Mystic Gohan vs DBS 17

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SirFizzWhizz

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magnablue

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I think 17 would win. He was able to hurt super saiyan goku and hold his own against super saiyan blue

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SirFizzWhizz

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#3  Edited By SirFizzWhizz

Bump. Worth discussing.

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According to DBS, Mystic Gohan from Buu Saga > Current Gohan who is well above 17 and Krillin who both gave SSJ Goku a nice spar.

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Discuss!

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nefarious

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Hmm. I'll wait until I see both fight in the tournament. Right now, 17 wins with ease....I guess.

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SirFizzWhizz

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@nefarious: with ease? Current Gohan is able to beat one of Universe 9 best guys, and he is well out of shape to his DBZ self. I think the flawed scaling people do for 17, and now recently Krillin vs Goku as some measuring stick is clear at this point. Just because they are DBS does not equal more powerful than they were DBZ.

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Gaoron

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Gohan as of now

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nefarious

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Well, 17 has trained while Gohan has slacked off. Gohan could be stronger but we will have to see.

@nefarious: with ease? Current Gohan is able to beat one of Universe 9 best guys, and he is well out of shape to his DBZ self. I think the flawed scaling people do for 17, and now recently Krillin vs Goku as some measuring stick is clear at this point. Just because they are DBS does not equal more powerful than they were DBZ.

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HeirToTheKingdom

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#8  Edited By HeirToTheKingdom

Gohan.

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CaptFalcon725

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Gohan just got his "Mystic" form back. What proof do we have that it is on par with SSJ Blue, or able to even hold its own. 17 is more skilled and fight savvy. The writing is slipping IMO, but there's nothing that proves based on what we have seen that Gohan can beat 17.

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emperorthanos-

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#10 emperorthanos-  Moderator

Gohan should realistically win. Unless you consider 17 SSB level.

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deactivated-5a90ca82ccb5f

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Gohan should realistically win. Unless you consider 17 SSB level.

I haven't watched much of DBS due to lack of interest, but why do people but 17 at SSB levels???

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emperorthanos-

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#12 emperorthanos-  Moderator

@emperorthanos said:

Gohan should realistically win. Unless you consider 17 SSB level.

I haven't watched much of DBS due to lack of interest, but why do people but 17 at SSB levels???

Well because he pretty much fought evenly with SSB Goku. Goku was holding back but it was implied that 17 was as well. Mind like an episode before Krillin was matching SSB Goku's kamehameha with his own.

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deactivated-5a90ca82ccb5f

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CaptFalcon725

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#14  Edited By CaptFalcon725

@jardinain2 said:
@emperorthanos said:

Gohan should realistically win. Unless you consider 17 SSB level.

I haven't watched much of DBS due to lack of interest, but why do people but 17 at SSB levels???

Well because he pretty much fought evenly with SSB Goku. Goku was holding back but it was implied that 17 was as well. Mind like an episode before Krillin was matching SSB Goku's kamehameha with his own.

True, but Goku is testing people....so why would he put out significantly more power than the bare minimum necessary to complete the test?

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DeathHero61

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Gohan should realistically win. Unless you consider 17 SSB level.

I really don't see the issue with him being SSB level at all. Are people still complaining about this?

Everyone here was super willing to believe that the Androids were above Frieza, but can't believe an Android can keep up with SSB Goku when several other characters from different universes(Hit, Toppo, and the like) with no feats to their name have done so? Android 17 was originally a human. Not a single human was comparable to final form frieza back then. Yet with some cybernetic enhancements, he is not only strong enough to stomp the saiyans with raw physical strength alone, he's at a level where Frieza would get the same treatment he would receive from Trunks but worse.

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#16 emperorthanos-  Moderator

@deathhero61: Meh I do not agree with it. It's got nothing to do with him keeping up other characters. But I do not want to go in a rant over this now. 17 is far from the only issue I have, This nonsensical started the moment SSj2 trunks was keeping up evenly with SSB Level characters.

