could do it with his own energy attacks, and with lava, why not with a technique like Rasenshuriken? Even then, he doesn't need to redirect it, like I said before he could dodge it or shoot it down.

You have no idea what your talking about!!

If you skip the convo and filler he does this pretty soon after Sasuke gets there

Sealing? This was against an opponent they had tons of knowledge on and knew was immortal. Can you provide another example? The context in this one doesn't help you at all. Multiple people attempted to seal him knowing he was immortal and had regeneration making it impossible to put him down. Prior to that they engaged him physically.

We have a speed advantage a rasengan chidori combo kills frieza.A tsb which Frieza will likely touch also kills him

Why would rasengan and chidori kill Frieza? Piercing and Slashing attacks aren't as potent as you think they are against DB characters when early DB characters are bullet proof, and kid goku literally had a steel axe blade slammed on his head only to be broken. I think I mentioned this before.

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Rasengan is mostly concussive force, and doesn't have the power to harm Frieza. Why even bring it up?

And TSB is the only thing I cannot really completely dismiss admittedly, in all seriousness its a fair argument that it could work on Frieza, but Frieza isn't going to sit and take it.

  1. Your gonna have to prove that.
  2. Not really all he has is.Tk and energy projection you can not compare it to my team who have over 20 techniques each
  3. So he isn't thanks.
  4. Not when he is getting restrained by 25 wood clones,1000 shadow clones as well as 4 invisible limbo clones
  5. Gonna have to prove that.
  6. Yes he will or at the very least could with LS movement
  7. Not really

1. I did, your post didn't cover half of the things I said. Your Sasuke and Madara Sections barely touched on anything. For Strength I showed this:

So Frieza can muscle or blast his way out of it. With literally a wave of his hand he was able to destroy the small island and damage some of the surrounding ones.

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Anime Version: The shockwave spreads a lot farther, destroying nearby islands, and causing tsunamis a good distance across the planet, Piccolo was miles away from the fight, and he could feel the shockwave as well. Bulma meanwhile was also quite far and she was affected by the destruction. This attack affected the most of the planet. There was no indication that it was an energy attack asides from him powering up, which isn't enough considering he did a hand movement while doing so. IF it was a kiai or telekinesis that's still insanely impressive. Either way, Frieza has the offensive ability to break through your attacks or counter your attacks with his own without having to use energy attacks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Hxvzd0QmBA

And for speed, I brought up Goku dodging lightning as a child in the anime and the amount of scaling Goku went through.

2. Many of the techniques have no use in a battle of this tier. What are the team gonna take time to use summons?

3. Than what was the point of mentioning that he was smarter if you weren't going anywhere with the point? Me admitting he's smarter doesn't strengthen your point whatsoever.

4. Which would literally force him to use an AOE attack of a large scale WHICH IS WHAT YOUR TEAM WOULD WANT TO AVOID.(Especially since you focused a lot on character tendency arguments.)

5. What is there to prove? Lightning techniques? Fire Techniques? Why would lightning harm Frieza if he can survive a planetary explosion, the heat easily surpassing that of lightning? there isn't any "but you need feats for this specific ability" there is no "you lack evidence in this category" its honest to god common sense. Split durability(which is your only legitimate standing which makes this battle even somewhat fair and not a slaughter-fest that it actually is) does not matter at a certain point. If Frieza can survive the vacuum of space, meaning he would have to deal with space radiation, which already affects your body in several ways, if his race can survive being in contact with the sun that close without immediately dying due to the amount of radiation entering your body and destroying you on various levels including cellular,.(I say survived because Meta-Cooler is a thing, and that's literally just leftover parts of his body combined heavily with technology) I highly doubt Rasenshuriken would do a damn thing if the only thing it could accomplish was killing someone with inferior durability and who was basically an easy target. Amaratsu? It constantly burns, that's cool and it has some nice practical applications, but to what degree does it burn? Plus it can be dodged.

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Summoning Techniques? Encourages raw power, which destroys your team, meteors? clone swarms? Encourages raw power which destroys your team, Naruto himself has nothing asides from TSB. Your only argument thus far has been sealing, piercing/slashing attacks,(refer to my stance on split durability) and TSB.

6. Skipping this, we go over this several times throughout the posts. No need to be redundant.

7. I'll go your route and take that as a concession that your team gets one shotted by literally anything Frieza does.

Madara Counters:

He was FTE to Kami how exactly is that impressive to ftl characters.

Looking back on Kami's feats, seeing everything that happens on the planet all at once, is hard to quantify, so I'll drop it as a fea to scale from.

