That's a very faulty argument.You can't compare slicing attacks to AoE attacks.Also,cutting through a planet IS more impressive than destroying the moon because you have to overcome the gravitational binding energy of said planet which is proportional to it's mass.And again,all it proves is that Goku and the others can't condense their ki to create such a technique that cuts a planet apart,which is impressive.Nothing to do with their AoE capabilities
You would only be right if he cut the entire planet in half, but he didn't. gravity would actually be helping his attack because his attack is directed down towards the center of the planet. there is no evidence his attack kept going all the way to and through the planet's core.
Exactly where was it stated that King Piccolo was small nuke level?
Daizenshuu
It surely wasn't in the manga,if anything he demolished a city or two which a small nuke can't do,and if we allow his hype he could destroy the entire world if he wanted to.
He destroyed multiple blocks of the King's city to demonstrate his power, then when fighting Goku his strongest attack wiped away the whole city. Even if he is above small nuke level, he is around city level to city+ level. A far cry from moon level.
As for Roshi's buff form,maybe he is much much stronger than his normal form,who had difficulties with Goku and Krillin as kids,while buff Roshi could take multiple Freeza soldiers without dying.
Those Frieza soldiers gasped when Frieza casually destroyed a city, some needed canons on their arms to shoot energy attacks, and like over 20 of them were eaten by a giant fish. So even though they should all logically be above King Piccolo scaling wise, by feats they aren't. They really don't care about consistency it seems, lol. And in the latest episode of Super they made it seem like Krillin could actually put up a fight against Basil.
Let's explore a bit of physics.The mass of the Earth is about 6x10^24 Kg,while the crust has a mass of 2.6x10^19 Kg,(that is roughly 0.0099% the Earth's mass).The mass of the moon is 7.35x10^22 Kg,that is three orders of magnitude above Earth's surface mass,and if it has more mass,it requires more energy to destroy than the Earth's surface.Our moon is fairly large for a satellite,it's actually larger than pluto,which was once considered a planet.The picture you've shared shows an explosion the size of Nappa's blast,which would kill all life on the planet,but wouldn't come close to moonbusting AoE.
Regardless,wiping off the Earth's surface<destroying our moon,which is almost a 1000 times more massive,ignoring the fact that the core is significantly more dense.
The problem with your calc is you are only accounting mass and not distance. For example if you had a piece of metal that was 100 pounds and destroyed it with dynamite, that same amount of dynamite won't be able to destroy a piece of metal that was 10 pounds but spread out really thin across an entire fooball field. Even though it takes less energy to destroy the metal that has less mass, if it is spread out the force of the explosion won't reach all of it.
Same thing with the earth. Lets say you spread enough dynamite across the surface of the earth to destroy the entire surface. If you took all of that dynamite and clumped it together in one spot, it would no longer destroy the entire surface of the planet.
I'm not saying that Boros' attack is automatically moon level or above, but saying because the attack is coming from one spot and the explosion has to spread across all the way to the other side of the planet, changes things by a great deal, and then Saitama just punched that attack away.
True,but I don't see how it matters.People with output weaker than Vegeta already trump everyone here in terms of feats,so planet busting isn't needed.
Techniqually he has the worst feats of anyone here. He just scales off of the good feats from Nappa, Roshi, and Piccolo.
Again,you're also being generous accepting Boro's surface statement,but not Vegeta's planet statement.
I consider both to be planetary level threats, but neither to be able to erase entire planets as Frieza did. Both are set up very similar, I think Boros' attack may of even been inspired by Vegeta's galic gun. I put them around the same level.
My point was that in a random encounter,Saitama wouldn't just run up to Vegeta and punch his head off right off the bat.Although I guess you could argue that Boros would do that,which is why I'd give it to the opm duo if it's in character
Even so, the suggested point was that it's the control of chakra in the brain that ensnares the target in the genjutsu.
No, Jiraiya stated the exact opposite.
