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#1 Edited by Karkus (448 posts) - - Show Bio
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Rules:

  • No Prep
  • No Morals
  • Both Sides Bloodlusted
  • No BFR
  • Post-HBTC Buu Saga Versions of Goten and Trunks
  • No SSJ
  • No Fusion
  • Fight takes place on Indestructible deserted Earth

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#3 Posted by SkySanji (3414 posts) - - Show Bio

@karkus: is this pre or post Hyperbolic time chamber?

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#4 Edited by Karkus (448 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18018 posts) - - Show Bio

Goten and trunks were able to hold their own with android 18 even before they went super saiyan....I don't see how they don't wreck freiza.

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#6 Edited by AlexTheBoss (15747 posts) - - Show Bio

In character I would say Frieza, but bloodlusted they have a chance. It's really hard to say as their power is never exactly specified. In the Buu saga they were hyped up to be strong, but in Super they were treated like trash.

I'll say Frieza due to his discs that follow opponents, which will likely work against kids, him destroying the planet if he has to, having more moves, having more experience, and having a more clear indication of where he stands in the verse.

I also find it hard to believe they are stronger than namek ssj Goku, and logically kid Trunks should not be stronger than future Trunks, who was older and had to survive fighting the androids his entire life, and future Trunks was comparable to namek saga ssj Goku. Plus base Trunks could barely move in 150x gravity, while arrival namek Goku could casually move in 100x gravity, meaning he is arguably physically weaker than namek arrival Goku, and at best 50% stronger (physically). There only real fight against an opponent stronger than Frieza was 18, who stomped them while they were in base, and when they went ssj both of them together matched her (anime) and in the manga she just exasperated them before they actually fought here. In Super they had trouble with a snake, and Goten had to contemplate using a kamehameha against it, while Frieza casually ripped off Nail's arm and could clearly do the same to a snake, even while in his first form. Then they were considered useless by Vegeta for the tournament if they aren't fused. Also when Bulma said her son killed Frieza, Jaco said it was impossible for a kid to beat Frieza, and she said "of course" and that it was her son from the future.

Really nothing puts them above Frieza besides a few hype statements in the Buu saga.

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#7 Posted by AlexTheBoss (15747 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: They got completely wrecked by here, and that's why she thought they were still humans. This is the whole fight while they were in base.

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#8 Posted by EmpressOfDread (11966 posts) - - Show Bio

Android 18 owned the little kids. Frieza schools them and since no restriction is there he can planet bust his way out.

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#9 Posted by jashro44 (51765 posts) - - Show Bio

Android 18 owned the little kids. Frieza schools them and since no restriction is there he can planet bust his way out.

Android 18 is a lot stronger than this version of frieza.

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#10 Posted by EmpressOfDread (11966 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:
@empressofdread said:

Android 18 owned the little kids. Frieza schools them and since no restriction is there he can planet bust his way out.

Android 18 is a lot stronger than this version of frieza.

And I'm keeping that in mind, but she held back obviously against the kids. To be clear, people started scaling her from Android 18 thats why I said, that they didn't really have an advantage on her, not that she was serious anyway.

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#11 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18018 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss said:

@thewatcherking: They got completely wrecked by here, and that's why she thought they were still humans. This is the whole fight while they were in base.

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It's been a while since I have read the buu saga but literally nothing hinted that it was a stomp. If anything your scans hurt your argument as they literally confirm that the boys were had a handicap in that fight due to their costume restricting them.

They were holding their own just fine in their base, android 18 even admitted they were powerful before they transformed into super saiyan

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As a super saiyan Trunks' blast scared 18, she even went as far as to say it was no joke and they're unbelievably strong.

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Note how Goten says "Not too strong" to trunks, reminding him to hold back.

Despite holding back with that attack, 18 literally says this was getting dangerous in the next panel.

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I don't see how you can even argue this, the kids were holding their own just fine with 18 and continually impressing her in their base form. As super saiyans(remember the multiplier is 50x base form) I have no doubt Freiza gets curbstomped if they take this seriously.