These feats are unquantifiable at best. why? Well you said a few seconds but that does not really tell me anything a few seconds could be 3 second-10 seconds-59 seconds.The number is very important and the number does not exist.

This is usually a copout, there was no indication a significant amount or even a relevant amount of time passed by for the feat in question otherwise there would be no doubt. Plus I already addressed this same type of argument on the OPM related thread, and you pretty much didn't respond, and just said everyone on that thread was wanking and kept mentioning how you debunked it in two CAVs. This was our discussion on the matter:

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Using this debate as an example, I'll compare it to Piccolo's moon busting.

https://youtu.be/oplcdcuMPMo?t=153

At best the beam took 3-4 seconds. That's still massively faster than lightning to an insane degree. The speed of lightning would take an hour to reach that distance, and we saw that Piccolo had to stop Gohan as soon as possible, before he destroyed the planet, so he did.....so we know he wasn't sitting there for 10 seconds, or 59 seconds. You legit cannot attempt to argue against an animated scene regarding time frame because its in your face. Its even worse for panel to panel transitions.

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Similar to the boros feat, there was no cutaway, no dramatic dragged out scene that lasts seconds longer than it should or 5 minutes to be specific.(in this particular example, in the manga it took Goku at best a minute or two, probably less, in the anime it took way longer.) There was no transition to give us an idea on how long it was taking.(like say for example an imaginary scenario: while Piccolo's blast is going towards the moon we see Ape Gohan looking at Piccolo and rushing towards him) With no indicators or background movement or interactions we can only assumed that what happened, occurred in a short period of time based off our own inferences and interpretation.

For example, Goku's arrival to fight Vegeta was always commonly used as a feat to argue light speed or close to it, but it was debunked because of LEGIT lack of time frame and a confirmed distance.

This feat has cutaways, transitions, things are happening as we see Goku traveling. We do not know what's going on fully.

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In between Scan 2 and 4, we see Vegeta and Frieza's positions change. Meaning something happened. From this you can definitely argue that this feat lacks a time frame and that it needs one to determine how fast Goku moved.

But the moon feat? Literally nothing happened, the boros example from our previous conversation? Virtually nothing happened.

There is no reason to vehemently look for a time frame when its not needed.

And my thing about it is, there are sooo many examples of Ki blasts reaching this speed, that it shouldn't be so far fetched. And there are examples of light speed sprinkled here and there.

Broly destroying a far off planet with a casual ki blast.

Family Kamehameha Pushing Broly to the sun.

Barry Kahn(some human being possessed by an alien) shot gohan with laser eyes that sent him flying almost outside of the atmosphere

Buu and Babidi, systematically destroying planets and galaxies throughout the universe.

Frieza's energy blast crossing interplanetary distances.

Champa's Energy Blasts, keeping up with Beerus' movement/travel speed and following him to a distant planet.

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There's also Broly's feat of systematically wrecking the south galaxy. And there's no way to debunk that, either Broly's blasts were reaching each planet at insane speeds, or Broly was going to each solar system, each planet, and each star, and destroying them, which is impressive because King Kai just noticed the South Galaxy was being destroyed. We know the timeframe in that instant. So broly is guaranteed light speed or he one shotted south galaxy which we know isn't true. So light speed is indeed possible.

Cell,Broly and Goku are light years ahead of Frieza so if they are only LS(You admitted this) then Frieza should be significantly slower.I still have no idea why you would even bring up beerus and champa.

You're thinking too hard. I mentioned them as examples similar to why I mentioned Dypso. And I have the feeling the voters knew that as well.

Yeah there is no way Frieza is "Massively" faster at best he is a bit slower.

If that's the case he isn't getting blitzed..... he was majorly slower than characters like Jiren

He did not use Izanagi because he was immortal the only reason i brought it up is because you wanted to nerf immortality,though only a large scale aoe blast can counter his regen.

But he only used it in a flashback, what guarantee is there he would use it in a fight? When he never has? Every ability you and me argued so far, excluding Izanagi, were all abilities that were used in combat at least once or twice.

Tanked naruto's Magma Rasenshuriken and survived being cut in half by Sasuke then proceeds to regenerate.

Another great feat is when here regenerates half of his body(Note this is before he absorbed the God tree which is what gave his immortality and heightened his regen)So yeah the only way to beat Madara is if you Destroy his whole body,unfortunately for you he has 2 eyes he can use izanagi with he also has his 3rd eye that he may be able to use it to so yeah your gonna have to kill him 3 or 4 times.So yeah here's the feat....

Can you show the scans for the amount of time it took him to regenerate?

