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#1 Posted by King Saturn (223002 posts) - - Show Bio
Can Namor and Iron Man defeat Vision and Wonder Man in a fight that takes place near the Pacific Ocean ?

Namor
Namor
















Iron Man
Iron Man

















vs


Vision
Vision














Wonder Man
Wonder Man
















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#2 Posted by vance_astro (90095 posts) - - Show Bio

If this is classic Vision..Tony & Namor may be in trouble.

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#3 Posted by King Saturn (223002 posts) - - Show Bio
Thats what I was thinking. Classic Vision was a beast back in the day...


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#4 Posted by vance_astro (90095 posts) - - Show Bio

LMFAO @ that picture of Wonder Man..

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#5 Posted by King Saturn (223002 posts) - - Show Bio
Vance Astro said:
"LMFAO @ that picture of Wonder Man.."
Ha Ha Ha  !

I dont know what the Artist was thinking when he made that sh!t
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#6 Posted by AtPhantom (14434 posts) - - Show Bio

Is there anything IM and Namor can do to vision when he's intangible?

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#7 Posted by vance_astro (90095 posts) - - Show Bio
AtPhantom said:
"Is there anything IM and Namor can do to vision when he's intangible?"
No...Iron Man can hurt him if he tries to phase.Iron Man will also always no where he is so he can't sneak attack.
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#8 Posted by AtPhantom (14434 posts) - - Show Bio

Wait, so which Vision is it? classic or modern?

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#9 Posted by King Saturn (223002 posts) - - Show Bio
There will be 2 fights...

The First Fight will be everyone is in there Modern Incarnation

The Second Fight will include Classic Vision instead of the Current One...
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#11 Posted by Darth_Nimrod (2771 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#12 Posted by Toratorn (7275 posts) - - Show Bio

Vision beats Namor via phasing while Wonder Man wrecks Iron Man. Team 2 low diff.

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#13 Posted by Noone1996 (11865 posts) - - Show Bio

Iron Man solos. Extremis technopathy fodderizes Vision. Wonder Man's energy form is disrupted by Tony.

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#15 Posted by deactivated-5c96cd4b0edfe (80 posts) - - Show Bio

Iron Man solos that little phasing trick aint going work on him this time.

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#16 Posted by Toratorn (7275 posts) - - Show Bio

@noone1996: bullshit, Iron Man could only do that to Simon with Beast's device. He doesn't have that in a random encounter. Wonder Man folds him in half.

Not to mention, Vision has already fodderized Extremis Iron Man as well.

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#17 Posted by Noone1996 (11865 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn: How was it Beast's device? It literally came out from his nano-tech armor glove which recedes from his bones. Stark has studied his ionic form before, so he'd know how to deal with his ionic energy form:

No Caption Provided

You can cling to that shitty Marvel Comics Presents 41 writing if you want as evidence that Iron Man gets folded in half, but consistently he and War Machine take Simon's best hits without any damage. Even in Wonder Man's own book while under the same mind-controlled influence as he was in Marvel Comics Presents, he grabs Iron Man by the neck and squeezes as hard as he can and the suit doesn't get as easily damaged as it did in that other poorly written fight they had. But by all means, if you think it's good writing that he casually tears apart his chestplate and no-sells his repulsors despite never showing that capability consistently, feel free to cling to it.

Vision disabling Iron Man's armor was just a plot device so that Captain America defeated a weakened Tony. He's actually been phased by Vision many times pre-Civil War and it did nothing to him:

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He's also created countermeasures against phasing since dealing with Ghost who has phased into his suit before.
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#18 Posted by Rockette (5939 posts) - - Show Bio

Current Namor solos. Extremis Ironman solos. Team 1 wrecks here!

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#19 Posted by bdelloidgrain2 (1988 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1.

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#20 Edited by Toratorn (7275 posts) - - Show Bio
@noone1996: said:

@toratorn: How was it Beast's device? It literally came out from his nano-tech armor glove which recedes from his bones. Stark has studied his ionic form before, so he'd know how to deal with his ionic energy form:

Notice that Ms. Marvel says "nice job, Hank", not "nice job, Tony" after Iron Man contains him. And notice that Tony says that Simon gave "them" a chance to figure out how to contain him, with added implication that prep was involved.

Iron Man analyzing something doesn't mean he can use that knowledge in random encounter. I'm willing to bet he analyzed gamma radiation too at one point or another, but how many times did he beat Hulk with that knowledge?

You can cling to that shitty Marvel Comics Presents 41 writing if you want as evidence that Iron Man gets folded in half, but consistently he and War Machine take Simon's best hits without any damage. Even in Wonder Man's own book while under the same mind-controlled influence as he was in Marvel Comics Presents, he grabs Iron Man by the neck and squeezes as hard as he can and the suit doesn't get as easily damaged as it did in that other poorly written fight they had.

Nice omission of context. Simon was already out of Enchantress' control and loosened the grip. Iron Man was getting choked out before he did that.

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You know what else is funny? That Iron Man "couldn't take much more" of Simon's hits... after he was hit 3 times in total:

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The only thing funnier than that after issue 9, where Wonder Man was hit by a nega bomb, his powers were fluctuating pretty wildly , sometimes to the point where he was virtually powerless , and this bullshit was still going on in the issue where he was beating the shit out of War Machine. And even better than that, by the end of that run Wonder Man got his powers upgraded:

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So that's two reasons why you can't use that episode with War Machine as evidence that he or Iron Man can "take Simon's best hits with no damage". Especially considering Iron Man in the same run, before the nega bomb, couldn't take much more than 3 hits from Simon, and considering that next major time we see Simon and Iron Man's armors interacting, it consists of Wonder Man tearing them apart (Bendis' run).

But by all means, if you think it's good writing that he casually tears apart his chestplate and no-sells his repulsors despite never showing that capability consistently, feel free to cling to it.

I love how you claim that he can't do that consistently... When he clearly can.

Iron Man is afraid of going h2h with him, admits his inferiority and has his full power repulsors no sold:

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West Coast Avengers #10

Iron Man gets stomped in 2 hits:

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Marvel Comics Presents #43

Iron Man's armors get torn apart by Simon and their repulsor blasts are no sold:

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Mighty Avengers #4-5

Iron Man's repulsors no sold again, while Iron Man is hurt by Simon's hit (he was lucky he was hit only once, the second blow might have knocked him out outright):

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Avengers #132

No sells Iron Man's repulsors twice, from the same issue where Simon tears his armor apart:

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Marvel Comics Presents #41

War Machine's weaponry no sold by Simon, while Rhodey feels a casual hit from Simon:

War Machine #8
War Machine #8

And finally, Iron Patriot armor gets off-paneled by Simon:

Dark Reign: Lethal Legion #2
Dark Reign: Lethal Legion #2

And that brief encounter against ionic Iron Man where Tony was getting manhandled and restrained with one arm, even though he was assisted by Ms. Marvel and Charcoal:

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Thunderbolts #44

So in total... The best performance Iron Man armors ever had against Simon had him claim that he "can't take much more" after getting hit 3 times and that time with War Machine when Simon's powers were fluctuating... And both of these happened before Simon got upgraded. Other encounters either had Iron Man armors being hit only once/twice or him being wrecked outright. So yeah, Wonder Man is and has always been superior to Iron Man and has enough power to fold him in half. By consistent showings.

Vision disabling Iron Man's armor was just a plot device

Ah, my favourite argument. "It doesn't fit my interpretation so it's bad writing".

so that Captain America defeated a weakened Tony. He's actually been phased by Vision many times pre-Civil War and it did nothing to him:

Wow, now you're just outright lying and twisting context. First two scans come from Children's Crusade, a comic book that started 3 years afterCivil War ended. Not only that, but it seems that Iron Man is indeed affected - he looks like he is buckling under strain and there's no adverse effect on Vision, unlike that time in ANAD where Tony actually used countermeasures when Vision tried to phase through him.

And the second scan? Do you even know how Vision's powers work? It's not the phasing itself that hurts, it's him partially solidifying parts of himself inside one's body that causes damage. And what did Vision do in that scan? Made himself completely intangible so that Iron Man wouldn't collide with him. He wasn't trying to hurt him.

So both of these scans are completely irrelevant to your argument. Not to mention, I distinctly remember Vision matching Pymtron in the same issue where Pymtron was tearing a Hulkbuster apart, as well as that one time when Vision one-shot Iron Man with a blast in his own comic. So from what I know, Vision doesn't even need his phasing - he too can fold Iron Man in half with strength alone. Or one-shot him with a blast once again.

