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#1 Edited by Chronicplane (9365 posts) - - Show Bio

Round II | Match III:

maestromage

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Characters:

  • Yuma Kuga (5)
  • Hyuse (5)

Perks:

  • 2 Extra Character points(4)
  • Full knowledge(5)
  • 20 hobos on bath salts(1)
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ashrym

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Characters:

  • Katana (3)
  • Jason Todd (2)
  • Roy Harper (1)

Perks:

  • 2 character points traded for 3 perk points (-2)
  • Basic Knowledge (3)
  • Choose Battlefield (4)
  • 20 Minutes of Prep (3)
  • Unlimited Ammo -- Roy Harper (3)

Tournament Stipulations:

  1. 16 Participants, be willing to extend if enough interested
  2. 8 Character Points to spend
  3. 10 Perk points to spend
  4. 14 Day Deadline to post, Though I'm willing to extend if you give a good enough reason(Will bump you every 3 days)
  5. No Unfair Hax(You should know what this means, if you are using hax abilities obviously over limits, you will be kicked)
  6. No Space Manipulation
  7. No Reality Warping
  8. No Matter Manipulation
  9. No Time Manipulation, Though speeding up ones own time is allowed.
  10. Flight is allowed but is restricted to 30 ft(equivalent of a three story building) and no more
  11. Summons/Duplicates/Constructs limited to Navy Seal Team quality. You cannot summon anything or duplicate enough to overwhelm a 12 man Navy Seal Team with ease
  12. TP is limited to Mind Reading
  13. TK is allowed but cannot be used directly on opponents
  14. No BFR
  15. Standard Gear, which means any gear consistently used for a long period of time(like an entire run for example) and still qualifies as street tier unless otherwise specified
  16. Teamwork is a complete factor. The only rule with teamwork is that characters will not directly fight each other.
  17. Tie-In comic feats for Live Action characters allowed
  18. Anime characters are Anime/Manga composite(FMA characters are Brotherhood)
  19. DC is composite Post-Crisis/New52/Rebirth
  20. Marvel is Earth 616 unless stated otherwise
  21. For each round there will either be an extra obstacle to deal with or there will be a certain goal to reach
  22. If you have a problem with a character's pricing, let me know, I'm open to change
  23. Only join if you have intentions of finishing, otherwise don't bother
  24. You must have completed a CaV, a Tourney match or have 500 posts or more
  25. Link to the tournament

Voting Rules:

  1. Only the two participants are allowed to debate
  2. If you want to be tagged to vote at the end, say "T4V" or "TAEP" if you want to be tagged for every post
  3. Vote for whoever was the best debater, or who convinced you more, not for which team you think would win
  4. Make sure to provide reasoning for your vote
  5. Votes based on obvious character bias will not be counted
  6. Be respectful, honorable, and civil towards eachother

Fight Takes Place:

Out of view from the other team. No one there except the teams. maestromage is the red circle and Ashrym is the blue circle

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#2 Posted by Chronicplane (9365 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by maestromage (1474 posts) - - Show Bio

@ashrym I have an opener that I can copy paste so should I go first?

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#4 Posted by Ashrym (3037 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by maestromage (1474 posts) - - Show Bio

Intro Post - Kuga Yuma and Hyuse, The Neighbours

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Important Explanations:

First I thought I should explain a couple of things about the power system and the series so you don't get confused later on. Kuga Yuma and Hyuse are both characters from the not-popular-enough Shounen Jump manga series World Trigger. The series centres around the characters in the organization called Border who use the technology known as "triggers" taken from the aliens known as "Neighbours" (inventive name, I know). When using a trigger, the user's body is replaced with a body made from Trion (the chakra or ki of the power system) which is much more durable than a regular body. They also get access to various Trion powered gear and such (annoyingly also called triggers). For the purposes of this battle, the destruction of the Trion body ("bailout" as it's called in the series) will obviously count as a loss. Combatants are either an attacker, a shooter/gunner, a sniper (or an all-rounder

Border agents make up squads (divided into B-Rank and A-Rank), who participate in squad rank wards to determine the ranking of squads, and there are also solo rank wars (1v1 matches) to determine individual ranking. The last thing worth mentioning is that in rank wars, a points system is used. When you take down an opponent, you gain points in the weapon you used to take them down. In solo rank wars, if you bail out you also lose points. They also scale how many points you lose/gain based on the point differential. So, if you have a lot more points than someone, you won't get many points for beating them, but you'll lose a lot if you lose to them. I'll bring this up again later so keep it in mind.

With that out of the way, let's get into this properly.

As Yuma and Hyuse (and basically all WT characters with normal triggers) have more or less the same stats except speed, I decided it would make more sense to just do both at the same time instead of repeating things.

Durability:

Trion bodies are very durable, and the Author of the manga confirmed that they could tank both missiles and re-entry:

Q.178: Chapter 1 said that tanks and fighter aircrafts’ attacks didn’t work on trion bodies, but can agents in trion bodies not be damaged too? Or are they not durable enough and will bailout?

I think a trion body for combat use will be totally fine against the gun of a tank or a missile.

Ashihara Daisuke
Q.253: What happens to trion bodies if they’re tossed into outer space?
I think they will probably go into sleep mode and float in satellite orbit. If they plunge into the atmosphere of a planet, they will land on the surface of the land (or sea) without burning up.Ashihara Daisuke

On top of this, it was stated directly by Arashiyama that all trion combat bodies have the same durability. Therefore, durability feats can be shared across different characters.

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Scan 1: The statement from Arashiyama

Scan 2-3: Okudera gets punched through 10(ish) buildings by a Rabbit and is fine to keep fighting.

And Trion bodies taking punches from Rabbit is consistent in case you are wondering (and also their only real durability feat):

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Scan 1: Just another striking feat for Rabbits

Scan 2-3: Kikuchihara tanking a punch from a Rabbit (he was baiting the Rabbit in so his teammates could attack)

The other thing they have to offer defence-wise is their shields. The TLDR is that their shields can tank/no-sell attacks that put holes in trion bodies, showcasing their significantly superior durability. Now to prove that:

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Scan 1: Kurama blocks Nasu's viper bullets with his shield, almost no-selling them

Scan 2: Nasu puts holes in a trion body with her viper bullets

Another example would be this:

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Here Izumi blocks a shot from the Egret sniper with his shield (also a good speed feat). This is particularly impressive most shields can't block egret, it can usually only be blocked by a focused shield, which is much smaller, but Izumi can block egret with a shield that covers his body due to his high trion.

The important thing to note is that the more trion one has, the more durable your shield is. Here are the trion levels of the relevant characters:

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As we see here, Yuma has more trion than Kuruma who can block trion body destroying bullets, and Hyuse has more trion than Izumi who can block egret which is even more powerful (ignore Hyuse's other stats being so high, that's with a different trigger that he doesn't have here).

So yeah Trion Bodies << Yuma's Shield << Hyuse's shield

Attack Power:

The main way to gauge the power of the weapons in world trigger is from their ability to damage trion bodies:

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Scan 1: Yuma decapitating trion bodies

Scan 2: Hyuse bisecting trion bodies

Scan 3: Hyuse damaging the leg of a trion body with his bullets

There are more examples of similar, but it's just more of the same. I can give more example if need be, but I don't think it's really necessary. The important part is that they can damage Trion bodies easily, the durability of which I've already shown.

Now onto the real stuff:

Hyuse

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Bio:

Hyuse is a neighbour who fought against Border in the second large scale invasion. In return for agreeing to be a guide, Hyuse was allowed to join the Tamakoma-2 squad so that he may go on the away mission and return to his homeland of Aftokrator.

Gear:

The following is Hyuse's trigger setup:

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I'll go through what those are. First in his main hand:

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Scan 1: Kogetsu, which is just a sword made of trion

Scan 2: Senkuu is an optional trigger for Kogetsu that temporarily extends the range of the sword to 15m for a pseudo ranged attack. I would show Hyuse using it but he never has lol

Scan 3: The shield trigger which I already talked about earlier. The other thing to note is that the shield can be spawned up to a range of around 25m if need be, as seen in Scan 4-5.

Then in his sub-hand:

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Scan 1-2: The viper trigger, which is a bullet trigger that can change direction mid-flight. Hyuse can also fire them straight as we see in the first image.

Scan 3-4: The escudo trigger that raises a barrier out of an object. Two things to note; Escudo require physical contact (i.e. he needs to touch the ground to make them rise up). The second thing to note is that they are more durable than the shield trigger, as we see it basically no-sell a shot from Ibis (a sniper trigger more powerful than Egret that even Hyuse's shield can't stop. Also, Escudo stays up permanently unless destroyed.

Then there's just shield again.

Scan 5: The bagworm trigger is simply a cloak that prevents the user from appearing on radar. Probably won't be useful in this match but eh whatever.

One important thing is that Hyuse can only use two triggers at once, one from his main hand and one from his sub-hand (the exception to this is Senkuu, which can be used at the same time as Kogetsu due to obvious reasons).

So there you have it, Hyuse's gear. One other thing I need to mention that all border agents (and I think all trigger users in general) have is their communication technology. It seems to be some kind of Radiotelepathy (similar to that used by the Authority in Wildstorm comics for those of you familiar with that team) as we frequently see people talking to their teammates without moving their mouths and also openly discussing strategies mid-fight without their opponents hearing them.

For example, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51glXt_yQ_E Watch this video and skip to 7:00. Though the fight is heavily edited, we clearly see Kazama squad communicating without speaking and without Enedora hearing them, and there are several more such examples. This suggests that their radio communication is somehow telepathic in nature, though this is never explained. Regardless of how it works, this will allow Yuma and Hyuse to freely communicate mid-battle without worrying about being overheard by the enemy team.

Skill:

Hyuse is pretty darn skilled with his sword, which I will go on to demonstrate.

I guess for basics, I'll show one of the very few fodder feats in the series:

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Scan 1-2: Here we have Hyuse clearing through groups of more or less fodder C-rank agents with ease 4 at a time (C-rank agents are trainees).

Scan 3-4: Here Hyuse easily beats 3 C-rank agents who are close to becoming B-rank, and they seemed to have at least a little skill (though nothing impressive).