I wouldn't say that. Think of Madara like Ban or Deadpool, the more damage he accumulates, the easier he is to beat. If Madara has no arms, or legs for example, do you think he would be as much of a threat? If Madara was cut in half, do you think he would still blitz Frieza easily?

I see what your doing here and i have to put a stop to it.You can NOT keep saying his durability is to high so an attack will not affect him you have to show feats so can i have molecular and cellular durability feats for Namek Frieza while your at it can i have some piercing durability feats for Frieza as the last time he was hit by a cutting attack he did not have torso

Can you please stop picking and choosing what portion of each respond to reply to? Anyway, I already went over the Rasenshuriken, and in all honesty, it realistically isn't working. TSB, although based off statements and hype, I admittedly have no argument for it asides from redirecting it and countering it with Frieza's own attacks, so i'll concede on that and drop it.

He was cut by his own version of the destructo disk, and Frieza is far more powerful than Krillin who's DD cut a mountain/hill in half.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNWX7NQ85SQ

And this was when he was severely weakened, and battered, was low on ki.

Sasuke has a six paths Rinnegan and Naruto has Six paths sage mode Naruto could "feel them"Sasuke can see them

Feel them in what sense? Because if the Limbo Clones interact with the "dimension" Frieza resides in, then they can be sensed by Frieza just by how they interact with the air currents.

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If they can physically touch Frieza, they can physically "touch" the air. Meaning they can be sensed.

Yes he literally starts with it in every match(uses it to stomp the biju and co, he also uses it to hold off naruto and sasuke whilst prepping IT)

He uses it primarily to defend. But even if he uses them to attempt to overwhelm Frieza, that would encourage him to go all out with his destructive attacks which isn't what you would want....

The limbos as well as Naruto and Sasuke will fight him in CQC the meteor is just a distraction.

Can i have some feats for the fodder that he one shot.Did it help against Goku or Jiren or Dyspo or you know every other fight he had since then.

Okay??? Then he blasts all of them at once. GG.

Jiren was way too powerful to bother using the technique on, and Dypso was too fast to tag, also, the fodder were assassins working directly under the God Of Destruction. Can i have some feats of the extent of cellular or molecular destruction for Rasenshuriken and TSB?

Yeah i'm not sure what your tryna say here if its that souls steal wont work you mistaken.His soul not being"cleansed"has absolutely nothing to do with it being stolen all together.

His soul would have to be forcefully removed from hell, cleansed and manipulated, and forced into a new body. Its the same. Plus he never uses it. His memories would have to be wiped as well.

Sasuke:

No he cant he has never broke out of a attack of this scale meaning he can not break out.

Why?? What is stopping him? Whether its telekinesis or energy, or simply powering up, there is no reason why this should restrain him....Vegeta shook the planet and changed the weather just by powering up.

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I don't get it. If he can stop someone else' telekinesis why can't he stop theirs? There's no real reason why he couldn't. They never restrained someone with Frieza's level of strength or raw power, so I could counter by simply saying that. Your argument takes you nowhere.

The only reason i did not make it a Sasuke vs Frieza CAV is because it has already been done also i said he could solo.

Then there wasn't much point to this CAV, considering your beliefs, we legit could have done Buu vs Sasuke instead. Would have been far more interesting than this.(I accepted because I wanted to do my own take on this and I initially thought we were doing specifically sasuke vs frieza)

What are you talking about i am the only one that's been nerfed.you have nerfed Genjutsu and you wanted to nerf Limbo heck we even nerfed BFR.Your the one who has been amped as i have given you the following

  • Dbs skill feats
  • Mecha frieza feats

The only thing i have "Nerfed" is Planet busting and that is for obvious reasons

Frieza is heavily reduced to Mecha Frieza level, is not allowed to planet bust and this fight is a 3v1, when you personally believe any of your characters can solo and blitz. You even attempted to have Frieza in his first form.

If you were worried about them not breathing in space, make the planet indestructible.

Anyway, at this point we are arguing about things that don't matter.

Other Counters

Our TK is a lot different we push with are TK Frieza uses it differently he only uses it in his final form(even then its rare)so ti will be a end game technique

He's in his final form here....plus he uses telekinesis all the time, in fact out of all characters, he uses it the most. He started off with it against Caufila

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He used it against Goku as I previously shown, and he used it against Jiren

https://youtu.be/DFBiIrW4S_0?t=99

Still a hill.

Still shattered by shockwaves from a significant distance in the air. You didn't show anything to compare.....

Can i have a scan of the shrapnel flying at him he was almost died btw.So yeah i'm gonna need those feats btw.

