@lordkaos@ashetdust@gladeusex@batvibe12@pyrofn@geekryan@storm_calling@warlockmage@comic_book_fan@onsipin@jagernutt@weatherwitch21@thunderbolt30@the_living_tribunal_24@lan_fan@payneintheass@trixie@shepardoakenprime@xmangog__beastx@corapvp@diarrhearegatta@aqualion0@martinceld@darthphoenix@emmafrostxmen@thevivas@ginman333@kenshiro3051996@captfalcon725@morpheus_@newecho@koays@nandope@renny@scarlet_wiccan@theinsufferable@underfire47@evil-incarnate@del_torro@adamtrmm@marvelfan1992@waitomegastorm@weatherwitch21@cruelrain@kasya_carey@lukadoncicmvp@lordofallhumans@princess_fiona@crimsonfoxfire@huko@kylvarvoglar@mass@thevoidofdeath@fetts@nashiruu@tonystark6999@lilbroomstick@subline@stealthgrey@battle123axe@whitequeen666@olorun
R1 is a stomp for the telepaths as they can just combine their TP and drop everyone right off the bat. No one on Team 2 can resist the combined telepathy of the X-Men.
For R2:
For R3, I'll give the win to Team 2. With 5 minutes of prep, which most of them excel at, they can likely pool their magic in order to protect their minds from the X-Men. Shaman Nate won't be enough to turn the tide.
R1 is a stomp for the telepaths as they can just combine their TP and drop everyone right off the bat. No one on Team 2 can resist the combined telepathy of the X-Men.
For R2:
For R3, I'll give the win to Team 2. With 5 minutes of prep, which most of them excel at, they can likely pool their magic in order to protect their minds from the X-Men. Shaman Nate won't be enough to turn the tide.
Is Doctor Strange stronger than Xavier in TP?
Here to read the Comments.
Dr. strange and dr. doom are T-E-A-M-B-U-S-T-E-R-S-!
Amora is second only to loki among Asgardians!
Billy has access to cosmic level powers in the comics!
Sorry babes, but it's about to be No! More! Redheads! as soon as the battle starts. Psychic powers are O-V-E-R-R-A-T-E-D-!
R1 is a stomp for the telepaths as they can just combine their TP and drop everyone right off the bat. No one on Team 2 can resist the combined telepathy of the X-Men.
For R2:
For R3, I'll give the win to Team 2. With 5 minutes of prep, which most of them excel at, they can likely pool their magic in order to protect their minds from the X-Men. Shaman Nate won't be enough to turn the tide.
Is Doctor Strange stronger than Xavier in TP?
No, but his defences are good enough to keep Xavier out for a bit and then just one-shot him with magic.
R1 is a stomp for the telepaths as they can just combine their TP and drop everyone right off the bat. No one on Team 2 can resist the combined telepathy of the X-Men.
For R2:
For R3, I'll give the win to Team 2. With 5 minutes of prep, which most of them excel at, they can likely pool their magic in order to protect their minds from the X-Men. Shaman Nate won't be enough to turn the tide.
Is Doctor Strange stronger than Xavier in TP?
No, but his defences are good enough to keep Xavier out for a bit and then just one-shot him with magic.
Oh, I thought Xavier Was gonna blast Strange with TP before he could pop a shield up but I guess not.
R1 is a stomp for the telepaths as they can just combine their TP and drop everyone right off the bat. No one on Team 2 can resist the combined telepathy of the X-Men.
For R2:
For R3, I'll give the win to Team 2. With 5 minutes of prep, which most of them excel at, they can likely pool their magic in order to protect their minds from the X-Men. Shaman Nate won't be enough to turn the tide.
Not sure about amoral. Didnt she on-sale xavier before or something
Doom is going to be trouble he is ruthless has physical strength some fighting skill dozens of weapons and he has 3 layers of defense against telepathy will the strongest will in comics magic and tec
Strange is way too OP when written properly, the guy recently clapped Nightmare who grew so powerful he fodderized the LT. I dunno if you can make threads with him without relying on him jobbing.
@vusalaynor: Billy is outmatched here as is scarlet witch they have zero defenses against psychic attacks of the xmen
Interesting fight Strange on team 2 really is the difference maker in this fight to me if they cant break through his defenses quick then hes gonna be a problem.
Round 1- I give it to the telepaths in a random encounter they just have so many options and they benefit tremendously with the element of surprise.
Round 2-
Xavier vs Strange
Jean Grey vs Amora the Enchantress
Emma Frost vs Scarlett Witch
Rachel Summers vs Wiccan
Psylocke vs Brother Voodoo
Nate Grey vs Dr. Doom
Round 3- The prep isnt long enough to give team 2 any chance make it an hour and they could win with Dooms prep 5 mins isnt enough if anything it helps the telepaths more. Team 1 wins again.
R1-Team vs Team Random Encounter: The Mutants win here , no one on Team 2 can deal with that level of TP
R3- 5 Minutes Prep / Nate is Shaman: Probably the Magic users.
@firelordmagnus: Pre-Shaman Nate would overload himself trying to properly handle Doom given the calibre of threats he was facing before his higher amps. His TP is limited and prone to immense failure and his TK has already been taken from far stronger opponents in the past.
R1-Team vs Team Random Encounter: The Mutants win here , no one on Team 2 can deal with that level of TP
R3- 5 Minutes Prep / Nate is Shaman: Probably the Magic users.