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#21 Posted by Noone1996 (11865 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn:

Notice that Ms. Marvel says "nice job, Hank", not "nice job, Tony" after Iron Man contains him. And notice that Tony says that Simon gave "them" a chance to figure out how to contain him, with added implication that prep was involved.

So how and when did they have the time and chance to prep against Simon? Iron Man and the Avengers are basically in shock that he attacked Avengers Mansion. Thor goes on to say, "We hoped it was false bravado" after Simon warned them. Tony then says, "We didn't think he'd actually go through with it". So they didn't prep for it before this comic. Beast goes on to ask several questions and shows that he had absolutely no idea what was happening with Simon:

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You know what happens next. They look for the Revengers and find out that they're attacking Avengers Tower. We see the Avengers go to the tower and then they realize he's not there. They then go to confront Simon's press conference:

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The time skip between scan 1 and 2 would have had to have been when they "prepped" or "built" the energy draining device on their way to town hall. Kind of doubt they came up with it in the time it took for Simon to make his speech there... A device which was also LITERALLY inside Stark's arm:

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Not sure if you're aware of this, but his Bleeding-Edge suit armor protruded from the hollow of his bones. The technology is inside his body and morphs it. That's clearly his arm. I highly doubt McCoy built a device and had Tony implement it or place it inside of his body or arm instead of just handing it to him and making him hold it...

The fact that it's inside of his arm/suit and he had to retract the outside of armor plating to let it out makes it clear that it was Tony's tech. The timeline in between the first scan I posted, where Beast had no idea what was going on with Simon and consequently would not have prepped against him beforehand, and the scan with the Avengers showing up to confront the Revengers was pretty much minutes apart. So even if they somehow built some kind of device or figured out some sort of prep plot device in the minutes it took them to travel blocks, I really fail to see how that's not a feat that Tony himself cannot replicate again. Especially with his history of containing/absorbing energy beings like that already... He's managed to deconstruct the primary energy shields of the Collective by counteracting it with energy fields of his own:

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Even countered Spectrum by using energy which countered her wavelength:

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Iron Man analyzing something doesn't mean he can use that knowledge in random encounter. I'm willing to bet he analyzed gamma radiation too at one point or another, but how many times did he beat Hulk with that knowledge?

Hulk is an extremely special situation. Nobody can fully cure him or get rid of his gamma radiation. Full knowledge of gamma radiation wouldn't do anything in a battle which is why Banner cannot cure himself despite being the biggest expert.

Nice omission of context. Simon was already out of Enchantress' control and loosened the grip. Iron Man was getting choked out before he did that.

I love the passive aggressive "omission" part like I'm being dishonest. He was starting to resist the control, but he did not fully get released of her control yet. That happens in the next page:

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He actually grabs his neck and squeezes on it which does absolutely nothing to his suit. After squeezing for a bit, Tony's pleading leads to Simon resisting which then loosens the grip. It's not like he grabbed Iron Man's neck and barely had a grip on it because the mind-control was broken. That's not what happened.

You know what else is funny? That Iron Man "couldn't take much more" of Simon's hits... after he was hit 3 times in total:

Cool. Some statement from Stark claiming that he can't take much more, despite being uninjured, undamaged, and nearly unaffected, should be held in lower regard than Stark's own statement. Seems legit.

The only thing funnier than that after issue 9, where Wonder Man was hit by a nega bomb, his powers were fluctuating pretty wildly , sometimes to the point where he was virtually powerless , and this bullshit was still going on in the issue where he was beating the shit out of War Machine. And even better than that, by the end of that run Wonder Man got his powers upgraded:

So that's two reasons why you can't use that episode with War Machine as evidence that he or Iron Man can "take Simon's best hits with no damage". Especially considering Iron Man in the same run, before the nega bomb, couldn't take much more than 3 hits from Simon, and considering that next major time we see Simon and Iron Man's armors interacting, it consists of Wonder Man tearing them apart (Bendis' run).

His powers turning on and off at random times means I cannot use the War Machine and Iron Man instances? His powers were not fluctuating or disrupting at all when he fought them, so it's irrelevant. It's not like his base stats went lower when his powers actually were working. There's no evidence of that. This is the same Wonder Man that went on to fight Professor Hulk and Furor (a character who was able to fight both Banner and Simon at the same time). You're oversimplifying his power issues. They weren't fluctuating at all when he fought Tony or Rhodes. That's a convenient excuse to tell yourself though because otherwise this feat would make the idea that Wonder Man can two-shot Iron Man look like a joke:

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I mean the guy is mentally unstable and losing control of himself (so much so that he begs them to amputate his own hand), and War Machine doesn't even grunt in pain from these hits. Not even so much as a dent on the helmet. I guess it would make sense to make up the fact that Simon's base stats were lower to try and make sense of the shitty writing of Wonder Man treating Tony like a street leveler because this completely contradicts that idea.

I love how you claim that he can't do that consistently... When he clearly can. Iron Man is afraid of going h2h with him, admits his inferiority and has his full power repulsors no sold:

Yet in that very scan you posted Iron Man is blocking and shrugging off a blood-lusted blow from Simon. It's even implied that they fight a bit off-panel as well after Wonder Man flies through that cliff. Tony's inner dialogue really isn't relevant. There are times when he's not confident and he ends up surprising himself. Ultimately, yeah, he knows he's not a match for Wonder Man physically. He's a powerhouse. But the idea that he can get fodderized and shrugged off like a street leveler is just ridiculous. He can physically hold his own. Kind of like he does against most high tiers. Also, not sure if you're aware of this or not, but Tony doesn't only have one or two settings on his repulsors and uni-beam. He can vary it based on percentages and I highly doubt he was hitting a mind-controlled Simon, whom he didn't want to fight, with lethal force.

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He's even admitted that he subconsciously holds back against the Hulk because he realized that there was still a good man inside.

Iron Man gets stomped in 2 hits:

Written from the same stupid arc where he gets fodderized and no-sold. Pretty sure even Beast lasted longer than he did.

Iron Man's armors get torn apart by Simon and their repulsor blasts are no sold:

Lol you're unironically using this instance as evidence of Iron Man's inferiority? The same armors that were getting taken out by regular bullets and Ares' footsteps? Your argument kind of falls flat when you take into consideration the fact that even Carol was one-shotting and tearing in half these fodder armors. These suits were written as fodder.

Iron Man's repulsors no sold again, while Iron Man is hurt by Simon's hit (he was lucky he was hit only once, the second blow might have knocked him out outright):

Speaking of being lucky by only being hit once:

No Caption Provided

'Nuff said.

But seriously though, I really doubt a second blow would have taken him out in the scans you posted since he tanked that first hit from him just fine. No damage or injury.

Also, it seemed like the undead characters that Immortus brought back to life from Avengers 132 were unable to be killed or taken down due to the odd effects of limbo on the dead. Kang even says that they cannot be slain:

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This is further backed up when you actually look at all of the undead characters fighting the Avengers:

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Scan 1: Frankenstein gets hit by Thor into an unbreakable wall and the narration says that he's "immortal in his own way" (since he's undead in limbo), so as a result that's why he doesn't fall into unconsciousness; Scan 2: Baron Zemo, a crappy street tier villain unable to beat Captain America, cannot be one-shotted by Vision. His beams are even so ineffective that Vision decides to flee. Kind of odd that he couldn't KO him, don't you think? Scan 3-4: Vision phases into this Ghost character and instead of getting KO'd or even affected by his solidifying of his hand in his chest, he no-sells the attack. Supposedly because he's "already a damned soul". That one is a little questionable since the attack may have been ineffective due to him being a ghost like character with intangibility powers even though it seemed deeper than that, but even then I've got more; Scan 5-6: Probably one of the best examples that these undead characters cannot be defeated in limbo. Mantis, a character who has one-shotted Thor with a pressure point strike, claims that she hit this Midnight street level character with the same hit that would have KO'd Thor himself. She even realizes that something is wrong and says she has no more taste for this battle. That it was like she was fighting a "dead man". Midnight says that she's correct and that since he's dead he can never tire, never FALL, and never fail.

Pretty obvious that the only reason Iron Man couldn't do anything more than knock Simon down in this arc was because he was undead and in limbo. Even look at the dialogue between Clint and Tony:

"I can knock him down -- but he keeps getting right back up again!" Not really sure why he'd be so surprised by that? If Simon was just "too durable" then why would he be so surprised? Just a little odd, but Hawkeye then goes on to say, "Then -- maybe this really is limbo, like Kang claimed. Anything can happen in a nutty place like this!" Stark agrees and goes on to say that if that's the case, the best course of action is for Stark to hold off the undead and unbeatable legion while Hawkeye finds the other Avengers, relays that information, and then makes a final last stand against the "undead devils".

