Naruto Runs The DBZ Gauntlet

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LimitlessSigil

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Poll Naruto Runs The DBZ Gauntlet (116 votes)

Doesn't get past round 1 32%
Stops at round 2 7%
Stops at round 3 11%
Stops at round 4 6%
Stops at round 5 10%
Stops at round 6 9%
Stops at round 7 3%
Stops at round 8 3%
Stops at round 9 2%
Stops at round 10 1%
Stops at round 11 2%
Stops at round 12 3%
Stops at round 13 1%
Stops at round 14 1%
Stops at round 15 0%
Stops at round 16 1%
Stops at round 17 0%
Stops at round 18 1%
Stops at round 19 1%
Clears 8%
No Caption Provided

Rules

Current Adult Naruto

Everyone is in character but determined to win

Everyone has access to all of their respective canon forms and abilities

Location

Empty Earth with no other Humans on it at all
Empty Earth with no other Humans on it at all

Round 1

Krillin during his fight with Nappa/Saiyan Saga
Krillin during his fight with Nappa/Saiyan Saga

Round 2

Gohan Permanently Enraged During His Fight With Nappa
Gohan Permanently Enraged During His Fight With Nappa

Round 3

Piccolo Saiyan Saga
Piccolo Saiyan Saga

Round 4

No Caption Provided

Round 5

Saiyan Saga Goku Limited to Kaioken X2
Saiyan Saga Goku Limited to Kaioken X2

Round 6

No Caption Provided

Round 7

Saiyan Saga Goku Can Use Kaioken X4
Saiyan Saga Goku Can Use Kaioken X4

Round 8

Ginyu Fight Vegeta Perfect Health No Injuries
Ginyu Fight Vegeta Perfect Health No Injuries

Round 9

Arrival at Namek Goku Limited To Base
Arrival at Namek Goku Limited To Base

Round 10

Captain Ginyu
Captain Ginyu

Round 11

Namek Saga Goku Kaioken X2
Namek Saga Goku Kaioken X2

Round 12

First Form Frieza
First Form Frieza

Round 13

Second Form Frieza
Second Form Frieza

Round 14

Base Goku Frieza Fight
Base Goku Frieza Fight

Round 15

Goku Kaioken X10 Frieza Fight
Goku Kaioken X10 Frieza Fight

Round 16

Goku Kaioken X20 Frieza Fight
Goku Kaioken X20 Frieza Fight

Round 17

100% Final Form Frieza
100% Final Form Frieza

Round 18

Namek Saga SSJ Goku
Namek Saga SSJ Goku

Round 19

Android 17 From Android Saga
Android 17 From Android Saga

Round 20

Super Perfect Cell
Super Perfect Cell

How far does he go and Why?

Bonus

Naruto Runs the Gauntlet with Current Adult Sasuke

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Karkus

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@alextheboss:

Was that the same day Piccolo blew up the moon?

They sensed his PL during the day time, so at least 12 hours after. We know it took place after the moon busting incident though, as it's the chapter after.

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alextheboss

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@karkus: Ok, I would still assume his attack would have a power level at least in the high hundreds though, due to him being tired and when Goku used the kamehameha his power level was 924 but he didn't seem noticeably tired after, so I could see it being anywhere from 500-1,200.

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TheWatcherKing

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Am I missing something? Based on what I have seen from Naruto he has no chance of beating namek saga Vegeta or anyone higher, I could be wrong though.

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DemonGod_PABLO

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Just to put into prospect how large the DC disparity is

Piccolo had a power level of roughly 408 when he could moon bust with low-mid difficultly. Raditz had a PL of 1000 and nappa had a power level of 4000 lol. Also saiyan saga characters should range to MHS+ to relativistic in combat speed. Naruto won’t make it far

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Easternwind

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@alextheboss:

@alextheboss:

Ok, here is the featwise progression of physical striking/strength feats

When I said sure I was saying sure I can show you a striking feat. You are showing damage to the environment. But Dragonball Z characters control their Ki. You are deliberately ignoring feats against characters.

That is physicals vs physicals, and Nappa charged up his ki into his fist.

They always use Ki in their attacks. That was just an example anyway, I could have used any other punch. How about Frieza ripping the Arm off of someone who can tank small planet level attacks?

Superman has variable durability with different writers for almost every comic. He is not a good example, just like with Super having a bunch of different writers isn't a good example. The dragon ball manga is written by one person, and the characters are consistently not as strong physically as they are ki wise.

You are being pedantic. Every series is like that. In almost every series with planet level characters, they are hurt by attacks which are no where near planet level AOE. Potency.

To be fare the version of Piccolo the blew up the moon should be a bit stronger than the one that fought Raditz, and we already know Piccolo could raise his power level to over 1,300 in the Raditz fight, but I agree his ki blast that blew up the moon wasn't as strong as the special beam canon, so I would say a power level of 1,000 is pretty fare. Just in general saiyan saga characters are moon level, with the stronger moves being moon+, and the strongest move in the arc being possible Earth level.

My point is that Piccolo’s feat is Small Planet level. He completely dusted the moon off the screen.

No, it is not hax and anyone can learn it. It is just a regular concentrated ki disc. It is just sharp enough to pierce their ki defense and body.

It’s sharpness is the point though. It is a special tech.

Yes, but with his clones, substitution, speed, and pre cog, Naruto would have a high chance of beating someone like Krillin before they could land a hit on him. I never said a ki blast from Krillin didn't have a good chance of piercing Naruto. He would have to concentrate all of his chakra into his hand to deflect it like he did with Toneri to do that, if the ki blast just hit his body it would likely go through.