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DeathHero61

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@deathhero61: Meh I do not agree with it. It's got nothing to do with him keeping up other characters. But I do not want to go in a rant over this now. 17 is far from the only issue I have, This nonsensical started the moment SSj2 trunks was keeping up evenly with SSB Level characters.

That was far from an issue as well, Trunks was training his ass off, to beat other threats on his own, beating Dabura and Babidi on his own easily before things could escalate. `He was already at SSJ3 levels in the manga. Goku had to go SSB just to fight him.

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xSniperWolfiex

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Too early to tell honestly but I'd go with 17 as he's probably more of a warrior than gohan

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NinjaWarrior268

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17. If he wasn't remotely close to Super Saiyan Blue level, why did Goku have to transform to SSB to fight 17? Was he just doing it just to show off his new form?

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rahiem9123

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Mystic Gohan

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lettsplay10

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MainJP

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No.17 for now.

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Helloman

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Gohan should win.

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SirFizzWhizz

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#24  Edited By SirFizzWhizz

@deathhero61: my issue that kills the show, is that SSB is suppose to be leagues above anyone in Buu Saga. Yet all these guys magically are at this level now. Oh wait, they train you say? Well, training did jack shit for Yamcha, Tien, Krillin, ect from Frieza to Cell arc. Hell, Tien, Krillin, Piccolo, 18, and more kept training for years from Cell to Buu Saga and were still Frieza arc strength lol. Yet only now magically they went Frieza arc and Cell arc to SSB level? How does this make sense?

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bonzo_310

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I have no idea why people think krillen is even in league with ssb goku. He barely pushed back gokus kamehameha and then goku added more power and just stomped him. Easily that wasn't even a tenth of gokus ssb power. Android 17 is the only one that is somewhat in ssb gokus league because he pushed goku into that form. Android 17 beats myatic gohan as of now but more episodes need to be released for a solid conclusion

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DeathHero61

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#26  Edited By DeathHero61

@sirfizzwhizz said:

@deathhero61: my issue that kills the show, is that SSB is suppose to be leagues above anyone in Buu Saga. Yet all these guys magically are at this level now. Oh wait, they train you say? Well, training did jack shit for Yamcha, Tien, Krillin, ect from Frieza to Cell arc. Hell, Tien, Krillin, Piccolo, 18, and more kept training for years from Cell to Buu Saga and were still Frieza arc strength lol. Yet only now magically they went Frieza arc and Cell arc to SSB level? How does this make sense?

None of the humans should be at that level(which is why Goku's sparing match with SSB was absolutely stupid), but any character that isn't human, Piccolo, any of the saiyans, Androids, etc. Then it shouldn't be impossible.

Piccolo is above Cell Saga characters, which makes sense given the fact that he fused with other namekians, trained in the ROSAT and continued to train even after that. Piccolo isn't an asspull character like the saiyans. The Androids were normal humans turned into cyborgs that could body Frieza, them training for a decade and getting stronger to such a degree isn't that weird either. Tien and Krillin improved by leaps and bounds what are you talking about? Tien was at a level where his energy projection(which is a notch above most characters surprisingly) was enough to hold off Semi-Perfect Cell. Krillin is obviously obsolete because the humans aren't the only ones training out of the Z Fighters, there's still Piccolo and the Saiyans who basically make them irrelevant.

Super Saiyan God was hyped up for no reason considering Beerus and Whis can still treat the Z Fighters and the Saiyans like flies, therefore making the huge hyped up progress of Goku and Vegeta meaningless since there were characters outside of their universe that can match their power without divine energy like Hit The Assassin, Toppo, Jiren and other characters.

The reason why its so easy to overlook all these powerups is because Akira gave Goku and Vegeta and similarly powered characters(mostly Goku hilariously enough) a batman/superman complex. When shit goes down, Goku and top tier saiyans are usually the one who steps up and saves the day. Now that all these characters are finally doing shit, it makes things weird and seemingly inconsistent. Especially considering the fact that the way these characters are powering up isn't done in depth. For example, none of the cast that does improve ever use methods that could be shoehorned in as an excuse to salty fans such as the Dragon Balls, or the various methods used for powerups far back in Part 1 of the series such as the special water that Kid Goku drank to beat King Piccolo? Or the stuff used in Z such as the Old Kai's Unlock ability that he used to basically create Ultimate Gohan(or Mystic Gohan) or the ROSAT?(Hyperbolic time chamber) which can turn a day into a year? I have no problem with the characters being relevant, especially my boys Roshi and Piccolo, but it's mostly Akira's fault that these characters are coming back in ways that displeases the fans.