"Right, Naruto... Genjutsu is something that works on your opponent's five senses. To control the Chakra flowing through and linking their cranial nerves."
The statement outright states Genjutsu is cast to affect the five senses inorder to control the chakra in the brain. It's only by attacking the five senses that Genjutsu achieves Chakra control.
Otherwise, it is assumed that anyone would be able to just snap himself out of it like an ordinary person who wakes himself up from a bad dream because he knows it's a dream.
This does happen...Sasuke telling Jugo it's a genjutsu, jolted him out of Cee's Genjutsu. It's only against skilled Genjutsu users where this is no longer an option. Namely, members of the Uchiha Clan.
Gallery
This is why an outside force is needed to disturb the target's chakra flow so that they can break free.
Again, it's only against skilled Genjutsu users where this is needed. Jugo was able to come out of an illusion with a simple statement. Sasuke didn't have to "Kai" Jugo out of the Genjutsu. Nor did Jugo have to inflict pain on himself to resist it.
Controlling the chakra in the opponent is absolutely key to the whole process. The control of the target's chakra is also, I believe, what allows genjutsu to be deadly in the first place.
No, Chakra control isn't part of the process, it's the result of the process.
Otherwise, again... it's just an illusion that isn't going to do any actual damage to the opponent.
Most Genjutsu are used to fool or control opponents, not cause any harm (atleast physically).
That said, genjutsu affects the normal five senses. The ability to sense energy or life force... the "ki sense" that most of the Z-fighters have... is a sort of sixth sense that genjutsu would have no effect on.
Yet powerful sensors like Tobirama fear simple Sharingan Genjutsu. Keep in mind, he could sense people several countries away and determine the target's ancestry based on the signature.
Logically, Goku would be able to sense if something is an illusion because he would sense no energy or "life force" coming from it.
But by that same idea, Tobirama is immune to Genjutsu which isn't true at all.
Most Genjutsu are used to fool or control opponents, not cause any harm (atleast physically).
You're right. I was conflating Tsukuyomi with regular genjutsu in my mind. Totally my goof.
The statement outright states Genjutsu is cast to affect the five senses inorder to control the chakra in the brain. It's only by attacking the five senses that Genjutsu achieves Chakra control.
Yep. And what's the goal of controlling the chakra in the brain? What purpose does that serve if they are already caught in the genjutsu?
Yet powerful sensors like Tobirama fear simple Sharingan Genjutsu. Keep in mind, he could sense people several countries away and determine the target's ancestry based on the signature.
He fears simple sharingan genjustu? Chapter number?
But by that same idea, Tobirama is immune to Genjutsu which isn't true at all.
Not once did I suggest ki sense would make Goku immune to genjutsu.
No, Chakra control isn't part of the process, it's the result of the process.
Lol... I'm not sure what you're arguing. Look, controlling the chakra flowing through the cranial nerves is key, whether it's a part of the process or the end result of it. Otherwise, there was no point in Jiraiya even mentioning chakra to Naruto there. He would have simply said "it controls the five senses" and left it at that.
Could you list all the instances in canon that you are thinking of where genjutsu worked on people who don't have chakra? Just chapter numbers will work. I can look them up; no need to post scans. Not including the first time Kaguya used IT (I know of that one).
I apologize if these have already been posted elsewhere. If so, you can simply direct me to those threads/posts. Or not. It's up to you. :)
Yep. And what's the goal of controlling the chakra in the brain? What purpose does that serve if they are already caught in the genjutsu?
What goal or purpose? If controlling chakra in the brain can only be achieved by manipulating the 5 senses like Jiraiya said, isn't the intended goal already achieved?
He fears simple sharingan genjustu? Chapter number?
RIP, that was a filler scene lol. I was referring to when he fought Izuna. A better example would be Sage Mode Kabuto.
Not once did I suggest ki sense would make Goku immune to genjutsu.