No Caption Provided

Them being undead and in limbo is why Stark couldn't do anything to Simon in this story. It's painfully obvious.

No sells Iron Man's repulsors twice, from the same issue where Simon tears his armor apart:

Again, crap writing. Wonder Man treated Tony like he was Spider-Man or something. Like I said before, his neck is being squeezed in a death grip for brief moments and Stark isn't phased by it. When he loosens his grip, Tony is able to kick him away, but he really shouldn't be capable of tearing the suit apart like it's paper. However, I'm just repeating myself here. Let's compare how he did against Arsenal:

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Good thing Iron Man, the second most powerful Avenger, was there.

Wonder Man goes up against him another time too:

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Doesn't do so good.

War Machine's weaponry no sold by Simon, while Rhodey feels a casual hit from Simon:

Yeah, he no-sold bullets and missiles. Real impressive. Meanwhile, he tanks two hits from Wonder Man without issues. All while not even using Stark tech.

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Not really a good example. Especially since this non-Stark tech War Machine easily tanked two punches from Wonder Man when Iron Man "couldn't". Now let's compare how an obsolete Iron Man armor that's low on power compares to that very same War Machine armor:

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Would you look at that? He actually managed to damage and breach the armor. He wasn't even trying to defeat Rhodey either. Just trying to open up the suit a bit so he couldn't follow him underwater.

And finally, Iron Patriot armor gets off-paneled by Simon:

The fact that he tanked a hit from Simon is more impressive than you know. Also, it's fairly obvious that he didn't "off-panel" him as, IIRC, Wonder Man ends up getting arrested in that story and Osborn is fine. You can call it a win for Simon if you want. But I doubt it was easy otherwise he wouldn't have been gone for so long. The reason I don't care is because although Osborn was using Stark tech and actual Iron Man armors, he could not get the proper power levels and yields correct. He couldn't replicate the arc reactor battery power sources. These Iron Patriot armors were Osborn made shit.

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Now let's take a look at how he handles Iron Man's cave armor:

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Not only does he tank several hits from the Iron Patriot, but he overpowers it.

Norman ends up winning this fight, but the fact that Tony did so well in such obsolete armor is a feat in itself. Especially since Stark was going brain-dead at the time. Oh, and by the way, this Iron Patriot armor is the same variation of the red, white, and blue drones that the Hulk went up against and fodderized. Same ones during Hickman's run too that were getting one-shotted by Black Panther, Captain Britain, Ms. Marvel, etc.

And that brief encounter against ionic Iron Man where Tony was getting manhandled and restrained with one arm, even though he was assisted by Ms. Marvel and Charcoal:

Yeah, he's stronger than Iron Man. Overpowering him with one arm as he fights off two other mid tiers is a bit much, but he's definitely capable of restraining Tony. Especially in one of his oldest suits. I admit that Iron Man is not physically equal with Wonder Man. The thing you don't seem to get about Iron Man, and why I like him so much, is that he makes up for it with his intellect and versatility. He doesn't need to be physically stronger or more durable than Simon to beat him.

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I mean just look at how well Ionic beings stood up to his sonic attacks. Simon had Stark tech noise cancelling earplugs and he was still in agony. That's not the only time his sonics were shown to hurt him either. They even harmed Hercules at the same time in the third scan. I doubt he was even using his highest frequency. Just wanted to make it high enough to disable the Guardsman armors.

He also needs to breathe:

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Which, consequently, means he can and has been affected by gaseous attacks:

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Attacks which Stark also has in his versatile arsenal:

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So if he fights smart instead of trying to go blow-for-blow like an idiot, he's more than capable of defeating Simon. Even if you don't agree about his energy disruption feats.

So in total... The best performance Iron Man armors ever had against Simon had him claim that he "can't take much more" after getting hit 3 times and that time with War Machine when Simon's powers were fluctuating... And both of these happened before Simon got upgraded. So yeah, Wonder Man is and has always been superior to Iron Man and has enough power to fold him in half. By consistent showings.

Let's talk about him after he got "upgraded". Let's talk about how he was angry and was trying to blitz the Avengers and Iron Man's force-fields blocked the attack which led to him fleeing:

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Oof. You'll probably try to argue that his energy form was unstable and he "teleported" or "broke apart" conveniently before he hit Tony's shield, but it's obvious that he actually hit the force-field before he was removed from the area. The illustration could not be more clear about that. You can even see ripples in the side of the building from the hit.

We can also talk about Goliath since we're talking about not being able to put down ionic empowered beings. Iron Man has actually one-shotted him before:

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Granted, he did need to ambush him while invisible, but I still think it's pretty impressive. Even relevant too. Look at Extremis Iron Man using stealth:

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So maybe if Iron Man really is nothing more than just a street leveler to Wonder Man and he's really capable of casually folding Tony in half, two-shotting him, no-selling his best repulsors, or tearing his chestplate off with ease like you, for whatever reason, think he's capable of doing then I'm sure Stark will be smart enough to realize that he's outmatched and then just turn invisible and spam other abilities. I'm sure Simon has all sorts of counters for all of Stark's versatile tricks and weapons, right?

Ah, my favourite argument. "It doesn't fit my interpretation so it's bad writing".

First of all, I know for a fact that you admit that Civil War II was shit writing and inconsistent. What's the difference between claiming that "doesn't fit your interpretation" and Vision phasing a guy who has had intangibility countermeasures for years?

Wow, now you're just outright lying and twisting context. First two scans come from Children's Crusade, a comic book that started 3 years afterCivil War ended.

Wow. I'm lying now? Actually buddy, the Children's Crusade was a prequel event that was supposed to have taken place right before the Civil War happened. The timeline on the story was before the Stanford tragedy and Registration Act occurred, but also right after House of M occurred. As I type this out, I will look for more evidence to back my claim, but basic logic and knowledge of the story is proof enough. The Avengers still being a team, no mention of the Registration Act, Thor being missing, Iron Man still donning his Extremis armor, no Bucky Captain America, Red Hulk not being apart of the Avengers, Wonder Man being alive and on their side instead of against them/forming Revengers (which was what was happening with him during 2010), and Captain America still being alive and in charge would indicate that this happened right before Civil War. This likely would have happened right around the time that Iron Man's Execute Program storyline was occurring since the main Avengers lineup seems to be Extremis Iron Man, Wolverine, Captain America, Spider-Man, Luke Cage, and Ms. Marvel. So yes, this did seem to happen before Civil War. Thus, this is inconsistent.

Even if it happened after Civil War that doesn't really help your argument anyway since that would just prove that Tony fixed his armor and created countermeasures since the events of that storyline.

Not only that, but it seems that Iron Man is indeed affected - he looks like he is buckling under strain and there's no adverse effect on Vision, unlike that time in ANAD where Tony actually used countermeasures when Vision tried to phase through him.

Even if you reach, his armor is still perfectly functional and in no way affected the same way as he was in Civil War. I personally think that electricity emanating from his armor and Tony just standing there is more evidence of the futility of the attack more than anything, but I really don't need to make that argument as we see in the very next page that Stark and his armor is fine and perfectly functional. Even capable of flight. That trick won't and shouldn't work again.

And the second scan? Do you even know how Vision's powers work? It's not the phasing itself that hurts, it's him partially solidifying parts of himself inside one's body that causes damage. And what did Vision do in that scan? Made himself completely intangible so that Iron Man wouldn't collide with him. He wasn't trying to hurt him.

Don't take my word for this, but I recall an author statement or explanation given somewhere about Vision disrupting Tony's suit having to do solely with the fact that, in the Marvel universe, it's established that intangibility/phasing through Marvel tech disrupts it. I cannot prove this though, so we can move on from this part.

Point is, if that was the case, the second scan proves that intangibility/phasing alone doesn't disrupt his modern armor. Do I agree that it's different when Vision puts his hand in and solidifies it? Yes, but as far as I know, he simply phased through without solidifying his hand. Solidifying his arm into Stark's body would have caused immense amounts of pain instead of just causing electricity to shoot out and "compromising his armor" like Vision says after he's done.

Either way, still inconsistent nonsense:

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As if Stark doesn't have an intangible villain that he's consistently dealt with in the past...

So both of these scans are completely irrelevant to your argument. Not to mention, I distinctly remember Vision matching Pymtron in the same issue where Pymtron was tearing a Hulkbuster apart, as well as that one time when Vision one-shot Iron Man with a blast in his own comic. So from what I know, Vision doesn't even need his phasing - he too can fold Iron Man in half with strength alone. Or one-shot him with a blast once again.