Now to get into feats against actually skilled opponents. There will be a lot of scaling based on points so let me explain a little bit more. Agents start at B-rank with 4000 points. When you reach 6000 points with both a gunner and an attacker trigger then you are officially an all-rounder (yeah all-rounders aren't snipers except for one character idk why). That is to say, you are considered to be pretty good once you have 6k points. Upon reaching 8000 points in a weapon, you are considered to have reached "master-class". So basically anyone with 8k+ points is very good. Very few B-rank agents (aside from the Ace of your squad who is A-rank in terms of ability) have more than 8k points, and almost every (non-ace) character who does used to be A-rank, so keep that in mind. Anyways, the actual feats:

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So basically, we see that Hisato, Koarai, Miura and Tomoe all have over 7k points, making them close to being master tier fighters. They then fight in first-to-five-wins sword fighting matches with Hyuse, in which he basically stomps 3 of them. Then Hisato, after watching Hyuse fight 15 rounds and "memorizing his moves" just manages to take a single round off of him. This clearly shows that Hysue is above your average skilled swordsman. It gets better though:

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Scan 1 shows that Okudera and Koarai have 7k+ points, and they also have excellent teamwork in close combat. Kazama (The No.2 attacker) even states that they are almost as good as his own squad (the A-rank No.3 squad) which consists of 3 highly skilled attackers with excellent teamwork. For reference, Okudera and Koarai's squad is B-rank No. 6 currently. Despite the duo's individual skill and excellent teamwork, Tsuji is able to hold his own in a sword fight against the two of them (scan 2). We also see that Tsuji is a master tier fighter with 8.4k solo points (scan 3). Yet, when they had their sparring session, Tsuji was only able to take two rounds off of Hyuse. It's also worth noting that it is only after Hyuse 5-2s Tsuji that Tomoe says "he is amazing", which further cements the idea that master tier fighters are a tier above others, as it implies that 5-2 against a master tier is more impressive than 5-0 against people with 7k+ points (also Hyuse immediately noticed that Tsuji was better than the previous fighters).

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Here we see that Hyuse was able to match Ikoma in a sword fight. Ikoma being the No.6 attacker, and one of the only 7 attackers in Border with more than 10k points with 11.1k (Scan 1-2). Given the skill gap with a 1k point difference (Tsuji compared to Koarai for example), we can infer that Ikoma is significantly more skilled than Tsuji given that there's a 3k point difference between them. And yet Hyuse matched him evenly (if you're wondering who won, Hyuse won by default because Ikoma basically cheated and accidentally used one of his other triggers accidentally).

If you're wondering how many points Hyuse has, he has like 4.3k because he only just joined border lol

Speed:

Though not as fast as Yuma, Hyuse can definitely hang in the speed department and he's hardly a slouch himself.

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Scan 1: One of Hyuse's few quantifiable speed feats (the rest is scaling based). Despite not knowing that Karasuma's bullets can turn, when they do so and go around his shield he reacts to it and readjusts his trigger to block it.

Scan 2-4: Miura (who I showed Hysue stomping) bullet and sniper timing

San 5: Tomoe (who I also showed Hyuse stomping) moving at comparable speed to bullets.

The last thing speed wise would be scaling him to Yuma (who is pretty darn fast as I will go on to show)

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Here we see that Hyuse was able to go 8-12 against Yuma, despite the fact that he was still getting used to his triggers (in particular Viper, which is the hardest trigger to use in border due to the user having to program its precise movements mid-flight).

This should be enough to show that Hyuse is at least a casual bullet timer, and can also fight at similar speeds.

Kuga Yuma

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Bio:

Yuma is also a Neighbour. He spent most of his life travelling around countries in the Neighbourhood with his father until his father's death. He then spent 3 years roaming around with only his companion replica (basically a robot made of trion) until arriving in Japan. Various events occur and Yuma ends up forming Tamakoma-2 with Osamu and Chika in the hopes of going to the Neighbourhood and rescuing Chika's brother and friend who were kidnapped years earlier.

Gear:

Yuma's trigger set is the follows:

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The only new triggers here are Scorpion and Grasshopper. Let's talk about Scorpion:

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(backwards)

Scan 3-4 show the series description of Scorpion. TLDR it's a blade that can have it's shape changed and can come out anywhere on the user's body. Scan 1 shows Yuma blocking a sword swing by making a scorpion blade come out of his head and Scan 2 shows Yuma attacking Ko with a foot Scorpion blade and then extending another blade from his knee. These are just some example of the kind of things one can do with Scorpion.

Next, let's talk about Grasshopper. Grasshopper simply allows Yuma to place a platform (or many platforms) that will accelerate anything it touches at high speed (each individual platform is single use). When he has Grasshopper out, it appears as a small blue sphere in his hand.

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The trigger is mainly used for high-speed movement and extra mobility. Scan 1 shows Yuma using the "pinball" technique, which involves rapidly travelling between several grasshopper platforms around the opponent, and Scan 2-3 are just an example of how Grasshopper enhances Yuma's already high speed in combat. Again, Yuma has done many more things with Grasshopper but I don't want

Other than those two, Yuma just has Shield and Bagworm, both of which I've already discussed (and of course, he can also use the radiotelepathy I mentioned in Hyuse's gear section.

Skill:

Yuma is even more skilled than Hyuse, though not by a huge margin. He is also pretty darn experienced. As I mentioned in Yuma's bio, he spent 6 years travelling and training and fighting with his dad, and then a further three years travelling by himself (and Replica) before even joining border. His experience fighting shows in most if not all of his fights

First, let's look at Yuma vs Arafune:

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First, we can see that Arafune has 8.2k points with Kogetsu (Scan 1) and is a master tier swordsman. Yuma is able to fight Arafune despite being sniped at by his teammate. However, the impressive part comes after Yuma gets hit by a surprise sniper shot. He immediately puts feints with a Grasshopper platform behind him, successfully baiting in Arafune and then skillfully takes out Arafune's legs. This was a great feat of (extremely) quick thinking by Yuma, as well as great environmental awareness (he knew he had that wall behind him he could jump off of) and it also shows how unfazed he is by unforeseen events.

Next opponent I want to talk about for Yuma is Murakami Ko, the No.4 ranked attacker.

Ko has a special ability (called a side effect) of super-enhanced sleep learning:

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Scans 1-3: Ko vs Yuma. In the first 5 rounds, Yuma beats Ko because Ko has never fought Yuma before and isn't familiar with his moves (Yuma also has an advantage in a random encounter due to being a much more experienced fighter). However, after a simple 15-minute nap Ko beats Yuma 5-0 in the second half. Scan 4 describes his ability, stating that he "assimilates 100% of what he experiences into his fighting repertoire". This taskmaster-esque ability allowed him to quickly become one of the best attackers in Border. However, in Scan 5 he states that he can't beat Kageura Konami Kazama or Tachikawa (tfw 4/5 top attackers have names beginning with K lol)

Despite this, Yuma is actually able to hold his own against Ko in their next match (despite missing an arm) and ends up beating him (contextually):

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He was only able to beat Ko due to taking the fight underwater where Ko didn't have experience fighting (but I guess Yuma does lol) but it's still impressive nonetheless. However, this isn't what I wanted to highlight. One of the people that Ko noted he can't beat for a majority is Kageura.

(Oh yeah if you're wondering why there are 4 people better than Ko but Ko is ranked No.4 instead of No.5, it's because Kage lost a lot of points lmao. He has an emotion perception side effect where he can "feel" what emotions people are thinking of him, and unpleasant emotions feel unpleasant for him. He got upset at one of the Border higher-ups and punched him in the face and his squad got demoted from A-rank and he lost 10k points lol).

So in terms of ability Kage is the real No.4 attacker (ok well technically he should be No.5 because Jin can match Tachikawa and also isn't ranked accurately but whatever), but the impressive part is the fact that he's skilled enough to circumvent Ko's super learning side effect. Despite having fought many times, and despite the insane improvement that Ko can achieve after sleeping after one match, Ko still can't beat Kage for a majority. However, Yuma can actually fight Kage pretty decently:

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Scan 1-2 is Yuma holding his own with Kage briefly on two separate occasions (in the second Yuma was also missing an arm and a leg)

Scan 3 actually shows the individual win rates between Yuma Kage and Ko, and Yuma's win rate against Kage is 47.6% which is pretty close to 50-50. Though Yuma himself isn't good enough to get around Ko's side effect, he's really not far behind someone who can.

All in all, Yuma is a pretty damn skilled fighter with a lot of experience under his belt. I'll show some more feats that are more tactical in the strategy section.

Oh yeah last we heard Yuma had 5.1k points, but that was a while back and was only like a month after he made B-rank if you are wondering.

Speed:

Yuma actually has some of the best (quantifiable) speed feats in the series and is consistently portrayed as pretty darn fast.

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First of all, here Yuma reacts to a surprise (well he knew the sniper was somewhere in the area but didn't know where or when they'd fire) sniper attack and activates Grasshopper fast enough to dodge it. This is particularly impressive because the sniper rifle used here was "Lightning", which is Border's fastest sniper rifle (the speed scales with the amount of trion you have). High-end sniper rifles have speed just under Mach 3, but given the advanced tech that Border possesses, it Lightning could easily (and probably should) be faster. Solid supersonic reaction feat for Yuma.

Yuma has even better feats though:

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Scan 1-2 shows Yuma moving at afterimage speed to Ikoma in a fight. Ikoma even states that "you can't track him when he's that close", and this is the same Ikoma that matched Hyuse. Ikoma also states that Yuma has gotten significantly faster, and this happened 3 matches after the first speed feat I showed for Yuma.

Scan 3 shows Yuma reacting to the Lightning sniper again, except this time he does it from much closer and he actually moves his entire body out of the way of the shot.

These feats should solidly cement Yuma as a supersonic fighter, and he also has crazy mobility due to Grasshopper.

Intelligence/Strategy of Yuma and Hyuse

I thought I would dedicate a section to displaying the tactical prowess of my team (mainly Yuma because he has more feats) and also a little of what they can do with their teamwork. Most of this is is going to be them using their triggers in funky ways, so buckle up kids:

(some of these are skill feats I guess but eh)

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Scan 1-3: Yuma cuts off his own arm (it was already injured tbf but still) and uses it as bait in order to take down a sniper

Scan 4-6: Yuma avoids homing bullets from Ninomiya by rushing forward with Grasshopper, but most importantly he semi-successfully copies Kageura's mantis technique in an attempt to take down Ninomiya. Mantis is a technique that Kage made himself that involves combining two scorpions together for a much longer range (kage uses it a bit like a whip), and he's the only one who uses it. On top of that, this match was Yuma's first time even fighting Kage and seeing the technique, and yet he was able to copy it and use it himself (whilst missing two limbs and with a massive hole in his body no less).

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Scan 1: Yuma uses Scorpion to temporarily prevent Trion loss (similar to blood loss) after being injured.

Scan 2-3: Yuma uses Grasshopper to fling debris at an opponent, leaving them open to being sniped

Scan 4-5: Yuma uses Grasshopper, hiding the activation behind his back, on a falling piece of debris with a wire attached to it in order to trip up an opponent leading to a kill.