@marvelfan1992@koays@pyrofn@geekryan@del_torro@lordofallhumans@professorrespect@thunderbolt30@shepardoakenprime@waitomegastorm@emmafrostxmen@captfalcon725@thevoidofdeath@roddy2010@mooty_pass@marygcrisostomo@corpseeater@rac95@noobmaster2001@ecstaticgrace@lordoffate@scarlett_wiccan@kymilia@purplehairedni1@xmen5ever@demonicravegirl@luzifer_ztari@sar_annihilator@spideerfan002@six-deuce@theslader@mcflicky@morce@god_spawn@karlheisenberg@princesscadenza@angelica10@ironmansheets@killianduclark@masma94@spiders13@achillesspawn@_philosoraptor_@chimmychonga@imquentin@comicbookfan32@bamduelist@morcee@smoothsanta@darthrassilon@godlyshinigami@olorun@onsipin@samgee@novaprime2@firelordmagnus@nassergrant19@lazerbeak@ashrym@gangorca@gamerdude77@kaijuking@soratoumiga@young_justice@darkrealm@justaxviel@cosmic_reign@cosmoman@mage101@bigbaby
@marvelfan1992@koays@pyrofn@geekryan@del_torro@lordofallhumans@professorrespect@thunderbolt30@shepardoakenprime@waitomegastorm@emmafrostxmen@captfalcon725@thevoidofdeath@roddy2010@mooty_pass@marygcrisostomo@corpseeater@rac95@noobmaster2001@ecstaticgrace@lordoffate@scarlett_wiccan@kymilia@purplehairedni1@xmen5ever@demonicravegirl@luzifer_ztari@sar_annihilator@spideerfan002@six-deuce@theslader@mcflicky@morce@god_spawn@karlheisenberg@princesscadenza@angelica10@ironmansheets@masma94@spiders13@achillesspawn@_philosoraptor_@chimmychonga@imquentin@comicbookfan32@bamduelist@morcee@smoothsanta@darthrassilon@godlyshinigami@olorun@onsipin@samgee@novaprime2@firelordmagnus@nassergrant19@lazerbeak@ashrym@gangorca@gamerdude77@kaijuking@soratoumiga@young_justice @darkrealm
R1 is a stomp for the telepaths as they can just combine their TP and drop everyone right off the bat. No one on Team 2 can resist the combined telepathy of the X-Men.
For R2:
For R3, I'll give the win to Team 2. With 5 minutes of prep, which most of them excel at, they can likely pool their magic in order to protect their minds from the X-Men. Shaman Nate won't be enough to turn the tide.
Still this. Only thing I'm iffy with is betsy vs voodoo coz girl loves to get up close and personal. if she does this she probably loses, but wins if she utilizes her powers properly
R1: Mutants stomp the combined TP is waaaay to much for anyone on Team 2 to handle
Round 2 -
Xavier vs Strange - Leaning towards Strange , Although if Charles has Cerebro I could pssible see him taking some wins. But Strange should still take the vast majority
Jean Grey vs Amora the Enchantress - Jean should stomp her out , her TP offense is simply to much for Amora to deal with
Emma Frost vs Scarlet Witch - Arguemnets can be made for either side TBH , it really depends on who goes first , While Wanda has some counters to TP , she isn't equipped to deal with TP on Emma's level , the same can be said for Emma as she doesn't really have any counters to any of Wanda's abilities. So again it depends on who goes first , I'm however leaning towards Wanda due to better speed feats/scaling.
Rachel Summers vs Wiccan - Rachel Stomps him out
Psylocke vs Brother Voodoo - Don't know about Voodoo's TP defenses , so leaning towards Psylocke for now
Nate Grey vs Dr. Doom - Doom can take what Nate can dish out , has the defenses to deal with Nate's TP and has more than enough hax to win a majority
What Geek said a year ago
Doom is not beating Nate without prep. Even with it his victory is not assured.
Pre-Shaman regular Nate gets wrecked etc
@professorrespect: Not at all. But by all means, explain why you believe Doom wins.
Doom can drain Nate with standard armor. On top of that fact that Nate burns out when he exerts himself. The level of exertion varies but from story to story but that is a consistent plot point.
Also Doom resisting Red Onslaught is a good feat. Although not quite impossible for Nate to scale above if he exerts himself.
@mage101 said:
Strange is way too OP when written properly, the guy recently clapped Nightmare who grew so powerful he fodderized the LT. I dunno if you can make threads with him without relying on him jobbing.
The same can also be said for jean, nightmare is inconsistent and is nowhere LT level
It can't, for several reasons. Jean defeated him under Duggan, while Strange defeated him under Busiek, which happened in the very same storyline where Nightmare clapped the abstracts. Nightmare was also amped from the dreams of all reality when fought the cosmic entities and Strange, which again, wasn't the case with Jean.
@professorrespect: Not at all. But by all means, explain why you believe Doom wins.
Because Nate doesn't have the offence to suggest he can handle Doom without burning out as already stated above, nor has any TP worth mentioning to bypass his mental defences.
Round 1: Sorcerers.
TP wont work on Daniel and he can just disrupt their attempts at TPing by constantly possessing the telepath team like he did against the Avengers. Afterwards, the TP team get steamrolled by hax.
Round 2:
@professorrespect: If anyone barring cosmic beings has the telepathy to bypass Doom’s mental defenses it is Nate Grey. This is a guy that has literally rag-dolled Professor X, one of the most skilled and powerful telepaths on Earth, and dragged his astral-form into the real world. Cable, Jean Grey, Mr. Sinister, hell, even Thanos’ mental defenses have fell short to Nate’s psionic might. In a random encounter I don’t see what’s stopping Nate from entering Doom’s mind and either erasing his memories or completely shutting his mind down.
None of which will cause him much exertion to burn out, even though that’s no easy feat to begin with.