Iron Man has technopathy with his Extremis armor. Anything digital can be commanded and controlled. I see no reason why Vision couldn't be hacked. Not only that, but he's also susceptible to EMP's. During that Pymtron run you are talking so much about, he's afraid of being EMP'd. There was even a situation where he had to shut down before Tony used his EMP on Doom's tech because he knew the effect it would have:

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As for Pymtron, you are MASSIVELY oversimplifying what happened. First of all, Vision traded blows with Ultron for about 5 pages. He was getting dominated when, IIRC, Quicksilver comes in to give Vision a chance to recover. After Pymtron wrecks Pietro, Vision admits that he is simply holding him off (for only one page) until the Hulk-Buster gets there. If the Hulk-Buster had been trading blows and stalemating Ultron like the Vision had been doing, I'm sure it would have lasted much longer, but that wasn't the plan. The plan was to keep Ultron contained within the armor and then BFR him. With Ultron inside and the HB not hitting him back, he breaks out in a couple of pages. Essentially, by him being inside the armor he's getting a high amount of free shots without interruption (that wasn't the case when Vision fought Pym). The funniest thing is that if you actually count the amount of times Vision tanked a hit from Pymtron before Quicksilver steps in to help, it's only 3 times. One of which was with a tree. Vision hardly even withstands any impacts from Pymtron at all actually throughout that entire run.

Vision one-shotting Iron Man in his own book was horrible writing. He goes on to one-shot practically every Avenger there and it's just absolute nonsense. Immortal Hulk could have been among those fighting to stop Vision and even he probably would have been one-shotted by Vision. It's also funny that you are pushing Vision's heat vision as being capable of one-shotting Iron Man when you referenced a story where, in limbo, he couldn't even do so to Baron Zemo.

Ultimately, Iron Man's versatility is too great. You can make this classic Iron Man vs current Wonder Man and Vision and I could still make a case that his versatility solos them.

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#22 Posted by Voidwatcher (52 posts) - - Show Bio

As of current status Namor is basically stronger than Thor, he no sold everything avengers threw at him and you put him near Pacific ocean he will be unstoppable. Then you have tony stark who can and has individually defeated both Simon and vison so ya team one wins handily

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#23 Posted by Supermanthor (20428 posts) - - Show Bio

Currently namor solos

On a standard level team 2

Online
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#24 Edited by Toratorn (7275 posts) - - Show Bio

@noone1996 said:

So how and when did they have the time and chance to prep against Simon? Iron Man and the Avengers are basically in shock that he attacked Avengers Mansion. Thor goes on to say, "We hoped it was false bravado" after Simon warned them. Tony then says, "We didn't think he'd actually go through with it". So they didn't prep for it before this comic.

Your logic here eludes me. Tony literally says that Simon warning them gave them chance to prepare. When did Wonder Man warn them? The previous time he attacked Avengers. It's pretty damn logical that he prepped for Simon between Simon's attacks on Avengers. So what if Iron Man "didn't think he'll go through with it"? His statement about Simon's warning is a direct indication that he didn't ignore the threat. Not only do you make Tony look like a shortsighted idiot (what happened to "better safe than sorry"?), I bet you find it very unlikely that Tony and Hank managed to assemble a plot device in a minute.

Beast goes on to ask several questions and shows that he had absolutely no idea what was happening with Simon:

You know what happens next. They look for the Revengers and find out that they're attacking Avengers Tower. We see the Avengers go to the tower and then they realize he's not there. They then go to confront Simon's press conference:

The time skip between scan 1 and 2 would have had to have been when they "prepped" or "built" the energy draining device on their way to town hall. Kind of doubt they came up with it in the time it took for Simon to make his speech there...

Your train of thought went in a completely wrong direction here.

A device which was also LITERALLY inside Stark's arm:

Not sure if you're aware of this, but his Bleeding-Edge suit armor protruded from the hollow of his bones. The technology is inside his body and morphs it. That's clearly his arm. I highly doubt McCoy built a device and had Tony implement it or place it inside of his body or arm instead of just handing it to him and making him hold it...

Yes, I know how Bleeding Edge works. And in fact, in this and your next paragraph you make a pretty good case to why it doesn't matter if it was a result of prep or when exactly it was made - the device was a part of Tony's suit in any case and I doubt he amputated it somehow. So yeah, I concede the point that Iron Man has the device and can use it.

...which brings us to my next point. In the same issue where this whole incident happened we saw that Simon left the containment the moment he wanted to do so.

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Prior to that moment Simon didn't even try to breach containment or leave. You can re-read the issue and confirm it for yourself.

Especially with his history of containing/absorbing energy beings like that already... He's managed to deconstruct the primary energy shields of the Collective by counteracting it with energy fields of his own:

Judging from what Tony and co say in that scan, Tony definitely needed prep to counter Collective. Carol mentiones that Tony got his ass kicked the first time he went up against Collective, and Tony himself says that he examined various mutant's energies prior to the second encounter with Collective. So basically, he needed to analyze external data and worked on counter-measure in his free time, as opposed to doing it mid-battle.

So he won't be able to do the same thing against Simon mid-fight. Especially considering that he, from what I gathered, never actually analyzed Simon's energies (I mention that below). And the one time he worked on countermeasure against Simon, the latter just teleported out of it without any trouble.

Even countered Spectrum by using energy which countered her wavelength:

As far as I know, Spectrum and Wonder Man's energy forms have nothing in common. Monica turns into EM radiation and is not "solid" in her energy form, while Simon's body is made out of ionic energy and is perfectly solid. He doesn't have a "wavelength" to counter. Not to mention, if FF (not Fantastic Four, FF) vol.2 #16 is to be belived, Simon's "ions" are, in fact, Pym Particles:

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And as far as I know, Tony doesn't have any way to disable, disperse or negate Pym Particles (especially not the ones working in unorthodox way, like the ones of Wonder Man). Hell, I'm 99% certain that Tony doesn't even know that Simon's powers have anything to do with Pym Particles.

Hulk is an extremely special situation. Nobody can fully cure him or get rid of his gamma radiation. Full knowledge of gamma radiation wouldn't do anything in a battle which is why Banner cannot cure himself despite being the biggest expert.

Alright, you have a point here. But getting back to the topic of Tony analyzing Simon's energy... I read the issue where that happened. Tony didn't even analyze it. He, Avengers and the rest of the world got brainwashed by Doom on literally the same day and Tony forgot all about it:

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So that particular argument is moot. And btw, can you please provide issue numbers for your scans? Blindly searching for the right issue is a bitch.

I love the passive aggressive "omission" part like I'm being dishonest.

Because you are? Your arguments make me think that you didn't even read the issue in question.

He was starting to resist the control, but he did not fully get released of her control yet. That happens in the next page:

He was resisting that control ever since the first fight, since the moment Hawkeye shot him with a tracker.

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He actually grabs his neck and squeezes on it which does absolutely nothing to his suit. After squeezing for a bit, Tony's pleading leads to Simon resisting which then loosens the grip. It's not like he grabbed Iron Man's neck and barely had a grip on it because the mind-control was broken. That's not what happened.

Tony was getting choked out, that much is obvious from him pleading. If Simon was actually completely brainwashed and didn't loosen his grip, Tony would be dead right there. And the whole sequence barely even lasted 5 seconds. So basically, you're trying to use a moment where Tony almost bit the dust in a couple of seconds and was only saved because Simon resisted the brainwashing as a proof that Tony's suit is durable enough to protect him from Wonder Man. Kinda counterproductive, if you ask me.

Not to mention, Simon was pretty much tanking all of Tony's attacks without any damage in that instance too. So bringing it up is twice as counterproductive for your argument.

Cool. Some statement from Stark claiming that he can't take much more, despite being uninjured, undamaged, and nearly unaffected, should be held in lower regard than Stark's own statement. Seems legit.

...Stark's statement should be held in lower regard than Stark's statement? What?

Just the fact that Tony said that he "can't take much more" is a proof that he wasn't "uninjured, undamaged and nearly unaffected" by itself.

His powers turning on and off at random times means I cannot use the War Machine and Iron Man instances?

Only the War Machine instance. Nega-bomb hit Simon in issue #9, the fight against IM was in issue #2, while the encounter against WM happened in issue #23. And no, it's not the only reason, but I'll get to that a bit later.

His powers were not fluctuating or disrupting at all when he fought them, so it's irrelevant. It's not like his base stats went lower when his powers actually were working. There's no evidence of that.

Oh, are you sure about that? Because issue 15 of Wonder Man's run gives us a glimpse of Wonder Man being at full power. And it's a faaaaaaaaar cry from what we saw in that instance with War Machine.