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SirFizzWhizz

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@deathhero61:

Piccolo is above Cell Saga characters, which makes sense given the fact that he fused with other namekians, trained in the ROSAT and continued to train even after that. Piccolo isn't an asspull character like the saiyans. The Androids were normal humans turned into cyborgs that could body Frieza, them training for a decade and getting stronger to such a degree isn't that weird either. Tien and Krillin improved by leaps and bounds what are you talking about?

Leaps and bounds my ass. They were USELESS in Cell Arc and USELESS in Buu arc. Now they are SSB level material? WHAT!?

Tien was at a level where his energy projection(which is a notch above most characters surprisingly) was enough to hold off Semi-Perfect Cell.

Yes, he blast Cell non stop till near death with zero results other than annoying Cell. Thats some improvement. Tien was also useless in Buu arc regardless his non stop training he was doing. It was pathetic.

is obviously obsolete because the humans aren't the only ones training out of the Z Fighters, there's still Piccolo and the Saiyans who basically make them irrelevant.

Piccolo was useless in Buu arc too. He was Yamcha of the Buu arc. Buu <<<< SSB in todays DBS wanking fanbase. So why is Piccolo training just a few more year makes hime Battle of the Gods level? Inconsistent as shit.

Super Saiyan God was hyped up for no reason considering Beerus and Whis can still treat the Z Fighters and the Saiyans like flies, therefore making the huge hyped up progress of Goku and Vegeta meaningless since there were characters outside of their universe that can match their power without divine energy like Hit The Assassin, Toppo, Jiren and other characters.

I agree 100%.

The reason why its so easy to overlook all these powerups is because Akira gave Goku and Vegeta and similarly powered characters(mostly Goku hilariously enough) a batman/superman complex. When shit goes down, Goku and top tier saiyans are usually the one who steps up and saves the day. Now that all these characters are finally doing shit, it makes things weird and seemingly inconsistent.

I agree as well.

Especially considering the fact that the way these characters are powering up isn't done in depth. For example, none of the cast that does improve ever use methods that could be shoehorned in as an excuse to salty fans such as the Dragon Balls, or the various methods used for powerups far back in Part 1 of the series such as the special water that Kid Goku drank to beat King Piccolo? Or the stuff used in Z such as the Old Kai's Unlock ability that he used to basically create Ultimate Gohan(or Mystic Gohan) or the ROSAT?(Hyperbolic time chamber) which can turn a day into a year? I have no problem with the characters being relevant, especially my boys Roshi and Piccolo, but it's mostly Akira's fault that these characters are coming back in ways that displeases the fans.

Then what are we arguing about? This is what I am saying. Due to past power progression, rate of progression, and as you said Goku and vegeta being the main guys to handle all shit going down, it is very inconsistent today in DBS for all the "moral support" characters to finally be like badasses or even relevant in a fight now. More so thanks to the bullshit hype of power levels from BotGs. It is Akira's fault.

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@deathhero61: my issue that kills the show, is that SSB is suppose to be leagues above anyone in Buu Saga. Yet all these guys magically are at this level now. Oh wait, they train you say? Well, training did jack shit for Yamcha, Tien, Krillin, ect from Frieza to Cell arc. Hell, Tien, Krillin, Piccolo, 18, and more kept training for years from Cell to Buu Saga and were still Frieza arc strength lol. Yet only now magically they went Frieza arc and Cell arc to SSB level? How does this make sense?