Already we've seen Yuma doing a lot of funky stuff with Scorpion and Grasshopper. What's important to note is that more or less all of these strategies were improvised/thought up on the spot. I'm not trying to suggest that Yuma will pull any of these in this fight, but I'm showing them as an example of the kind of interesting strategies he can think up in seconds and improvise in the middle of a fight.

Now for some examples with Hyuse and some team plays:

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Scan 1: Hyuse incapacitates Taichi by trapping him between two escudo barriers

Scan 2-4: Hyuse uses a well-timed Escudo to launch he and Yuma to the top floor and then Yuma uses Grasshopper on them both to launch them to the floor.

These are just some examples of teamwork between the two, to give you an idea of what they can do and think up in the middle of a fight.

Summary

  • Yuma and Hyuse are both extremely durable with their Trion bodies
  • Their shields are even more so (especially Hyuse's)
  • The weapons are powerful enough to tear through Trion bodies easily
  • They are both casual bullet timers and should be around the supersonic area, with Yuma being the faster of the two
  • They are both extremely skilled melee fighters.
  • They are both very capable in terms of figuring out strategies mid-fight, and they have pretty decent teamwork

I'll hold off on any specific strategies until I see what your team can do

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#6 Posted by maestromage (1474 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by Chronicplane (9365 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Posted by Ashrym (3037 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Edited by Ashrym (3037 posts) - - Show Bio

Intro Post

Roy Harper -- Arsenal

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Born as Roy Harper, Arsenal was orphaned and taken in by Green Arrow. Oliver Queen took Roy's strong archery skills and trained him until Roy became an expert marksman. However, knowing how to hold your own in combat doesn't prepare you for all of life's challenges. A run of unfortunate events, including the Teen Titans disbanding, a break-up, and some struggles with Green Arrow, opened the door to a treacherous path for Roy. He leaned on drugs to get through the hard times.

While Roy’s since gotten clean, like everyone who’s struggled with substance abuse, addiction remains a constant conflict for him. But Arsenal’s thrived as a hero in spite of it. He's exhibited courage and skill at Green Arrow's side, as a member of the Titans, and fighting alongside another hero with a dark past, Red Hood. Though he's perhaps suffered more than most, Arsenal continues to battle bravely, both against foes and his inner demons.

Unlike my other characters, Roy has no supernatural abilities. He is an expert marksman, a technological guru, and rides the line between bravery and stupidity.

Intellect

This is the real reason to add Roy to a team.

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He's Batman level smart. N52 made Roy into the engineering super-genius behind Green Arrow's tech and his own.

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Roy punked SHADE's most advanced scientific tracking with a glance in seconds when an experienced operator said it could not be done and reconfigured it to work, and in comparison to Ray Palmer, an extremely high end scientist in the DC universe standing right there while Roy obviously solved the issue before anyone did (or possibly they were not capable).

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The context behind that image was Roy used his toy robot to interface with an alien nano-tech WMD and reprogram it in a few minutes while the other two were losing a fight.

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Roy did not spend the entire hour on that ship studying the alien power drive. In less than an hour he understood it better than the ship's engineer and started theorizing upgrades.

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In a few hours of tinkering, Roy built a weapon 1.5x times the necessary output and significantly more powerful than any weapon on the planet at that time. He could have made it better but needed parts.

Skill and Speed

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Four shots at once, two shots three times in such rapid succession the first couple is still there after the third couple is fired (speed feat and skill), blows up a truck following with a kick and simultaneously shooting an electrically charged arrow behind him, disarms Cheshire by shoot through her blade while she is in active combat, ricochet shot, easily dodges rapid fire surprise attacks, easily overwhelms room full of armed drug dealers, and shoots and arrow with an arrow. I can find more skill and speed feats if needed.

Roy is actually almost as skilled in combat as Nightwing and a brilliant improviser and prepper.

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Roy's speed and rate of fire is so far beyond Nightwing's speed that Wally West (Flash) needed to save Nightwing from the assault. Roy predicted that response to demonstrate how his tactics and tech can take out the fastest man alive. That was a dozen arrows fired faster than they were reaching extremely close range. Roy is also fast enough to sucker punch Flash.

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Roy's intellect is what gave him the win over Dick Grayson and Wally West. He can do the same to your team. He can also tank a frying pan to the face by a peak physical opponent.

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Roy has feats striking and tanking superhumans too. And dodging bullets as shown earlier. Roy is enough of a challenge to keep your team busy, let alone Jason or Tatsu.

Strength

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Easily strong enough to hold a man up by his throat one-handed. Also strong enough to through Donna Troy with her own lasso.

Arrows

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Piercing and explosive arrows are common for Arsenal to use. The two images provided show that the explosive power exceeds Donna Troy's attack. Other assorted arrows include zip lines and grappling lines, shock arrows, glue arrows, flares and incendiaries, net arrows, and more.

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Roy's explosive arrows can be automatically detonated or set to a timer, and can easily destroy a vehicle, much more so human level durability.

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And a quick example of a taser just to show you he has those too. The Edison experiment that killed Topsy the elephant was well over 6000 volts, for reference.

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As for specialty arrows here are some examples.

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Arsenal's biggest potential in a fight is his access to technology and the ability to use or modify it quickly and effectively.

I also opened with my weakest character instead of my strongest to make a point here. You were demonstrating speed with an example of sniper fire.

Scan 2-4: Miura (who I showed Hysue stomping) bullet and sniper timing

and

First of all, here Yuma reacts to a surprise (well he knew the sniper was somewhere in the area but didn't know where or when they'd fire) sniper attack and activates Grasshopper fast enough to dodge it.

The issue I have with that is that the bullet from the snipers are obviously slower by the time each reaches it's target on top of the distance fired taking time makes the such an example not as good as it appears. I gave an example of Roy dodging point close range automatic fire after his opponents shot at him from behind here. Because it's a surprise attack from behind, it's obviously not aim dodging etc; it's a bullet timing feat.

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My slowest character has competitive enough speed based on bullet timing / dodging to your characters. He was called Speedy before Red Arrow or Arsenal specifically because of how fast he is.

I am also going to link this respect thread for Dick Grayson so that you really understand the skill level Roy is showing in his fights against Dick. In the notable fights section you can see Nightwing's performances against Batman, Midnighter (GG, one of the most wanked characters on comicvine), and Bronze Tiger as examples. Nightwing, Red Hood, and Cassandra Cain are the Batman proteges who have been shown capable of defeating Batman.

They are both extremely skilled melee fighters.

Arsenal is an extremely skilled melee and ranged fighter. When I show his performance against Nightwing, it's scaled against one of top tier martial artist in the DC universe, not a group of individual fighters in the world who grind out a point based ranking system.

My least skilled and slowest team member is comparable to your characters.

Jason Todd -- Red Hood

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Jason Todd was the second Robin, taken in by Batman to help fight his war on crime in Gotham. Jason was brutally murdered by the Joker and came back from the dead, after which Talia al Ghul found him and healed him with the power of the Lazarus Pit. Jason went from being a weapon for Batman to a weapon for Talia as she had him train with elite members of the League of Assassins such as Lady Shiva and Bronze Tiger, and eventually some of the greatest specialists in the world to enhance and broaden his skills in the arts of killing.

Talia introduced Jason to Ducra and the All Caste to because even before he became Robin he managed to create a mystical attack merely by watching her attempts and succeeding where she had failed. Jason trained with this mystical society to become a living weapon greater than he could ever become under the training of Batman or the League of Assassins. Ducra was training him as a weapon to fight the immortal beings known as the Untitled.

Under Ducra's tutelage and All Caste training, Jason was the first human in a thousand years to survive the cleansing. He eventually left the All Caste and after a period of hostility with Batman, who had never avenged his death, Jason fulfilled his destiny to defeat the Untitled.

Now he fights crime on his own terms.

Skill

It is necessary to point out that Red Hood was holding back against Batman. The opposite is true for Batman, who was unable to hold back and beat Jason.

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Jason excels at taking advantage of openings and mistakes, and he uses his banter to create those openings and mistakes. Those images also demonstrate that while Jason was holding back Batman was not able to deal with Jason and could not hold back.

Jason also demonstrated Robin (Damian Wayne) was completely outclassed in their battle.

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Jason fights Amazon's like Artemis and she noticed he was holding back.

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I'll save more specific skill feats for later.

Speed

Jason is fast enough to blitz a SWAT team before Bullock can draw. He has plenty of speed.

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Both shot, Jason was chained up point blank, and he easily evaded both. He also demonstrated that he could kill a man while chained up using a fountain pen and his foot. Boomerang and the other two guards were dropped by Jason's chest taser.

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Fast enough to blitz those guards who had him surrounded at point blank range before any fired a single shot.

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Jason's All-Caste training included training in speed because the speed of a typical Robin trained by Batman or an elite assassin with custom training by the best the Talia could buy was slow by All-Caste standards. The All-Caste show after-image speed as well, since you made a point of that in your opener.

When bullets are too slow Jason switches to melee speed (for him) as an upgrade.

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Jason blitzed her along with the Iron Rule when he gave into becoming a living weapon. She is clearly an extremely casual bullet timer at minimum and he switched from guns to H2H in his attack on her.

Strength

Jason Todd has significantly higher strength than a peak human like Batman. At this point it's unclear why, but the feats speak for themselves.

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After holding his breath for a long time no-selling freezing water he could make a superhuman leap while breaking through the frozen surface of the water. He can impale a Monday with a heavy wooden post hard enough to lift the giant construct off the ground and later rip the beast apart with leverage working against him. He can casually embed Wingman's head in a concrete prison wall.

Jason Todd throws weight around pretty casually.

Durability

Stealth and Intelligence

Red Hood typically carries an assortment of devices including a grappling gun, high tech blades and knives, high tech pistols, surveillance equipment, miniature explosives, lock picks, a crowbar, and often an assortment of more exotic high tech alien weapons for special occasions. Of key note is his chest taser.

Taser

Of all his common equipment, the taser plate deserves a specific mention because of how effective it is. This is his high powered ace-in-the-hole move.

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The taser can bypass Batman's insulated armor, and not having a full charge can drop Artemis briefly. This is what a big charge looks like...

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It one shots a large room with many opponents.

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Another fodder, Anarky (which was bright enough to light up the sky), Captain Boomerang and 2 more fodders, another shot of the fodder in the large room re HIVE and a demonstration that he was selective in his targets as he left one to point his gun at, and Penguin's fodder while also selecting not to target Penguin. Notice the taser was used as an automated defense in the instance of Boomerang. It's been shown to have selective targeting, auto-defense, and manual over-ride.