Eh, Maybe. Krillin has much better durability and spammability though.

Ya, and I'm not saying Piccolo's blast didn't reach relativistic speed, I'm saying Piccolo can't move his body that fast. Madara's light fang is light speed, and Toneri's golden wheel is likely relativistic, yet I don't think either of them has movement speeds of that level.

If you want to give saiyan saga characters relativistic reaction speed due to dodging ki blasts, I'm fine with that, I'm saying they don't move their actually move their body that fast consistently in battle.

So do I think Krillin could dodge Toneri's golden wheel? Sure, that seams reasonable, but Krillin can't actually outrun or outfly it, he would have to step out of the way.

Dragonball characters have shown on multiple occasions to be able to react to and keep pace with their Ki attacks.

I actually am fine with Relativistic-Lightspeed Naruto/Madara/God Tiers based on Light Fang, Gai, and Toneri, but I know a lot of people don’t accept that.

The dragonball feat is a lot more solid though.

I don’t think Krillin could blitz Naruto or vice versa, I would say they are around the same speed.

I guess you could call it reaction speed for both of them, But I think both Naruto and Krillin have shown they can move their bodies that fast, at least for short periods of time.

Depends on the scene, for example do you really take Goku going to the moon on his power pole seriously?

I don’t see how that relates tbh. Early DB was very gag centric, however, unlike many others I have actually advocated using that as a legit feat.

My point is that we don’t take things like air resistance and stuff like inverse square laws into account, just basic calcs.

I actually love using science when needed. If you ever need a feat calced. Let me know.

That makes sense, but what I'm saying here is that Toriyama consistently shows his characters at a speed lower than light. The only near light speed feats in the original manga are ki blasts in space and Gotenk's traveling around the planet really fast. I would really not even be surprised if Toriyama wasn't even thinking about speed when he drew Piccolo blowing up the moon, he just thought it would be cool and make sense plot wise and put it in. Chances are he wasn't "I'll make it happen in one panel so they know that's how fast they are now". However we do know he was directly thinking about speed when he had traveling 10,000 km and back in a second be proof of teleportation and not super speed. So that would mean base Goku post namek saga at the very least can't fly at light speed. And I think it's kind of silly to say that BOZ Piccolo fights at a higher speed than post namek Saga Goku can fly. There are a few other direct speed/distance statements that back this up as well.

I think a lot of this comes down to how hard it can be to show high levels of speed.

Almost EVERY series with light speed characters gets that speed from space feats.

Again, Travel Speed isn’t on par with their Ki blasts, but their short burst movement should be. I don’t think it is silly for BOZ Piccolo to fight faster than Goku can fly.

It isn’t just the moon feat, there are a few other relativistic feats.

Often authors don’t “think” about feats. An author may not realize how powerful or fast a feat they wrote is, but we still use them.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/battle-power/databook/

"He has become even more powerful now that he has his youth restored. Easily capable of blowing away a city, his power rivals that of a small nuclear bomb."

Hmm, that definitely lends toward Roshi’s bust being an outlier.

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Easternwind

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#106  Edited By Easternwind

@alextheboss said:

@omega_kai: I have brought plenty of evidence. When Goku kicked Frieza through islands, Piccolo, Gohan, and Krillin were amazed at the power. It is also set up to look like an impressive striking feat.

Piccolo seems more amazed it was Freeza that got smashed so hard.

Later ssj3 Gotenks spiked Buu into the ground creating a large crater. Gotenks stated that it was like a meteor and that it makes him scary.

Putting aside physicals, this makes no sense for him to say when he is easily Star level with his other attacks. You could use this same argument to downplay their Ki attacks too.

Vegeta was almost killed by being thrown into the ground that left a hill sized crater.

So was Superman, and dozens of other characters.

Krillin and Tien couldn't even break down a big metal door. And I've seen people try to bring up he may have made the door out of the same stuff he made the androids, but even so if their strikes were moon-planet level they would have punched the whole base out of the mountain. But the door was casually blased through by Vegeta's ki blast, but he can't do that to the androids, so chances are it's just a really big strong metal door.

Conservation of Energy isn't always held in fiction. If it was as easy as you say, they could have busted the mountain with Ki attacks. This isn't specific to physicals.

Now you could argue bad writing or PIS for those, but the fact you have to bring either of those up would mean I actually did bring up compelling evidence, and it's just the authors fault for being inconsistent.

That doesn't mean calling PIS isn't the correct thing to do. Or rather, some of them being PIS, some of them being limited Aoe, but high potency

So the only two options are

1. The scans I showed prove their physicals are below their ki power.

2. Toriyama is inconsistent and we should go with the high ends because it makes more sense.

But saying I didn't bring evidence is just denial.

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alextheboss

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@easternwind:

When I said sure I was saying sure I can show you a striking feat. You are showing damage to the environment. But Dragonball Z characters control their Ki. You are deliberately ignoring feats against characters.

Controlling the damage done to the environment with physical strikes doesn't make sense. With ki blasts, sure, you can condense the blast. But when a punch hits the ground, or if a body gets thrown into the ground, there is no controlling the damage there, it's just mass hitting at a certain speed causing a certain amount of damage.

Now I'm not saying the destruction equals the potency. A punch that destroys a mountain would be way more potent than an explosion that destroys a mountain, but I still call it mountain level because we can't really judge potency. So when I say a mountain level punch, it means I think it can destroy a mountain, not that it has mountain level potency.