My opinion is that power scaling is alot more redundant because Akira is focusing more on martial skill and strategy as in the original dragonball. Also, character relevancy plays a role. Whenever a character is set to become important again they get a huge boost in power, which is usually hand-waved with some half assed theory (i.e Frieza never training a day in his life prior to Resurrection of F, or in the case of 17, just training really hard since he was resurrected and acting as city protector, despite have no one remotely on his level to spar with and Akira stating beforehand that 18 actually had more potential than 17). For me it makes it really hard to gauge with DBS characters actually are which is why I tend to stay away from debates with them for the time being.

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Gotoucanario

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yes

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DeathHero61

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#30  Edited By DeathHero61

@sirfizzwhizz said:

@deathhero61:

Piccolo is above Cell Saga characters, which makes sense given the fact that he fused with other namekians, trained in the ROSAT and continued to train even after that. Piccolo isn't an asspull character like the saiyans. The Androids were normal humans turned into cyborgs that could body Frieza, them training for a decade and getting stronger to such a degree isn't that weird either. Tien and Krillin improved by leaps and bounds what are you talking about?

Leaps and bounds my ass. They were USELESS in Cell Arc and USELESS in Buu arc. Now they are SSB level material? WHAT!?

In comparison to any character that isn't human, yeah, of course, they are useless.

Tien was at a level where his energy projection(which is a notch above most characters surprisingly) was enough to hold off Semi-Perfect Cell.

Yes, he blast Cell non stop till near death with zero results other than annoying Cell. Thats some improvement. Tien was also useless in Buu arc regardless his non stop training he was doing. It was pathetic.

His energy projection during Saiyan Saga couldn't even harm Nappa, the fact that on his own he was capable enough to eventually do something like what he did against Cell is impressive in its own right. And the jump in power from Cell Arc to Buu Arc was huge, so pretty much anyone that wasn't the saiyans would be useless which is a given considering all the different fusions and powerups Buu himself got over the course of the Arc. Literally Ultimate Gohan, Gotenks and Vegetto were the only ones able to fight Buu at his best. And those were conditional powerups that the heroes needed to prepare for or they got lucky and received. The jump in power was pretty obvious too, Fat Buu one shotting Dabura who is compared to Perfect Cell, Fat buu then getting dominated by evil buu which results in Super Buu the strongest incarnation, then the several asborptions which made him more powerful..... then his power after asborbing everyone including Gohan.

is obviously obsolete because the humans aren't the only ones training out of the Z Fighters, there's still Piccolo and the Saiyans who basically make them irrelevant.

Piccolo was useless in Buu arc too. He was Yamcha of the Buu arc. Buu <<<< SSB in todays DBS wanking fanbase. So why is Piccolo training just a few more year makes hime Battle of the Gods level? Inconsistent as shit.

He was a lot better than any of the humans, the Androids and the other characters. Take away the Goku and Vegeta and Gotenks and Piccolo was the strongest Z Fighter during that arc. Piccolo continuing to train after several years makes it credible since he was the only non-human character to be so close to the saiyans in terms of powerlevels throughout the entire series. What the hell are you talking about? Battle of the Gods level? The only characters out of the Z fighters that are "battle of the gods level" is Goku and Vegeta. Piccolo got to a level where he could keep up with Gohan, who is not as strong as Current Goku and Vegeta via SSB. Which is reasonable since during the Cell Saga he was as strong as the androids via kami fusion, than surpassed them through ROSAT training. Then continued training even throughout the buu saga where everyone, not just Piccolo became irrelevant because of Buu. Goku, like usual being the only one able to handle the threat until he says no and lets his family and friends who are clearly weaker than he is, handle it. So at the bare minimum, he eventually got to a level where he can keep up with SSJ2 Gohan.(Rusty) Which AGAIN is reasonable due to his steady rise through different circumstances.

The reason why its so easy to overlook all these powerups is because Akira gave Goku and Vegeta and similarly powered characters(mostly Goku hilariously enough) a batman/superman complex. When shit goes down, Goku and top tier saiyans are usually the one who steps up and saves the day. Now that all these characters are finally doing shit, it makes things weird and seeminglyinconsistent.

I agree as well.

Notice how I say seemingly.