Jason's All Caste training specifically provides mystical abilities that let him see and interact with beings or energy other people normally cannot see.

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This includes the manifestation of the all-blades.

All Blades

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Just some quick points:

Jason's chest taser is one of your team's biggest challenges. They do not have the speed to dodge an AoE electrical attack like that, or the durability when a partial charge could drop Artemis.

Tatsu Yamashiro -- Katana

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After the death of her family at the hands of the Yakuza, martial arts expert and samurai master Tatsu Yamashiro journeyed to America, where she became the vigilante hero known as Katana.

Trained in martial arts and swordsmanship from a young age, Katana possesses vast combat skills and tactical expertise. Katana wields the mystical Soultaker. The souls of her dead husband and countless others currently reside in her sword, and she is able to communicate with them (among other things).

Katana has been associated with the Outsiders, Birds of Prey, Justice League of America, and the Suicide Squad.

Katana is pretty straight forward. She is a master of the sword, martial arts, stealth, and tactics. Some quick RT links:

The interesting part of those images is that Katana has demonstrated superiority over her competitor as the world's greatest assassin as well as the predecessor holding that title.

Skill, Speed, and Stealth

These are Katana's key points and where the bulk of her information is listed.

Katana has the advantage of clearly demonstrating her ability beyond Black Canary in the new 52 Birds of Prey series.

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This first set demonstrates Canary's womance crush on Katana's skill. They also demonstrate that Katana could sense Canary was distracted the first time they ever sparred and coached her on it. Black Canary is considered to be in the top 10 martial artists in DC comics. Two things are very important here that don't show: (1) This all takes place before Katana becomes worthy of her sword, and (2) Katana is not demonstrating the speeds she normally shows.

The second set shows Canary telling Katana to hold back when Katana's reply indicates she is. Canary is struggling more against the same opponents. The other 2 images show Canary knows shooting Katana is pointless and also speaks to Katana's character. Starling (Ev) has demonstrated she could knock Canary out with a single blow (it broke her hand because Ev knew Canary has tanked some pretty solid hits and she needed to exceed those).

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The context on that third set is important. All the Birds of Prey had just been poisoned by Ivy and were weak. They needed time for recovery that they did not have. The difference here is that Katana had also been in a fight in that weakened state, fallen from the roof of a multi-story building in Gotham, was tasered and drugged, and broke her own arm in 2 places to escape the chains in which she was bound. The scans include evidence that the Dagger Clan fodder had better durability that typical ninjas as Canary didn't use enough force in her scream on them.

What is clearly demonstrated again is Katana, who is far more impacted than Canary going into the fight, was clearly doing better against the same opponents, who's speed was an issue for Canary and Batgirl. Those events took place over about a 22 hour period (there was a bomb counter) and before Katana's limited series in which she became worthy of the Soultaker. There was stated to be around 400 Dagger Clan ninjas.

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After that battle, it was stated the Dagger Clan are considered mostly brawlers by Sword Clan standards.

The below group demonstrates Katana moving from behind someone to intercept Green Arrow's point blank knocked and drawn arrow and cutting it in half. I also included a reminder of speed blitzing a master swordman in Black Lantern Maseo, avoiding chains that are fast enough to create whirl winds, casually overtaking a car doing 60 (this is in Japan so likely kmph), speed dashing past an opponent to cut him off from the weapons to where he was racing, catching an aircraft after it took off, various sword deflecting, and an opening into early Katana developing her danger sense while also blocking a lot of simultaneous attacks. It's a broad cross section of what to expect from someone like Katana.

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I originally thought the GA arrow feat was pretty impressive but then she duplicated it save Waller from Flag. She caught the bullet with her sword.

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Bullets and projectiles are nothing to Katana. Even energy is something she deflects casually and redirects strategically.

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Even more impressive is the fact she repeated the GA and Flag feats by intercepting General Zod's fist.

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Katana is extremely consistent with her speed, stealth and skill. She bullet times like other characters walk and breath.

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Stated to strike harder than those grenades.

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Easily deflects energy attacks even when here soul is transferred into Lady Eve's body.

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Yet another sneak attack out of nowhere (and signature move of cutting off hands), another example of running because it's faster than taking a car and driving across town, speed blitzing 3 ninja's faster than they can react, slicing 2 more ninjas faster than they can react while simultaneously speed dashing up an almost vertical incline.

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Katana and Harley can wade through troops faster than Boomerang (ie a Flash villain and used to speed) can drop a single opponent. Boomerang is not the joke people normally consider him. He was a spy for Australian government before he turned to crime and fought the Flash. He's highly skilled and he's fast too.

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That's 3 images showing how he blitzes a marketplace full of gun traffickers and one of him throwing a boomerang in synchronization with Deadshot to match hitting targets simultaneously. The example with Deadshot is a clear bullet timing feat and as shown Katana's speed makes a bullet timer like Boomerang look slow. Katana is clearly beyond typical bullet-timing in her feats.

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Those are 2 different fights where Katana's soul is in Lady Eve's body against Killer Croc. She has the ability to take on someone Batman needs special gear for and against whom Batman does struggle. She's hampered in a foreign body and does not have Soultaker available. She also grabbed Harley's mallet faster than Harley could react, and hit Croc hard enough to break the mallet.

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Croc is fast enough to blitz standard speed opponents and easily capable of handling multiple skilled opponents like Harley and Deadshot at once. Given that Deadshot or Harley have given Bats a fight, and Bats needs body armor and electrocharged knuckles to face Croc this clearly demonstrates that Katana's H2H skill when hampered by being in a foreign body still exceeds Batman.

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Outracing an explosion from within an elevator shaft Katana is also in. Out of the elevator shaft and also out of the building.

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Out races another explosion from point blank she ignited with Soultaker. Starling and the pilot are seen narrowly escaping while Katana started behind them and they caught up to here already fighting.

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That image shows Katana will always win bringing her knife to a gunfight, and she also had the speed to save Shun from the backfire.

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Katana also has notable combat against Rustam. The 3rd image was another FTE movement out of nowhere to block. This doubles as a durability feats for Soultaker after Rustam resurfaced in WW.

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Rustam's scimitars can cut a rift to the sun and send WW flying back. He did not do this in combat vs Katana obviously but it does demonstrate Soultaker's durability as a powerful magical weapon.

And there is her level of stealth, of course.

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I included Katana sensing attacks without seeing earlier. She's developed that to the point Enchantress cannot magically cloak herself, for example. Meanwhile, Katana can disappear from the middle of her team without a trace to the point even Martian Manhunter is unable to detect her, or demonstrate how she can hide in plain sight. Even if someone manages to overcome this sixth sense, her sword has it's own senses and will warn her.

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Katana gets the drop on stealthy and perceptive characters pretty much as a given these days. That's just a quick getting the drop on Bats but we can add Canary, Catwoman, and Deathstroke to that list. She has many feats if a person wants them.

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Those are cleaners. They wear invisibility stealth suits. The 1st, 3rd, and 4th image show Canary detect invisibility; she missed some as shown in the 2nd image. The fact she has feats to notice invisible characters is impressive.

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Starling has similar feats to Canary regarding the Cleaners and invisibility. Both failed to notice Katana at the same time until Katana chose to step out of the shadows.

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With context, the images show Katana sneaking up on Deadshot and Batman, who were sneaking out of Belle Reeve and no one could find them. Katana not only easily found both, she was clearly there undetected at least long enough to have been listening to their conversation about Deadshot's daughter and could have easily dropped both like she has in the past instead to prevent them from leaving. I included the reference to Deadshot's hand that she mentioned in the second image where she took her sword back from stealth and cut off Deadshot's hand before he could react (she has cut off soooooo many hands, lol). The other two are just another example where Katana and Harley were both able to sneak up on Enchantress and Batman.

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I wanted to add a few more examples of Katana's danger sense. The first image is the warning, the second the attack. The 3rd is her sword warning her and the 4th is a Cleaner in disguise whom the sword was detecting. Katana has two separate avenues of warning: (1) she specifically trained to sense attacks like a sixth sense as demonstrated -- this is like a knock off low grade spider sense, and (2) Soultaker will warn her of incoming attacks or threats based on it's own supernatural senses.

Between the two, it was impossible for a magically cloaked Enchantress to hide from Katana as shown above.

It's clear that Katana's skill with or without Soultaker meets or exceeds the top characters in DC comics at any given time. Add in her speed feats and she's well into the top tier, and easily.

Strength and Durability

Katana has shown she can draw on enhanced levels of strength similar to how she can draw on enhanced levels of speed..

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When her soul was entering Lady Eve's body, Lady Eve's body was capable of snapping leather restraints capable of restraining a gorilla as stated. It was then demonstrated that Katana is noticeably stronger than she was in Lady Eve's body. With the addition feat of snapping hand cuffs as shown against Croc earlier this places Katana capable of somehow drawing on strength greater than a gorilla.

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She's breaking into a Kobra air fortress without using Soultaker to cut through, casually one hand grab'n'tosses a fully grown and armored soldier, and does this while maintaining her balance unanchored. The second two images show the superhuman leap to the flying aircraft and demonstrate the level of active combat in which it's engaged while Katana does this. That's insanely impressive.

Here is Katana with a point blank baby-nuke that required Geoforce to require medical attention from right beside her. That's heat, shrapnel, and impact.

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She's got things like being thrown against a wall with some cracking (such as vs Zod earlier) or falling from a rooftop (such as in Gotham earlier) but not a lot of durability feats. It's typical action hero stuff where she's beyond what a person would expect in the real world but not particularly impressive compared to some of the feats at the street level. Fortunately, between here stealth, speed, agility, etc she rarely needs durability.

Soultaker

This is Katana's other dominant feature. Soultaker is a mystical weapon that imprisons the souls of those whom it's slain in a purgatory type afterlife called the Fukumaden.

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The master of the Soultaker is the master of the Fukumaden. Within the Fukumaden, Katana has shown low level abilities to manipulate traits of the dimension such as creating weapons and armor out of nothing. Those souls who dwell within are tortured souls who seek release. Katana generally commands those souls with some rare exceptions. This is where her husband Maseo currently dwells.

Prior to becoming worthy as the sword's master, Katana generally only received advice and warnings from those within the sword. After becoming worthy of Soultaker she has had more control of those within. Usually there is only one way in (death) and no way out other than the master releasing the souls.

What she typically does is more than enough to demonstrate the power of the Soultaker.

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Even when it's killing ageless fire breathing mind controlling space kaiju who plans on taking over.

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Cutting power is the most frequent use of the blade. It cuts through steel like nothing, extremely durable opponents, etc.

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It doesn't matter if the target is solid or not.

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Soultaker can deflect, reflect, or repel energy.