@alextheboss said:

In character I would say Frieza, but bloodlusted they have a chance. It's really hard to say as their power is never exactly specified. In the Buu saga they were hyped up to be strong, but in Super they were treated like trash.

I'll say Frieza due to his discs that follow opponents, which will likely work against kids, him destroying the planet if he has to, having more moves, having more experience, and having a more clear indication of where he stands in the verse.

I also find it hard to believe they are stronger than namek ssj Goku, and logically kid Trunks should not be stronger than future Trunks, who was older and had to survive fighting the androids his entire life, and future Trunks was comparable to namek saga ssj Goku. Plus base Trunks could barely move in 150x gravity, while arrival namek Goku could casually move in 100x gravity, meaning he is arguably physically weaker than namek arrival Goku, and at best 50% stronger (physically). There only real fight against an opponent stronger than Frieza was 18, who stomped them while they were in base, and when they went ssj both of them together matched her (anime) and in the manga she just exasperated them before they actually fought here. In Super they had trouble with a snake, and Goten had to contemplate using a kamehameha against it, while Frieza casually ripped off Nail's arm and could clearly do the same to a snake, even while in his first form. Then they were considered useless by Vegeta for the tournament if they aren't fused. Also when Bulma said her son killed Frieza, Jaco said it was impossible for a kid to beat Frieza, and she said "of course" and that it was her son from the future.

Really nothing puts them above Frieza besides a few hype statements in the Buu saga.

I also find it hard to believe they are stronger than namek ssj Goku, and logically kid Trunks should not be stronger than future Trunks, who was older and had to survive fighting the androids his entire life,

And? So what? This logic could be applied to ssj2 Gohan vs Future Gohan as well, and obviously future gohan would be obliterated by his younger counterpart.

Plus base Trunks could barely move in 150x gravity, while arrival namek Goku could casually move in 100x gravity, meaning he is arguably physically weaker than namek arrival Goku, and at best 50% stronger (physically).

And yet as a ssj he he was fast enough to tag ssj vegeta from the buu saga and tank a hit from him, which is obviously not something anyone on namek could have done. Not to mention you're ignoring the blatently obvious fact that Vegeta trained trunks after that point so that Trunks would be stronger than Goten by more than a small margin.

I don't know how much stock we should put into trunks' struggling here when in the andriod saga Vegeta was able to train at 400x earth's gravity(before going ssj)yet was having somewhat of a workout training at 150x gravity in the buu saga.

There only real fight against an opponent stronger than Frieza was 18, who stomped them while they were in base, and when they went ssj both of them together matched her (anime) and in the manga she just exasperated them before they actually fought here.

She didn't stomp them, in the anime they were somewhat evenly matched in base and in the manga iirc. As ssj they clearly were a threat to android 18, who would one shot freiza with a glance.

Then they were considered useless by Vegeta for the tournament if they aren't fused.

So? Unless we're going to believe krillin and roshi are superior to trunks and Goten then this is a very moot point. DBS' scaling is all over the place, and hardly consistent.

Also when Bulma said her son killed Frieza, Jaco said it was impossible for a kid to beat Frieza, and she said "of course" and that it was her son from the future.

No offense but this is honestly a horrible point. Gotenks is no older than Goten/Trunks, yet he obviously would slaughter mecha Freiza and future trunks. Gohan was a kid but he was powerful enough to kill cell, Bulma and Jaco's opinions don't mean anything.

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#12 Posted by LimitlessSigil (2237 posts) - - Show Bio

Just want to add, both Trunks and Goten in the DBS Manga was capable of holding off multiple Cell Jr's which would put him way above Frieza. I'm not sure if they became stronger in DBS since the Buu Saga though so take it with a grain of salt.

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#13 Edited by Amendment50 (14992 posts) - - Show Bio

Goten and Trunks.

18 could one-shot Frieza in her sleep with both arms tied behind her back so I hardly think her performance against them can be counted as a negative.