@holyy said:
@professorrespect: If anyone barring cosmic beings has the telepathy to bypass Doom’s mental defenses it is Nate Grey. This is a guy that has literally rag-dolled Professor X
....not in his regular form? This also happened during a flare-up of his powers when he can't even discern himself against Sentinels, Pryor, a immensely weakened Exodus, or even a cheap knock-off of Mysterio without having big problems. He never "rag-dolled" Xavier at all, the only thing that happened in his base form was Xavier getting passively hurt by his psyonic outburst, and that wasn't him defending or bothering to fight the guy. The only other time this was the case was when he was using enough TK energy to destroy a town, and Xavier didn't want to hurt innocents so he had to back off, despite the fact that he wasn't even trying to fight Nate while he was going 100% angry-mode. That's not very good, especially given Xavier's TK is.....well it's not exactly half as good as his TP.
When he had psionic armor to fight Nate (I.E. he was actually trying) he caused a nosebleed with his first blow and sent Nate flying. As opposed to Nate himself, who did no such thing even when going full power. Xavier even states he has to "let him believe" he won by lowering his defences and dissipating to stop people getting killed. Apparently destroying a town was his limits as well because he was exhausted afterwards and almost fainted: pretty shit all things considered.
Cable, Jean Grey, Mr. Sinister, hell, even Thanos’ mental defenses
Lol none of this has been the case with regular Nate. The Thanos you are trying to reference from his team-up issue with Hulk was a Thanosi, and a particularly shoddy one at that given it was far weaker than regular Thanos, getting nuked was enough to send it packing and Ka-Zar had no issues getting around it. Once again, not very good. I have no idea what the other instances are supposed to refer to given they don't seem to be really much to discuss but I'm sure they have really obvious context to be explained as well.
None of which will cause him much exertion to burn out
Considering he's burnt out against the above (which are his actual Pre-Shaman showings, not whatever random shit you are pulling from) then yeah, I think Doom can kick his ass. He isn't better than alt-Moondragon or Emma Frost any day of the week bar raw potential.
....not in his regular form? This also happened during a flare-up of his powers when he can't even discern himself against Sentinels, Pryor, a immensely weakened Exodus, or even a cheap knock-off of Mysterio.
It was his regular form. You're talking about completely different instances, which I'm sure is around X-Man #47 and onwards wherein he lost his telepathy and regained it back in X-Man #57 in his fight against Mysterio.
He never "rag-dolled" Xavier at all,
He sensed Xavier's presence, and he dragged him unwillingly out of the astral plane. A feat Jean remarked even the Phoenix has never accomplished. This occurred in X-Man #10-11 which is way before he received any amps. So yeah, he got rag dolled.
the only thing that happened in his base form was Xavier getting passively hurt by his psyonic outburst, and that wasn't him defending or bothering to fight the guy.
Except Nate wasn't attempting to fight Xavier either. The psionic outburst you are referring to was a passive result of Nate merely entering Earth (616) atmosphere as explicitly stated by Xavier himself. Also, it K/O'ed Psylocke and Xavier was positive Jean felt it too and he even went on to describe Nate as "unequivocally more powerful than any I've felt before" [X-Men: Prime (1995)].
Lol none of this has been the case with regular Nate. The Thanos you are trying to reference from his team-up issue with Hulk was a Thanosi, and a particularly shoddy one at that given it was far weaker than regular Thanos, getting nuked was enough to send it packing and Ka-Zar had no issues getting around it.
Literally everything I'm mentioning is regular Nate. You must not be familiar with the character.
Now the Thanos comic is one I've always had trouble finding online so I bought a physical copy years ago, which I no longer have, but I don't recall Ka-Zar being in that comic. I'll have to try and find it to reassess the feat.
Considering he's burnt out against the above (which are his actual Pre-Shaman showings, not whatever random shit you are pulling from) then yeah, I think Doom can kick his ass. He isn't better than alt-Moondragon or Emma Frost any day of the week bar raw potential.
Nate>>>Cable, Xavier, and Jean Grey>Alt-Moondragon & Emma Frost.
These feats aren't random. I've read all of Nate's appearances and I have a personal page on Instagram with all of his feats posted in chronological order. By all means though, prove me wrong and show me a feat that I mentioned of him temporarily amped or at Shaman levels.
Oh, and I haven't posted scans because I have none on the laptop. I'm working on gathering scans for a CaV I'm currently in. I can edit the post later and include them. Or you can just read the comics since I've cited all of my feats.
Nate shuts Doom's mind down whether that be telekinetically or telepathically.
....not in his regular form? This also happened during a flare-up of his powers when he can't even discern himself against Sentinels, Pryor, a immensely weakened Exodus, or even a cheap knock-off of Mysterio.
It was his regular form. You're talking about completely different instances, which I'm sure is around X-Man #47 and onwards wherein he lost his telepathy and regained it back in X-Man #57 in his fight against Mysterio
Losing his TP = not regular? His TK and such was still intact etc.
He never "rag-dolled" Xavier at all,
He sensed Xavier's presence, and he dragged him unwillingly out of the astral plane
...when he wasn't even trying to defend himself lol
the only thing that happened in his base form was Xavier getting passively hurt by his psyonic outburst, and that wasn't him defending or bothering to fight the guy.
Except Nate wasn't attempting to fight Xavier either
Wrong, he was making threats to kill the guy when they ACTUALLY fought, not when Nate merely showed up.
Lol none of this has been the case with regular Nate. The Thanos you are trying to reference from his team-up issue with Hulk was a Thanosi, and a particularly shoddy one at that given it was far weaker than regular Thanos, getting nuked was enough to send it packing and Ka-Zar had no issues getting around it.