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Warnings for attacks are and such are just the tip of the iceberg. Soultaker gives Katana all types of advice and knowledge she would not normally possess. She trusts the blade's advice and it does not steer her wrong.

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In those images she held back 20ft amped flaming zombie Waller and amped flaming zombie Harley Quinn long enough for Deadshot to show up, Boomerang to ask for help moving a large armored robotic body, get rid of the body through a dimensional doorway, and close it while trying not to get sucked in. She also got knocked over and dazed by amped Harley there but got back up if you want another durability feat.

And just to give you an idea of what exactly Katana is magically restraining...

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Amanda Waller was infected with an alien zombie virus. She grew into a 20ft super strong, super durable, fire breathing monster. Cosmonut also has energy deflecting abilities and superhuman durability; he was melted and burned away. As you can see in the final image, Waller easily walk through thick reinforced cement wall of a top secret facility where this all started.

Katana no-sells bullets to insane degrees, demonstrates the ability to move or attack or block FTE, no sells deflecting energy blasts, and punks other bullet timers. She has outstanding reflexes for a street tier character.

Add in her skill and stealth, and the powerful Soultaker, and other street tier characters are in serious trouble regardless of their stats and abilities.

Prep -- 20 minutes

Red Hood and Arsenal use the prep time to plan explosives at key areas in the forest and add zip lines for mobility.

Strategy

My team has basic knowledge. They know about the possible attacks and defenses coming from your team. That means they will rely on AoE energy attacks from a primary sniper approach. You team has nice little shields but that isn't going to stop the flames and accompanying pressure waves. The timing on these attacks is waiting for your team to exit the cabin, at which point Roy will launch massive numbers of explosive arrows to carpet bomb your team. He doesn't need to hit them for this to be effective and their shields aren't large enough to protect them. HIs rate of fire as demonstrated will allow for more than they can handle.

Because all members of the Bat-family's back up plans have back up plans, this team is no different.

If your team somehow manages to evade or bypass the carpet bombing, my team will use their mobility and stealth to fall back, luring your team into the preplanned bomb traps to take them out as well as using hit and run tactics from Katana and Red Hood. Arsenal will continue falling back and start building a much larger bomb out of his unlimited ammo to do the trick while Katana and Red Hood harry your team. This should be enough given Soultaker's ability to deflect energy and bypass durability, the all-swords ability to bypass durability, and Jason's chest taser.

If the backup plan fails, the backup backup of Roy's uber bomb trap will take them out. He has the resources in his arsenal and skills to pull this off quickly.

Conclusion

It's true that your team is fast and skilled, and that they are far more durable than my team. Unfortunately for you, they are not faster than my team and are less skilled, and my team has the ability to bypass or overcome your durability and shields. My team also has the stealth / anti-stealth advantage with multiple ways to eliminate your characters from stealth even if the initial ambush fails.

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Hyuse and Kuga Yuma, Tamakoma-2's Aces

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Counters I - My Team's Offense:

This section is going to be quite short. To be perfectly honest, no one on your team tank can even dream to tank anything from either of my characters. They have both shown themselves able to cut through trion bodies like tissue paper, and trion bodies are notably more durable than any of your characters. I thought I should emphasise early on that for your team to win, they basically have to not get properly tagged.

Counters II - My Team's Defense:

I have more to say here. First of all, let's talk about Roy.

Obviously, Roy isn't going to be doing any damage to Yuma or Hyuse with his fists or normal arrows. However, I'm not even sure his explosive arrows are going to be effective either.

Roy's explosive arrows can be automatically detonated or set to a timer, and can easily destroy a vehicle, much more so human level durability.

I'd like to remind you of the author's statement that Trion Bodies would be fine against even missiles, and whilst you can say that this is just a statement, it does make a lot of sense in the context of the verse. When Neighbours first invaded, the conventional Japanese military was completely helpless to do anything against their technology. So the idea that they could walk off a tank shell is pretty solid, especially alongside their few durability feats. Roy's arrows seem to be around vehicle busting, which isn't enough to do any damage to trion bodies. Even if they were, both of my characters are casual bullet timers, so simply cutting them down or dodging or blocking them wouldn't be very hard. Given that my team has full knowledge, they'll know whether they can tank Roy's arrows or not (though WT characters almost never try to tank attacks anyway).

Next up is Jason. Similarly, he clearly isn't doing any damage to my team with his fists or guns, which just leaves his other gear, notably the chest taser.

Of all his common equipment, the taser plate deserves a specific mention because of how effective it is. This is his high powered ace-in-the-hole move

The only feat you showed that could be powerful enough to put down my team is the charge dropping Artemis, but that was only briefly and you also showed no durability feats for Artemis to give an idea of how impressive it is. I myself am not really familiar with the character so I don't know. That said, I don't know how effective the taser would be on Yuma and Hyuse given that their bodies are made entirely out of trion. I'm not suggesting it would be completely ineffective, but I don't think it would be as effective as it would against flesh and blood people (does trion conduct electricity? idk). That and its power seems not too impressive outside of dropping Artemis. That said, Yuma and Hyuse are smart guys, they can simply avoid touching Jason's chest, so they'll only get hit by it if Jason actively uses it. Even then, they'll be cautious of it if it's dangerous to them.

The other thing Jason has up his sleeve that is dangerous is the all-blades. However, it has been directly stated on-panel that they only work on magic beings:

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I'm aware that there has been some inconsistency surrounding this part of them however, this statement should trump other showings for a few reasons. For one, this comic was written by the person who created the all-blades in the first place (whereas the stories where they did work against non-magical beings were not IIRC). The second is that this statement is more recent than the showings of them working against non-magical beings, and as such could be considered a retcon. Regardless, the all-blades only work against magic, so they won't be of any use to Jason here.

Now, moving onto Katana lastly. Yet again, Katana lacks the ability to damage my team with her raw physicals. That said, this isn't too much of an issue for her as she primarily does damage with her sword anyways. The most impressive things you showed for her sword cutting wise would be cutting Major Force's hand off (though again I'm not exactly sure how durable he is) and the statement she made about cutting Zod. I definitely want to question if these showings are consistent for Soultaker or if they're just one-off showings. Assuming they are consistent, then Katana shouldn't have any trouble doing damage to my team. That said, again, my team do have full knowledge so they will simply avoid Katana's sword if they can't tank it. This is something that World Trigger characters are very used to despite their impressive durability because trion bodies are incapable of tanking anything from Trion based weaponry. There is then the issue of Katana's skill but we'll get onto that.

To conclude these first two sections, your team can't tank any attacks from my team at all, and for the most part, they will also struggle to deal any real damage to my team outside of Katana's sword.

Counters III - My Team's Skill and Speed:

This will probably be the central part of the debate so let's get right into it. Speed is simpler so let's cover that first, starting with Roy.

I gave an example of Roy dodging point close range automatic fire after his opponents shot at him from behind here. Because it's a surprise attack from behind, it's obviously not aim dodging etc; it's a bullet timing feat.

Using this as a feat for bullet timing is pretty weak. There is no way of knowing that Roy only started moving after the bullets were fired, so it could well have been aim-dodging. If he did only start moving after the bullets were fired (which nothing suggests) then it's a terribly sensory feat for Roy, because you're suggesting that he didn't realise there were like 5 dudes with guns behind him until they opened fire. Nothing in that image suggests that Roy only started moving after they opened fire. It could have been him reacting to bullets, but we just don't know. Given that this is your main speed feat for Roy, it doesn't make him look very impressive. As for what you said about my feats:

The issue I have with that is that the bullet from the snipers are obviously slower by the time each reaches it's target on top of the distance fired taking time makes the such an example not as good as it appears.

What does this even mean? The bullet from the snipers are slower by the time it reaches the target? Based on what? Where exactly does it say that the bullet slowed down? The point about the distance is true, but you also missed a lot. The person who reacted to the first sniper bullet is someone that Hyuse stomped and you also conveniently didn't address the feat I showed of Yuma reacting to a sniper shot from much closer and even moving his whole body out of the way of it.

My slowest character has competitive enough speed based on bullet timing / dodging to your characters.

Yeah no. The only real feat you showed for Roy is some very ambiguous "bullet timing" which really just looks like aim-dodging. On the other hand, I showed multiple extremely clear cut bullet timing feats for both of my characters, like this one:

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Where Hyuse reacts to Karasuma's bullets that change direction mid-flight and blocks several of them at once. Even Hyuse should be faster than Roy, let alone Yuma.

Now let's move onto Jason:

Both shot, Jason was chained up point blank, and he easily evaded both. He also demonstrated that he could kill a man while chained up using a fountain pen and his foot. Boomerang and the other two guards were dropped by Jason's chest taser.

Again, this feat is unclear. Your so-called "bullet-timing" happened offscreen, so we don't know what exactly happened and if Jason actually reacted to the bullets.

Fast enough to blitz those guards who had him surrounded at point blank range before any fired a single shot.

So blitzing fodder? Cool.

When bullets are too slow Jason switches to melee speed (for him) as an upgrade.

Jason blitzed her along with the Iron Rule when he gave into becoming a living weapon. She is clearly an extremely casual bullet timer at minimum and he switched from guns to H2H in his attack on her.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that Jason blitzed her from. Nothing in that scan suggesting that she failed to react to him, it simply looks like he outskilled her. Jason's speed magically increasing when he "gives into his training" doesn't really make much sense. I think the more reasonable explanation would just be that he compensated for the speed difference with his skill (especially given how she was clearly portrayed as faster than him in the first page you showed). So Jason's best feats are blitzing fodder and hanging with a bullet timer by "giving into his training". Aight.

Lastly, we're onto Katana, who you actually showed clear cut bullet timing feats for. Nice.

Side note: Why did you show so much for this part lol

To be honest, I don't think there is really much to refute for Katana's speed. There are a few things I could question, but there are so many feats of her bullet timing that it's clear to anyone that she is a casual bullet timer. The only thing I'm doubting is her explosion timing feats.

Outracing an explosion from within an elevator shaft Katana is also in. Out of the elevator shaft and also out of the building.

This has a similar problem to your "bullet timing" fats for Roy and Jason in that it's quite unclear what actually happened. Katana drops the dude, he explodes, and then we see Katana leaving a burning building. Given that the building was on fire she might have just left after he exploded. She also could have started moving before he exploded. The point is that it's really unclear what precisely happened there, and I don't think you can really say that she clearly outran an explosion.

Out races another explosion from point blank she ignited with Soultaker. Starling and the pilot are seen narrowly escaping while Katana started behind them and they caught up to here already fighting.

