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#1 Edited by Chronicplane (9216 posts) - - Show Bio

Round I | Match I:

dedmanwalkin

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Characters:

  • Yokai (Big Hero 6 Composite)(3)
  • Fox Silver Samurai (2)
  • CW Captain Cold (1)

Perks:

  • Trade Two Character Points, Get Three Perk Points Free(-2)
  • Morals Off (6)
  • Adamantium-Coated Weapons - Apply to Yokai (4)
  • 20 minutes prep (3)
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HigorM

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Characters:

  • Wolverine (4)
  • Winter Soldier (2)
  • Hawkeye (2)

Perks:

  • Prep Negation (5)
  • Full Knowledge (5)

Tournament Stipulations:

  1. 16 Participants, be willing to extend if enough interested
  2. 8 Character Points to spend
  3. 10 Perk points to spend
  4. 14 Day Deadline to post, Though I'm willing to extend if you give a good enough reason(Will bump you every 3 days)
  5. No Unfair Hax(You should know what this means, if you are using hax abilities obviously over limits, you will be kicked)
  6. No Space Manipulation
  7. No Reality Warping
  8. No Matter Manipulation
  9. No Time Manipulation, Though speeding up ones own time is allowed.
  10. Flight is allowed but is restricted to 30 ft(equivalent of a three story building) and no more
  11. Summons/Duplicates/Constructs limited to Navy Seal Team quality. You cannot summon anything or duplicate enough to overwhelm a 12 man Navy Seal Team with ease
  12. TP is limited to Mind Reading
  13. TK is allowed but cannot be used directly on opponents
  14. No BFR
  15. Standard Gear, which means any gear consistently used for a long period of time(like an entire run for example) and still qualifies as street tier unless otherwise specified
  16. Teamwork is a complete factor. The only rule with teamwork is that characters will not directly fight each other.
  17. Tie-In comic feats for Live Action characters allowed
  18. Anime characters are Anime/Manga composite(FMA characters are Brotherhood)
  19. DC is composite Post-Crisis/New52/Rebirth
  20. Marvel is Earth 616 unless stated otherwise
  21. For each round there will either be an extra obstacle to deal with or there will be a certain goal to reach
  22. If you have a problem with a character's pricing, let me know, I'm open to change
  23. Only join if you have intentions of finishing, otherwise don't bother
  24. You must have completed a CaV, a Tourney match or have 500 posts or more
  25. Link to the tournament

Voting Rules:

  1. Only the two participants are allowed to debate
  2. If you want to be tagged to vote at the end, say "T4V" or "TAEP" if you want to be tagged for every post
  3. Vote for whoever was the best debater, or who convinced you more, not for which team you think would win
  4. Make sure to provide reasoning for your vote
  5. Votes based on obvious character bias will not be counted
  6. Be respectful, honorable, and civil towards eachother

Fight Takes Place:

Out of view from the other team. Opposite sides of the destroyed war-zone with no one there except the teams. Dedmanwalkin is the red circle and HigorM is the blue circle.

No Caption Provided

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#2 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2671 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster So I guess we'll flip-flop between each Tourney we're facing each other in lol. If you can go first here I can continue with our other match.

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#3 Posted by TourneyMaster (1730 posts) - - Show Bio

@gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps: Man Ruby a 5? Damn you scored big. She beats Spider Man depending how much you rate her high end feats vs consistent speed feats. Before I start, is this worth debating? Ruby high end speed is more Quicksilver level. Able to break MHS speeds. So I see no point in arguing it.

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#4 Edited by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2671 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster: Whoa ho. Ruby's fast, but not that fast imo. I have no intention of debating Ruby anyone near that level, low-hypersonic (like mach 5-6ish) at most.

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#5 Edited by TourneyMaster (1730 posts) - - Show Bio

@gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps said:

@tourneymaster: Whoa ho. Ruby's fast, but not that fast imo. I have no intention of debating Ruby anyone near that level, low-hypersonic (like mach 5-6ish) at most.