Literally everything I'm mentioning is regular Nate. You must not be familiar with the character
I am very much familiar, it's just you've omitted context off so many of these that it's a bit hard to keep track.
He fought Cable in Cable (1993) #30
Cable literally did nothing to actually attack Nate, he let down his defences even to let Nate scan his mind and for them to relate to the other. Neat feat that he can attack someone who wasn't fighting back though again I guess, not applicable here though.
He fought Jean in X-Man #25
Hardly, she was fighting someone else, he deflected her attack back at her and she got knocked down by her own offence. He was also quickly being weakened due to his psi-energy being that limited. Again, great he can fight people who aren't fighting back but it means nothing, especially to 90's Jean who was super limited and nowhere near as good as before or after.
He fought Sinister in X-Force (1991) #57
Again, Sinister wasn't even bothering to fight back lol. He was nearly pissing his pants at how "glorious" Nate's power was, he was just sitting around eating his TK for a page and just calmly going over the process of Nate's attack, then Nate got KO'd when he tried TP, so idk how you think that's impressive.
Now the Thanos comic is one I've always had trouble finding online so I bought a physical copy years ago, which I no longer have, but I don't recall Ka-Zar being in that comic. I'll have to try and find it to reassess the feat
Ka-Zar was in a separate comic with the same Low-Level Thanosi.
Considering he's burnt out against the above (which are his actual Pre-Shaman showings, not whatever random shit you are pulling from) then yeah, I think Doom can kick his ass. He isn't better than alt-Moondragon or Emma Frost any day of the week bar raw potential.
These feats aren't random
They kinda are given nearly all of them aren't "fights" they're either glorified sucker-punches or not even battles. Again I don't get why these are intended to be impressive.
I've read all of Nate's appearances and I have a personal page on Instagram with all of his feats posted in chronological order. By all means though, prove me wrong and show me a feat that I mentioned of him temporarily amped or at Shaman levels
I don't need to do that when the cited feats are bad enough that even the weakest TP scaling (Doom to Invisible Woman, passive resistance of the psi-wave, etc) is enough for Nate here. I'm really sure Nate's TK town bust is stronger than Jean Grey and Xavier's best feats though lol
Losing his TP = not regular? His TK and such was still intact etc.
Sooo . . . he was weaker than regular levels. So, even if I did use a feat from that instance (I didn't), it would be applicable to regular Nate because he's not restricted to just telekinesis here.
...when he wasn't even trying to defend himself lol
He wasn't trying to defend himself because 1. He thought he could conceal his presence from Nate (Failed). 2. He was in the astral plane . . . So he logically assumed he didn't need to defend himself since they were on two different planes of existence. Until Nate did something even the Phoenix wasn't capable of accomplishing. I really don't see how you're trynna downplay this feat.
Wrong, he was making threats to kill the guy when they ACTUALLY fought, not when Nate merely showed up.
I-I'm not wrong. You brought up Xavier getting passively hurt by Nate's psionic outburst and I retorted by saying it was merely a result of Nate's presence onto Earth (616) atmosphere in X-Men: Prime (1995). I understand he threatened to kill Xavier in X-Man #10, but that's not what the above quoted section is referencing in accordance with the aforementioned feat.
I am very much familiar, it's just you've omitted context off so many of these that it's a bit hard to keep track.
I'm not omitting anything. You're just downplaying everything and misconstruing my argument. What am I omitting? All I said was that he "fought" them, which is true.
Cable literally did nothing to actually attack Nate, he let down his defences even to let Nate scan his mind and for them to relate to the other. Neat feat that he can attack someone who wasn't fighting back though again I guess, not applicable here though.
Yes, Cable was trying to gain Nate's trust, and that is partial as to why he initially remained on the defensive end. However, it was also because he knew he could not defeat Nate head-on, and he wanted to gain more information. Here's the quote "he knows if there is to be a battle. It is not one he could win with powers alone." Furthermore, after that altercation with Cable, Exodus intervenes, and they fight. Nate defeats him and is attacked by Blaquesmith. Using a staff which was specifically designed to kill Cable, Nate's near genetic equal. Nate overpowered the energy of the staff nearly killing Blaquesmith. The psychic outlash of Nate's powers were simultaneously causing ripples in the astral plane. His powers were ripping throughout Earth causing Holocaust (New York), Psylocke (Colorado), Jean Grey and Professor X (Salem Center, New York) painful psychic feedback. After all this Nate was left "drained" and then and only then did Cable attack him. He even remarked, "have to keep the pressure on. Don't know how long I'll have before his powers returns at full force." It can even be argued that Cable was being amped by since he himself made mention in a thought bubble that he felt "as if my own powers is somehow being augmented by an outside force." Even so, Nate fought him evenly and was even overpowering him and only lost because "he pushed himself too far." Cable even said that "the only thing that could've defeated him was himself." The feat is made even more impressive since it's revealed 20+ issues later in X-Man #58 that Threnody. A mutant capable of absorbing the life-force had been feeding off of his energy from the day they met. She was also present in this entire encounter as Nate was protecting her.
This was over the course of several issues [Cable (1993) #30-31 & X-Man #14]. I only mentioned the first one because I assumed you were knowledgeable of the full fight. You wanted context. There you go.
Hardly, she was fighting someone else, he deflected her attack back at her and she got knocked down by her own offence. He was also quickly being weakened due to his psi-energy being that limited. Again, great he can fight people who aren't fighting back but it means nothing, especially to 90's Jean who was super limited and nowhere near as good as before or after.