Fair enough, I thought that was what you were trying to assert. Sorry for the confusion.
Lol... I'm not sure what you're arguing. Look, controlling the chakra flowing through the cranial nerves is key, whether it's a part of the process or the end result of it.
I doubt so. It's never really explained what controlling chakra after affecting the 5 senses does, and it's only mentioned when looking to break of out the Genjutsu, not invoking it.
Otherwise, there was no point in Jiraiya even mentioning chakra to Naruto there. He would have simply said "it controls the five senses" and left it at that.
Pretty sure Jiraiya mentioned that so he could also explain to Naruto how to break out of a genjutsu, since Naruto clearly had no talent for Genjutsu.
Could you list all the instances in canon that you are thinking of where genjutsu worked on people who don't have chakra? Just chapter numbers will work. I can look them up; no need to post scans. Not including the first time Kaguya used IT (I know of that one).
Well, 'people' might not be the correct word to use in this case. There's only one example of Genjutsu affecting human beings without Chakra, but there certainly is another example where it's worked on ordinary house cats, which don't possess Chakra, since it was explicitly stated that Hagoromo only distributed Chakra to people:
Could you list all the instances in canon that you are thinking of where genjutsu worked on people who don't have chakra? Just chapter numbers will work. I can look them up; no need to post scans. Not including the first time Kaguya used IT (I know of that one).
Well, 'people' might not be the correct word to use in this case. There's only one example of Genjutsu affecting human beings without Chakra, but there certainly is another example where it's worked on ordinary house cats, which don't possess Chakra, since it was explicitly stated that Hagoromo only distributed Chakra to people:
Naruto chapter 677 - page 14
Thanks! I greatly appreciate it.
So... we have a couple of cats being affected by IT, and a chakra-less people being affected by IT.
I don't know, man. I appreciate the effort, but the proposed evidence isn't enough to convince me that regular old genjutsu (or regular Tsukuyomi) would be effective on people who don't have Naruverse chakra in them. I am more inclined to believe that the above panel (and Kaguya's showing against a chakra-less people) was only possible due to it being Infinite Tsukuyomi - which could easily be argued as the most powerful ability in Naruto canon. It was the entire crux of the main villain's plot, and literally the only living characters ever shown to be able to counter it were the original Team 7 (the heroes of the story), and that thanks to the "deus ex machina" that was Sasuke's Susanoo.
@gracetrack: You're correct. IT is on a completely different scale than any other Genjutsu, that was already established.
Unfortunately, people use this as an excuse to why "any Genjutsu would work on people without Chakra",despite direct statements from the manga that blatantly say Genjutsu is basically the manpulation of one's Chakra flow.
@thefantastictesticle: That's because you overestimate dragon ball characters. You probably think they are FTL too even though they are shown to be clearly much slower than that.
Yes, Infinite Tsukuyomi is the strongest Genjutsu in the Narutoverse, but there was never a functioning difference between Sharingan Genjutsu and IT. The difference is only in range and power. Genjutsu working on House cats and Dogs is proof that chakra flow isn't necessary in invoking it.
And yeah, imo, those two examples are more than enough evidence to say it will work here, mainly due to IT still being classified as a Genjutsu and nothing really suggesting its functions are any different from you average, run-of-the-mill illusion in the Narutoverse.
The reason many people seem believe Genjutsu is Chakra dependent is due to Jiraiya's statement where he mentions Chakra in the victim's head being controlled, which could possibly be a result of the Genjutsu taking affect and not necessarily a requirement for it to work.
Since it was already explained pretty early in the series that Chakra is something a Ninja consciously creates by melding physical and spiritual energy together when performing a Ninjutsu or Genjutsu, it seems reasonable enough to deduce that people don't constantly walk around with Chakra flowing through their pathway system. As a matter of fact, we've seen that they actually don't. So the main issue I have with the theory of Genjutsu only working on characters with Chakra in their head to manipulate lies in the fact that most characters in the Narutoverse aren't going to have Chakra flowing through their bodies at all times, so when we have instances such as Danzo placing an unsuspecting Mifune under Genjutsu during the Five Kage gathering, and Itachi controlling some random girl from the city, who has very likely never even been trained in the art of molding Chakra, it leads me to believe that controlling the victim's Chakra was never really essential to performing Genjutsu.