Still way to fast. Spider Man is Mach 2 for comparison. Ultimate Cap is less than Mach speed but has roughly Mach reactions. Wesker is less than Mach and has same Mach reactions. Either way you blitz and win. Im gonna have to bow out. I would have requested Jedi if I knew I was going up against someone like Ruby first round lol. Oh well.

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#6 Posted by FaradaySloth (10090 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

Online
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#7 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2671 posts) - - Show Bio

@tourneymaster: Really. Spidey's like Mach 4 at least right? coulda sworn he was. Also worth saying that I only view Ruby as that high when using her semblance, and even then it's mostly with her high-end feats.

But either way, if you wanna dip that's fine, I can get a reserve.

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#8 Edited by TourneyMaster (1730 posts) - - Show Bio

@gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps said:

@tourneymaster: Really. Spidey's like Mach 4 at least right? coulda sworn he was. Also worth saying that I only view Ruby as that high when using her semblance, and even then it's mostly with her high-end feats.

But either way, if you wanna dip that's fine, I can get a reserve.

He has one Mach four feat, but its debunk by none other than Floopay actually. See the bullet Kraven used was Mach Four roughly. Barely. However, the feat everyone used never took into account time and distance. Spider Man needed only Mach one to actually react. More so with Spider Sense a factor.

Im going have too. I just cannot bullshit my way into a argument why my team would have a chance lol. I like bullshitting mind ya lol. Just clear winner here. Im not one to quit on tourneys, I hate it myself asd a Tourney maker, but this was too unfair for my slow ass team who all cost four points to Ruby's five.

Maybe next time I have to request characters. So I guess next time.

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#10 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2671 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by cdiddyman911 (5537 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#13 Posted by Chronicplane (9216 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by Defiant_Will (1185 posts) - - Show Bio

woah. Yokai with adamantium nanobots? TAEP. Gotta see how this plays out

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#15 Posted by HigorM (8923 posts) - - Show Bio

@chronicplane: Jesus Christ DedmanWalkin in the first round?! What did i do to you? :P

Gonna have to work my magic here..

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#16 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4192 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: Sorry to kill you HigorM, but good luck nonetheless. As you have negated my prep and have a general idea of my strategy, I'll let you go first.

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#17 Edited by HigorM (8923 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4192 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by Chronicplane (9216 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by HigorM (8923 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by HigorM (8923 posts) - - Show Bio

@DedmanWalkin:

Before even touching into the battle itself, there’s a couple things I must address first. I just want to clear things up as honest as possible so we can avoid unnecessary discussions. Considering the nature of my perks I don’t have other alternative but dispute your overall strategy:

"Yeah, I was going to have Yokai kill Silver Samurai and Captain Cold and put himself in the Silver Samurai Armor and equip him with the Cold Gun. As the Unlimited Adamantium Microbots would allow me to reshape the battlefield, there would be no way to stop me from murdering everyone."

1. Tourney Ruling:

No Unfair Hax (You should know what this means, if you are using hax abilities obviously over limits, you will be kicked

This essentially invalidates your strategy before you even apply it in this scenario. Of course this requires a ruling from either @chronicplane / @gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps to say it's valid or not.

2. Viability:

Since my team possess prep negation, you no longer have the 20 minutes, which I imagine you’d use to put your strategy together, which means that even if it’s approved by the creators of this tournament you’d have to initiate it after the fight starts. I honestly believe you don’t have enough time to accomplish that before being overwhelmed by my team. Specially if you consider that killing the Silver Samurai won’t be that easy since the entire armor is made of adamantium, how can your character surpass it since all he possess at his disposal is adamantium gear?

3. Morals:

Honestly I don’t understand why you choose to have the morals off perk considering that your team is composed of villains or at least characters whithout moral restraints from what we’ve seen on their respective universes. Not to mention that even with this perk I don’t find credible to believe one of them would randomly start killing the others just for the sake of being stronger or whatever. That’s more of a bloodlusted kind of behavior than anything, at least from my perspective.

That being said, I’d say that your strategy won’t work as expected, for all those reasons stated.