They always use Ki in their attacks. That was just an example anyway, I could have used any other punch. How about Frieza ripping the Arm off of someone who can tank small planet level attacks?

In general it seems their physicals bodies are destroyed by physical means easier than ki blasts. Like Vegeta getting almost killed by Gohan falling on him, even though that Vegeta was still stronger than Yajirobe. I agree it doesn't make much sense, but it's how Toriyama writes the story. And could you honestly say you can imagine first form Frieza casually grabbing a moon or planet with his hand and just throwing it?

You are being pedantic. Every series is like that. In almost every series with planet level characters, they are hurt by attacks which are no where near planet level AOE. Potency.

Yes, but I already made my argument about potency. If they just got hurt by punches that would be one thing, but when we consistently having feats that show they are physically weak, and the author shoves it in our face multiple times, it's a whole other story.

My point is that Piccolo’s feat is Small Planet level. He completely dusted the moon off the screen.

Destroying the moon feat is moon level. Trying to imply he is even close to planet level is silly when Piccolo with a power level of 1 million was hyping up how Frieza could planet bust.

It's like the people who fan calc first form Freiza's supernova into being dwarf star level. No, it destroyed a planet, it's planet level. Piccolo destroyed the moon, it's moon level.

Dragonball characters have shown on multiple occasions to be able to react to and keep pace with their Ki attacks.

Different ki blasts go different speeds, so they can't all be scaled to Piccolo's. For example Krillin's blast was powerful but slow, and then became fast to hit all the Saibamen. Special beam canon is fast, Raditz could side step it, but he woudn't even be close to outrunning it, even though his power level is 1,500 which is about the same as the SBC.

I actually am fine with Relativistic-Lightspeed Naruto/Madara/God Tiers based on Light Fang, Gai, and Toneri, but I know a lot of people don’t accept that.

Night Guy is the only time a Naruto character had legit relativistic movement speed imo. The other top tiers might be able to quickly move their heads or arms at that speed for a fraction of a second, but they don't actually move around fighting at that speed imo.

The dragonball feat is a lot more solid though.

Not really when we have a multitude of confirmed speed feats far below light speed. If Goku could move near light speed even for a second, his momentum would have sent him far enough and fast enough to where he would have gotten to Kign Kai's place in a few minutes, but it took months the first time, and a day the second time, calcing him at mach 30. Buu saga Gohan took 20 minutes to fly to school, Krillin took hours to fly across Namek, yadrat Goku couldn't go 10,000 km and back unless it was with teleportation. Characters also fail to dodge solar flare consistently. Frieza, Cell, Kamiccolo, and Black were all hit by solar flare. If they were FTL they should have out paced it before they hit. Piccolo knew the technique but was still hit by it.

I don’t think Krillin could blitz Naruto or vice versa, I would say they are around the same speed.

I would say Naruto is more like namek saga Krillin speed, but your opinion here is fare. However Naruto making a 1000 clones means Krillin now need to keep up with 1000 guys the same speed as him.

I guess you could call it reaction speed for both of them, But I think both Naruto and Krillin have shown they can move their bodies that fast, at least for short periods of time.

I agree.

It isn’t just the moon feat, there are a few other relativistic feats.

Such as? The closet thing that I saw in the manga that could be argued as a light speed statement/feat would be Frieza's death beam that Piccolo said was so fast it just looked like a beam of light to him.

No Caption Provided

However imo this is likely just a simile, but even if we take it at face value, it likely means Piccolo doesn't have light speed reactions, because it would seem silly for Piccolo to compare an attack he can't react to, to the speed of something he can react to (light). But I can see where someone is coming from saying this attack is light speed due to the fact Piccolo, who has a strong argument for being a relativistic reaction timer, couldn't react to it, plus it was equated to light. I think a spanish guide book for the manga also calls it a beam of light. So at best I would say final form Frieza and base Goku had light speed reaction time, while the others at best have relativistic reaction time.

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Easternwind

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@alextheboss:

Controlling the damage done to the environment with physical strikes doesn't make sense. With ki blasts, sure, you can condense the blast. But when a punch hits the ground, or if a body gets thrown into the ground, there is no controlling the damage there, it's just mass hitting at a certain speed causing a certain amount of damage.

Now I'm not saying the destruction equals the potency. A punch that destroys a mountain would be way more potent than an explosion that destroys a mountain, but I still call it mountain level because we can't really judge potency. So when I say a mountain level punch, it means I think it can destroy a mountain, not that it has mountain level potency.

I mean, it doesn’t make much sense but it makes more sense than most. There are plenty of series which have planet level characters who don’t destroy planets with every attack and don’t even have an excuse.

I’m not sure you know what I mean when I say potency. What I mean is that an attack could be below building level in AoE/Destructive Capacity, but if it hurts someone who can tank Island busters, then it has much higher potency than it’s DC would let on.

In general it seems their physicals bodies are destroyed by physical means easier than ki blasts. Like Vegeta getting almost killed by Gohan falling on him, even though that Vegeta was still stronger than Yajirobe. I agree it doesn't make much sense, but it's how Toriyama writes the story. And could you honestly say you can imagine first form Frieza casually grabbing a moon or planet with his hand and just throwing it?

Sure, but they use Ki when they strike. I am talking about striking.

I can’t picture that no, where would he even grab? Planet level strength feats don’t make any damn sense anyway.

What I can picture is freeza ripping the arm off of someone who could let a planet explode in his face. Because it happened.