......do you know what shrpanel is? Did you even understand what I was saying? Let me break it down for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92uetQySi2U

0:17, as Frieza is destroying the earth, you can see the rocks, and the mountains lifting up, expanding as the planet is about to explode, 0:49-0:57, you can see rocks, flying off, and after the explosion you can see rocks remaining. Meaning that was sent flying during the explosion.

Here is King Vegeta destroying planets, same thing I described

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHLfhI0H_GA

Here's another example from star wars

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HmWDdmTAE8

2:08-2:12

You can see the planet shattering and expanding, and the rocks and continents shaving off the planet and being scattered by the explosion.

Here's another example from star wars

https://youtu.be/p0qLzsIhUMk?t=127

2:07 Same thing I described from the previous video.

Here's an example from one of the superman films

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbMHVjv247Y

3:00 till 3:22

Ignoring even that detail, energy durability nor slashing and piercing durability doesn't mean much when that much force can barely scratch you. If you want to boost your claim, give me an idea on the level of cutting efficiency your characters have.

Can i have a scan of the shrapnel flying at him he was almost died btw.So yeah i'm gonna need those feats btw.

As for molecular and cellular damage, yes the burden of proof is on me in that regard,

Great soo where are those feats.

although I have presented my case,

What case have you presented im still waiting for those scans.

jus I will also argue that you would also have to show some form of evidence.

What more evidence can i show you? Were the scans not enough?!

to imply it is dangerous to Frieza?

NO! I am not gonna let you do this to me show me my scans or concede the point simple as that.

My argument is that your attacks are NLFs per se,

This is a message to the voters what Death is trying to is cover up for the fact he has no feats to suggest Frieza can defend against certain types of attacks so he is saying that it is a NLF.Laughable.

not like it kills the target, Kakazu was defeated and still conscious,

The move literally Killed Kaka\u twice but again nice try.

You literally made your section so much longer and harder to reply to just by splitting up my response into so many incomplete sentences, and all of your replies to them are exactly the same......

Anyway, looking back on it, I didn't understand where you were going with the ability, the reason why I say its a NLF, is because there are no feats for the particular abilities. You say the Rasenshuriken operates on a cellular level, who was the strongest person it killed? Who was it the most effective on and why was that person impressive? Literally the only one it "killed" was kakazu and the pains. Which isn't impressive at all. The cellular damage itself is dangerous but limited, it isn't impressive. The tougher the body, the tougher the cells, its a scientifically proven fact. Exposing your body to stressors makes you more resistant to cellular damage(like aging and disease) in the first place. Anyway that's a side tangent, and before you split up this paragraph to conveniently make your post seem longer and more convincing, I'm not using that as a defense. All I'm saying, is you did not touch on the rasenshuriken's cellular damage(and this is important, because just saying it attacks all cells on the body doesn't tell me a damn thing) whatsoever. And I did, and its not impressive.

For example, here's a cell manipulation feat from Lucy, from Elfen Lied; she utilized her powers to connect cells, in order to heal wounds.

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Here's one in Naruto where Jugo combines his flesh with Sasuke in order to heal tissue damage sasuke received in his fight with Bee

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Toriko, is another example, of celluar attacks that rain supreme

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Ditto from Pokemon can rearrange his cells to transform into any pokemon, and match its stats, powers and skills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhKCsy8959I

Now that you have an idea, on what cell manipulation is, lets look back on what Rasenshuriken did to Naruto

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyewB1exEZ8&t=36s

Nerve Damage. That's it. It caused major cellular damage to the nerves, which is part of what immobilized Kakazu asides from the overwhelming force.

Cellular damage in general, after looking back on it, and reviewing it, isn't that impressive, at least not in the context of Naruto himself.

Viruses and Diseases also cause cellular damage, Radiation to the body can cause cellular damage. And Frieza has the capacity to handle both. Powerful races such as the Saiyans and The Frost Demons(who can evolve themselves, which would require the manipulation of one's cells anyway) are too powerful for the planet wiping bio-weaponized virus called the Extinction Bomb

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To confirm, Jaco has made the mistake of accidentally wiping out an entire race with the capsule

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And he has confirmed that the saiyans are a race too powerful and hardy for the virus to work on.

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The Galatic Patrol always try to resort to the easiest way to handling the situation,(they knew the Frieza Family were conquering Universe 7) so if it wouldn't work on the saiyans who are biologically on the cellular level inferior,(they cannot transform, they cannot regenerate by transforming, and Frieza and King Cold are considered Mutants among their kind according to Akira Toriyama) then it shouldn't work on Frieza or they already tried to do so.(which would explain the attempted assassination of Goku) Also Jaco has stated the galactic patrol are wary of Frieza as well.(always keeping tabs on Frieza and his empire and doing research) Freeza can resist space radiation, Cooler, his brother survived being blown apart by a supernova, and the radiation didn't rot his remains and kill him, and similarly tiered races like the Saiyans can easily survive something like the extinction bomb which is designed to be a planetary bio-hazard to an entire species.

