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#51 Edited by Toratorn (7071 posts) - - Show Bio

@comic_crusader said:

Tough. I'm not incredibly knowledgeable on Wonder Man so I could be convinced. But for now I give it to Iron Man & Namor

I can provide feats for Wonder Man.

Beats Abomination:

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West Coast Avengers #25

Fight against Hyperion that causes the entire planetoid under their feet to tremble (Wonder Man loses this fight and dies, however):

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Avengers Annual #16

Beats Namor:

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Avengers #155

Stomps Grim Reaper:

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Avengers #160

Tanks attacks from Ultron:

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Avengers #162

Defeats Ultron:

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West Coast Avengers #7

Tanks hits from Captain Britain:

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Excalibur #38

Fights against Thor (he loses, but still performs well):

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West Coast Avengers Annual #2

No sells everything Iron Man throws at him and tears his armor apart:

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Marvel Comics Presents #41

Two-shots Iron Man:

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Marvel Comics Presents #43

Iron Man admits that he is not as strong as Wonder Man, doesn't want to go h2h with him and has his full power repulsors no sold:

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West Coast Avengers #10

Iron Man's repulsors no sold again:

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Avengers #132

3 hits from Wonder Man and Iron Man says that he "can't take much more of this":

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Wonder Man #2

Tanks a sucker punch from Herc and hits him back, the latter says that he rivals Thor in strength:

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Avengers#211

Tanks hits from Erik Josten and defeats him:

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Wonder Man #1

Hurts Super-Nova with a punch:

Avengers #302
Avengers #302

Tanks hits from Adam Warlock while weakened:

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Wonder Man #14

Trashes Skurge the Executioner:

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Avengers #9

Puts Drax the Destroyer on his knees with a single hit:

Wonder Man #15
Wonder Man #15

That was all before Wonder Man learned the full extent of his power and before he got enchanced:

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Wonder Man #25-26

Here's a couple of feats after said enchancement. Stalemates Professor Hulk:

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Wonder Man #26

Tears apart Iron Man's armors and no sells their blasts:

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Mighty Avengers #4-5

Manhandles Iron Man, Ms. Marvel and Charcoal at the same time:

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Thunderbolts #44

Beats Atlas and pulverizes Charcoal:

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Thunderbolts #42

Beats Ms. Marvel:

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New Avengers Manual

Tanks a hit from near-Void Sentry:

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Mighty Avengers #6

Tanks a hit from bloodlusted brainwashed Thor and hits him hard enough for him to drop Mjolnir:

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Fantastic Four vol.3 #23

Downs Thor with a punch to gut (Thor is not KOed and gets up 2 pages later):

Avengers vol.4 #2
Avengers vol.4 #2

Embarasses Red Hulk:

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Avengers vol.4 #31

No sells a punch from Jim Hammond and one-shots him:

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Avengers/Invaders #2

Two-shots Giant-Man:

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Avengers vol.3 #10

Stops a swing from giant Absorbing Man:

A+X #12
A+X #12

Tanks hits from Immortal Hulk:

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#52 Posted by jaakor (290 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn: that was a cheap shot from behind after namor already withstood his hits and kicked him away.

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#53 Posted by Toratorn (7071 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaakor: Namor was hurt from Simon's blow while Wonder Man tanked Namor's first hit without any damage. Knocking someone away is not impressive, especially considering that Namor suckered Simon both times he hit him (when he was tricked by Attuma and Simon didn't expect it and when he got back after Simon punched him away).

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#54 Posted by jaakor (290 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn: Simon just knocked him away, he recovered mid-air and kicked Simon away. Simon was out of the fight long enough that namor faces beast and whizzer and even managed to have a conversation with whizzer before Simon attacked him from behind.

Namor didn't cheap shot Simon with that kick, he came at him from the front and simply kicked him away. We have seen what happens when they actually fight face to face, Namor beat him and used him as a bat to beat up ares

Also namor easily picked up hydrobase from the bottom of a lake, Simon could barely hold up hydrobase even with the help of Susan storm

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#55 Posted by Toratorn (7071 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaakor: he wasn't out of the fight, Namor and Whizzer simply moved from that spot.

Namor didn't beat Simon in that instance, he just swung him around a couple of times, and that didn't do shit to either Simon or Ares - both were fine and conscious after that.

Not to mention, in the same issue Simon no sold a hit from Jim Hammond and one-shot him:

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something that Namor couldn't do when bloodlusted and brainwashed:

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The Torch #4-5

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#56 Posted by jaakor (290 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn: moved to where? Lol, so he was taking a break while they were fighting? Or they moved so fast that they got so far away? He was out of the fight long enough that a fight and conversation could take place, that's a fact

Oh please,namor was beating him and ares at the same time, after having fought sentry offpanel. He was fine after the fight was already done, what does that prove?