Yes, but I already made my argument about potency. If they just got hurt by punches that would be one thing, but when we consistently having feats that show they are physically weak, and the author shoves it in our face multiple times, it's a whole other story.

They cannot lift planets no. I am talking about striking power.

Destroying the moon feat is moon level. Trying to imply he is even close to planet level is silly when Piccolo with a power level of 1 million was hyping up how Frieza could planet bust.

Power levels are not direct correlations, and they shouldn’t trump feats. You can do the calculations yourself. Destorying a moon so that it literally turns to dust and flies so far that it is off panel is easily a small planet level feat.

It's like the people who fan calc first form Freiza's supernova into being dwarf star level. No, it destroyed a planet, it's planet level. Piccolo destroyed the moon, it's moon level.

Uh, no. If the calculations say it is dwarf star level than that’s what it is. Freeza’s is even more solid because we have an exact timeframe. Destroying a planet of that size at that speed is a small star level feat.

Just saying “Well their DC is only what they destroy” is silly and makes no sense. “Planet level” isn’t a tier. It is just a label we use for someone who can output the equivalent of 10^32 joules worth of power.

If someone kicks an island and sends it to the other side of the planet at mach speeds, destroying it. That feat is beyond just “Island Level”

Different ki blasts go different speeds, so they can't all be scaled to Piccolo's. For example Krillin's blast was powerful but slow, and then became fast to hit all the Saibamen. Special beam canon is fast, Raditz could side step it, but he woudn't even be close to outrunning it, even though his power level is 1,500 which is about the same as the SBC.

Your just being arbitrary now. Stating that Piccolo’s beam was an exception in speed comes of as finding an excuse to not use the feat. I’m not saying they can outrun it for a long time or anything but it is clear DB characters can react and fight on par with their ki attacks.

Night Guy is the only time a Naruto character had legit relativistic movement speed imo. The other top tiers might be able to quickly move their heads or arms at that speed for a fraction of a second, but they don't actually move around fighting at that speed imo.

Well, yeah I pretty much agree.

Not really when we have a multitude of confirmed speed feats far below light speed. If Goku could move near light speed even for a second, his momentum would have sent him far enough and fast enough to where he would have gotten to Kign Kai's place in a few minutes, but it took months the first time, and a day the second time, calcing him at mach 30. Buu saga Gohan took 20 minutes to fly to school, Krillin took hours to fly across Namek, yadrat Goku couldn't go 10,000 km and back unless it was with teleportation. Characters also fail to dodge solar flare consistently. Frieza, Cell, Kamiccolo, and Black were all hit by solar flare. If they were FTL they should have out paced it before they hit. Piccolo knew the technique but was still hit by it.

This is really getting into consistency here. I could do the same thing you are doing with Naruto low ends. Or any other series.

Iv’e already said Travel speed =/= Combat speed.

Solar flare isn’t usually accepted as light speed btw. Either way using solar flare isn’t fair. Goku could react to it as a kid, yet it still hits people who are stronger than Freeza. It seems it doesn’t have one base speed.

I would say Naruto is more like namek saga Krillin speed, but your opinion here is fare. However Naruto making a 1000 clones means Krillin now need to keep up with 1000 guys the same speed as him.

It depends on how you scale both verses I guess. I have them both around Relativistic.

Krillin doesn’t really need to “keep up” though, He can just spam AoE.

Such as? The closet thing that I saw in the manga that could be argued as a light speed statement/feat would be Frieza's death beam that Piccolo said was so fast it just looked like a beam of light to him.

There are quite a few beams which go far into space. They would be at least sub-relativistic or relativistic. I can try and find scans if you want. Examples would be Gohan vs Cell and Vegeta vs Cell.

However imo this is likely just a simile, but even if we take it at face value, it likely means Piccolo doesn't have light speed reactions, because it would seem silly for Piccolo to compare an attack he can't react to, to the speed of something he can react to (light). But I can see where someone is coming from saying this attack is light speed due to the fact Piccolo, who has a strong argument for being a relativistic reaction timer, couldn't react to it, plus it was equated to light. I think a spanish guide book for the manga also calls it a beam of light. So at best I would say final form Frieza and base Goku had light speed reaction time, while the others at best have relativistic reaction time.

Well, this comes down to portrayal again, even in verses where there are light speed characters, things can still be “flashes” most authors don’t have the characters react to actual light. It’s just that the speed feats they show are above 300,000 m/s.

Anyway, I don’t think we need to really continue to much as it seems most of this debate is just coming down to consistency issues and disagreements about portrayal. But I will reply if you want to.

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cooljammy18

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At best, he gets to Frieza and gets stomped there. At worst, he doesn't get past the Ginyu force.

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alextheboss

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@easternwind:

I’m not sure you know what I mean when I say potency. What I mean is that an attack could be below building level in AoE/Destructive Capacity, but if it hurts someone who can tank Island busters, then it has much higher potency than it’s DC would let on.

Sure, but when it comes to physical attacks we can only guess, so it makes more sense to go by the DC of the attack. For example I think I mountain level punch is more potent than a mountain level explosion.

For example, Boros from OPM melted an entire city's worth of heat resistant metal with one punch. I'm sure it has way above city level potency, but I would call it a city level punch.

When I say character A has mountain level punches, that does not automatically mean I don't think they can't punch through someone who has mountain level durability, it just means their max DC with their punch is destroying a mountain.

So I would say Frieza has mountain level punches, but I do think he would pummel the crap out of Naruto, who I say has country-moon level durability.