Frieza AT THE VERY LEAST can resist the Rasenshuriken, and that's being extremely generous.

The move literally Killed Kaka\u twice but again nice try.

His hearts(which needed to be shattered to kill him) were literally open targets, not protected by anything and were outside his body. Plus his durability is not even close to Frieza's, neither is his biological constitution.

  1. It says through repeated battles he has surpassed speed of sound and light that means they have just surpassed light it's pretty simple.
  2. When does it say he can amp himself thousands of times

1. Repeated Battles implies, he gained the speed boosts from past battles. PAST. Repeat is being used in the past tense..... Where the hell do you get "just" implying now? Unless you are implying he JUST surpassed the speed of sound as well, as if that's impressive, even though the series surpassed that level of speed over 500 chapters and some couple hundred episodes and movies ago. The statement will always be vague and can always be interpreted as being used in the past tense because grammatically speaking IT IS in the past tense. There is no way around this. And he surpassed that speed by an unspecified amount too so that doesn't help either.

2......With his main technique the light bullet? It will be easier if I just linked you the episode and guide you through it.

https://www.watchcartoononline.io/dragon-ball-super-episode-104-english-subbed

The fight starts at 4:22, you can watch it from there if you want, but lets focus on 7:35 to 8:10. He says it right then and there. When he uses this technique, almost nobody excluding the angels, could even see the technique.(the GoDs all have MFTL speeds) Goku and Hit spent the entire time simply reading his movements in order to react and counter.

There's this technique and there's his super maximum light speed mode...... BTW the actual name of this technique is called Super Highest Speed Mode, in Japanese.....not Maximum Light Speed Mode....

-Insert irrelevant image not written by Akira Toriyama

What's next? Goku is lower than mid-tier because he could hit someone with stated (and iron skin is in his fighting arena name) Iron Skin and not one shot them? Even though Ki amplifies stats including resistance and toughness?

No i am not i am working with on panel feats you are working against on panel feats and guides as well as doing a poor job at scaling.

.....I think its pretty straight forward. The Return Stroke of Lightning(which is Mach 286K) is three times slower than the speed of light. and the initial bolt(Around Mach 300) is 3000 times slower. You mean to tell me that with all the speed progression leading up to the Buu Saga, that its 100 percent impossible for the feats I presented to be a reliable in proving these characters are indeed light speed? At the end of the day, say what you want about multipliers, I don't like them either, and scaling can get cancerous and annoying, even for me, which is why I'm not bothering scan dumping to prove this point, but scaling and ABC logic is a thing. Its a irrefutible fact that Character A surpassed character B who surpassed character C who performed this feat. Its fact and law in the universe in DB that these things happen. So if Goku as a child prior to growing up as a teen and fighting Piccolo Jr. for the first time, could react to lightning, surpass that speed in his training, gets blitzed by Raditz after doing more training, then trains some more and beats someone faster than him and uses kaioken to blitz someone faster than that person, then etc. etc. then you get an endless cycle, that with a tiny, and very miniscule amount of math, will get you to the end that DB fans look for desperately, EVENTUALLY.

TLDR version: since you like to split up my paragraphs; The characters surpass the speed of lightning, with the various times the characters boosted up in power, they would have had to eventually reached the speed of light or somewhere near it. Even if that's not the case, the feats I presented should supplement my argument regardless, its up to you and the voters on whether or not you think they are credible.

Naruto and Sasuke are FTL as Naruto dogged light and Sasuke blitzed him

Also further proof that Frieza is not LS is the fact that he could not dogge the solar flare.

The solar flare is just a light based attack

Goku reacted to a technique described as a flash of light, and got blitzed by Frieza. Simple, and no random guide not written by Akira himself is going to change that.

This is literally the worst argument used to attempt to debunk light speed and I mean that in a general sense, because the person in question would still have to perceive the light, and if they perceive the light, then they get blinded. Being faster than light would not protect you from the blinding effects of light. If someone tried to make superman deaf, shouldn't he be fast enough to avoid it simply because he's faster than sound? Of course not, he has super hearing, he can still freaking hear. That's so stupid.(not calling you stupid, I just thought this was the perfect opportunity to use this clip) I'm faster than light, so that now protects me from the weakness of sight?