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He owns a clone of Professor Hulk in 2 hits, clone of Hercules in 3 hits (here's the third one), puts Drax on his knees with one hit and decapitates his own clone. And we saw in other issues and tie-ins of Infinity War that the clones are comparable to originals in stats (we saw Thing have extended fight with his own clone, we saw Iron Man get owned by his clone, we saw Thanos struggle with his clone until Sue Richards turned the tide, etc.).

So here's a question for you. Do you really think that War Machine is durable enough to no sell, or hell, at least survive hits from Wonder Man performing on the level shown in issue 15?

This is the same Wonder Man that went on to fight Professor Hulk and Furor (a character who was able to fight both Banner and Simon at the same time).

No it's freaking not. Encounter with WM - issue 23. Simon gets enchanced - end of issue #25. Fight against Hulk and Furor - issues 26 and 27.

Not to mention, I love how you think that same Simon who could got toe to toe with Professor Hulk got his hits no sold by War Machine while the former was going nuts, and think that it's a legit durability showing for War Machine.

You're oversimplifying his power issues. They weren't fluctuating at all when he fought Tony or Rhodes. That's a convenient excuse to tell yourself though because otherwise this feat would make the idea that Wonder Man can two-shot Iron Man look like a joke:

I mean the guy is mentally unstable and losing control of himself (so much so that he begs them to amputate his own hand), and War Machine doesn't even grunt in pain from these hits. Not even so much as a dent on the helmet. I guess it would make sense to make up the fact that Simon's base stats were lower to try and make sense of the shitty writing of Wonder Man treating Tony like a street leveler because this completely contradicts that idea.

Aaaaaand here comes yet another reason why that War Machine instance is worthless to your argument (which one that is already, sixth?). You claim that Wonder Man is unstable and has no control of himself and therefore that little skimrish means that Iron Man and his knockoffs can no sell hits from Simon who is going all-out. So here's a funny set of scans for you. These scans depict a regular human surviving a beatdown from Simon who is similarly going nuts (issues 16-17):

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And here similarly unhinged Simon beats up USAgent, from issue 17:

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So a question. Does it mean that USAgent and random human are about as tough as War Machine since they managed to survive beatdowns from unhinged Simon? Or maybe, just maybe, Simon, despite not being right in the head, had enough common sense left in himself to pull his punches and not kill his opponents on all 3 occasions (War Machine one included)? You know, kind of like when he had enough sense to not kill anyone that another time when he was going nuts?

Yet in that very scan you posted Iron Man is blocking and shrugging off a blood-lusted blow from Simon.

Blocking =/= shrugging off. The fact that he decided to block the hit instead of taking it head on says that Iron Man didn't want to get hit straight-up.

It's even implied that they fight a bit off-panel as well after Wonder Man flies through that cliff. Tony's inner dialogue really isn't relevant.

"What character says doesn't mean shit, my headcannons say othervise!". Come on, don't be ridiculous.

There are times when he's not confident and he ends up surprising himself.

Not when his other showings against Simon (like, literally every other showing) confirms that same fact. Two showings when he got his ass wrecked, two showing where everything got no sold, the one where he "couldn't take much more" after getting hit 3 times, the one where he was almost choked to death and would have kicked the bucket if Simon didn't loosen his grip, that one where he was restrained with one arm while Simon was busy kicking the tar out of other people, the one where Simon was tearing Tony's armors apart...

If you want to play the "not confident" part, then give good enough evidence that Tony wasn't feeling confident in that issue. Othervise it's just grasping at straws. Not to mention, literally a panel later Simon no sells IM's full power repulsors, which kinda proves that the whole "Tony can't match Simon" thing.

Ultimately, yeah, he knows he's not a match for Wonder Man physically. He's a powerhouse. But the idea that he can get fodderized and shrugged off like a street leveler is just ridiculous. He can physically hold his own. Kind of like he does against most high tiers.

One doesn't need to be a street leveler to get his ass kicked by a high tier. Sure, he can hold his own. For about 10 seconds. More than that and it's lights out for Tony.

Also, not sure if you're aware of this or not, but Tony doesn't only have one or two settings on his repulsors and uni-beam. He can vary it based on percentages and I highly doubt he was hitting a mind-controlled Simon, whom he didn't want to fight, with lethal force.

I'm not sure if you read the scan I posted or just decided to ignore the part that was inconvinient to you. This part.

FULL. POWER. REPULSOR. RAYS.
FULL. POWER. REPULSOR. RAYS.

He can't be hitting Simon with lethal force simply because he is not powerful enough to do that.

He's even admitted that he subconsciously holds back against the Hulk because he realized that there was still a good man inside.

Sub-consciousness means shit when he flat out states that he was using full power repulsors.

Written from the same stupid arc where he gets fodderized and no-sold.

So pretty much like every other encounter Simon and Tony had, huh?

Pretty sure even Beast lasted longer than he did.

As a matter of fact, he didn't. Beast went down in 2 attacks as well.

Lol you're unironically using this instance as evidence of Iron Man's inferiority? The same armors that were getting taken out by regular bullets

Ain't anything normal about Ares' bullets.

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Incredible Hercules #113

That's Hercules, if you couldn't tell. And before you bring up anything about Hydra's blood, the blood was inside of bullets, so it's not like it was enchancing their penetrative properties or anything like that.

and Ares' footsteps?

Let's be honest, Bendis (and Tony) was hyping up Ares as some legit powerhouse. With a description like that it's no wonder he can bust Iron Man's armors like they aren't even there. I mean, seriously, look at this shit.

Your argument kind of falls flat when you take into consideration the fact that even Carol was one-shotting and tearing in half these fodder armors. These suits were written as fodder.

*obligatory joke that Iron Man is fodder*

But seriously though, Carol is about the only person who had no business busting these armors. Wonder Man has feats that suggest he can do that, Ares was hyped as a serious heavy hitter, and Sentry is... Sentry.

Speaking of being lucky by only being hit once:

'Nuff said.

I mean, they were clearly hit by different guns... This comparison is not valid.

But seriously though, I really doubt a second blow would have taken him out in the scans you posted since he tanked that first hit from him just fine. No damage or injury.

Also, it seemed like the undead characters that Immortus brought back to life from Avengers 132 were unable to be killed or taken down due to the odd effects of limbo on the dead. Kang even says that they cannot be slain:

This is further backed up when you actually look at all of the undead characters fighting the Avengers:

Pretty obvious that the only reason Iron Man couldn't do anything more than knock Simon down in this arc was because he was undead and in limbo. Even look at the dialogue between Clint and Tony:

"I can knock him down -- but he keeps getting right back up again!" Not really sure why he'd be so surprised by that? If Simon was just "too durable" then why would he be so surprised? Just a little odd, but Hawkeye then goes on to say, "Then -- maybe this really is limbo, like Kang claimed. Anything can happen in a nutty place like this!" Stark agrees and goes on to say that if that's the case, the best course of action is for Stark to hold off the undead and unbeatable legion while Hawkeye finds the other Avengers, relays that information, and then makes a final last stand against the "undead devils".

Them being undead and in limbo is why Stark couldn't do anything to Simon in this story. It's painfully obvious.

That's all good and you would have had a point with these arguments... That is, if we didn't explicitly see Wonder Man repeatedly get hurt in the same arc.

Hurts his hand punching max density Vision:

This happens in the same issue where Iron Man can't do shit to him, btw.
This happens in the same issue where Iron Man can't do shit to him, btw.

Frankenstein hurts Simon's hand as well in the next issue:

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And finally, Simon gets his ass kicked by Vision:

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Simon gets up only 3 pages later:

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So yeah, looks like another case of Iron Man not being powerful enough to affect Simon with his repulsors. And with added benefit of reinforcing my "Vision can fold Tony in half too" argument.

Again, crap writing. Wonder Man treated Tony like he was Spider-Man or something.

And once again, one doesn't have to be Spider-Man level to get fodderized by Simon. Namor was wrecked by Simon too once, you know. And Giant-Man. And Atlas. And Ms. Marvel. And Grim Reaper. And Red Hulk. And Ultron that one time... See where I'm going with this?

Like I said before, his neck is being squeezed in a death grip for brief moments and Stark isn't phased by it.

This again? Tony would have died if WM didn't stop squeezing.

When he loosens his grip, Tony is able to kick him away, but he really shouldn't be capable of tearing the suit apart like it's paper. However, I'm just repeating myself here. Let's compare how he did against Arsenal:

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Good thing Iron Man, the second most powerful Avenger, was there.

More like second most egotistical Avenger. Oh and yeah, it's not like there is anything to compare here. Both Simon and Tony get hit by the bastard once and tank it, and Simon gets KOed by an attack that Tony wasn't hit by. Not to mention, Simon didn't even get the chance to hit Arsenal here.