Sure, but they use Ki when they strike. I am talking about striking.

I can’t picture that no, where would he even grab? Planet level strength feats don’t make any damn sense anyway.

True, but Vegeta not being able to lift Mageta is enough to prove my point.

What I can picture is freeza ripping the arm off of someone who could let a planet explode in his face. Because it happened.

Nail would die in a planet explosion.

They cannot lift planets no. I am talking about striking power.

Which for everyone in the saiyan saga is below kicking each other through small islands.

Goku's shockwave from his strike is clearly inferior to 8 gates Guy's attacks, which knocked Madara hundreds of feet into the solid ground.

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Guy is a perfect example of my argument as well. He is inferior to Madara in durability and DC, and Guy only has mountain level punches imo (potency clearly higher though), but he was wrecking Madara due to speed and striking power. Like how many of these DBZ characters have more DC and durability than Naruto, Naruto has better striking feats, and therefore should win in hand to hand combat.

Power levels are not direct correlations, and they shouldn’t trump feats. You can do the calculations yourself. Destorying a moon so that it literally turns to dust and flies so far that it is off panel is easily a small planet level feat.

That contradicts the stories narrative. Planet busting is considered impressive in the verse. Even in the Cell saga the planet was only threatened to be destroyed when large attacks were charged up.

Uh, no. If the calculations say it is dwarf star level than that’s what it is.

No, because

1. Their calculations are probably wrong. Most people just accept it's a huge planet because it's 10x Earth gravity, even though King Kai's planet also has 10x Earth's mass. Not to mention I doubt they really know what they are talking about in the first place when it comes to physics, because you can actually increase a planets gravity by decreasing it's radius. A planet with 2x less mass than Earth, and 2x less radius, so basically smaller in every way, would actually have 2x the gravity of Earth on the surface of the planet.

2. The scene of Frieza blowing up planet Vegeta was anime original.

3. The people who made the scene weren't even thinking that, they were just trying to show he can blow up a planet.

Just saying “Well their DC is only what they destroy” is silly and makes no sense. “Planet level” isn’t a tier. It is just a label we use for someone who can output the equivalent of 10^32 joules worth of power.

I'm talking about general planet level right now. Frieza is stated to be able to destroy planets, and the way he casually destroyed planet Vegeta, sure I can accept that he could probably destroy massive planets like Jupiter, but trying to go star level with it is pushing it.

If someone kicks an island and sends it to the other side of the planet at mach speeds, destroying it. That feat is beyond just “Island Level”

Obviously. But Frieza charging up his signature planet destroyer, arguably his strongest attack, and just destroying the planet, is not above planet level.

Your just being arbitrary now. Stating that Piccolo’s beam was an exception in speed comes of as finding an excuse to not use the feat. I’m not saying they can outrun it for a long time or anything but it is clear DB characters can react and fight on par with their ki attacks.

I would say it's pretty clear their ki attacks can reach speeds far above their physical attacks.

This is really getting into consistency here. I could do the same thing you are doing with Naruto low ends. Or any other series.

Can you consistently show me Naruto god tiers being below mach 1000-10,000? Because that's about where I have them.

Iv’e already said Travel speed =/= Combat speed.

Ya, and they have no calculable combat speed feats.

Solar flare isn’t usually accepted as light speed btw.

Sounds like people in denial to me. It's a flash of light, it can only move at light speed.

Either way using solar flare isn’t fair. Goku could react to it as a kid, yet it still hits people who are stronger than Freeza. It seems it doesn’t have one base speed.

Goku never reacted to it, he saw the move already and recognized the hand signal so he got the sunglasses before the technique went off.

Krillin doesn’t really need to “keep up” though, He can just spam AoE.

That's not in character.

There are quite a few beams which go far into space. They would be at least sub-relativistic or relativistic. I can try and find scans if you want. Examples would be Gohan vs Cell and Vegeta vs Cell.

Those are high ssj and ssj2 tiers. They are in a completely different league than saiyan saga characters.

Well, this comes down to portrayal again, even in verses where there are light speed characters, things can still be “flashes” most authors don’t have the characters react to actual light. It’s just that the speed feats they show are above 300,000 m/s.

I guess, but if you take away that moon feat there all of a sudden becomes 0 evidence of light speed, which is a problem, especially with all the feats showing they aren't that fast. Taking a feat that Toriyama probably didn't even think about the speed of and running with it for the rest of the series even when actual speed feats are given and are far slower doesn't sit right with me.

Anyway, I don’t think we need to really continue to much as it seems most of this debate is just coming down to consistency issues and disagreements about portrayal. But I will reply if you want to.

Only reply if you enjoy it.

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Easternwind

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@alextheboss:

Sure, but when it comes to physical attacks we can only guess, so it makes more sense to go by the DC of the attack. For example I think I mountain level punch is more potent than a mountain level explosion.

For example, Boros from OPM melted an entire city's worth of heat resistant metal with one punch. I'm sure it has way above city level potency, but I would call it a city level punch.

When I say character A has mountain level punches, that does not automatically mean I don't think they can't punch through someone who has mountain level durability, it just means their max DC with their punch is destroying a mountain.

So I would say Frieza has mountain level punches, but I do think he would pummel the crap out of Naruto, who I say has country-moon level durability.

I don’t see that it makes sense to go by the DC of the attack. As you demonstrate here, DC is irrelevant to a fight. Potency is what is important.

SSJ2 Vegeta killing himself is a thousand time stronger than Piccolo’s moonbust or Freeza’s planet busts even though the former had less AOE than much weaker attacks.