Nate was the most confused and neutral guy there. Pryor shot an energy blast at a Blackbird (helicopter) and Nate used his telekinesis to stop the helicopter from crashing. Not even knowing Jean Grey was the pilot that he "saved."
Jean, while psi-screened, tried to do a sneak-attack on Madelyne Pryor and she "lashed with all she's got." Nate simply returned the attack back on her. He then went on to psionically shield both Pryor and Jean from some sort of fallout.
He was also quickly being weakened due to his psi-energy being that limited.
He was limited but there's context which you're omitting. It was revealed in the very next issue that in his efforts to reach out to Jean Grey (his "mother') he unknowingly recreated Madelyne Pryor out of thin air. Let me rephrase that, he not only created life, but he recreated a being with telepathic might nigh-equal to his own . . out of thin air. Pryor is then shown giving Nate his power back that he unknowingly gave to her.
X-Man #25-26
Again, Sinister wasn't even bothering to fight back lol. He was nearly pissing his pants at how "glorious" Nate's power was, he was just sitting around eating his TK for a page and just calmly going over the process of Nate's attack, then Nate got KO'd when he tried TP, so idk how you think that's impressive.
I beg of thee to ponder whether Sinister intentionally refused to fight back or was he incapable of fighting back due to Nate's immense power and the fact he was being attacked psionically, telekinetically, and physically simultaneously? Sinister outright said, "I do not doubt you can slay me." Also, where was he eating Nate's attack or "calmly" glossing over it? He screamed out in agony, "Argh," and was shown hunched over in pain. Yes, he was admiring Nate's power but that does not mean it was without pain. Sinister is a masochist if there ever was one.
Ka-Zar was in a separate comic with the same Low-Level Thanosi.
How do you know it was the same one, and what comic is this?
I don't need to do that when the cited feats are bad enough that even the weakest TP scaling (Doom to Invisible Woman, passive resistance of the psi-wave, etc) is enough for Nate here.
Feats aren't bad, you're just downplaying them. Nate has shown superiority to the likes of Jean Grey, Professor X, and Cable. Nothing you've brought up from Doom tops that. He gets immediately shut down.
Losing his TP = not regular? His TK and such was still intact etc.
Sooo . . . he was weaker than regular levels. So, even if I did use a feat from that instance (I didn't), it would be applicable to regular Nate because he's not restricted to just telekinesis here
How was he "weaker" overall with only TP removed? TK was still fine etc.
...when he wasn't even trying to defend himself lol
He wasn't trying to defend himself because 1. He thought he could conceal his presence from Nate (Failed)
He wasn't in general lol. He didn't even have psi-armor on because he wasn't there for a fight. Nate dragged him out for one, he couldn't do any lasting damage, Xavier did more damage with one strike to knock him back than Nate going with full power did, and Xavier literally handed him the win to stop people getting hurt. All facts.
Until Nate did something even the Phoenix wasn't capable of accomplishing
Again who cares? Is Phoenix not capable of wiping out a town, which was the limit of Nate's powers and which he was exhausting himself getting to in the first place? No? Then it doesn't matter.
Wrong, he was making threats to kill the guy when they ACTUALLY fought, not when Nate merely showed up.
I-I'm not wrong. You brought up Xavier getting passively hurt by Nate's psionic outburst and I retorted by saying it was merely a result of Nate's presence onto Earth (616) atmosphere
Yeah, it was passive lol. Good to see the retort was actually just a agreement though.
I am very much familiar, it's just you've omitted context off so many of these that it's a bit hard to keep track.
I'm not omitting anything. You're just downplaying misconstruing my argument
You can't just say it's "downplaying" while providing nothing to show otherwise. I get you like Nate a good bit with your IG page and all that but he's definitely not Phoenix/Xavier+ tier with his very limited showings, of which continue to be more limited the more we actually go into detail about them.
What am I omitting
Literally every instance you've mentioned has stuff omitted etc. It's been addressed already.
Cable literally did nothing to actually attack Nate, he let down his defences even to let Nate scan his mind and for them to relate to the other. Neat feat that he can attack someone who wasn't fighting back though again I guess, not applicable here though.
Yes, Cable was trying to gain Nate's trust, and that is partial as to why he initially remained on the defensive end. However, it was also because he knew he could not defeat Nate head-on
Not really.
and he wanted to gain more information. Here's the quote "he knows if there is to be a battle. It is not one he could win with powers alone."
"powers alone" obviously refers to their psi-stuff, which is understandable given Cable isn't exactly someone who can freely throw out TK struggles with his TO-Virus.
The psychic outlash of Nate's powers were simultaneously causing ripples in the astral plane. His powers were ripping throughout Earth causing Holocaust (New York), Psylocke (Colorado), Jean Grey and Professor X (Salem Center, New York) painful psychic feedback. After all this Nate was left "drained" and then and only then did Cable attack him
That's raw passive power, not very helpful in a battle where he's just going to burn himself out trying to do the same to Doom lol.
Hardly, she was fighting someone else, he deflected her attack back at her and she got knocked down by her own offence. He was also quickly being weakened due to his psi-energy being that limited. Again, great he can fight people who aren't fighting back but it means nothing, especially to 90's Jean who was super limited and nowhere near as good as before or after.
Nate was the most confused and neutral guy there. Pryor shot an energy blast at a Blackbird (helicopter) and Nate used his telekinesis to stop the helicopter from crashing. Not even knowing Jean Grey was the pilot that he "saved
Cool, he still sucker-punched her etc.
He was also quickly being weakened due to his psi-energy being that limited.