Wonder Man goes up against him another time too:

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Doesn't do so good.

And Iron Man didn't even get hit once here, so once again, the scans are completely useless. Though I did check the issue... And Iron Man was just backhanded once and then ran away. While Wonder Man tanked a chest blaster and only afterwards was KOed by a solid hit. So the comparison is not valid once again.

Yeah, he no-sold bullets and missiles.

And leg repulsors!

Real impressive. Meanwhile, he tanks two hits from Wonder Man without issues.

Two hits from extremely casual Wonder Man.

All while not even using Stark tech.

You're saying it like the armor not having Stark tech makes it intristically worse than any other armor. At the very least that armor should have been better than the previous WM suit. Wouldn't make sense for him to give him a new armor shittier than the old one.

Not really a good example. Especially since this non-Stark tech War Machine easily tanked two punches from Wonder Man when Iron Man "couldn't".

May have something to do with IM having to deal with brainwashed WM who is not pulling his punches (or alternatively, WM dealing with unmanned suits), while Rhodey had to deal with morals-on Wonder Man who didn't even look like he is trying very hard.

Now let's compare how an obsolete Iron Man armor that's low on power compares to that very same War Machine armor:

Would you look at that? He actually managed to damage and breach the armor. He wasn't even trying to defeat Rhodey either. Just trying to open up the suit a bit so he couldn't follow him underwater.

Speaking of omission of context... He needed to redirect pretty much everything besides his life support into that blast, and all the damage he did was cosmetic at best.

The fact that he tanked a hit from Simon is more impressive than you know.

Where did you see him tanking a hit? All he did on-panel was grab him and get away.

Also, it's fairly obvious that he didn't "off-panel" him as, IIRC, Wonder Man ends up getting arrested in that story and Osborn is fine.

See, that's a problem with you. I provide all the issue numbers, but you don't even bother checking them. If you actually read the comic (it's only 3 goddamn issues long), you'd know that Lethal Legion's plan worked, Osborn was captured, but then one of them freed Osborn, who called Dark Avengers on their asses and only then they got captured. That was how Osborn looked the next time we see him chronologically after WM took him away:

Issue 3
Issue 3

Now a little bit of speculation. No one in Lethal Legion, except for Wonder Man (and Absorbing Man, but he needs his ball and chain for that, something he explicitly didn't have on that occasion) could fly. WM was the one who took Osborn away. The rest still had Dark Avengers to deal with and also needed whatever time they needed to get away to their hideout. Therefore, he was 1v1 with Osborn for quite a while. And seeing how Iron Man armors fared against Simon in the past? I don't think Simon needed to wait for the rest of Legion to come back and help him beat Osborn. Hell, you admitted yourself that Iron Man is not as strong as Simon, so it's pretty logical to conclude that, with all the time he had on hand, he had more than enough chances to dismantle Osborn.

You can call it a win for Simon if you want. But I doubt it was easy otherwise he wouldn't have been gone for so long.

...what are you even talking about? Have been gone for so long... where? Who? What?

Also, I love that you, who thinks that Osborn's suit is so pathetic that it struggled with Mark I (something I'll get to a bit later) and analogous suits are fodder for Ms. Marvel and Black Panther, thinks that Simon would have any trouble with it. That's either some insane high balling of anything Iron Man-relared, or some insane lowballing of Wonder Man. Or both at the same time. And that's despite the fact that we saw Simon decapitate Mark I with a punch on-panel. But I guess that was PIS because Mark I is stronk and WM is not allowed to stomp Iron Man even though he did that several times already, right?

The reason I don't care is because although Osborn was using Stark tech and actual Iron Man armors, he could not get the proper power levels and yields correct. He couldn't replicate the arc reactor battery power sources. These Iron Patriot armors were Osborn made shit.

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No mention of the suit itself being less durable here. It's not like the metal of the suit gets weaker without proper energy source.

Now let's take a look at how he handles Iron Man's cave armor:

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Not only does he tank several hits from the Iron Patriot, but he overpowers it.

Norman ends up winning this fight, but the fact that Tony did so well in such obsolete armor is a feat in itself. Especially since Stark was going brain-dead at the time.

Winning the fight? Osborn stomped him. Plain and simple. The only reason it took so long was because Osborn was taking his time and screwing around, something he said himself. Every casual attack that Osborn landed had Tony bleed inside the suit. And Mark I catching Osborn's fist with two arms and holding him back for 2 panels is not "overpowering" (btw, didn't you claim that Mark II can arm wrestle with Thor? Yet now you're making it look like Mark I holding back Iron Patriot's fist is such a great feat. Or are you implying that the gap between Mark I and II is so big that the former gets wrecked by sub-Ms. Marvel/Black Panther suit while the latter can match Thor?).

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Oh, and by the way, this Iron Patriot armor is the same variation of the red, white, and blue drones that the Hulk went up against and fodderized.

Hulk tends to fodderize every IM armor he comes across. Even Hulkbusters. Especially Hulkbusters. I bet you know where these scans come from yourself.

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So it's not like Iron Patriots getting fodderized by Hulk is a good indicator of them being garbage.

Same ones during Hickman's run too that were getting one-shotted by Black Panther, Captain Britain, Ms. Marvel, etc.

Ms. Marvel sure loves busting various IM-related armors. And I still wonder what made you think that, if IP suit is actually sub-Black Panther/Captain Britain/Ms. Marvel level, it can give Simon "a hard time".

As a matter of fact, I remember Osborn fodderizing Tiger Shark and participating in beatdown of Thor. So the suit is definitely not a pushover like you claim it is.

Yeah, he's stronger than Iron Man. Overpowering him with one arm as he fights off two other mid tiers is a bit much,

I've yet to see a convincing argument for why is this too much. All you have going for your argument is that fight from WM #2, where Tony couldn't do shit, was getting manhandled, got hit 3 times and couldn't take much more, and in rematch almost got choked to death, and that "fight" against War Machine, where there was so much context that it might have not even happened at all. And both of these were before Simon got enchanced as well.

Also, Charcoal clashed with Atlas several times, so it's not like he is Ms. Marvel lvl garbage either.

but he's definitely capable of restraining Tony. Especially in one of his oldest suits. I admit that Iron Man is not physically equal with Wonder Man. The thing you don't seem to get about Iron Man, and why I like him so much, is that he makes up for it with his intellect and versatility. He doesn't need to be physically stronger or more durable than Simon to beat him.

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I mean just look at how well Ionic beings stood up to his sonic attacks. Simon had Stark tech noise cancelling earplugs and he was still in agony. That's not the only time his sonics were shown to hurt him either. They even harmed Hercules at the same time in the third scan. I doubt he was even using his highest frequency. Just wanted to make it high enough to disable the Guardsman armors.

He literally uses maximum frequency in the first scan. Sure, that may be enough to cause Simon for a while... But what next? Sonics alone are not enough, that much is evident from the first scan. Iron Man can't KO him with physicals, can't hurt him with repulsors, can't incap him with that containment trick without Simon getting away...

He also needs to breathe:

Bullshit. He really doesn't.

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Mighty Avengers #4, Avengers West Coast #52, Wonder Man vol.2 #5, Marvel Graphic Novel #27

Which, consequently, means he can and has been affected by gaseous attacks:

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Something tells me this was before Wonder Man realized his full potential as ionic being. Or this may just be plain bad writing, depending on if these comics were released prior or after Emperor Doom graphic novel.

Attacks which Stark also has in his versatile arsenal:

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So if he fights smart instead of trying to go blow-for-blow like an idiot,

Which is what Stark seems to do most of the time? The only time he fought smart against Simon was, ironically, under Bendis.

he's more than capable of defeating Simon. Even if you don't agree about his energy disruption feats.

I don't agree that Stark has what it takes to beat Simon period.

Let's talk about him after he got "upgraded". Let's talk about how he was angry and was trying to blitz the Avengers and Iron Man's force-fields blocked the attack which led to him fleeing:

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Oof. You'll probably try to argue that his energy form was unstable and he "teleported" or "broke apart" conveniently before he hit Tony's shield, but it's obvious that he actually hit the force-field before he was removed from the area. The illustration could not be more clear about that. You can even see ripples in the side of the building from the hit.

No, I admit this is a good feat for the forcefield. Too bad that forcefields tend to not fare well against continuous assaults and eat through Iron Man's energy. Oh, and Simon can teleport too, something that gives him a chance to bypass the need to break it altogether.

We can also talk about Goliath since we're talking about not being able to put down ionic empowered beings. Iron Man has actually one-shotted him before:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. And speaking of bad writing (about time I used that excuse as well, don't you think?). You think that Iron Man one-shotting Erik Josten is a legit feat, right?