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#14 Edited by GXrevs06 (3943 posts) - - Show Bio

Yh, the boys win. They were holding their own against a foe that could one shot Frieza in their base forms with their movements were restricted by the costume. Trunks’ held back ki attack scared the hell out of 18

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#15 Posted by Jon_Don (237 posts) - - Show Bio

Either can solo here

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#16 Edited by Thenewguysnm1 (7481 posts) - - Show Bio

Either can solo

Together they stomp

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#17 Posted by MainJP (5439 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see why they don't lolstomp.

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#18 Edited by SkySanji (3414 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: Yh thanks for that I read everything I was going to reread their fights to make an assessment

Pre Hyperbolic time chamber either ragdolls Frieza.

Post? Mismatch

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#19 Posted by AlexTheBoss (15747 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking:

a but literally nothing hinted that it was a stomp.

Except them not landing a hit on a heavily holding back 18.

If anything your scans hurt your argument as they literally confirm that the boys were had a handicap in that fight due to their costume restricting them.

No, at it shows is that while restricted they were getting stomped, that doesn't mean if they weren't restricted they still wouldn't get stomped. You said there were able to hold their own, I was just showing they didn't.

They were holding their own just fine in their base, android 18 even admitted they were powerful before they transformed into super saiyan

Ya, because she thought they were humans. Obviously they would be insanely strong compared to every other regular person in the tournament.

As a super saiyan Trunks' blast scared 18, she even went as far as to say it was no joke and they're unbelievably strong.

Despite holding back with that attack, 18 literally says this was getting dangerous in the next panel.

They are unbelievably strong, especially for children. They are basically children with nuke codes and there ins an audience below with her child in it. She has good reason to be nervous.

I don't see how you can even argue this, the kids were holding their own just fine with 18 and continually impressing her in their base form. As super saiyans(remember the multiplier is 50x base form) I have no doubt Freiza gets curbstomped if they take this seriously.

In ssj you can say they were 18 level, but they never stood a chance in their base. 18 had the clear upper hand and wasn't hit once by them while holding back.

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#20 Posted by AlexTheBoss (15747 posts) - - Show Bio

Just want to add, both Trunks and Goten in the DBS Manga was capable of holding off multiple Cell Jr's which would put him way above Frieza. I'm not sure if they became stronger in DBS since the Buu Saga though so take it with a grain of salt.

Cell jr's are known to hold back, and they are "good guys" now. I'm not sure it proves the kids are cell jr. level anymore than it proves Yamcha is.

@gxrevs06 said:

Yh, the boys win. They were holding their own against a foe that could one shot Frieza in their base forms with their movements were restricted by the costume. Trunks’ held back ki attack scared the hell out of 18

They didn't stand a chance in base. The ki blast that made 18 nervous was while in ssj, so you could argue that they win in ssj, but their base form performance is irrelevant.

@mainjp said:

I don't see why they don't lolstomp.

Read post 6, I think I make a pretty convincing argument.

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#21 Posted by EmpressOfDread (11966 posts) - - Show Bio

18 held back a lot, no reason why she could not one shot non SSJ kids, I'm having a hard time accepting the scaling being used. SSJ is a different deal altogether, anyway Frieza likely planet busts and the kids die.

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#22 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18018 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss:

Except them not landing a hit on a heavily holding back 18.

There is no evidence for her holding back heavily, even though 18 didn't know it was trunks/Goten at first she could obviously see that they were superhuman the moment the fight started. Also, the fight before they went ssj in the manga was super brief so I don't think this is a fair point. If you want to be like that then I can easily say that 18 only managed to tag the kids once in their base form(despite Goten being unable to see and trunks having a hard time moving in the mighty mask costume) and even then they easily tanked the attack. All her other attacks were blocked or dodged showing they had the speed/power to match 18, which is more than freiza could do regardless of if 18 was bloodlusted or not.

No, at it shows is that while restricted they were getting stomped, that doesn't mean if they weren't restricted they still wouldn't get stomped. You said there were able to hold their own, I was just showing they didn't.

Getting tagged once in an entire fight while handicapped and in your weakest form isn't a stomp. They clearly did hold their own just fine btw, Trunks was countering all of her attacks just fine and only got tagged when he commented on how hard it was to move in the costume.