This one is similar, but it's actually clearly not explosion timing. When Katana lit the explosives, they didn't explode immediately. The was clearly a makeshift fuse on them, meaning that for her to outrun the explosion she would have to literally stand there and wait for it to explode and then run. Which a) we didn't see happen, and b) would be really stupid and make zero sense. So basically neither of your "explosion timing feats" are actually legit.

But your casual bullet timing feats are.

That said, I think my characters can still keep up if not outperform Katana when it comes to speed (Yuma in particular).

For one, almost all of your bullet timing feats for Katana are against handguns or automatic weapons. However, I've show Yuma reacting to and even moving his body out of the way of high tech sniper rifles. High-end sniper rifles have speeds over Mach 3 (compared to the usual Mach 1-2 speeds of handguns and automatic weapons), but what Yuma reacted to could easily be faster given that the tech of Border vastly surpasses our own and the fact that the Lightning sniper is specifically designed to maximize speed. However, that's not all. Yuma's speed is actually even better for two reasons. The first is simply his improvement. Yuma was able to react to the lightning sniper rifle in one of the early rank wars matches. Yet, as I showed in my first post, in a later match Ikoma states that "He's gotten way faster than I saw in the logs". This clearly shows that Yuma's speed significantly increased. So Yuma showed the ability to react to projectiles arguably faster than what Katana has reacted to when he was notably slower than he currently is. However, it gets even better. Take a look at this example:

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Here we see Yuma avoiding a lot of bullets from a skilled shooter whilst closing in (again, this was in an early match). However, Tsutsumi is still able to track Yuma's movements. That is until Yuma uses Grasshopper to get around him. After Yuma used Grasshopper, Tsutsumi was unable to turn around fast enough, despite previously not having an issue tracking Yuma's movements. The point I'm making here is that Yuma is already as fast if not faster than Katana, and he can use Grasshopper to further effectively increase his speed in combat. And Yuma uses Grasshopper all the time.

So basically, Yuma is arguably faster than anyone on your team, and Grasshopper makes him even faster. Hyuse also isn't too far behind Yuma in speed (or at least he's good enough in other areas to make up for it) going off of their practice match, and he has more clear cut feats that Jason or Roy anyways.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now we have to deal with skill, which is a little more tricky. Let's start with the couple problems I had:

Roy is actually almost as skilled in combat as Nightwing and a brilliant improviser and prepper.

Uhh based on what? Roy basically got clowned in that fight and only landed like 2 shots. Dick literally interrupted him thinking to himself about how he's actually pretty good. Roy himself even states "I'm good, but he's a damn machine" and after he "loses", he says that he lasted longer than he thought he would. That fight doesn't portray him as almost as good as Dick, and I'm pretty sure it's a high-end showing for Roy anyways.

I am also going to link this respect thread for Dick Grayson so that you really understand the skill level Roy is showing in his fights against Dick. In the notable fights section you can see Nightwing's performances against Batman, Midnighter (GG, one of the most wanked characters on comicvine), and Bronze Tiger as examples. Nightwing, Red Hood, and Cassandra Cain are the Batman proteges who have been shown capable of defeating Batman.

Linking a respect thread? Really? sigh

I'm aware of how skilled Dick is, but I really gotta call you out on using Midnighter as a skill feat for Dick. Midnighter's fight where he lost to DIck was blatant PIS and nothing else, pure and simple. We're talking about a guy who has skill feats equivalent to soloing most of the Bat Family, the guy who beat Prometheus (who had downloaded the skills of the top 10 fighters in DC into his head, Batman, Shiva, even Midnighter himself) when he didn't even have his main power. And that's before we even get into Midnighter's stat advantage. I'm getting sidetracked here but using Midnighter as a skill feat for Dick just shows how little you know.

Arsenal is an extremely skilled melee and ranged fighter. When I show his performance against Nightwing, it's scaled against one of top tier martial artist in the DC universe, not a group of individual fighters in the world who grind out a point based ranking system.

Not really sure what their point-based ranking system has to do with anything but ok. Onto Jason.

It is necessary to point out that Red Hood was holding back against Batman. The opposite is true for Batman, who was unable to hold back and beat Jason.

That quote of Jason saying he held back was from the N52 whereas the fight you showed is from Post-Crisis. Many Batman characters share their PC past and such, but I still think using that statement to refer to that specific instance of them fighting in a different continuity is a little suspect. Also yeah, him beating Bruce is most definitely a high end for Jason. Generally speaking, the consistent skill hierarchy of the Bruce and the Robins is Bruce > Dick > Jason > Tim > Damian from what I know. That might not be exactly right, but Jason definitely isn't consistently on Bruce's level. Jason had also specifically had a lot of time to prepare for that fight.

That's all I really have to say about those two, but to be perfectly honest, Jason and Roy's skill doesn't really matter at all here. The reason being that they are literally incapable of dealing any damage to Yuma and Hyuse in melee combat. In addition, both my member use bladed weapons that Roy and Jason are unable to block. So their only option really is to dodge as any attempt to counterattack will be unsuccessful. Eventually, they'll probably get tagged by one of the two and cut down. Neither Hyuse nor Yuma have an issue with killing I'd also like to add, so that won't stop them. The only real threat is Katana.

To be honest, all you showed for Katana was some vague scaling to Black Canary, who you've said is

considered to be in the top 10 martial artists in DC comics

Based on what, might I ask? I'm not necessarily saying that she isn't, but kinda just wanna know your source for this, or if it's just your own opinion. Regardless, simply saying "Katana > Black Canary" isn't much of an argument skill wise. You can say Black Canary is a top 10 DC Martial artist but what does that mean? For people unfamiliar with the feats of said martial artists, that's not very clear. It wouldn't be much of an issue if this were an in-universe battle, but when comparing them to characters from other verses you can't just say "Katana > Black Canary so she's more skilled than Yuma and Hyuse". I could just as easily say "Yuma is more skilled than Arafune, therefore, he's more skilled than Katana" and it would be just as valid. For that to work as an argument for Katana being more skilled, you have to show that BC is at least as skilled as I've shown my characters to be, which you have not done.

Assuming Katana is more skilled than Yuma and Hyuse, I still think they could take her down, as I will emphasise further in my strategy section.

Counters IV - General Strategy:

My team have full knowledge. Yuma and Hyuse are both quite intelligent in combat so they'll be aware of your dangerous things (Katana's sword and maybe Jason's taser). Roy can probably just be ignored by Yuma and Hyuse as he can only serve as a distraction. Your team does hold the numbers advantage, but my team can easily deal with that, mainly through the use of Hyuse's Escudo. Hyuse has frequently used Escudo to separate people from each other or to isolate people:

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Scan 1: Hyuse separates Kageura from his teammate Kitazoe with Escudo walls

Scan 2-3: Hyuse traps Kitazoe in a box with Escudo, allowing Yuma to go in and blitz and kill him.

Scan 4-5: Hyuse can and does spam the hell out of Escudo if you haven't noticed (all of these Escudo feats are from the same match and happen basically back to back).

They won't be able to do exactly this due to the battle taking place outdoors, but they could easily replicate what they did to Zoe on Roy or Jason. That's also another great speed feat for Yuma, as we see him massively outspeed bullets using Grasshopper. Given that's he's already faster than Roy or Jason without Grasshopper, they could easily replicate the same thing here to take one or both of them out. Another advantage is that Roy and Jason won't be able to destroy Escudo at all due to its insane durability.

So Yuma and Hyuse can use a combination of Escudo and Grasshopper to take out Jason and Roy without too much trouble and then deal with Katana together.

Even if Katana is more skilled than Yuma and Hyuse (which you have yet to convincingly prove), I still say that they can probably take her due to their versatility. Yuma alone has shown so many creative uses for Scorpion and Grasshopper in his fights, and given Katana has zero experience against their triggers and only basic knowledge, she could very easily get caught by something she didn't realise they could do. On top of this, she also has to deal with Hyuse's turning bullets using Viper whilst fighting Yuma. I honestly can't see her dealing with all of that at once.

As for stealth, Yuma and Hyuse both have a radar, so stealth shouldn't be much of an issue. Plus, it's not much but Yuma did get perfect scores on Border's stealth tests on his first attempt so it's not as if he is unskilled in stealth.

I also found something definitive regarding their communication from the Border Briefing File (basically the databook) that I thought I'd share.

Q.161: Is the trion body’s ‘internal comms’ a communication channel? Or a function of the trion body?

It’s part of the trion body’s standard functions. Communication is between people in normal earshot and can be limited to the target. You can also whisper jokes to someone while they’re drinking.

Ashihara Daisuke

So Yuma and Hyuse can definitively communicate mid-battle without fear of being overheard.

Oh yeah, and I also have 20 hobos on bath salts that can be used as a nice distraction for my team.

Regarding your strategy, it mostly relies on explosives. Unfortunately for you, you have yet to show feats for explosives that would allow them to do any real damage to trion bodies, let alone their shields. Plus, I already showed that shields can be done to cover the whole body as Izumi did. I suppose this would probably take out my hobos lol. Given that they can just walk through the initial bombing, they should catch up to your team fairly quickly due to radar + mobility from Grasshopper. Then they can separate Jason and Roy with Escudo to take them down quickly (and I guess use any surviving hobos as a distraction. Then they 2v1 Katana and use their versatility and unique strategies to overwhelm her.

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Second Post

Re Counters I

This will be short for me too.

To be perfectly honest, no one on your team tank can even dream to tank anything from either of my characters. They have both shown themselves able to cut through trion bodies like tissue paper, and trion bodies are notably more durable than any of your characters. I thought I should emphasise early on that for your team to win, they basically have to not get properly tagged.

I mostly agree with this. Arsenal and Katana could drop fairly easily if one of those attacks connects.

Being knocked back through a wall like that by Frankenstein for Red Hood mean he could likely take a hit or two. His body armor is bullet proof and knife proof, which isn't much in this case tbf, but it handles pressure and blunt force well, and is insulated against energy attacks. He is my most durable character. He does dodge regularly and has the speed and reflexes to do so here, plus he can block attacks with his All-Blades. Parrying it is a thing and I demonstrated in my opener he could parry Supergirl with them. He can either dodge or parry, and try tanking as the last resource like he normally does.

Katana parries attacks and energy with Soultaker all the time. The be perfectly honest, none of those attacks have any chance of hitting her. I gave plenty of examples of energy deflection in my opener and I can give plenty more.

The other major part of that "if" is that my entire team has mastered stealth in ways your team simply cannot track. Disappearing from characters like Martian Manhunter and Supergirl while right by them is insane. Even Roy is stealthy enough he can sneak up on Batman.