The same Josten who no sold all of Iron Man's attacks the first time they fought and stomped him with one toss?

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Iron Man Annual #7

The same Josten who, the next time they fought, tanked Iron Man's every hit, and the latter needed to explicitly go for his insides to KO him because he couldn't put him down otherwise?

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Iron Man #206

And the same Josten who took out 76% of his systems with a single stomp and then proceeded to nigh-no sell a hit from him?

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New Thunderbolts #14

This Erik Josten? Don't you feel a tiny little bit hypocritical bringing up Iron Man one-shotting Goliath as a legit feat for Tony (when he explicitly failed to do that 3 other times they fought and was either stomped or needed to resort to internal attacks) while simultaniously dismissing every time Wonder Man looked superior to Tony's armors? Because you really should.

Granted, he did need to ambush him while invisible, but I still think it's pretty impressive.

Impressive to the point of it being inconsistent, I'd say.

Even relevant too. Look at Extremis Iron Man using stealth:

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Ok.

So maybe if Iron Man really is nothing more than just a street leveler to Wonder Man and he's really capable of casually folding Tony in half, two-shotting him, no-selling his best repulsors, or tearing his chestplate off with ease like you, for whatever reason, think he's capable of doing

For whatever reason? Maybe because he did that already, multiple times in fact? I love how you supposedly argue for consistency yet adamantly ignore that Simon no sold Iron Man's best attacks, overpowered him and stomped him and his armors on multiple occasions. All while bringing up that one time when Iron Man one-shot Wonder Man-lvl character (Erik Josten) and pretending that it's perfectly consistent when it's actaully the opposite of consistent.

then I'm sure Stark will be smart enough to realize that he's outmatched and then just turn invisible and spam other abilities. I'm sure Simon has all sorts of counters for all of Stark's versatile tricks and weapons, right?

As we have already determined, yes, at least the ones you mentioned. The only thing relevant enough that you brought up was sonics, and even then it's not enough to bring Simon down. And I'm not even sure if that will work on Simon if he is in his ionic form.

First of all, I know for a fact that you admit that Civil War II was shit writing and inconsistent. What's the difference between claiming that "doesn't fit your interpretation" and Vision phasing a guy who has had intangibility countermeasures for years?

I would concede that point if you prove that Ghost's intangibility has the same mechanics as Vision's intangibility.

But even then, I doubt Vision is dumb enough to attack Iron Man with phasing after the way he got owned trying to do that in ANAD Avengers.

Wow. I'm lying now? Actually buddy, the Children's Crusade was a prequel event that was supposed to have taken place right before the Civil War happened. The timeline on the story was before the Stanford tragedy and Registration Act occurred, but also right after House of M occurred. As I type this out, I will look for more evidence to back my claim, but basic logic and knowledge of the story is proof enough. The Avengers still being a team, no mention of the Registration Act, Thor being missing, Iron Man still donning his Extremis armor, no Bucky Captain America, Red Hulk not being apart of the Avengers, Wonder Man being alive and on their side instead of against them/forming Revengers (which was what was happening with him during 2010), and Captain America still being alive and in charge would indicate that this happened right before Civil War. This likely would have happened right around the time that Iron Man's Execute Program storyline was occurring since the main Avengers lineup seems to be Extremis Iron Man, Wolverine, Captain America, Spider-Man, Luke Cage, and Ms. Marvel. So yes, this did seem to happen before Civil War. Thus, this is inconsistent.

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUULSHIT.

Oh god, where do I start... I'll start with the obvious. Children's Crusade issue #9 gave us the death of Cassie Lang. Cassie Lang who, as it happened, managed to live through Civil War, Initiative Program and Secret Invasion:

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Civil War #7, Avengers: The Initiative #8, Secret Invasion #7

Then there's a fact that X-Factor, who appeared in the series, had Shatterstar in their ranks. Same Shatterstar who didn't join the team until 2009 (2 years after CW ended).

Then there's a point, also from 9th issue, about Young Avengers disbanding, and we see several events passing by, namely Spider-Island, Schism and return of Johhny Storm from Negative Zone, all events that occured in 2011. So why are these events shown instead of, I dunno, Civil War, Secret Invasion, World War Hulk? Because these events have already happened at that point.

Even if it happened after Civil War that doesn't really help your argument anyway since that would just prove that Tony fixed his armor and created countermeasures since the events of that storyline.

Even if you reach, his armor is still perfectly functional and in no way affected the same way as he was in Civil War. I personally think that electricity emanating from his armor and Tony just standing there is more evidence of the futility of the attack more than anything, but I really don't need to make that argument as we see in the very next page that Stark and his armor is fine and perfectly functional. Even capable of flight. That trick won't and shouldn't work again.

That's only true if Vision in Children's Crusade was targetting Iron Man's armor and not his actual body. Considering that Vision wasn't owned when he tried that, Iron Man mustn't have installed countermeasures to phasing at that point yet. Which means that there's nothing stopping Vision from plunging his hand into Tony's head or heart and solidifying it slightly to KO him.

But once again, this whole argument is pointless since modern IM has countermeasures against phasing and Vision knows it himself.

Don't take my word for this, but I recall an author statement or explanation given somewhere about Vision disrupting Tony's suit having to do solely with the fact that, in the Marvel universe, it's established that intangibility/phasing through Marvel tech disrupts it. I cannot prove this though, so we can move on from this part.

Pretty sure that's only a case with Kitty Pryde's phasing, but I'm not sure about either, so yeah, let's move on.

Point is, if that was the case, the second scan proves that intangibility/phasing alone doesn't disrupt his modern armor. Do I agree that it's different when Vision puts his hand in and solidifies it? Yes, but as far as I know, he simply phased through without solidifying his hand. Solidifying his arm into Stark's body would have caused immense amounts of pain instead of just causing electricity to shoot out and "compromising his armor" like Vision says after he's done.

Ok.

Either way, still inconsistent nonsense:

As if Stark doesn't have an intangible villain that he's consistently dealt with in the past...

Does Ghost's phasing have the same mechanics as Vision's? If not, that might explain why Vision wasn't owned the same way during CW and Children's Crusade.

Iron Man has technopathy with his Extremis armor. Anything digital can be commanded and controlled. I see no reason why Vision couldn't be hacked.

As far as I know, Vision is made with usage of Ultron's tech, something Stark had plenty of trouble hacking IIRC. Could be wrong about that one tho.

Also, now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure Vision showed his own techopathic capabilities during Avengers AI run. I'll need to re-read it to be sure though.

Not only that, but he's also susceptible to EMP's. During that Pymtron run you are talking so much about, he's afraid of being EMP'd. There was even a situation where he had to shut down before Tony used his EMP on Doom's tech because he knew the effect it would have:

Not sure about the situation with Doom (can't be arsed to search for that comic, how 'bout a citation next time?), but the EMP in issue with Pymtron was not just a random-ass EMP, but Pymtech designed specifically to wreck AI's. IIRC, it's the same device that Pym was going to use against Ultron in Rage of Ultron. But don't quote me on that. Point is, that was a device that Stark doesn't have analogues for.

As for Pymtron, you are MASSIVELY oversimplifying what happened. First of all, Vision traded blows with Ultron for about 5 pages. He was getting dominated when, IIRC, Quicksilver comes in to give Vision a chance to recover.

Bull. If anyone was dominating in a fight, it was Vision.

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Notice that Vision tanks every hit without any indication he damaged. After he gets knocked away (because there was no indication that tree slam hurt him in any way), he stays at a distance until EMP goes off.

After Pymtron wrecks Pietro, Vision admits that he is simply holding him off (for only one page) until the Hulk-Buster gets there.

Speaking of oversimplifying... I like how you glossed over the fact that Vision and Ultron locked hands and couldn't overpower each other like it's something utterly insignificant.

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Maybe it's because Vision's hands proved to be much more of an obstacle to him than Hulkbuster's whole body?

If the Hulk-Buster had been trading blows and stalemating Ultron like the Vision had been doing, I'm sure it would have lasted much longer, but that wasn't the plan.

You're sure... And yet that's not what was shown. Ultron damaged the suit with his first blow and then proceeded to tear it apart like wet paper. Vision certainly took his hits much better.

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The plan was to keep Ultron contained within the armor and then BFR him. With Ultron inside and the HB not hitting him back, he breaks out in a couple of pages.

Because Hulkbuster hitting him back would have done so much damage to him... Sure. Ultron himself mocks the idea of Hulkbuster stopping him and Stark even agrees that no one thinks that it will beat Ultron. It was inferior to Ultron even by Tony's admission. No way it would have faired better than Vision if it decided to fight head-on.