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This isn't a stomp, this is called context. 18 couldn't touch them once without the kids costume restricting them. Also I am wondering how freiza will hurt them when they can tank hits from people that would kill freiza effortlessly.

Ya, because she thought they were humans. Obviously they would be insanely strong compared to every other regular person in the tournament.

She didn't say they were strong for humans, or relatively strong compared to other tournament participants. She said they were strong because they had the power to compete with her, which is more than what 18 would say if she were to fight freiza.

They are unbelievably strong, especially for children. They are basically children with nuke codes and there ins an audience below with her child in it. She has good reason to be nervous.

This is baseless headcanon. There is no proof she was thinking about the people in the stadium when she said that. Blowing a stadium would be pathetically weak to someone like 18, when master roshi and piccolo have blown up the moon(who when they did it would have been beyond fodder to 18). She said that blast was no joke because Trunks' blast was powerful relative to her own power, and this was without Goten's power to help(and with Trunks holding back). They obviously are far above freiza and no amount of mental gymnastics or headcanon can help you.

In ssj you can say they were 18 level, but they never stood a chance in their base. 18 had the clear upper hand and wasn't hit once by them while holding back.

As ssj they would be way above 18 due to how big of a boost ssj is(since yet again, they were comparable to her in base). But even if you refuse to believe that you have already conceded this is a mismatch against freiza because if the kids are 18 level as super saiyans then they cqb obliterate freiza. The OP never said they can't use ssj so I see no reason to ignore ssj.

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#23 Posted by Oreoghoul (1649 posts) - - Show Bio

Duo, they were holding their own against multiple Cell Jr.'s

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#24 Posted by Karkus (448 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Posted by AlexTheBoss (15747 posts) - - Show Bio

@oreoghoul: Pretty sure the Cell jr's were just playing with them.

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#27 Posted by Hope_w (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

I wanna say Trunks and gotten were about a third of the level Goku was at during his first Awakening and Goku only won by going 'further beyond' his limits. So at best they'd give him a contest until he gets mad and gives them the Xenoverse treatment.

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#28 Edited by Matthew660 (1408 posts) - - Show Bio

Goten and trunks stomp. Gotanks one shots. Android 18 is way above frieza. And goten and trunks were matching her but they lost because of the suit they were wearing which made it difficult.

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#30 Posted by cromulor (1832 posts) - - Show Bio

Base only? Lol they lose. Beerus told Goku after feeling his own Base power when they first met that he didn’t think Goku could’ve actually killed Frieza like that. And that’s Goku, a Post-Buu Saga Goku too. Y’all are really playing if you think Goten and Trunks have higher base forms than 100% Frieza, especially during their fight against 18.

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#31 Posted by Karkus (448 posts) - - Show Bio

@cromulor:

Beerus told Goku after feeling his own Base power when they first met that he didn’t think Goku could’ve actually killed Frieza like that.

The question arises if Beerus was actually feeling Goku's Full Base Power, since he didn't power up at all, and was actually hiding right before he met Beerus.

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#32 Posted by Oreoghoul (1649 posts) - - Show Bio

@oreoghoul: Pretty sure the Cell jr's were just playing with them.

Maybe. It was a really short encounter but they acted like they acted in DBZ and it did look like the Saiyan duo were holding their own very well.

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#33 Posted by Man_of_Miracles (3223 posts) - - Show Bio

@cromulor: while I agree the duo loses with only base we know that Sayains are capable of suppressing themselves to an insane level in base. Base trunks was power level 5 when Frieza read him so it's hard to say what Goku was at when Beerus said that. I seriously doubt BOS DBS Goku couldn't take Frieza.

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#34 Edited by EmpressOfDread (11966 posts) - - Show Bio

18 did hold back why would she go all out, no one was going all out in that fight, nothing was at stake. Besides they didn't beat 18. Hurting and making someone scared means you bypass their durability doesn't make you as or more powerful than them, Supergirl has done all that against Superman. But bypassing durability doesn't make you more powerful than one character or a statement from them that they are having a tough time.