He was limited but there's context which you're omitting
Nope, he was being drained, but I guess we got to grab onto some tangible point to talk about lol.
It was revealed in the very next issue that in his efforts to reach out to Jean Grey (his "mother') he unknowingly recreated Madelyne Pryor out of thin air
Yeah he made her as a passive response etc, that still doesn't equate to any combat-showing/significance to anything. Pryor also chased him around a bit with their own psi-encounter so yeah I don't see the point
Again, Sinister wasn't even bothering to fight back lol. He was nearly pissing his pants at how "glorious" Nate's power was, he was just sitting around eating his TK for a page and just calmly going over the process of Nate's attack, then Nate got KO'd when he tried TP, so idk how you think that's impressive.
I beg of thee to ponder whether Sinister intentionally refused to fight back or was he incapable of fighting back due to Nate's immense power
Considering Sinister one-shot his ass and wasn't bothered about Nate attacking him from all sides then yeah, he wasn't defending himself.
Sinister outright said, "I do not doubt you can slay me."
....of course you ignore the fact that Sinister was doing that as a whole to bait Nate into trying to TP him with the temptation of info, which he couldn't get.
Also, where was he eating Nate's attack or "calmly" glossing over itHe screamed out in agony, "Argh,"and was shown hunched over in pain
He ate the attack given he took it head-on and wasn't really effected outside of the hunch. That's called "tanking" where we come from etc.
Ka-Zar was in a separate comic with the same Low-Level Thanosi.
How do you know it was the same one, and what comic is this
.....because it was mentioned as such? Like do you not know what Thanosi are? There's a few of them etc.
I don't need to do that when the cited feats are bad enough that even the weakest TP scaling (Doom to Invisible Woman, passive resistance of the psi-wave, etc) is enough for Nate here.
Feats aren't bad, you're just downplaying them
Excuses for poor debating are excuses for, well, poor debating.
has shown superiority to the likes of Jean Grey, Professor X, and Cable
All wank, no substance. Notice how you've made zero attempt to actually address any of the debunkings outside of the Cable fight? That's because there's nothing to address, he hit them with sucker punches and/or they weren't trying to fight back, and you think that's a direct line to scale from for some bizarre reason. He also got his ass kicked by Sinister and co so yeah, this is just wank, sorry. Maybe if we were talking about Shaman or Life Seed you'd have a point, this version of Nate was burning down getting close to destroying a town, that's barely mid-tier shit brudda.
Nothing you've brought up from Doom tops that
Considering you've made zero attempt to actually address what Doom has and the fact that Pre-Shaman Nate has zero planetary TP feats to his name, this is a open/shut case. No one would agree with you that this version of Nate is doing anything, let alone stronger than Xavier AND Phoenix lol.
@pyrofn what's the prognosis on the "Nate is stronger than Xavier/Phoenix argument" etc
How was he "weaker" overall with only TP removed? TK was still fine etc.
He was weaker because his telepathy was removed . . . losing portion of power = weaker. Not a hard concept. Even so, I have no idea what's the point of this when I never even brought up any feats from that arc.
He wasn't in general lol.
You aren't grasping it. He wasn't on the defensive because he shouldn't have had to be since he was in the astral plane. Nate pulled him from one plane of existence to another. Facts.
He didn't even have psi-armor on because he wasn't there for a fight. Nate dragged him out for one, he couldn't do any lasting damage, Xavier did more damage with one strike to knock him back than Nate going with full power did, and Xavier literally handed him the win to stop people getting hurt. All facts.
He couldn't do any lasting damage and he didn't have psi-armor? How come after Nate dragged him out of the astral plane he literally said, "I'll need protection, psionic armor." Then goes to put on his armor. Also, of course he couldn't do lasting damage since it was an astral plane, something that is incorporeal, and once again, he shouldn't have been capable of pulling onto the physical plane in the first place. Regardless, I was highlighting that one specific aspect of the feat (Nate pulling him out of the astral plane). I was never taking the full fight into account.
Again, who cares? Is Phoenix not capable of wiping out a town, which was the limit of Nate's powers and which he was exhausting himself getting to in the first place? No? Then it doesn't matter.
It's not the limit of Nate's powers rather it's the limit of Nate's body . . . at that point in time. This is literally just ten issues into his comic series.
Yeah, it was passive lol. Good to see the retort was actually just a agreement though.
Yea, Nate's passive energies are enough to cause the likes of Jean Grey and Professor X immense psychic pain. Agreed.
That's raw passive power, not very helpful in a battle where he's just going to burn himself out trying to do the same to Doom lol.
Literally never said it'd be helpful or used in battle especially since Doom isn't psi-sensitive to my knowledge. I was just giving you the full context of the battle . . . Why are you making up false counters?
Cool, he still sucker-punched her etc.
Literally Jean was trying to sucker punch Madelyne, whom Nate was clearly with, and Nate just reflected the attack back.
Nope, he was being drained, but I guess we got to grab onto some tangible point to talk about lol.
"The only way I know how to right the wrong that would be Madelyne's hallow empty existence forever. Reclaiming the unnatural energies that animated her all along. Psionics seeds I never even realized I planted." Even then, the method of drainage doesn't matter. Fact is, since her resurrection he was never at full power, which is my entire point being made.
Yeah he made her as a passive response etc, that still doesn't equate to any combat-showing/significance to anything. Pryor also chased him around a bit with their own psi-encounter so yeah I don't see the point
Again, never equated it to combat. All I was doing was adding context since you mentioned his powers being limited. Continuing with the false counters are we?
Considering Sinister one-shot his ass and wasn't bothered about Nate attacking him from all sides then yeah, he wasn't defending himself.