Would you say someone like Dabura is only mountain level because he never showed any DC?

Honestly, by your last sentence, I can see we agree. I just don’t see why DC should even be brought up here.

True, but Vegeta not being able to lift Mageta is enough to prove my point.

Sure, I concede actual lifting strength is not as high, though they do have a lot of “raw” strength.

Nail would die in a planet explosion.

Eh, I should have been a bit less hyperbole-y. Lets go with a moon or small planet, which he easily would.

Which for everyone in the saiyan saga is below kicking each other through small islands.

Goku's shockwave from his strike is clearly inferior to 8 gates Guy's attacks, which knocked Madara hundreds of feet into the solid ground.

Except this is missing the point in both instances.

In DBZ, their striking is on par-ish with their ki attacks. For example, SSJ2 Gohan freaking disintegrates beings which would eaaaaasily tank Planet level attacks.

In Naruto, Gai isn’t impressive because of his striking feats doing some stuff. Its because he is striking MADARA and breaking TRUTH SEEKING BALLS. As for why that Matters, Madara and the TSB have the durability to tank attacks from BSM Naruto + Sasuke and even Juubidama.

Guy is a perfect example of my argument as well. He is inferior to Madara in durability and DC, and Guy only has mountain level punches imo (potency clearly higher though), but he was wrecking Madara due to speed and striking power. Like how many of these DBZ characters have more DC and durability than Naruto, Naruto has better striking feats, and therefore should win in hand to hand combat.

I honestly disagree. I think you are under-rating Gai’s power.

That contradicts the stories narrative. Planet busting is considered impressive in the verse. Even in the Cell saga the planet was only threatened to be destroyed when large attacks were charged up.

So do a hell of a lot of other feats. It doesn’t really contradict it. Cell himself said he would wipe out and entire solar system, and the villains are considered threats to the universe. The planet is threatened because they live there, a feat is actually shown.

No, because

1. Their calculations are probably wrong. Most people just accept it's a huge planet because it's 10x Earth gravity, even though King Kai's planet also has 10x Earth's mass. Not to mention I doubt they really know what they are talking about in the first place when it comes to physics, because you can actually increase a planets gravity by decreasing it's radius. A planet with 2x less mass than Earth, and 2x less radius, so basically smaller in every way, would actually have 2x the gravity of Earth on the surface of the planet.

2. The scene of Frieza blowing up planet Vegeta was anime original.

3. The people who made the scene weren't even thinking that, they were just trying to show he can blow up a planet.

1- I would have to look at the calculations again. I am fairly sure this reasoning was discussed, but I have been out of the loop for a while. Yes, you can increase gravity by decreasing radius. Wouldn’t that imply King Kai’s planet is dense where as Planet Vegeta is clearly planet sized?

2- Nope, the calc is from the scene shown in super iirc.

3- That doesn’t matter. You could say that about any feat ever. The entire point of this hobby is to figure out the power behind a feat.

I'm talking about general planet level right now. Frieza is stated to be able to destroy planets, and the way he casually destroyed planet Vegeta, sure I can accept that he could probably destroy massive planets like Jupiter, but trying to go star level with it is pushing it.

If he can destroy planets to the level which comes out to Tenatons of TNT, then he is star level. He doesn’t have to actually be able to destroy a star, just have a feat equivalent to the gravitational binding energy of a small star.

Obviously. But Frieza charging up his signature planet destroyer, arguably his strongest attack, and just destroying the planet, is not above planet level.

Well, yeah. He was space hitler, that was kinda his gig. Also destroying a star could involve more than just having star level power.

I would say it's pretty clear their ki attacks can reach speeds far above their physical attacks.

They dodge their ki attacks all the time. They are shown comparable to their beams in the Ginyu fight and Goku was able to outrun Ki attacks in the 23rd BT.

Can you consistently show me Naruto god tiers being below mach 1000-10,000? Because that's about where I have them.

Sounds about where I have them too on my low end. Well, honestly I don’t want to bring up the low ends because people will use them to downplay. But mostly just general portrayal. Naruto specifically does have some better travel feats than most verses tho.

Ya, and they have no calculable combat speed feats.

Reacting to attacks which are Relativistic+

Sounds like people in denial to me. It's a flash of light, it can only move at light speed.

Goku never reacted to it, he saw the move already and recognized the hand signal so he got the sunglasses before the technique went off.

That’s arguable.

It’s light so it’s lightspeed? It’s funny I have never seen that used to downplay before. Usually it’s “Just because it’s called light doesn’t mean it’s light speed”

Do you keep this consistent with other verses?

That's not in character.

Good point.

Those are high ssj and ssj2 tiers. They are in a completely different league than saiyan saga characters.

It’s also just backup to the feat which was already performed twice.

I guess, but if you take away that moon feat there all of a sudden becomes 0 evidence of light speed, which is a problem, especially with all the feats showing they aren't that fast. Taking a feat that Toriyama probably didn't even think about the speed of and running with it for the rest of the series even when actual speed feats are given and are far slower doesn't sit right with me.

Like I said there is supporting evidence, and even you yourself have brought up some relativistic feats.

Only reply if you enjoy it.

Oh I do, some of the facets of this hobby can be frustrating sometimes though.

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alextheboss

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@easternwind:

I don’t see that it makes sense to go by the DC of the attack.