He cant he will be impaled by a chakra rod or held off by 4 invisible undetectable Limbo clones

But that wouldn't stop him from attacking and retaliating whatsoever if he could fire off energy attacks while cut in half....

Naruto and Sasuke have teamed together multiple times but let me give ya some links

That's not what I asked for or mentioned. I said you didnt once elaborate on strategy.

Stop trying to subvert my attention show me my fucking feats or concede.

Stop splitting my paragraphs and only responding to one SPECIFIC sentence to make it seem like you are actually countering something and accomplishing something, it makes your post longer and harder to go through for both me and the voters.

Feats for the grim reaper?The two moves are different my one has better feats

Stop reaching for straws, you're asking for feats for the person who controls life and death in the universe and guides souls to heaven and hell and can grant access to said domains.(And can reincarnate souls. He's the closest thing to a god in the series) Legit I am not going back and forth about something so absurdly trivial. If you are so confident in your characters,(considering you think any of them could solo) just drop this and leave it to the voters to decide on whether or not what I presented is good enough. Take what I just said as a concession or as me ending the convo(you will likely do the former) I don't care.

Lol it is there to keep you in are range though Limbo clones does that as well.

Regarding Shinrei Tensei, you have no feats for it, and theres no reason why Frieza cant break out

1.Kakazu was literally killed twice stop lying.

The raikage was a immortal zombie(Edo tensei).You get it now

1. And? You give a cockroach two hearts, will that prevent it from being squished by overwhelming force? His hearts were on display and target practice and were not protected at all.

2. They wouldn't put so much emphasis on his durability if that's the case. Nor would Naruto go out of his way to stab him in the exact scar that killed him.(which significantly slowed him down enough for the sealing team to capture him.)

Why the fuck would he be familiar with a attack he has never seen before?!

I don't understand what you're trying to say. You admit that he would underestimate my team which is all my team needs to kill the Bastard with a tsb one shot or a chidori one shots or a rasenshuriken one shot.

Let me start over and rephrase what I was saying. The reason why I can see Frieza getting tagged by the magnet release on purpose is because of the toppo incident. If naruto started off with rasengan and it failed to work and decided to use the magnet release version, Frieza might think the attack would look familiar and try to tank it.(unless he picked up on the fact that the technique is completely different.)

That's the only scenario I can imagine him purposely going out of his way to simply tank it.

Show me some lightning resistance feats or concede he has none. He get killed by the electric shock,if you disagree show me some feats.

But its oddly specific for the tier, which is why I didn't think I would have to bother. Goku as a kid lasted a good bit against an electric shock technique from Roshi.

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And in his ape form, which he has surpassed in resistance and in overall power, he broke out of it and shrugged it off.

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And as a kid, Goku took multiple lightning bolts in the episode Quicker Than lightning Dragon Ball Season 5 Episode 127

If that's not enough I don't know what to tell you, especially because even without these feats to scale on electric shocks from sasuke shouldn't do a damn thing to someone of his physiology. You seem to just be grasping for straws at this point, so I'll let the voters decide if electricity would be enough to hurt Frieza.

Both these characters are stronger then Frieza and both are non cannon movie characters.

Examples dude. Examples.

How is a author statement a cop out?

Wasn't written by Akira, and it doesn't discredit anything shown so far, if anything it just contradicts it.

Final Counters: Wrapping up the debate.

Are you trying to say split durability is not a thing if you are then i think a certain man(Akira toriyama) may disagree

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw9oX-kZ_9k

First example you presented was trunks. Trunks was so much more powerful than Frieza. That's why that happened. The difference in power was so great that he not only caught Frieza's strongest technique which was used to destroy planet Vegeta. But completely outpaced the explosion, and Frieza couldn't even tell he escaped. Trunks then launches a blast a Frieza, forces him on the defense then blitzes him and proceeds to kill him. He sliced up his entire body including the alien technology that was keeping him functioning.

In the manga, he completely outpaced Frieza in speed. Easily dodging one of his energy blasts to the point of evading his sight.(neither cold or frieza saw him move and after the blast assumed he got vaporized.)

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King Cold trying to contain the situation, took Trunks sword and attempted to kill him with it, assuming and claiming that was the reason he could kill Frieza. Trunks easily catches it barehanded, and overpowers him proving the sword has no special properties, and proving that it was his own power that killed him.

As for the Kiezan and the Death Saucer, both are the most effective cutting techniques in the verse. I don't really see your point. Plus Krillin has more raw power and DC than any of your characters scaling wise, so he would definitely be in the position to perform that feat because he could put more power into the technique. Frieza himself is several times more powerful, so that says something as well in his case. Not really sure how techniques that are used by characters more powerful than yours really help your case.