....of course you ignore the fact that Sinister was doing that as a whole to bait Nate into trying to TP him with the temptation of info, which he couldn't get.
Of course, you ignore the fact it's revealed that this was only possible due to very specific circumstances revealed in X-Man #19. It was due to the fact that Sinister put neuro-locks in Threnody's mind and once Nate ventured into her mind, this opened a direct channel back onto Nate's mind. Sinister even said, "the sheer force of your will, the raw power of your mind at large, was beyond even my considerable ability to penetrate." In fact, it was even revealed to be a "one-time trick." As Nate's brain automatic psionic defense mechanisms re-routed his synaptic nerves and neural pathways to permanently shut him out.
He ate the attack given he took it head-on and wasn't really effected outside of the hunch. That's called "tanking" where we come from etc.
Screaming in agony and being hunched over is tanking? Weird. Especially since he only survived because he convinced Nate top stop.
.....because it was mentioned as such? Like do you not know what Thanosi are? There's a few of them etc.
I know what Thanosi is. What I am looking for is evidence. Comics, citations, scans, something my guy. All I have from you is word of mouth.
All wank, no substance. Notice how you've made zero attempt to actually address any of the debunkings outside of the Cable fight? That's because there's nothing to address, he hit them with sucker punches and/or they weren't trying to fight back, and you think that's a direct line to scale from for some bizarre reason. He also got his ass kicked by Sinister and co so yeah, this is just wank, sorry. Maybe if we were talking about Shaman or Life Seed you'd have a point, this version of Nate was burning down getting close to destroying a town, that's barely mid-tier shit brudda.
I literally addressed every feat, and you were wrong in some aspect about everyone my guy. The Cable one was just the longest one because it spanned 3 comics. Sinister feat had context you continue to omit or maybe you just aren't as knowledgeable on Nate as you believe.
Considering you've made zero attempt to actually address what Doom has and the fact that Pre-Shaman Nate has zero planetary TP feats to his name, this is a open/shut case. No one would agree with you that this version of Nate is doing anything, let alone stronger than Xavier AND Phoenix lol.
Not once did I say he was stronger than Phoenix. I merely brough up a feat and recited what was stated in the comic. He performed one feat that the Phoenix didn't manage to accomplish. Doesn't make him stronger, but still impressive nonetheless. Is he stronger than Xavier? Definitely. It has been explicitly stated and he has again, dragged the man out of the astral plane and his mere passive energies causes him immense psychic pain. Nate’s mere presence causing painful psychic feedback to psychics across the planet passively, is planetary.
Doom gets shut down. Still waiting on some evidence from you on the contrary.
@professorrespect: My laptop is acting funny. Not letting me quote stuff. I'll try to fix it in the morning. Should be able to still make out my counters.
How was he "weaker" overall with only TP removed? TK was still fine etc.
He was weaker because his telepathy was removed
His TK was fine? Weird logic there lol. Not sure why we have to say he's weaker when his TK is his main weapon anyway.
He wasn't in general lol.
You aren't grasping it. He wasn't on the defensive because he shouldn't have had to be since he was in the astral plane
Who cares? It matters zero to the fight and the combat showings were just him getting exhausted while Xavier held him off while doing more damage with a single strike than what Nate did with his entire outburst.
He didn't even have psi-armor on because he wasn't there for a fight. Nate dragged him out for one, he couldn't do any lasting damage, Xavier did more damage with one strike to knock him back than Nate going with full power did, and Xavier literally handed him the win to stop people getting hurt. All facts.
He couldn't do any lasting damage and he didn't have psi-armor? How come after Nate dragged him out of the astral plane he literally said, "I'll need protection, psionic armor."
.....because he didn't have any? I never said he didn't have it during the fight, I said he didn't even have it on going in because he was there to watch and then communicate if necessary
Regardless, I was highlighting that one specific aspect of the feat (Nate pulling him out of the astral plane). I was never taking the full fight into account
So omitting context, great.
Again, who cares? Is Phoenix not capable of wiping out a town, which was the limit of Nate's powers and which he was exhausting himself getting to in the first place? No? Then it doesn't matter.
It's not the limit of Nate's powers rather it's the limit of Nate's body
It's the limit of his powers, that power is not nearly enough to be useful here against someone who casually blocks out far stronger/skilled talent.
Yeah, it was passive lol. Good to see the retort was actually just a agreement though.
Yea, Nate's passive energies are enough to cause the likes of Jean Grey and Professor X immense psychic pain
Shame those energies were a one-time thing and he didn't actually replicate that in combat, so he loses lol.
That's raw passive power, not very helpful in a battle where he's just going to burn himself out trying to do the same to Doom lol.
Literally never said it'd be helpful or used in battle especially since Doom isn't psi-sensitive to my knowledge
Cool, just making sure this isn't being used as a actual argument.
Cool, he still sucker-punched her etc.
Literally Jean was trying to sucker punch Madelyne, whom Nate was clearly with, and Nate just reflected the attack back
Cool, he still sucker-punched Jean? Like they didn't "fight" it was Nate ambushing her with her own attack once and then that was it. And it was 90's Jean as well, who was mid-tier fodder and got wrecked by Onslaught, Gamesmaster and Exodus. Nate did worse than all of the above yet he scales above all of them in your logic? Weird stuff.
Nope, he was being drained, but I guess we got to grab onto some tangible point to talk about lol.
