N52: Cassandra Cain vs Richard Dragon

vs

Cassandra Cain vs Junior Diaz/Richard Dragon

Random Encounter

H2H

Win by any mean

I don't know Cass's new 52 feats. Junior was beating the sht out of GA and Diggle, GA is close to Batman's level in H2h or something like that so maybe junior

Nah, Ollie is not on Bats level in terms of H2H. I made this because both Diaz and Cain shared a similar ability. I found Diaz own more detailed but Im not familiar with Cass current feats either.

@bat_girl_cc Care to help Cass out?

Ollie close to Batman's level in H2H? Lol, I thought he got smashed by Cheshire. Doesn't seem close to me.

@the_kidd: I heard that New 52 GA is closer to Batman in H2h.

@staticdwanyemcduffie: He had a few good moment in Lemire's run but no.

When? I dont think they ever met in current continuity but I remember her toying with Arsenal and friends.

@the_kidd: Everybody and their sidekick seems to have the "red circle/box move reading". I have at least seen that Nightwing and Red Hood have done the same.

@somayareece: @the_kidd: Cheshire soloed Green Arrow and Red Hoods Outlaws at the same time. Jason was out of character do to a mind wipe, and Starfire required prep to take down. Still Cheshire fighting Ollie and Roy at the same time was impressive.

@allstarsuperman: Yeah, Cheshire has become a beast now. She was underused before the reboot.

I know but they rarely uses it and its not on Diaz level.

Nightwing.

I guess I forgot Ollie was one of the friends.

....

I would pick Cassandra. Her feats impressed me more.

@brucerogers:Okay, what are her feats exactly?

??

@the_kidd: Well from what I have seen, her body reading his somewhat different from the Pre-Flashpoint one and now allows her to discern weak points in a person by just a glance. Plus she pretty much wiped the floor with Nightwing and Jason when holding back. I think that is more impressive than anything Diaz as done.

@the_kidd: Ollie wasnt an outlaw, he had just come to warn Roy about a bounty put on his head.

@brucerogers: She certainly didn't "wipe the floor" with Jason. They fought for over 8 minutes and he had her dead to rights at least twice.

@allstarsuperman: Okay but she was getting most of the hits in correct?. Although my 'wiping the floor' statement was meant for Nightwing. Should have framed it properly, my bad.

@brucerogers: Not really. We only see a brief bit of the fight, yet in it, Nightwing saves her ass twice. At first Jason (off panel dropped her to the floor then) had a gun to her head, he was about to shoot her in the face when Nightwing called and distracted him. Then they fight from 8 more minutes which ends in Jason grabbing her by the throat and attempting to gut her with his arm blades. He would have succeeded if Nightwing didn't show up just in time to save her ass yet again.

You can argue that she was initially holding back. But if you actually think that she held back so much as to let herself die, then either she's an idiot or you're the crazy one.

Can't wait until Damian solos her like he does to all your favourite characters.

@allstarsuperman: Alrighty then

This Richard Dragon has not enough feats to judge how well he fights against Cass but I think she'll win.

Cassandra wins.

Dragon in a pretty good fight.

Cassandra, and it's not even close.

Cassandra.

@morpheus_: lol k

Richard is basically stated to be the best fighter in DC besides Karate Kid.

He killed the original dragon who beat shiva and bronze tiger.

His body analysis is better than hers, and although he lacks feats, he is shown to be more skilled.

So curious, what EXACTLY makes this easy for her lmfao.

@komboing: The problem is, that Richard Dragon has never fought Shiva or Ben in the New 52. Even in the pre-52 continuity, his fights against both happened in that non canon Chuck Dixon story. His combat accolades are mostly grounded in statements and reputation, rather than cold hard feats and he is nowhere near Karate Kid level.

Cass wins with ease.

If you stop with your incessant chuckling for a moment, you will realize that you are blending continuities to suit your liking. We have no information on what the Richard Dragon of this continuity ever did before encountering Diaz. But by all means, go ahead and post the original Dragon's fights with Bronze Tiger and Lady Shiva in the N52.