Great we agree Frieza get sealed or atomized or chopped in half

Not sure how you got that but nothing else, but okay.

Yes so if Amaterasu was to hit Friezas head he dies simple as that as it does not stop burning until the object is no more.

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Amaterasu doesn't have the level of heat necessary to kill Frieza...so what would it do exactly? if you put my hand in a bucket of cold water, for an hour, would my hand fall off? I'd ask the same question for a campfire,(lets assume the fire is contained to my hand) sure the latter would be quite painful but it wouldn't be enough to disinigrate and turn my hand to complete ash. It would only be heavily charred and that's about it. Where am I getting at here? Oh right, Amaterasu doesn't compare to the heat and energy of the attacks Frieza has dealt with, on top of surviving a planet's explosion, so what exactly would you accomplish? Plus he has mostly gone for body shots(which would make more sense since it would spread equally across the body making it much harder to get rid of instead of just the head where one could focus all attention to.) Plus it has been proven that the technique can be either dodged, like i showed above, or pushed away with force like Nagato did.

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Why not? Still waiting for those feats.

Infact even you yourself Believe that if a certain character lacks feats in a certain category then they can not counter it.

Just so the voters know the same feats death says goku lacks(Frieza's superior) Frieza also lacks so there's that lol.

The extent of the Rasenshuriken damage is Nerve damage according to Tsunade. If Raikage was durable enough to tank with his only feats being surviving teleportation and forcing a draw with the Eight Tails. Then Frieza can do the same. Show me feats for Kakazu's durability.

That was on a thread several months ago, my views change. Plus In that same thread I still mentioned that final form Frieza wouldn't be beaten. And that first form frieza wouldn't be resilient enough to survive the hax we discussed on that thread.

Goku has a different biology from Frieza....its actually a given. Goku wouldn't survive in a vacuum and if he cannot breathe or function properly then he cannot use ki to amplify his breathing and other functions, and his overall physical stats, and if he cannot do that, then the explosion from the planet would vaporize him. Frieza doesn't need that. He is naturally more durable than most characters. He was knocked unconscious, has taken several attacks one of them included a spirit bomb which almost endangered the planet, yet his body was mostly unscathed by the explosion of planet namek. According to Akira Toriyama, Frieza and his family(Cold and Cooler) are considered mutants among their race.

Question: About how many of Freeza’s race are there? Are they quite thriving, with a big population?

Freeza is what you might call a mutated life-form. Strictly speaking, Freeza’s father is a mutant with an abnormally high battle power. And, born from his father alone4, still in strong possession of the mutant traits, was Freeza.

Accordingly, even saying “Freeza’s race”, these two are the only ones who possess an abnormal [level of] battle power and cruelty.-Akira Toriyama

You bringing up past arguments on a thread irrelevant to this one won't strengthen your arguments whatsoever. When I did it earlier in this post it was to use as an example for the point i was making regarding time frames. In your case, you used it to strengthen an already weak foundation to your posts so far. After looking deeper into the series, If Frieza can survive the vacuum of space,(he has traveled to other planets as well meaning he's been in several different climates, and space is filled with radiation which would decay, rot, and destroy the human body) his brother, who isn't much stronger than he is or different in biology can survive a supernova without the radiation seeping into the remains of his body and killing him and a race in the same tier but lower than them in terms of evolutionary class and biology can survive poisons and were stated to be too powerful for a bio-weapon that can wipe out the population of an entire planet, why would the rasenshurken, specifically work? There has been no indication that anyone died to the cellular damage of the technique. Which i limited in scope anyway.

I love how you say it wont work on frieza yet previously stated these same attacks could work on anyone in DBZ

On a thread that has no bearing to this. And in my previous posts I honestly wasn't trying. I didn't bother doing research, and in most standard battles, DBZ characters usually only have manga feats no anime/movie feats. Is this part of your argument? Its cheap, low and pointless. Also notice how I separated Frieza from the rest of the crowd and mentioned his durability?

How many times do i need to debunk this it literally killed Kakuzu twice and it was 6 transformations ago

But yet his body was still intact.... and yet Kakazu was still living.....do you know what cellular damage is?

It would kill him because he lacks feats and the thing is i know you yourself agree.

I didn't look into it, because I completely forgot what cellular damage entails. Then when I looked into what cellular damage was, I looked into the Rasenshuriken itself and compared it to various cellular attacks in fiction and its honestly not impressive. The extent of Kakazu's damage wasn't impressive.