It depends on the situation. If a character shoots a ki blast that makes a planet level ki blast, and then shoots another ki blast with the same amount of power but it makes a small explosion, we can assume potency comparable to the other ki blast. If it's a move like Goku's dragon fist or when he absorbed the spirit bomb and punched through the super androids I think you could do the same. But if it's just a regular punch I don't think it can.

SSJ2 Vegeta killing himself is a thousand time stronger than Piccolo’s moonbust or Freeza’s planet busts even though the former had less AOE than much weaker attacks.

Ya, but we know weaker characters can planet bust with ki attacks. No character has ever destroyed a planet with a punch until god level.

Would you say someone like Dabura is only mountain level because he never showed any DC?

He has ki blats, so we know he likely can blow up a planet. A character like Magetta, with no ki blats might not actually be able to planet bust, but he can defeat characters who can due to his physical strength and durability.

In DBZ, their striking is on par-ish with their ki attacks. For example, SSJ2 Gohan freaking disintegrates beings which would eaaaaasily tank Planet level attacks.

I would say the force of ssj2 Gohan's strikes are stronger than the force you would be hit by if on the surface of a planet explosion. But the thing is when hit by explosions, if it's a strong object the explosions will try to go around the hard object, while Gohan's strikes will only go right through. It's like why a nuke might leave some strong walls partially standing, but a wrecking ball will smash right through them.

So I don't think the strike has more energy than an entire planet explosion, but if you had a psi recorder, it would record much higher from Gohan's kick than if you put a small psi recorder next to a planet explosion.

Here is a pretty good example. Lets pretend there are two hoses that shoot out water. Lets say one is as thick as a house and shoots out a steady stream of water, while one is as think as a pencil but shoots out water like a jet and can pierce through human flesh. The smaller hose, wile more potent still has less volume coming out of it per second. So equate Gohan's kick to the highly pressurized hose, while the planet sized explosion is the giant hose. Gohan's kick has less energy than the planet explosion, just like the smaller hose has less volume running through it than the larger one, but it can rip through characters who can survive a planet explosion due to 100% of the energy from the attack, like how the more potent hose has 100% of the water striking a single point.

And of course I would agree ssj2 Gohan kicks through every Naruto character like butter.

In Naruto, Gai isn’t impressive because of his striking feats doing some stuff. Its because he is striking MADARA and breaking TRUTH SEEKING BALLS. As for why that Matters, Madara and the TSB have the durability to tank attacks from BSM Naruto + Sasuke and even Juubidama.

Both are impressive. Guy's feat was impressive due to scaling and on panel destruction.

I honestly disagree. I think you are under-rating Gai’s power.

In what way? His attacks are mountin-multi mountain in DC, and the strike point would probably be equivalent to being hit by a country-continent level explosion.

So do a hell of a lot of other feats. It doesn’t really contradict it. Cell himself said he would wipe out and entire solar system, and the villains are considered threats to the universe. The planet is threatened because they live there, a feat is actually shown.

You missed my point. I'm not saying that was their limit, I'm saying the planet was only even threatened to begin with when they charged their attacks up enough, and I'm talking about the good guys, not the bad guys. When Vegeta charged up his final flash they said the planet couldn't handle it, and when Goku was powering up his kamehameha they said if it hit the planet directly it would destroy the Earth, but that didn't happen with their other ki blats. To destroy the planet Cell had to cell destruct, instead of just quickly shooting down a small ki blast to bust the planet, killing everyone but himself due to being able to survive in space, but instead he chose a move where he himself would die, and the only reason I can think of is that he would need to charge up an attack to planet bust, and the only way the Z fighters would give him the time to do it is if he would blow up if they tried to stop him early.

1- I would have to look at the calculations again. I am fairly sure this reasoning was discussed, but I have been out of the loop for a while. Yes, you can increase gravity by decreasing radius. Wouldn’t that imply King Kai’s planet is dense where as Planet Vegeta is clearly planet sized?

We have no knowledge on planet Vegeta's size. It could be as small as Mercury or as big as Jupiter. And King Kai's planet didn't really seam that dense, plus Beerus' planet, which is really small had regular gravity as well. Namek also seems to have similar gravity to Earth. Imo it's just like Star Wars, where practically everything just has the same gravity due to plot convenience, and it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with mass.

2- Nope, the calc is from the scene shown in super iirc.

The super scene really isn't any more canon. If we want to go by the most absolute one, I would say the scene in the new Broly movie would be it, so we should probably wait for that.

3- That doesn’t matter. You could say that about any feat ever. The entire point of this hobby is to figure out the power behind a feat.

That only works when we have all the knowledge regarding the feat, which we don't.

If he can destroy planets to the level which comes out to Tenatons of TNT, then he is star level. He doesn’t have to actually be able to destroy a star, just have a feat equivalent to the gravitational binding energy of a small star.

I was actually looking it up and a dwarf star apparently can be as small as Earth, so if that's the case then I can see it, but I doubt a dwarf star that small would even be harder to bust than Jupiter, so putting it at dwarf star level would seem more like a strange attempt to make people think it's more impressive than it is.

They dodge their ki attacks all the time. They are shown comparable to their beams in the Ginyu fight

And people can dodge high speed cars hit fast balls, ect. I'm not saying they are completely outclassed in speed, but their ki blasts could easily be 10x faster than their actual movement speed.

and Goku was able to outrun Ki attacks in the 23rd BT.

Roshi's hundred meter dash was like 5.3 seconds. If anything that just makes the ki blast look slow.