N52 Cassandra has already defeated Shiva after being massively tired, and in the same story Shiva one-shotted Batman twice. Comparatively, Dragon lost to Oliver and Diggle in a straight fight. I won't even comment the remark about him being the best besides Karate Kid, particularly since there is no Karate Kid post-Flashpoint. We also have absolutely no information on how he killed the original Dragon, the flashback simply shows a single panel with Dragon's silhouette as he lays dead.

Now run along to the closest respect thread you can find and fish for pre-Crisis feats, or for the non canon mini by Chuck Dixon, because I have read every single appearance Dragon has made, I know every thing you will post and I tell you right here and now, Dragon would lose to Cassandra. And you've already lost by challenging someone who knows more than you about both characters.

@morpheus_: IIRC he kinda wiped the floor with Ollie and Diggle and they only beat him with trickery. I'll have to revisit the issue.

He stomped them, Diggle then tossed an arrow at Oliver and Oliver stabbed him. Given how detecting such things is supposedly Dragon's strong point, and that is his only combat showing (other than beating down Shado), given the hype he had before he appeared, I expected better. Comparing that to what Cassandra has done lately in Detective Comics, we can determine there is a significant gap between them.

@morpheus_: Yeah I remember. Wasn't diggle behind Dragon's back when he tossed the arrow though, so he couldn't see him?

@the_red_viper:

Gallery

Given that Oliver was grovelling on the floor and grabbed the arrow in front of Dragon's eyes, it's still rather inexcusable.

Cass stomps.

@morpheus_: True. Which is weird because he legit arrow-timed from point blank just a few pages before.

Beating current/Tynion Shiva isn't really impressive to me, I know she beat Bruce but she also got humiliated by Jason Todd. But Cass wins, she has greater amount of feats compared to Diaz.

@entropy_aegis: To be fair, Tynion has written Shiva as being at a much higher level than she was written during the RHATO arc, however, his Batman is an almost unprecedented jobber. Also, Jason admitted he's not on par with Shiva, and there was no way for him to defeat her straight-up, he only did it with a move she taught him in order to take her down specifically. Don't ask me how/why that makes sense. Even so, Rebirth Shiva has done something post-Crisis Shiva never did: casually defeated a top-tier fighter without any hindrances/extraneous circumstances. Presuming N52 Batman is still top-tier.

The resolution of the fight was poorly handled. No reason to present him as so far above Green Arrow only for him to lose by a cheap move. And I found the notion that the real Dragon was killed off panel and some random guy used his name to be in poor taste.

@morpheus_: she would most certainly not win :P She has more feats but shes not winning lmao. You may know more than me but that doesnt change facts lol.

Cassandra

That was never stated

Pre-new 52, so not valid

His only feat is beating Shado and fighting Ollie/Diggle, how exactly does that compare to Cass clearing through over a hundred League ninjas and being better than Batman?

His feats r underwhelming though compared to hers. Which feat in particular makes him superior? Remember that this is new 52

@arcus1: Yes... and this Dragon killed the pre52 Richard Dragon, as in, the one who beat Shiva and Bronze Tiger.. so clearly he is pretty skilled.

Either way I standby my vote, Dragon has always been presented as one of the, if not the most skilled fighters in DC. He may lack feats, but I back him all the way.

People say the Chuck series doesnt count, I say BS, if its a story made by an author, and isnt a graphic novel, its fine.

Only people in all of comics I would take over dragon are POSSIBLY Iron Fist/Shang Chi and Karate Kid and Batman One Million, who I dont count.

Either way, I give Richard this win in a tough fight, but his abilities have always been demonstrated as superior in my opinion, I just wish he had more feats.

Show me how this Richard beating the original Richard Dragon, and show me the original Richard Dragon beating Shiva and Bronze Tiger in the new 52

I don't know why stuff like this is apparently so hard for you to understand

@komboing: Dixon himself admits he wrote the story without taking continuity in mind and that it should be taken with a pinch of salt.

There you go, author's statement.

@arcus1: again, not hard for me to understand, I know its N52, but in the limited feats I have of Richard, he still impresses me more just a bit more than Cassandra does in their fights.

As I said I would like for him to have more feats, but he doesnt, hes still more impressive to me though.

@brucerogers: Well, Arrow S4 was terrible and not written well, but its still canon :P

@komboing: Except that example makes no sense since the writers for that season aren't making the same statements Dixon did. It's just shitty writing.

The Dragon miniseries isn't canon, period.