Anyway, that's just my two cents on the matter. Even if we ultimately don't agree with each other, it was still a pleasure debating with you either way. Take care. :)
@thefantastictesticle: That's because you overestimate dragon ball characters. You probably think they are FTL too even though they are shown to be clearly much slower than that.
What makes you think dragonball characters arent FTL.
if you already watch Db you should know by now they are mfl, they have shown whis traveling across Universe's and beerus flying across nebula in few seconds.
What makes you think dragonball characters arent FTL.
There are a bunch of examples I could give if you want. Not to mention there isn't one speed feat above light speed in the entire manga.
if you already watch Db you should know by now they are mfl, they have shown whis traveling across Universe's and beerus flying across nebula in few seconds.
I know god tier characters are FTL. I'm only talking about the original manga. Top tiers of the Buu saga are close to lightspeed.
If you ever watched DBS, Whis and Beerus have obvious MFTL+ speed feats and they're easily scaled to the likes of Goku and Vegeta.
I don't know if you even knew about it, because from your last comment it seems like you take only the manga into consideration: The DBS anime is canon, it's written by Toriyama, hence, it's canon and every feat presented in it is legit. Going by DBS feats, Goku or Vegeta, individualy, fodderizes the other 2 teams with no difficulty at all.
If you ever watched DBS, Whis and Beerus have obvious MFTL+ speed feats and they're easily scaled to the likes of Goku and Vegeta.
My post literally right above yours already explains that I wasn't talking about Super characters and I know god tiers are FTL.
I don't know if you even knew about it, because from your last comment it seems like you take only the manga into consideration: The DBS anime is canon, it's written by Toriyama, hence, it's canon and every feat presented in it is legit. Going by DBS feats, Goku or Vegeta, individualy, fodderizes the other 2 teams with no difficulty at all.
There is no real canon when it comes to DBS. The manga and the anime versions are quite different.
and Goku and Vegeta don't get super feats here, this is their saiyan saga versions.
@alextheboss: My bad then. Either way, scaling from BoS DBZ Piccolo's moon busting feat, the Saiyans are still more capable despite lacking speed. Give me a reason to why it's outlier in your opinion.
When most people talk about DBS, they're usually refering to the show, not the manga. There are 2 versions, both canon because they're both written by the original author.
I never really bothered reading the manga because I assume it'll be the same/similar, so I'll take your word for it.
: My bad then. Either way, scaling from BoS DBZ Piccolo's moon busting feat, the Saiyans are still more capable despite lacking speed.
Give me a reason to why it's outlier in your opinion.
1. Roshi said he couldn't beat King Piccolo who was only city level
2. Roshi thought the crater Tien's tri beam created was extremely impressive and said that the tri beam was far more destructive than the kamehameha
3. Piccolo was amazed by a deep crater Nappa made even though it was faaaaar below moon level
4. Krillin was amazed by a big crater Recoome made even though it was far below moon level
5. Everyone was amazed by Frieza making a big slice in the planet even though it was below moon level
When most people talk about DBS, they're usually refering to the show, not the manga. There are 2 versions, both canon because they're both written by the original author.
Well Super has nothing to do with this thread anyways.
I never really bothered reading the manga because I assume it'll be the same/similar, so I'll take your word for it.
1. Roshi was only able to destroy the moon when he used his total 100%, and his Kamehameha required charging time and iirc completely emptied him(?)
It also doesn't mean he has the durability and speed to deal with King Piccolo and take him on.