Reacting to attacks which are Relativistic+

Which requires Piccolo's moon attack, the speed of which was PIS. If they had relativistic movement speeds, their momentum alone would send them halfway across the planet, but that clearly isn't the case. Why would it take Goku months to travel 1 milion km if he could move at short bursts of relativistic speed? Just hitting that speed, even for a microsecond, would be enough to let his momentum allow him to get there fare quicker than that.

If their kicks were relatvistic that means they should be able to move/hence jump at relativistic speeds. Goku should have been able to jump like Saitama did from the moon to Earth. Would have taken him minutes to get there like that.

That’s arguable.

What is? If you are talking about the Tien feat, then no, it's a fact and clearly shown in the panels.

It’s light so it’s lightspeed? It’s funny I have never seen that used to downplay before. Usually it’s “Just because it’s called light doesn’t mean it’s light speed”

Please tell something besides light that makes light, lol. It's just fans trying to find a way to make sense of dbz characters being FTL, even though they were never supposed to be.

Do you keep this consistent with other verses?

What do you mean? I try to be consistent with everything, but dragon ball is actually one of the hardest to be consistent with due to it being inconsistent in general and heavily relying on statements.

It’s also just backup to the feat which was already performed twice.

You can't say ssj/ssj2 tiers with power levels possibly in the billions back up speed feats from characters with power levels in the hundreds...

Like I said there is supporting evidence, and even you yourself have brought up some relativistic feats.

Yes, later in the series where it builds up to it. Final form Frieza's death beam is the first thing that arguably has evidence being light speed. Cell saga ssj tier is where they start consistently getting relativistic ki blasts, and Buu saga shows by feats top tiers are at least relativistic. Super are the first characters to have concrete FTL feats.

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ourmanuel

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Dies at any relativistic+ person with casual country+ dc

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Fictional_Fan

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Stops at 1

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terry2012

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@gokuss4z said:

Stops at one, Krillin one shotted 3 Raditz level characters.

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king_bardock_57

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At worse, 2 at best, 5.

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gideongarner01

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He’s not getting past the Saiyan saga that’s just a fact that no one can ever disagree with s

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EpicHotFlame

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stops at round 17 against final form frieza

with sasuke he stops at round 18 against ssj goku

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FearReaperRedux

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Where is the option with Naruto soloing the verse?

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Bossmountain

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SergeantMuscle

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Naruto solos

He blinks the verse out of existence

This is a mismatch.

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ragegod

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Stops at 1.

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takenstew22

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#125 takenstew22  Moderator

So much shit bait.

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Juicers

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may stops at post-raditz Piccolo

might stops at Nappa

definitely stops at Goku KK2

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MattyBoi

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Naruto possibly clears. Bare minimum stops at 19 tho

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deactivated-62e81257beede

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LOL I wouldn't underestimate Krillin XDDDD that Destructo disks though XD

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LordOfTheNinjas

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Stops at 9

He’s already FTL with novel feats and DBZ cast aren’t FTL until final form Frieza n post healing Goku with Kaio Ken amps

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kingonea

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#130  Edited By kingonea

Stops at 1. Krilin has him beat in everything. Really at lightspeed Final Form Frieza when lightspeed feat was clearly done in Raditz saga. Freiza light attack is massively faster than light he shoots it with his Ki level which is far more potent than Piccolo's lightbeam attack against Raditz. That lightbeam was lightspeed to casually ftl+++. Physicals are not done with Ki what kind of nonsense is this Ki isn't a tangible thing we can base blunt force, nor blunt force durability with it nor can it interact with blunt force, this is like someone saying he put fire around his fist and the fire counts as blunt force when he punches someone it's complete nonsense. Gets wrecked at 1. With max 4.

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deactivated-5e5937775a5e6

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This is bait.

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LordOfTheNinjas

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Makes it up to Namek due to being FTL and physically stronger and stops at 100G Goku on Namek

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GhostWarren

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Stops at 1. Krillin one shots

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SixPathsOfCapra

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Clears

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deactivated-63055b33107d2

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Number 1 is 5x Stronger then a causal Moon Buster

He stops at 1

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tercerlugar

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Jajaja, lol, no sé desde cuando los narutards se volvieron tan absurdos.

R1 : naruto se detiene en goku saga saiyan (no kaioken)

R2 : naruto y sasuke se detienen en vegeta saga saiyan.

Psdt .- “naruto y sasuke barren casi todo dbz" XDXD que estúpido.

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gelato_exotic

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#137  Edited By gelato_exotic

Back when people used to use trash arguments like Solar Flare somehow being LS despite the Daizenshuu and feats saying otherwise. Pretty hypocritical and contradictory to use it to try and argue against FTL Saiyan Saga anyways when they far more consistently dodge attacks explicitly described as light in the same manner like Ginyu's Body Change, Frieza's Death Beams, Frieza's Death Ball, etc. Wat a joke.

OT: Current Nardo should be able to clear Saiyan Saga and some of the Ginyu force members nocomment on the rest

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Pandalumina

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He dies at 3 if he somehow scrapes past the first two rounds

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Frostaku

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#139  Edited By Frostaku

stops at 1. saiyan saga krillin had a higher power level then boz piccolo who effortlessly one shotted the moon.

boz piccolo and boz goku are small planet level

No Caption Provided
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Krillin also had a higher power level then raditz who bodied boz piccolo and boz goku.

raditz small planet+

saiyan saga krillin> raditz

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LucasCosta

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If he is lucky, may pass over Nappa.

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DemarG

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8% voted cleared.

nice

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Shonenday22

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#142  Edited By Shonenday22

Stops at 8