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And he can launch smoke bomb arrows for concealment even in areas where there might not be mist and fog in the battlefield. Your team needs targets to attack, and my team specializes in not presenting themselves as targets, attacking from shadows and ambush. Note that Roy can shoot Batman before he can draw from his utility belt. Also, note that Roy's taser arrows can also bypass the insulation in Batman's body armor. I'll be circling back around to that.

I would like to emphasize that for your team to win, they need to overcome the stealth factor my team has in an area chosen to capitalize on it.

Re Counters II

I'll follow your order, starting with Roy.

Obviously, Roy isn't going to be doing any damage to Yuma or Hyuse with his fists or normal arrows. However, I'm not even sure his explosive arrows are going to be effective either.

Fists seem rather unlikely, I agree. Arrows, otoh, will be effective. It's not the payload on each arrow that matters. It's the unlimited number of arrows, Roy's insane rate of fire, and ability to use those materials to create greater weapons in short periods of time as demonstrated in his intellect section. The size of the battlefield and nature of stealth affords him the time to jury-rig big enough explosions or whatnot to get the job done.

I'd like to remind you of the author's statement that Trion Bodies would be fine against even missiles, and whilst you can say that this is just a statement, it does make a lot of sense in the context of the verse.

I can say it's just a statement because feats are still much more important than statements. I would add that the damaging quality of the missiles would need to be demonstrated and those feats would not be putting the characters above street level durabilities, which anyone on my team can deal with.

conventional Japanese military was completely helpless to do anything against their technology

I would be careful not to wank them beyond the scope of a street level tournament. Conventional military would normally destroy the 5 pointers on the point buys.

Roy's arrows seem to be around vehicle busting, which isn't enough to do any damage to trion bodies. Even if they were, both of my characters are casual bullet timers, so simply cutting them down or dodging or blocking them wouldn't be very hard. Given that my team has full knowledge, they'll know whether they can tank Roy's arrows or not (though WT characters almost never try to tank attacks anyway).

Again, it's not a single payload that matters. It's the number of payloads and how he makes use of them. As for casual bullet-timers, Nightwing dodges bullets all the time. He had zero chance against Roy. The Flash could easily dodge, but Roy's skill and ability to make strategic / tactical use of his abilities took Wally West out. On top of that, an arrow with an area effect doesn't need to get anywhere near the target to be effective whether that's an explosive, gas grenade, or flare.

Given that my team also has knowledge but also proven intellects and super-genius weapon engineering, they'll be capable of utilizing or rigging the right arrows to get the job done.

Next up is Jason. Similarly, he clearly isn't doing any damage to my team with his fists or guns, which just leaves his other gear, notably the chest taser.

Jason goes for weak points on high durability targets.

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Jason yanked Earth 3 Superwoman's eyes from her sockets to prevent her from using heat vision. It's foolish to discount him even with just his minor weapons.

The only feat you showed that could be powerful enough to put down my team is the charge dropping Artemis, but that was only briefly and you also showed no durability feats for Artemis to give an idea of how impressive it is.

Artemis (WollfMyth209's respect thread) is the elite warrior of a divergent society of Amazons and their version of Wonder Woman. Any feat a typical Amazon has she would match or beat it, and she's demonstrated the ability to face Wonder Woman and Bizarro in combat. Generally considered a 15 tonner casual bullet timer with a big magic axe named Mistress.

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Those are from the same arc as your rebuttal pic on the All-Swords as only good against magic (more on that shortly). We can see what that opponent could do to Bizarro and the blast she shot and Artemis, who parries the brunt of it with Mistress. She's pretty impressive.

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Those are examples of a typical Amazon. They are both Exorista from Demon Knights. The first shows easily tanking the jolt from Madam Xanadu's magical lightning blast that hit the monster holder her and blowing it's head open. We know the shock hit Exorista because Xanadu warned her to expect it. The other character held by the monster were Etrigan (so we know it was pretty tough), Vandal Savage, and Shining Knight (during a transition to vampire phase; that version of Shining Knight was from the first age of Camelot and also enhanced human physicals). The second demonstrates that a typical Amazon can drop a charging triceratops.

Dropping Batman is actually the better feat in the list. His armor insulation saved him from Lex Luthor's battle armor electrical charge and Ocean Master's lightning that should have killed him. It did drop Superman and Wonder Woman later in the same battle. Jason's taser or Roy's taser dropping Batman through that armor is enough to drop your team members.

We also have a clear measure of how powerful Roy's tasers are.

No Caption Provided

Edison's Topsy experiment was 6600 volts to kill an elephant. That gives us a ballpark to gauge Artemis, Batman's armor insulation, and Jason's tasers.

That and its power seems not too impressive outside of dropping Artemis. That said, Yuma and Hyuse are smart guys, they can simply avoid touching Jason's chest, so they'll only get hit by it if Jason actively uses it. Even then, they'll be cautious of it if it's dangerous to them.

With an even better feat, Jason killed Captain Marvel (Shazam) villain Captain Nazi with an earlier version of his taser by targeting vulnerable areas. Captain Nazi is more durable than Batman's armor, Artemis, or an elephant.

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They don't need to touch Jason's chest. He dropped an arena full of enemies at range in a single shot shown in my opening.

That said, I don't know how effective the taser would be on Yuma and Hyuse given that their bodies are made entirely out of trion. I'm not suggesting it would be completely ineffective, but I don't think it would be as effective as it would against flesh and blood people (does trion conduct electricity? idk).

Electricity doesn't need to be conducted to do damage. Adding energy will create non-spontaneous reactions and break down compounds. It's how electrolysis works, for example, when more electricity is added than is being conducted (and how to make a battery explode). Semi-conductors would be resistant to a point and then start conducting depending on voltages or amperage. Insulators are what Batman was already using in his body armor. Regardless of how conductive trion is, something happens. You would need feats to back up durability here.

The other thing Jason has up his sleeve that is dangerous is the all-blades. However, it has been directly stated on-panel that they only work on magic beings:

I'm aware that there has been some inconsistency surrounding this part of them however, this statement should trump other showings for a few reasons. For one, this comic was written by the person who created the all-blades in the first place (whereas the stories where they did work against non-magical beings were not IIRC). The second is that this statement is more recent than the showings of them working against non-magical beings, and as such could be considered a retcon. Regardless, the all-blades only work against magic, so they won't be of any use to Jason here.

You are right, they are inconsistent. They have been stated to work on magic at times, pure evil at others, and shown to work on much more like Mongul's son, robots, or Supergirl using a sword. The bottom line here is that feats trump statements and we're using feats from Post-Crisis, New 52, and Rebirth. Those are valid New 52 feats and applicable regardless of that Rebirth statement.

The most impressive things you showed for her sword cutting wise would be cutting Major Force's hand off (though again I'm not exactly sure how durable he is) and the statement she made about cutting Zod. I definitely want to question if these showings are consistent for Soultaker or if they're just one-off showings. Assuming they are consistent, then Katana shouldn't have any trouble doing damage to my team.

She didn't just state she could cut Zod. She definitely has cut him. She's also cut Shaggyman and stated she could cut Martian Manhunter. Those aren't one-offs. Soultaker is brutal. Major Force's outer armor is made of the same material as Post-Crisis Captain Atom's. Soultaker won't have any issues cutting down either of your team members.

That said, again, my team do have full knowledge so they will simply avoid Katana's sword if they can't tank it. This is something that World Trigger characters are very used to despite their impressive durability because trion bodies are incapable of tanking anything from Trion based weaponry. There is then the issue of Katana's skill but we'll get onto that.

Full knowledge doesn't add the ability to avoid something just because they know it can hurt them nor does it let them see her coming given her level of stealth.

Re Counters III

It's all about skill and speed.

Using this as a feat for bullet timing is pretty weak. There is no way of knowing that Roy only started moving after the bullets were fired, so it could well have been aim-dodging. If he did only start moving after the bullets were fired (which nothing suggests) then it's a terribly sensory feat for Roy, because you're suggesting that he didn't realise there were like 5 dudes with guns behind him until they opened fire.

You think he was aim dodging someone shooting at him from behind who he couldn't see?

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He was focused on the scene down on the street and talking to himself. Assault teams try to be stealthy so it's not something for a character without enhanced senses to notice them while being preoccupied looking in the opposite direction. There's no indication there's aim dodging going on.

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There is an indication he's bullet timing because we can see the bullets in the air going by and not just a trajectory path.

What does this even mean? The bullet from the snipers are slower by the time it reaches the target? Based on what? Where exactly does it say that the bullet slowed down?

The laws of physics say that. Bullets start decelerating immediately after the initial explosion driving them forward ceases to drive them forward. The energy is lost to outside forces like friction and gravity. That's why they do not continue forever. Energy cannot be created or destroyed but it does get converted or diffused. Why do you think sound only carries so far or you can only see so far in the dark with headlights or a fire is hotter up close? It's a fact that bullets are travelling slower later in the shot than they are leaving the barrel.

The person who reacted to the first sniper bullet is someone that Hyuse stomped and you also conveniently didn't address the feat I showed of Yuma reacting to a sniper shot from much closer and even moving his whole body out of the way of it.

I didn't need to in order to make my point about that example and again when Roy reacted to more shots fired closer and also unseen. The sniper part isn't what matters. It's the distance the bullets travel that dictate the reaction speeds involved.

Where Hyuse reacts to Karasuma's bullets that change direction mid-flight and blocks several of them at once. Even Hyuse should be faster than Roy, let alone Yuma.

Sure, he sees the bullets, but how fast are they really going by that point, especially if they turn? Like I said, the speed of the bullets at that time is based on how far they've travelled and the initial charge that fired them. The farther they've gone the slower they're moving. That's why the high caliber close range bullets fired from behind Roy that we could see an example in his view in motion is a solid feat. And like I said, he's my slow guy.

Again, this feat is unclear. Your so-called "bullet-timing" happened offscreen, so we don't know what exactly happened and if Jason actually reacted to the bullets.

Point blank at his head while he's sitting and chained to a chair. We know he obviously didn't get shot. How is that not impressive given his list of speed feats and training. Jason Todd was bullet timing and breaking bones as Robin, long before he even got to the League of Assassins or the All Caste.

I'm going to add this...

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Batman and all the Robins have millisecond reaction speeds after training with Batman at a minimum. That's fits in with bullet-timing feats because bullet speeds can be measured in feet per millisecond. That included Batman, Nightwing, and Red Hood. Even the slowest Robins. I demonstrated Roy Harper with a rate of fire far beyond Nightwing and I demonstrated Red Hood much faster than Damian Wayne. I can show he's faster than Tim Drake too. This fits in with his All-Caste training that increased his speed beyond the millisecond Robin speeds as also demonstrated. Red Hood can also be compared to a casual bullet timer like Artemis throughout most of the RHatO's Rebirth run.