Raikage was a edo tensei(immortal zombie) Frieza is a mortal who lacks feats and i know you agree.

....Okay and? There is a limit to the regeneration. Naruto proved this chapters earlier against another kage level opponent who was also an edo tensei zombie.

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This proves when enough damage is done, the regeneration will weaken. Further proof? Look no further than the fight with the 3rd Raikage.

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Obviously the regen still kicks in whenever a edo tensei zombie takes damage, are you saying the Raikage couldn't have tanked that without the regen? Obviously that isn't the case. The technique itself had too many attacks going at once so it would have overwhelmed the edo tensei just like Naruto's Planetary Rasengan did to Muu(who isn't known for his durability) if Raikage wasn't durable enough.

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But it didn't.....

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If he tanked it only because of his edo tensei condition, they wouldn't have put so much emphasis on his durability throughout the entire fight. Even mentioning the fact that he goes toe to toe with Bijuu's.

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I am arguing the cellular damage will outright kill the bastard.

Okay describe it to me in detail. Give me all the juicy details on what it will do to Frieza's body. Plus, the blades have to bypass his skin first. If the only person it did major damage of note was Kakuzu, then you don't have much of a case.

Are standard attacks are Magnet Rasengan(sealing) and chidori enhanced sword(piercing) two things Frieza has no counter to.

Naruto and Sasuke only started off with sealing because the situation called for it, and because both Sasuke and Naruto knew they were fighting an immortal enemy with regenerative abilities.

Naruto and Sasuke have a nigh telepathic connection Madara is support

Still doesn't change the fact, that the last time they saw each other they were at each others throats, what guarantee that in a random encounter, that those three would work together? if anything it would just turn into a free for all.

This only goes to prove my point the fact that after Vegeta countering him in base,Krllin chopping off his tail here he still did not one shot.

Here are some more examples of Frieza being cocky.

Example A

Example B

Example C

Except that Krillin and Vegeta were not threats, and he assessed that. He was never put in a situation once where he would have to actually go all out. Even when he went final form he did not use 5 percent of his power. They could not force him to at all. If your characters have the resources necessary to overwhelm Frieza like you claim, he wont hold back.

In both example A and C, Gohan received unexpected power bursts that allowed him to blitz Frieza unexpectantly.(and he shrugged off both) In example A specifically, he was stalling for time for Goku. Example B, similar to a lot of the situations he has been put in he assessed him as a weakling(he was observing all the fighters, including the saiyans during the TOP)

There is nothing to interpret it's all there in black and white Dyspo is only just lightspeed the Narrator the characters and the guides tell us that.

But not only does that contradict everything that has ever happened in the DB franchise, but that contradicts what was said in the DBS anime. Dyspo was stated to surpass the speed of light in the past(hence the word repeated battles) but this guide says he's only light speed. Where is this guide even from BTW?

To finally conclude this climatic debate.

1. Character Tendencies won't mean much if the characters coming at Frieza are according to you a bit faster or fast enough to pressure Frieza, let alone overwhelm him with high scale attacks like Chibaku Tensei, or Meteor attacks, or clone swarms. Even if you wanted to argue Frieza won't use any of his versatile ki moves to make things interesting, brute force and raw power is all that is needed and any attempt to overwhelm him will force him to use it.

2. The Rasenshuriken, after long thought, shouldn't work on Frieza, the TSB at best Frieza could redirect it or counter it, but not tank it at his current levels. Everything i mentioned in that regard was admittedly a stretch even with skill feats. That I can concede on.

3. Literally the only ground you have to stand on is lowballing the DB franchise by using some guide out of nowhere that contradicts the actual source material and by bringing up old battle threads that don't pertain to this debate.

4. Finally, maneuvers like sealing will not be used at the start of a battle with no knowledge on the enemy, on top of the fact that, Madara would have no real reason to work with Naruto and Sasuke, when he could just have them fight Frieza themselves, and turn the battle into a free for all.

I thought I would have more to say, but I guess not. With that, I close my post.I now realize I hate debating for any character that isn't past the cell saga lol. Thanks for the debate

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#145 Posted by DeathHero61 (18870 posts) - - Show Bio

I still have a little bit to do, maybe clean up the post a bit, i definitely want to reorganize the last bit of the post. Don't post yet. I'll let you know when.

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#146 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7530 posts) - - Show Bio
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#147 Edited by santinia1 (15 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

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#148 Posted by deactivated-5bb52f8f25413 (7026 posts) - - Show Bio

T4v pls

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#149 Posted by DeathHero61 (18870 posts) - - Show Bio
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#150 Posted by DeathHero61 (18870 posts) - - Show Bio