2, 3, 4, 5 - Actual feats that are consistent >>> incosistent statements. Krillin also said the explosion warped the planet...which it didn't. If you trust statements like these, then why wouldn't you trust statements of weaker characters that say they are capable of destroying the planet(ahhm SS Vegeta ahhm). I'm pretty sure Goku also confirmed it due to his ability to sense Vegeta's tremendous Ki.
Statements, especially inconsistent ones, don't make a certain feat an outlier.
1. Roshi was only able to destroy the moon when he used his total 100%, and his Kamehameha required charging time and iirc completely emptied him(?)
I know. You realize moon busting is billions or trillions of times above city busting right? Roshi needed his buff for just to destroy a mountain, so that would make his buff form trillions of times above his normal form.
It also doesn't mean he has the durability and speed to deal with King Piccolo and take him on
I agree with you here.
2, 3, 4, 5 - Actual feats that are consistent >>> incosistent statements. Krillin also said the explosion warped the planet...which it didn't.
It did warp the planet a bit. He is talking about how the crater is warped up.
If you trust statements like these, then why wouldn't you trust statements of weaker characters that say they are capable of destroying the planet(ahhm SS Vegeta ahhm). I'm pretty sure Goku also confirmed it due to his ability to sense Vegeta's tremendous Ki.
It's not just statements. Their ki attacks are constantly far below moon level. Even ones that are supposed to be impressive.
@alextheboss: Their ability to control their Ki to a very high extent could suggest that they simply focus it. It does not mean it's not deadly if the AoE is not massive. I could easily pull an example for an attack with almost no apparent DC that managed to injure an extremly durable character.
Don't forget most of the fighters in DB can't just blast the crap out of the planet because they simply can't survive in space. That makes sense. There's a reason planets, stars and moons blowing up and claims of being able to blow them up occurred throughout the entire show.
I could send you a forum where you could ask about it, they can explain it much better. Although I might be confusing them with another forum and their explanation is completey different, although I know they're on the same page as I am and they'll have an explanation for you(although mine still stands, IMO). It's been a while since I debated a match involving Dragon Ball characters.
Their ability to control their Ki to a very high extent could suggest that they simply focus it. It does not mean it's not deadly if the AoE is not massive. I could easily pull an example for an attack with almost no apparent DC that managed to injure an extremly durable character.
True but a lot of the feats I showed were meant to look impressive. I didn't pick out the small explosions, only the big ones.
Don't forget most of the fighters in DB can't just blast the crap out of the planet because they simply can't survive in space. That makes sense. There's a reason planets, stars and moons blowing up and claims of being able to blow them up occurred throughout the entire show.
I agree, but not really until later in the series. Nobody was really worried about destroying the planet until Frieza and the Cell saga. The only example before that was Vegeta's galic gun.
I could send you a forum where you could ask about it, they can explain it much better. Although I might be confusing them with another forum and their explanation is completey different, although I know they're on the same page as I am and they'll have an explanation for you(although mine still stands, IMO). It's been a while since I debated a match involving Dragon Ball characters.
Anyway, that's just my two cents on the matter. Even if we ultimately don't agree with each other, it was still a pleasure debating with you either way. Take care. :)
What goal or purpose? If controlling chakra in the brain can only be achieved by manipulating the 5 senses like Jiraiya said, isn't the intended goal already achieved?
What is the purpose of genjutsu controlling the target's chakra flow, in your opinion? If chakra control is the goal, then why?
RIP, that was a filler scene lol. I was referring to when he fought Izuna. A better example would be Sage Mode Kabuto.
No worries. It's easy to get things mixed up with manga/anime as packed with content as Naruto. Anyway, so are you saying Sage Mode Kabuto was afraid of simple sharingan genjutsu? Do you have a chapter number for that? I don't recall that either.
Fair enough, I thought that was what you were trying to assert. Sorry for the confusion.
No worries. :)
I doubt so. It's never really explained what controlling chakra after affecting the 5 senses does, and it's only mentioned when looking to break of out the Genjutsu, not invoking it.