Especially considering the fact that the way these characters are powering up isn't done in depth. For example, none of the cast that does improve ever use methods that could be shoehorned in as an excuse to salty fans such as the Dragon Balls, or the various methods used for powerups far back in Part 1 of the series such as the special water that Kid Goku drank to beat King Piccolo? Or the stuff used in Z such as the Old Kai's Unlock ability that he used to basically create Ultimate Gohan(or Mystic Gohan) or the ROSAT?(Hyperbolic time chamber) which can turn a day into a year? I have no problem with the characters being relevant, especially my boys Roshi and Piccolo, but it's mostly Akira's fault that these characters are coming back in ways that displeases the fans.

Then what are we arguing about? This is what I am saying. Due to past power progression, rate of progression, and as you said Goku and vegeta being the main guys to handle all shit going down, it is very inconsistent today in DBS for all the "moral support" characters to finally be like badasses or even relevant in a fight now. More so thanks to the bullshit hype of power levels from BotGs. It is Akira's fault.

The point that i am trying to make is that Akira's intent has always been there with regards to the progress of certain characters, the issue is his way of going about it, which is why he's a bad writer, to begin with.

@laflux said:
@sirfizzwhizz said:

@deathhero61: my issue that kills the show, is that SSB is suppose to be leagues above anyone in Buu Saga. Yet all these guys magically are at this level now. Oh wait, they train you say? Well, training did jack shit for Yamcha, Tien, Krillin, ect from Frieza to Cell arc. Hell, Tien, Krillin, Piccolo, 18, and more kept training for years from Cell to Buu Saga and were still Frieza arc strength lol. Yet only now magically they went Frieza arc and Cell arc to SSB level? How does this make sense?

My opinion is that power scaling is alot more redundant because Akira is focusing more on martial skill and strategy as in the original dragonball. Also, character relevancy plays a role. Whenever a character is set to become important again they get a huge boost in power, which is usually hand-waved with some half assed theory (i.e Frieza never training a day in his life prior to Resurrection of F, or in the case of 17, just training really hard since he was resurrected and acting as city protector, despite have no one remotely on his level to spar with and Akira stating beforehand that 18 actually had more potential than 17). For me it makes it really hard to gauge with DBS characters actually are which is why I tend to stay away from debates with them for the time being.

The problem is that even in Dragon Ball, characters that Goku has long passed were still in his weight class(just inferior to a good enough degree) and their training was simply efficient enough. Akira stopped doing that with characters by the time we reach the Android Arc and Super Saiyans are properly tossed in the series, and made all the characters legit useless.

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zr0c00l

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#31  Edited By zr0c00l

Gohan wrecks. goku matching up with krillin buu and 17 means nothing. 18 beat krillin easily last episode and he asks her to hold back. Too much wank and importance being placed on crappy filler episodes.

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@emperorthanos said:

@deathhero61: Meh I do not agree with it. It's got nothing to do with him keeping up other characters. But I do not want to go in a rant over this now. 17 is far from the only issue I have, This nonsensical started the moment SSj2 trunks was keeping up evenly with SSB Level characters.

That was far from an issue as well, Trunks was training his ass off, to beat other threats on his own, beating Dabura and Babidi on his own easily before things could escalate. `He was already at SSJ3 levels in the manga. Goku had to go SSB just to fight him.

Just a correction. In that second scan he was SSJG not SSJB. You can tell because the sparkles indicate Super Saiyan God while SSJB in the manga is marked with that blue lightning or whatever.

Also nothing indicates that he HAD to go SSJ God. He decide it would be quicker to go god to defeat him. However I see your point.

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SirFizzWhizz

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@zr0c00l said:

Gohan wrecks. goku matching up with krillin buu and 17 means nothing. 18 beat krillin easily last episode and he asks her to hold back. Too much wank and importance being placed on crappy filler episodes.

^

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DeathHero61

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People still complaining about Android 17 when logically he shouldn't be above Frieza either........

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DeathHero61

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@jaycool2 said:
@emperorthanos said:

@deathhero61: Meh I do not agree with it. It's got nothing to do with him keeping up other characters. But I do not want to go in a rant over this now. 17 is far from the only issue I have, This nonsensical started the moment SSj2 trunks was keeping up evenly with SSB Level characters.