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#35 Edited by biswaboxz (3456 posts) - - Show Bio

I tend to see the Duo giving a tough fight against Frieza, they were actually better opponents against the likes of 18 . If i vaguely recall she didn't recognize them as kids hence she was not holding back . But i maybe wrong about this btw .

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#36 Posted by EmpressOfDread (11966 posts) - - Show Bio

@biswaboxz: 18s character changed besides killing was against the rules in the tournament. If they fought all out the outcome would be totally different, granted we don't know what would have happened.

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#37 Posted by PreCrisisBardock (8348 posts) - - Show Bio

Goten or Trunks can solo

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#38 Posted by AlexTheBoss (15747 posts) - - Show Bio

@karkus said:

@oreoghoul@alextheboss@thewatcherking

Disallowing SSJ since it would make this fight a complete mismatch, which is not what I intended.

Wait I misread this the first time. Disallowing ssj makes this a missmatch in Frieza's favor as Beerus confirmed he was stronger than post Buu saga base Goku.

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#39 Posted by AlexTheBoss (15747 posts) - - Show Bio

I tend to see the Duo giving a tough fight against Frieza, they were actually better opponents against the likes of 18 . If i vaguely recall she didn't recognize them as kids hence she was not holding back . But i maybe wrong about this btw .

Ya, she didn't realize they were kids, she thought they were a regular human man, which is even worse. Unless you think 18 wouldn't hold back against regular humans, she was holding back.

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#40 Posted by Karkus (448 posts) - - Show Bio

@karkus said:

Disallowing SSJ since it would make this fight a complete mismatch, which is not what I intended.

Wait I misread this the first time. Disallowing ssj makes this a missmatch in Frieza's favor as Beerus confirmed he was stronger than post Buu saga base Goku.

The question arises if Beerus was actually feeling Goku's Full Base Power, since he didn't power up at all, and was actually hiding right before he met Beerus.

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#41 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18018 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see why Beerus' word is law, he only judged Goku's being able to beat freiza in due to his appearance. Wasn't Yakon compared to freiza(who Goku was beating in his base form)?

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#42 Posted by AlexTheBoss (15747 posts) - - Show Bio

@karkus: In Super after going ssj Beerus still said Frieza was the best he could do, so even if that was his suppressed ssj, it would still mean Frieza was stronger than full power base Goku. Not to mention it's clear author's intent, especially since the line showed up in both the movie and the anime, and when it showed up in the anime they doubled down with the ssj statement as well.

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#43 Posted by Karkus (448 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss:

In Super after going ssj Beerus still said Frieza was the best he could do

Link?

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#44 Posted by Man_of_Miracles (3223 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: Yeah Beerus saying that makes absolutely no sense at all since SSJ Goku post Buu should be far stronger than Namek Goku. I mean SSJ Future Trunks absolutely punked Cyborg Frieza with no effort and there is no way he is as strong as post-buu Goku.

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#45 Posted by AlexTheBoss (15747 posts) - - Show Bio

@karkus: episode 5, right after Goku goes ssj against Beerus.

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#46 Edited by Man_of_Miracles (3223 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: I'm going to look at that but you do realize that makes no sense at all right?

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#47 Posted by AlexTheBoss (15747 posts) - - Show Bio

@man_of_miracles: I agree, that was an anime only line that wasn't in the movie, so it was possible it was just added because people weren't sure if they were supposed to take Beerus' initial statement serious or not. Also technically Frieza may be the best he could do in Beerus' mind, because he did not know of Buu, and the androids and Cell weren't created while he was awake. So to him Frieza was the strongest in the universe, confirmed by the fact he lost his cool when he learned someone beat Frieza. So basically he thought no mortal could beat Frieza, meaning he was basically telling Goku beating the strongest mortal was the best he could do as a ssj, and as base he couldn't even do that.

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#48 Posted by StormShadow_X (15932 posts) - - Show Bio

This is off topic but the fact that this is debatable proves fusion is BS power up lol

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#49 Posted by Man_of_Miracles (3223 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: Ok that is a fair view. Thanks for the perspective.

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#50 Posted by SkySanji (3414 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormshadow_x: it's only debateable because this is pretty Hyperbolic Time chamber training and they can't go SSJ