The fairly obvious implication was that controlling the chakra flow in the brain is key to genjutsu being effective, and Jiraiya was describing that process to Naruto precisely so that Naruto would know how it works and how to counter it. Otherwise, again, there would have been no reason whatsoever for Jiraiya to mention that part.
Pretty sure Jiraiya mentioned that so he could also explain to Naruto how to break out of a genjutsu, since Naruto clearly had no talent for Genjutsu.
Heh... exactly right. He was explaining how the genjutsu process works so that Naruto would know how to counter it. I truly... honestly... do not understand how that can be interpreted any other way. What I see are people wanting to twist around the Jiraiya statement and trying to use Infinite Tsukuyomi... the most powerful ability in the manga that's on a completely different level than normal genjutsu and normal Tsukuyomi... as a justification for doing so because normal genjutsu/tsukuyomi have zero feats to show that they work on characters who don't have chakra.
Anyhoo, that's about it from me. We can agree to disagree. Grace and peace. :)
I'd side with Saitama and Lord Boros. Vegeta's 'planet busting' Galick gun was only used as an extreme last resort and is also contradictory since Vegeta wouldn't have been able to survive the explosion or the vacuum of space afterwards. Physically Saitama and Boros are more impressive than Saiyan Saga Goku and Vegeta. Naruto and Sasuke have no business in this battle.
@alextheboss: dude, small explosion=\= weak attack
If that was the case you would never be able to make a good story with anything above few city blocks lvl characters because you can't destroy a city/continent/earth every fight in the series
This will be stupid
Even attacks that hurt Ssb Goku are sometimes have only few feats range and even non holding back ssb goku kayoken^10 didn't do much damage to the place he faught while it should be around galaxy lvl (since he is many times stronger than when he faught beerus
But when a character is impressed with the actual damage done to the landscape, and not the attack itself, that means they are impressed by the DC, and not the potency.
Goku and Vegeta mismatch what with having multi-planet busting feats and scales (Saiyan Saga)
Saitama and Boros probably beat Naruto and Sasuke with minor difficulty due to higher feats or statements rather although Naruto characters do have moon level feats (or at least approaching such)
Genjutsu doesn't work if target has no chakra to manipulate, and even if it does a large burst of energy can break such genjutsu.
"it's as astoundingly destructive as I'd expect""He blew away the ground and warped the planet""He cut through the planet itself""Can't see the bottom. Never dreamed such a blast"
@thedarkpaladin: I beg to differ with that. Boros starting in his armor as pictured and Saitama's bad habit of trying to tank attacks proves to be a heavy disadvantage for their team and will likely result in them being eliminated first.
Also DC isn't the only thing team DBZ brings to the table. Vegeta's TK is pretty hax in this battle and here's my reasoning as to why it wouldn't be out of context for him to use it:
Vegeta not using it against anyone besides the one Saibaman had context each and every time. During his fight with Goku it was his Saiyan pride. Not using it to kill Nappa was mainly about flexing his power in front of Goku. And finally not using it against Krillin, Gohan, or Yajirobe was because of how beyond pissed he was.
None of that applies here and because of his general cockiness, he's likely to use it early on due to his belief that his combatants are beneath him.
Not saying team Dbz wins but just pointing out that they have a chance just like the other teams do & shouldn't be easily written off.
He also believed Krillin, Gohan, and even Goku were far beneath him as well. He thought himself to be the strongest warrior in the universe, and was even ready to commit suicide by destroying the planet after Goku gave him a beating. The Saibamen are also far beneath anyone here, and there's little reason to believe he could just blow up anyone regardless of power.
As for Boros and Saitama, while it's true the latter is known to try and tank attacks, Vegeta and Goku aren't exactly the type of fighters to start out the battle with powerful Ki blasts. They'll most likely try to engage in H2H, which would be their downfall, imo.
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