That was far from an issue as well, Trunks was training his ass off, to beat other threats on his own, beating Dabura and Babidi on his own easily before things could escalate. `He was already at SSJ3 levels in the manga. Goku had to go SSB just to fight him.

Just a correction. In that second scan he was SSJG not SSJB. You can tell because the sparkles indicate Super Saiyan God while SSJB in the manga is marked with that blue lightning or whatever.

Also nothing indicates that he HAD to go SSJ God. He decide it would be quicker to go god to defeat him. However I see your point.

Ah, thanks for pointing that out, i didn't notice.

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alextheboss

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Gohan wins

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alextheboss

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@emperorthanos said:

@deathhero61: Meh I do not agree with it. It's got nothing to do with him keeping up other characters. But I do not want to go in a rant over this now. 17 is far from the only issue I have, This nonsensical started the moment SSj2 trunks was keeping up evenly with SSB Level characters.

That was far from an issue as well, Trunks was training his ass off, to beat other threats on his own, beating Dabura and Babidi on his own easily before things could escalate. `He was already at SSJ3 levels in the manga. Goku had to go SSB just to fight him.

Goku went SSG not SSB

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17 obviously until we see them both in action at the tournament

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thatduderox

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Too early to tell, but spoilers just dropped hinting that Gohan just got a huge power boost. We'll have to wait to see how he does in his 1v1 match against Goku to get a good idea of his new power.

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Saiyan77

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Wait till episode 90 in DBS to get a statement on this

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USSJ3071

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as far as who pushed goku more, probably gohan. so ill say gohan for now

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deactivated-5b728068f211c

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Gohan.

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KeyboardThug9

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gohan and its not close

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Mee09

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#46  Edited By Mee09

We have not seen Android 17's full power yet. We saw Gohan's. He isn't above Super Sayian Blue Kaioken times Ten. He only used Kaioken because Gohan wanted him to use his full power. Gohan was then one shot. Android 17 at full power could be more powerful than Goku in SSB. We do not know yet.

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Mee09

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#47  Edited By Mee09

@keyboardthug9: Making an assumption like that in Dragon Ball Super. Especially at this point is crazy. Tien is legit the weakest fighter in the tournament. People were expecting him to be just below Piccolo. Android 17 is probably just as strong as Goku. Vegeta is still stupidly strong. Roshi while under the control of someone else pretty much stomped Tien. Roshi didn't even have control over himself and wasn't fighting to the best of his ability. We have no idea how strong Android 18 and Krillin are right now. They've both been training non-stop. Piccolo's strength has increased as well because he has been training Gohan. Based off of the way Tien was "fighting" and handling the situation in episode 90 I think Piccolo would have completely domianted him.

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Just_Banter

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#48  Edited By Just_Banter

So, so far

17 holding back = SSJB Goku holding back

Gohan <<<< SSJB Kaoiken Goku

And obviously SSJB Kaoiken Goku >>>> SJJB Goku

With current feats, even though Gohan should logically be much stronger, it's impossible to judge. We need to wait for more feats, and mainly for 17 to actually go all out.

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MainJP

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@mee09 said:

Tien is legit the weakest fighter in the tournament. People were expecting him to be just below Piccolo.

Who expected that? Tenshinhan has never done anything to prove he'd get close to Piccolo, he couldn't even prove he's stronger than Namek Freeza.

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KeyboardThug9

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@mee09 said:

@keyboardthug9: Making an assumption like that in Dragon Ball Super. Especially at this point is crazy. Tien is legit the weakest fighter in the tournament. People were expecting him to be just below Piccolo. Android 17 is probably just as strong as Goku. Vegeta is still stupidly strong. Roshi while under the control of someone else pretty much stomped Tien. Roshi didn't even have control over himself and wasn't fighting to the best of his ability. We have no idea how strong Android 18 and Krillin are right now. They've both been training non-stop. Piccolo's strength has increased as well because he has been training Gohan. Based off of the way Tien was "fighting" and handling the situation in episode 90 I think Piccolo would have completely domianted him.

17 is not as strong as goku lmao quit trolling