Essentially, by him being inside the armor he's getting a high amount of free shots without interruption (that wasn't the case when Vision fought Pym). The funniest thing is that if you actually count the amount of times Vision tanked a hit from Pymtron before Quicksilver steps in to help, it's only 3 times. One of which was with a tree. Vision hardly even withstands any impacts from Pymtron at all actually throughout that entire run.

More bullshit. They were clearly trading blows during the flight sequence and Vision was even blasted by Ultron point-blank. The fact that you're ignoring the fact that Vision pretty much tanked these hits with no damage while Hulkbuster got shredded goes on to show how badly Stark's suit performed compared to Vision.

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Also, I can bring up Rage of Ultron, where Vision, who was already pretty damaged at that point, tanked several blasts and hits from Pymtron and was only knocked down for two pages (and not shredded completely like a certain metallic suit).

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Also, that moment when Vision grappled with Ultron and they both couldn't overpower each other shows that they were indeed comparable in strength, which only confirms that Vision would be able to shred the Hulkbuster with the same amount of effort as Ultron.

And finally, there was the second part of the fight when Ultron busted out of Hulkbuster, where Vision one-sidedly pummeled him and held him down with one hand (and then leg):

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Vision one-shotting Iron Man in his own book was horrible writing.

I'm sensing a pattern here. Every time Iron Man gets stomped is horrible writing, amiright?

He goes on to one-shot practically every Avenger there and it's just absolute nonsense.

First thing first, the only important people he one-shots physically were Jane and Sam, the rest were either too frail to matter, were off-paneled by unknown means or were incapacitated by phasing. The only one that stretches the boundaries of possible is Jane, and even then I think Vision could have realistically done that with a clever application of flight and desnity change (kind of like when he KOed Nefaria by dropping on him from height while maintaining maximum density).

Immortal Hulk could have been among those fighting to stop Vision and even he probably would have been one-shotted by Vision.

Now you're just spouting nonsense. We all saw how Vision fared against IH. Then again, even then he managed to perform better than Hulkbuster, lol.

It's also funny that you are pushing Vision's heat vision as being capable of one-shotting Iron Man when you referenced a story where, in limbo, he couldn't even do so to Baron Zemo.

His blasts can hurt Wonder Man, Thing, Jane Foster and Pymtron, so clearly his blasting power isn't street lvl like you're trying to imply with that lowball.

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Avengers #158, Marvel Fanfare #14, All-New All-Different Avengers #5, Rage of Ultron

And seeing how all four of them are more durable that Iron Man, Vision one-shotting Tony with a blast is not that much of a stretch.

Ultimately, Iron Man's versatility is too great. You can make this classic Iron Man vs current Wonder Man and Vision and I could still make a case that his versatility solos them.

And you would be wrong, since Iron Man's not going to bust out EMPs/sonics/whatever unorthodox weaponry he has as his first move and will most likely engage in blasting/punching first. Which will lead to him getting promptly torn apart.

This was a bitch to type.

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#25 Posted by Supermanthor (20428 posts) - - Show Bio

Currently namor solos

On a standard level team 2

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#26 Posted by The_Red_Devil (4974 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 even on standard levels.

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#27 Posted by Noone1996 (11865 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn: Good post. A lot of lowballing but most of it is easily explainable. I'll respond when I get the time.

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#28 Posted by Supermanthor (20428 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by Toratorn (7275 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanthor: will you stop quoting yourself every time this thread is bumped? It's annoying and you look like a goddamn idiot doing this.

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#30 Edited by Toratorn (7275 posts) - - Show Bio

@noone1996 said:

@toratorn: Good post. A lot of lowballing but most of it is easily explainable. I'll respond when I get the time.

Thanks. Ironic, but alright. And please, for the love of god, provide the goddamn citations when you respond.

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#31 Edited by Supermanthor (20428 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn said:

@supermanthor: will you stop quoting yourself every time this thread is bumped? It's annoying and you look like a goddamn idiot doing this.

first mind your own business please

second if you had to speak with me try to speak softly . its one of your main problems

@rogueshadow@jedixman

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#32 Posted by Toratorn (7275 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn said:

@supermanthor: will you stop quoting yourself every time this thread is bumped? It's annoying and you look like a goddamn idiot doing this.

first mind your own business please

second if you had to speak with me try to speak softly . its one of your main problems

@rogueshadow@jedixman

Thanks for calling mods, hopefully they'll ban your ass for spamming.

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#33 Edited by Supermanthor (20428 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn said:
@supermanthor said:
@toratorn said:

@supermanthor: will you stop quoting yourself every time this thread is bumped? It's annoying and you look like a goddamn idiot doing this.

first mind your own business please

second if you had to speak with me try to speak softly . its one of your main problems

@rogueshadow@jedixman

Thanks for calling mods, hopefully they'll ban your ass for spamming.

kek perfect example of choping an axe in your own leg

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#34 Posted by rogueshadow (29379 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn said:

@supermanthor: will you stop quoting yourself every time this thread is bumped? It's annoying and you look like a goddamn idiot doing this.

first mind your own business please

second if you had to speak with me try to speak softly . its one of your main problems

@rogueshadow@jedixman

While repeated quoting is unnecessary, insults are equally as unnecessary. Please do not do so again @toratorn.

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#35 Posted by Toratorn (7275 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by Mooty_Pass (9905 posts) - - Show Bio

Just here to Learn......interesting post.

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#37 Posted by Chad_Duby (5681 posts) - - Show Bio

Namor solos.

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#38 Posted by Toratorn (7275 posts) - - Show Bio

@chad_duby: how exactly is he going to solo Vision? He has no counters to phasing.

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#39 Posted by Chad_Duby (5681 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Edited by Toratorn (7275 posts) - - Show Bio

@chad_duby: Namor is not Immortal Hulk and doesn't posess his strength. Or his quick thinking.

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#41 Posted by Chad_Duby (5681 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn: He was crushing Thor’s new hammer and ironman’s glove. He sure does possess enough strength to crush Vision and he is not an idiot. In fact he was really quick. He managed to punch Thanos so that he bled. That decision required quick thought.

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#42 Posted by Toratorn (7275 posts) - - Show Bio

@chad_duby: crushing a featless uru hammer (something he didn't even do, the hammer was fine) and Iron Man's armor is not impressive. The impressive part was that he managed to stop Thor's hammer mid-swing. You know who else could do that? Count Nefaria. You know who couldn't one-shot Vision? Count. Nefaria. And that was basically Namor's best feat there. His hits didn't even KO Captain Marvel or damage She-Hulk.

Also, I don't see how punching Thanos required quick thought. All he did was take him by surprise. And unlike Hulk, who has extreme regen, Namor won't be able to tank the phasing himself and will get knocked out the moment Vision turns solid, without any opportunity to strike back.

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#43 Posted by jaakor (316 posts) - - Show Bio

Standard levels, team 1 easily, a teenage namor already humiliated wonder man, current namor solos

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#44 Posted by Toratorn (7275 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaakor: speaking of humiliation...

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#45 Posted by Voidwatcher (52 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn: the current namor is much stronger than the classic one though

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#46 Edited by Toratorn (7275 posts) - - Show Bio

@voidwatcher: I know, but both me and Jaakor were talking about pre-Aaron Namor. And the thread was made way before Aaron's Avengers, so I don't see why everyone brings up current Namor anyway.

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#47 Posted by Voidwatcher (52 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn: I mean this is the current version so we kinda bring it up again and again cause at extremis iron man was a different thing from his bleeding edge or even his classic times. Why bring those up then

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#48 Edited by Toratorn (7275 posts) - - Show Bio

@voidwatcher: if we assume it's current Namor, then team 1 has an unfair advantage, which makes the match less fair and less interesting to debate. Thus I'm debating standard versions of characters (that goes for Tony's armors as well - nobody brings up stuff like Godkiller armor here, only the standard suits).

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#49 Posted by Comic_Crusader (102 posts) - - Show Bio

Tough. I'm not incredibly knowledgeable on Wonder Man so I could be convinced. But for now I give it to Iron Man & Namor

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#50 Posted by Battle123axe (9056 posts) - - Show Bio

@toratorn said:

@voidwatcher: if we assume it's current Namor, then team 1 has an unfair advantage, which makes the match less fair and less interesting to debate. Thus I'm debating standard versions of characters (that goes for Tony's armors as well - nobody brings up stuff like Godkiller armor here, only the standard suits).

Also current vision is basically dead (he was still durable enough to take punches from hercules though), And current Wonder man is a pacifist.