Simon clearly cheapshotted Hammond there, as he was clearly focused on Toro. Hammond took on the entire team at one point during the invader/avenger crossover

Namor was clearly overpowering Hammond there and tanking his hits whereas Hammond floored Simon and the others in one blast in the crossover fight

Hell,by feats against similar opponents namor blows him out of water

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#57 Posted by Toratorn (7071 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaakor: to the different section of the platform, obviously. Simon needed time to follow. Oh, and time to find a column to ram Namor with too.

He wasn't beating anyone. He did no damage to either of them and ran away. It proves that he did nothing of value to either Simon or Ares.

KOing someone with a cheapshot requires force too. Namor couldn't even hurt Hammond and was hurt from his punch, Simon had enough strength to KO him and no sell his punch.

"Overpowering" him means jack for this comparison. It's not like Hammond grappled with Simon. What matters is Namor failing to hurt him. Oh and yeah, knocking someone down is a feat now, apparently? Because Hammond did absolutely nothing except knock them down with a nova blast (an attack he didn't even use against Namor) and the next time we saw Simon he was fine and fighting:

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What similar opponents? Iron Man, who Namor always struggles with even underwater and who Simon stomped multiple times or was always shown to be superior to? Maybe Abomination, who beat Namor in 2 hits in the first time and who Namor needed to utilize environment to beat in the second fight, while Simon beat him fair and square? Maybe Red Hulk, someone who Namor couldn't do shit to while underwater, but who was wrecked by Simon? Namor doesn't "blow him out of water", they both had their fair share of victories or losses against similar people.

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#58 Posted by jaakor (290 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn: enough with the headcanon, Simon who can hit escape velocity speeds needed time to 'catch up' to a namor who barely moved away from their initial fight location, so much time that namor beats both beast and whizzer, then have an entire conversation with whizzer? Lol. And he didn't need some to find the pillar, there were pillars all around them

Okay, your argument that 'they are fine after the battle is over means they didn't lose' is crap, they got beaten down, just bevau their opponent didn't finish the job doesn't change anything. Namor beat the crap out of Simon and ares, he beat Simon so bad he used him as a baseball bat, Simon's 'win' against either namor or Hammond comes as a cheapshot.

Using a cheapshot as an excuse is not even worth entertaining, much weaker characters have beatwn stronger ones using cheapshots, Simon beat Hammond and namor with cheapshots after they were distracted by other people, yet in a straight fight,he was getting shitstomped, he gets no distractions here,and we've seen what happens when he faces namor with no distractions

Lol Abomination? He beat the TAR out of Simon, Simon won by using electric cables to weaken him. Abomination beat a Namor who had just fought an entire avengers lineup, which included Hercules, in their rematch,namor sent him underwater and two pieced him. Namor has oneshotted iron Man numerous times whole straight up tanking his attacks, namor beat up red hulk and kicked out of the water, that wasn't so much a fight as simply teaching him a lesson. How about hercules who broke Simon's face? Whereas namor and Hercules have stalemated just about every time they've fought, grey hulk overpowered Simon without much effort and namor has stalemated and beaten green hulk several times, hell against mindless hulk, a dehydrated namor did FAR better than Simon did, hell,venom at one point was beating on Simon

We also have comparative strength feats with hydrobase, showing namor far above Simon

So basically

We have Simon beating namor with a cheap shot, In a fair fight, teenage namor humiliated him.

We have namor doing better against common foes

We have namor having better strength feats on a common structure (hydrobase)

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#59 Edited by Toratorn (7071 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaakor: bullshit, he needed a jetpack to fly in classic times, and he didn't learn how to fly on his own till his own ongoing comic in 90s. And he didn't have a jetpack there either. He can't "hit escape velocity" on his feet. Namor didn't beat Beast, he went away on his own, and Namor only punched Wizzer once. Not much time is needed to throw one punch and say several lines of dialogue. And no, there were no pillars around them at all.

No, my argument is that Namor didn't do shit to either of them. Neither was damaged, both of them were barely even hurt, no one was KOed, nothing. He did absolutely nothing. And yet here you are, claiming that he "beat the shit out of them". TIL you need to hit someone two times to win a fight, regardless if you actually defeated your opponent or not! Flawless logic.

It's impossible to beat someone outside your power range even with a cheapshot. You still need to overcome one's durability with your power for that. Yes, it's slightly less impressive that KOing someone in a straight-up fight, but then again, Namor never KOed Wonder Man at all.