Jason Todd was bullet-timing and dancing around Captain Boomerang when he was still Robin, before the advanced training. We've seen him deflecting bullets in one direction while dodging automatic fire from others including from behind.

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His speed is beyond debating whether he's a bullet-timer or not at this point, and he's been shown faster in H2H combat than other bullet-timers when he's not holding back.

So blitzing fodder? Cool.

Fodder can't pull a trigger? Calling them fodder doesn't dismiss them.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that Jason blitzed her from. Nothing in that scan suggesting that she failed to react to him, it simply looks like he outskilled her. Jason's speed magically increasing when he "gives into his training" doesn't really make much sense. I think the more reasonable explanation would just be that he compensated for the speed difference with his skill (especially given how she was clearly portrayed as faster than him in the first page you showed). So Jason's best feats are blitzing fodder and hanging with a bullet timer by "giving into his training". Aight.

It makes sense because he's often pointed out as holding back even against characters like Batman and Artemis. The speed makes sense because his All-Caste training included changing his perceptions of time.

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Side note: Why did you show so much for this part lol

Lol, with Katana it's such a common part of her character it's hard not to. There's just so much focus on it the sheer amount of it makes it irrefutable. I've had too many ppl try to dispute her in the past. Between speed and Soultaker she can wreck a lot of street tier and fight above her tier.

The point is that it's really unclear what precisely happened there, and I don't think you can really say that she clearly outran an explosion.

You can see her leaving the elevator shaft and racing out of the building at the last minute in those inside panels to demonstrate the series of events. The context you are looking for was she planned for the explosion earlier and had warned the rest of her team to be ready.

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The first image is the warning to get to an exit, the second was the get out warning just before she took the guy into the elevator shaft to detonate him. Then she was fleeing that explosion that blew the whole building as expected. Her entire plan shows how fast she is compared to Batgirl and Black Canary. They needed to be near an exit and get a heads up but she could out run it and escaped at the same time they did. It's in Birds of Prey 8 from the first new 52 run if you want to check it out. It's legit.

This one is similar, but it's actually clearly not explosion timing. When Katana lit the explosives, they didn't explode immediately. The was clearly a makeshift fuse on them, meaning that for her to outrun the explosion she would have to literally stand there and wait for it to explode and then run.

I will draw your attention back to this panel.

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She's igniting it with Soultaker with an immediately following explosion. An explosion here companion weren't clear of yet even though they were ahead of here. It's another example of a planned explosion she beat.

The gun misfire was also a third tiny explosion she beat.

For one, almost all of your bullet timing feats for Katana are against handguns or automatic weapons. However, I've show Yuma reacting to and even moving his body out of the way of high tech sniper rifles.

Kobra uses high tech weapons and armor, which covers many of them, Deadshot uses high velocity armor piercers, and I gave several examples of defecting energy including Zod's heat vision. Your team is arguably faster than Arsenal but Katana is easily faster.

Uhh based on what? Roy basically got clowned in that fight and only landed like 2 shots. Dick literally interrupted him thinking to himself about how he's actually pretty good. Roy himself even states "I'm good, but he's a damn machine" and after he "loses", he says that he lasted longer than he thought he would. That fight doesn't portray him as almost as good as Dick, and I'm pretty sure it's a high-end showing for Roy anyways.

It's not a high showing for Roy. It's actually a lower showing than Roy's fights with Dick during their run together in Outsiders. Roy hit Dick 3 times and threw him once in that fight. I usually don't post entire fights to avoid too many scans. Here is an example from Outsiders before they were broken up.

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Keep in mind that Dick's speed was no match for Roy's speed with the bow without Wally West there to save him as well.

Linking a respect thread? Really? sigh

Yes because it's a time and space saver. Your response, however, isn't a rebuttal.

I'm getting sidetracked here but using Midnighter as a skill feat for Dick just shows how little you know.

Ad Hominem isn't a rebuttal. It's a high feat for Dick but Midnighter tends to get over-rated.

Not really sure what their point-based ranking system has to do with anything but ok.

It's your point based ranking system you used in your opener. Are you telling me you went to all the trouble to point out all those point rankings and now they aren't relevant? Grinding points is like playing a video game. The are not a true indicator of ability. That's why we're discussing feats.

That quote of Jason saying he held back was from the N52 whereas the fight you showed is from Post-Crisis. Many Batman characters share their PC past and such, but I still think using that statement to refer to that specific instance of them fighting in a different continuity is a little suspect.

The rules say what about the characters?

DC is composite Post-Crisis/New52/Rebirth

Moving on....

Generally speaking, the consistent skill hierarchy of the Bruce and the Robins is Bruce > Dick > Jason > Tim > Damian from what I know. That might not be exactly right, but Jason definitely isn't consistently on Bruce's level. Jason had also specifically had a lot of time to prepare for that fight.

That's your argument? Your opinion on hierarchy doesn't refute feats or statements. That's the equivalent of walking into court with the "nuh uh" argument after evidence has been presented. You need to prove your point when both Batman and Red Hood have displayed advantage over each other at numerous times in their shared history. The statements that Batman couldn't hold back while the statements show Red Hood always held back.

Training with the All-Caste also backs up Jason as superior because that's training Batman never had, and I'll remind you that most of the new 52 continuity was the post crisis continuity with some of the time missing as per rebirth so using continuities as an argument is the questionable move here. It's also not in line with the composite rules.

Based on what, might I ask? I'm not necessarily saying that she isn't, but kinda just wanna know your source for this, or if it's just your own opinion. Regardless, simply saying "Katana > Black Canary" isn't much of an argument skill wise. You can say Black Canary is a top 10 DC Martial artist but what does that mean?

You seem to have glossed right over my demonstration of Katana's skill exceeding Batman by using Batman villains as a benchmark, but going with Canary it's based on the time she and Shiva were training together under the same master. What I demonstrated was Katana is more skilled than Canary or Batman, however.

For that to work as an argument for Katana being more skilled, you have to show that BC is at least as skilled as I've shown my characters to be, which you have not done.

You showed your characters to be skilled within an organization within their society based on a point system that isn't truly conclusive. I gave definitive feats like pressure points and characters who match or train with those truly considered to be the best in the world by statements. My team is more skilled.

Re Counter IV

I am going to keep this short too.

Trees etc interfere with radar, Roy has an EMP pulse arrow if he needs it to deal with such, and Red Hood uses cloaking tech as part of his high tech repertoire.

No Caption Provided

This was an upgrade from his holographic disguise tech used in new 52 that he was using for most of his Rebirth run. I showed him hiding from Supergirl's senses and Katana from Martian Manhunter's senses. Stealth tech counters radar already, as does solid objects. Did you post feats for the radar? I don't think I saw them. Either way, it's not save your team from stealth.

As for defense, don't forget Soultaker blocks or deflects energy, and Katana demonstrated many times she can deflect it at her own opponents.

Conclusion

  • anyone on my team can damage those trion bodies
  • Katana and Red Hood can handle direct confrontation
  • stealth provides all the protection my team needs to win this
  • Soultaker wrecks here, offensively and defensively, providing protection and bypassing durability that guarantees a win for my team.

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#19 Posted by Ashrym (3037 posts) - - Show Bio

@chronicplane: @maestromage:

Post is up. Let me know if we're voting now or doing a 3rd round. I think we have enough to go on.

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#21 Posted by IndomitableRegal (16530 posts) - - Show Bio

Not voting. Just noting someone using feats from the current run of RHATO. I feel like everyone ignores those for some reason lol. Actually, I gotta catch up with that. I'm like 6 issues behind...

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#22 Posted by Jacthripper (14994 posts) - - Show Bio

@chronicplane: Going through the debate, I’ll have to vote for @ashrym. Both the substance of the debate and his use of feats impressed me. Additionally, he didn’t rely on scaling to heavily. @maestromage did a good job, but honestly, I had trouble following his line of reasoning sometimes, as it got tangled up in his scaling.

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#23 Edited by Chronicplane (9365 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Posted by Ashrym (3037 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper: ty4 the vote

@geekryan: were you voting on this one?

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#25 Posted by AValiantImge (397 posts) - - Show Bio

After going through it seems at it was a stats vs skill/gear type of fight. Yuma and Hyuse seems to be monsters for street levelers . Now judging by the conclusions presented Ashrym's team's stealth is what gives them my vote. He brought up alot of good feats such as sneaking away from Martian MAnhunter/Supergirl and Red Hood's invisibility plus the environment convince me that it would make it impossible for Yuma/Hyuse to find them. The damage part was the most pressing issue. RD's taser and all blades seems to be effective how the all blades less than the taser since it leaves him open to being bisected. I wasn't convinced at that Katanna or Red Hood could handle a direct confrontation for even a second with stealth being they're only method of not dying..Overall Ashyrm team's gets my vote @ashrym@chronicplane

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#26 Posted by geekryan (5031 posts) - - Show Bio

@ashrym: Sure! I’ll do it tonight

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#27 Posted by Ashrym (3037 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Posted by geekryan (5031 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll have to give my vote to @maestromage.

Although he did use a lot of scaling, and his characters seem a bit underpriced, his arguments and counters were much more thorough and impressive to me. I knew nothing of his characters while knowing a good amount about Ashrym's characters, and he easily convinced me that Kuga Yuma and Hyuse had the stats advantage needed to pull a win. I was convinced that Maestro's team could practically one-shot all of Ashrym's team, while being able to tank heavy amounts of damage.

I think Ashrym did well, and maybe it's because I have debated against him and these exact characters before, but he makes a lot of assumptions and statements without backing them up, and when he does back them up, they sometimes involve high/low balling.

Regardless, this was a fun debate to read through! Good job to the both of you.

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#29 Posted by Chronicplane (9365 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by Ashrym (3037 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by Ashrym (3037 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by HigorM (8928 posts) - - Show Bio

@chronicplane: voting for Ashrym here. This was a very close battle, but what it makes the difference here was the use of key aspects of the characters, for example, Ashrym was more convincing on his stealth argument than maestromage presenting counters to that, I felt that this part wasn't properly addressed and would be a key factor in this fight. I agree the initial strategy would work but the backup plan would and having those is exactly what you expect from this type of characters, talking about strategy I noted that maestro didn't brought to protect his team or anticipate the enemy strategy and that, IMHO cost him this fight.

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#34 Edited by Chronicplane (9365 posts) - - Show Bio
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#35 Posted by Ashrym (3037 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by Chimeroid (9268 posts) - - Show Bio

@ashrym said:

@chimeroid: you have time for a vote by tomorrow?

I quit comicvine like 5 months ago (not on purpose) i just kinda open it every few days. But yeah, when i get a tag from you i will definitely take a look :)