"The only way I know how to right the wrong that would be Madelyne's hallow empty existence forever. Reclaiming the unnatural energies that animated her all along. Psionics seeds I never even realized I planted." Even then, the method of drainage doesn't matter. Fact is, since her resurrection he was never at full power
He's never full power anyway, his inexperience pre-Shaman means he's mostly raw power without the skill or experience to use it properly.
Yeah he made her as a passive response etc, that still doesn't equate to any combat-showing/significance to anything. Pryor also chased him around a bit with their own psi-encounter so yeah I don't see the point
Again, never equated it to combat. All I was doing was adding context since you mentioned his powers being limited
Which they were, given a town being nearly destroyed drove him to collapse.
Considering Sinister one-shot his ass and wasn't bothered about Nate attacking him from all sides then yeah, he wasn't defending himself.
....of course you ignore the fact that Sinister was doing that as a whole to bait Nate into trying to TP him with the temptation of info, which he couldn't get.
Of course, you ignore the fact it's revealed that this was only possible due to very specific circumstances revealed in X-Man #19. It was due to the fact that Sinister put neuro-locks in Threnody's mind and once Nate ventured into her mind, this opened a direct channel back onto Nate's mind. Sinister even said, "the sheer force of your will, the raw power of your mind at large, was beyond even my considerable ability to penetrate." In fact, it was even revealed to be a "one-time
So that's more context omitted that you've just shown, but the actual instance doesn't actually use this "neuro-locks" excuse whatsoever lol. Sinister just baited Nate into his mind and then rechanneled his TP back at him 10x, which knocked him out. That's exactly what the comic states it is, so this excuse doesn't mean anything at all. Sinister didn't need to penetrate his head either, all he had to do was redirect his energies, easy enough.
He ate the attack given he took it head-on and wasn't really effected outside of the hunch. That's called "tanking" where we come from etc.
Screaming in agony and being hunched over is tanking
It wasn't a scream and Sinister wasn't really that threatened given Nate was ultimately one-shot.
.....because it was mentioned as such? Like do you not know what Thanosi are? There's a few of them etc.
I know what Thanosi is. What I am looking for is evidence. Comics, citations, scans
Stonewalling for citations when a quick google search gets you the issue but k.
All wank, no substance. Notice how you've made zero attempt to actually address any of the debunkings outside of the Cable fight? That's because there's nothing to address, he hit them with sucker punches and/or they weren't trying to fight back, and you think that's a direct line to scale from for some bizarre reason. He also got his ass kicked by Sinister and co so yeah, this is just wank, sorry. Maybe if we were talking about Shaman or Life Seed you'd have a point, this version of Nate was burning down getting close to destroying a town, that's barely mid-tier shit brudda.
I literally addressed every feat, and you were wrong in some aspect about everyone my guy
Despite saying this, your actual point is 100% lacking. All of the instances were sucker-punches: nothing stated about that. Xavier kicking Nate's ass with a single strike: nothing stated about that, in fact you mention in the same post you didn't discuss the full fight, because it's all a big anti-feat for the guy. Going into detail about mostly irrelevant stuff doesn't count as being "wrong" about it.
Sinister feat had context you continue to omit
It didn't. The comic itself explains what happens directly to your face, so unless you happen to be more knowledgeable than the author in this case, it's basically fan-canon.
Considering you've made zero attempt to actually address what Doom has and the fact that Pre-Shaman Nate has zero planetary TP feats to his name, this is a open/shut case. No one would agree with you that this version of Nate is doing anything, let alone stronger than Xavier AND Phoenix lol.
Not once did I say he was stronger than Phoenix
"shown superiority to the likes of Xavier, Phoenix" and consistent mentioning of the Jean statement seem to imply otherwise etc.
I merely brough up a feat and recited what was stated in the comic. He performed one feat that the Phoenix didn't manage to accomplish
I mean cool but as stated it doesn't really change any of the actual match any.
Is he stronger than Xavier? Definitely
Lol this is so much wank: Nate's raw power is stronger with Shaman sure but their only fight had Xavier kick his ass with one proper strike and then backing off to stop people getting hurt by their potential brawl. Xavier was fine, Nate was about to collapse doing exactly nothing to him or damaging the psi-armor. You can mention the astral plane shit but it means nothing when Xavier has feats that take a fat dump all over Nate of which he can't do to him. No contest. Your entire point hinges on cheap shots, wacky Nate scaling to his biggest feats (which he doesn't perform to at all pre-Shaman) and then acting like his fights totally aren't mostly context-filled and/or bad (Mysterio/Exodus/Sinister/Prime Sentinels blocking him out)
Doom gets shut down. Still waiting on some evidence from Doom
I already stated Doom blocked a planetary psi-wave that enslaved almost all of the planet, Nate has zero planetary showings pre-Shaman. Like it's kinda common sense in that regard.
@professorrespect: My laptop is acting funny. Not letting me quote stuff. I'll try to fix it in the morning. Should be able to still make out my counters.
K
Round 1: Sorcerers.
TP wont work on Daniel and he can just disrupt their attempts at TPing by constantly possessing the telepath team like he did against the Avengers. Afterwards, the TP team get steamrolled by hax.
Round 2:
I'd probably give the win to Emma Frost over Scarlet Witch but I agree with everything else. I think people really just don't know Brother Voodoo enough so they don't know what he's capable of, especially in conjunction with his brother's spirit.
@mage101: Not at all. Just clarifying the circumstances around both showings, Strange clearly isn't at that level all the time.
R1: Other than Wiccan, all have competent defenses against TP, while mutants have virtually no defense to any semi-decent magic. Sorcerers annihilate them.
R2:
R3: With prep-god Doom there + three time manipulators, the sorcerers stomp even harder than in R1.
Please Log In to post.
Log in to comment