Yes, Simon stunned him with electric cables and then beat him up. Namor couldn't even beat him with his own power and needed to submerge him so deep he was unable to absorb nitrogen. Using Namor's prior fight against Avengers is also a shitty move, considering that water restores Namor's stamina and he showed 0 signs of fatigue before Abomination kicked his ass.

Namor one-shotting Iron Man is inconsistent as hell, seeing as how he struggled with him on ~5 different occasions and also struggled greately against War Machine. Namor did absolutely nothing to Red Hulk except for breaking his breathing equipement. Namor definitely didn't do better against Mindless Hulk - at one point of the fight Simon explicitly needed to drag his ass out of the fight because he was got so weak. You mention Herc messing Simon up? But you don't mention that it was a crazy unhinged Herc after infusion of hydra blood, wheread Namor always fought in-character Herc. If he foght the same unhinged Herc, he would get his ass kicked just as badly. Oh and yeah, Grey Hulk struggled greately with Simon and didn't even knock him out. Not to mention, that was Simon before his upgrade, and after that upgrade he was able to stalemate Professor Hulk and wreck Red Hulk, so bringing up Grey Hulk is also a useless move. Literally the only relevant thing you mention were Namor's fights against Savage Hulk.

Oh, Simon struggling with Venom? You're so desperate that you need to resort to blatant low ends? Alright, I can do that too. Remember all the times Namor couldn't beat Cap? Or couldn't beat Black Panther? Or got stomped by She-Hulk twice? Struggled with Luke Cage? Couldn't scratch a Kree Sentry? If you want to throw shade, Namor was overpowered by Atlas' single arm, and Wonder Man trashed the same Atlas.

So basically, you've brought up nothing of value, pretty much lied about plenty of things (Namor humiliating Simon when that never happened, for example). Even the Hydrobase comparison is faulty because Simon didn't have proper leverage when lifting it - he relied on his backpack instead of solid ground. And Wonder Man has better lifting feats - like lifting weights set for Thor and throwing the compressed island with help of Iron Man, Thor and Vision (more impressive than Hydrobase feat even if Wonder Man shouldered only 1/4 of the weight).

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#60 Posted by jaakor (290 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn: okay, this is getting pathetic, I'll just end it here

If you don't know the significance of cheapshots, then there's no point arguing further. We've seen what happens when he faced a teenage namor straight up, how is this even an argument

Yeah, beating someone so badly that you can use him as a baseball bat to beat someone else isn't humiliating him?

Oh spare me this crap

A poisoned Hercules would do better against a normal ok because he Lost his mind?

Namor used his STRENGTH to drag Abomination underwater and choke him out yet Simon had to resort to Using electric cables, and you have the nerve to say namor couldn't use his own power? Are electric cables part of Simon's powerset? Double standard BS

Simon had a panic attack against mindless hulk LOL. Of anything, Simon beating Rulk would be the inconsistency, seeing as how he gets stepped on by high class bricks frequently.

I used venom because, like the others,he is a common foe. But let's talk about Namor's low end

Cap? Namor rapes him just about every time,BP? He is only troublesome because of his suit that absorbs KE from attacks which would be troublesome for any brick, she-hulk beat namor when he was dehydrated or distracted, Luke cage? Their first fight ended with cage floating unconsciously over the lake, their second fight had namor two-piece him and use him as a baseball bat to KO she-hulk, kree sentry? Surely you don't mean the Kree elite fighter whose teeth he nearly knocked out and had to resort to a special weapon to take him down?. That pic with atlas isn't even a fight lol, namor simply demanded he relase him, Nice try though

Leverage? Hydrobase was at the bottom of the Hudson River, namor picked it up and moved it to the top, who had better leverage? Simon wasn't even lifting it,just balancing it WITH help

. LOL using a shared feat with the stronger Thor and two others is useless, and namor supported the Utopia island ALONE, stopped Doom's city sized ship ALONE

Based on Canon materials, teenage namor uses wonderman as a baseball bat. Feel free to think otherwise

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#61 Posted by Toratorn (7071 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaakor: this is getting annoying. I'm not even gonna bother with a proper response, since all you did was repeat your own BS, ignore context and bring up even more irrelevant crap.

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#62 Posted by Supermanthor (18748 posts) - - Show Bio

iron man solos everyone come at me angry birds

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#63 Posted by Comic_Crusader (102 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn:

Good Shit. I switch to Wonder Man & Vision

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#64 Edited by greenroost (1381 posts) - - Show Bio

most likely team 2 (wonder man is a strong link, and vision had high utility)

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#65 Posted by Darth_Nimrod (2758 posts) - - Show Bio

Overally, Wonder Man and Vision.