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#22 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4192 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm:

So, this means that you are conceding that my strategy will defeat your team? The issue you have is whether I can pull it off. I realize that my strategy is outside the box but it is really the only outcome of a team constructed like mine.

Strategy Issues

1. Rules

The only ability that Yokai has is the one I am using in the way that he used it. I voiced my strategy well in advance of this match and my team was approved in spite of it. This is tacit approval if not outright approval of my strategy. Had I just sprung this on you, you would have good reason to seek a ruling but everyone knew my strategy going in. My team should not have been approved if my strategy is illegal.

2. Killing My Team

I originally did not have prep, I had unlimited ammo. I took the prep because I couldn't take unlimited ammo. It was the only good use of 3 points not because I needed it.

Yokai kills Captain Cold and uses Captain Cold's Cold Gun to freeze Silver Samurai. The Cold Gun has frozen laser beams and can hurt the Flash. Silver Samurai is not particularly fast so he won't be able to dodge, his Blades will be taken away by Microbots. One blade will be activated and a small hole will be bored in the side to allow Microbots to roll in and open it up. Yokai is a genius at robotics, figuring out where to bore without dealing too much damage should be easy. The small bored hole will be filled with Microbots. Once inside, he is functionally immune to your team. Microbots have a significant speed advantage over Cold and the Samurai. He can kill them both in less than thirty seconds. Getting inside will probably take an additional couple minutes. I am looking at 5 minutes tops.

While this is happening, Yokai will have formed a solid barrier of adamantium microbots until he has taken the Silver Samurai armor. No one on your team can get through the barrier so Yokai has all the time he needs. Once inside the armor, he can roll over your team with no problem. Wolverine can be drowned in microbots or frozen solid by Cold Gun, and the others can be killed instantly.

3. Morality

Yokai, as evil as he was, never intended to kill anyone even Krei. He ensured that everyone got out during the fire but did not anticipate Tadashi running back in like some big dumb hero. He only wanted Krei to watch as his entire world crumbled around him. At any point in the final battle, Yokai could have murdered Big Hero 6 but he couldn't bring himself to do it. Instead he traps them in places that will keep them isolated. Everything he does in the movie is to limit death. I need "no morals" to bring out the killer in Yokai.

After his daughter died, he felt like everyone lied to him so he didn't trust anyone to help him. He didn't trust even his closest student to help him pull off his revenge plan so instead he fakes his death. Krei has alot of enemies, this is said in the movie, Yokai could have gone to any of them and recruited them but he didn't. Only he could be trusted which is again why he chose to use a technology that allows him to do everything by himself. Like Hiro said, "what used to take a team of people now only takes one." That is what Yokai heard and that is all he needed to know. Yokai is a man who works alone.

Stealing other people's stuff to use was his first idea when he saw Hiro's microbots even going so far as to fake his own death to do it. He then steals the portal from the abandoned lab that he had no hand in developing. No technology that he used in his battles was made by him, nothing. He stole it all.

Do you think it is likely that a man who works alone, trusts no one, and steals technology is going to work with others, trust them, and not steal their technology? My strategy is completely 100% in character for a morality-deprived Yokai. Anyone taking Yokai without also taking a Teamwork perk would have a broken team unless they planned on Yokai killing his team and stealing their stuff.

Conclusion

You've seen enough of my strategies to know that I would have taken into account all of these issues and been prepared for them. This was not the tactic I was expecting from you but I do realize that it is the most reasonable path forward. Good luck on the next post!

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#23 Posted by HigorM (8923 posts) - - Show Bio

@DedmanWalkin:

"Pre-Battle Issues"

Not at all, I had to start this way because of two reasons:

a) I knew your strategy beforehand;

b) The nature of my perks lead me to this kind of approach;

Like I said, I decided to start the discussion as honestly as possible to avoid having unfavorable discussions on technicalities since I’m always pro debate. I had no intentions to avoid the arguments, my sole intention was to clarify the context and characteristics of this particular fight before entering into the debate itself. Please don’t think that’s my only strategy or that I’m trying to win via ruling, I have every interest in having the best debate possible here.

It’s not my fault if you are a mad genius regarding this kind of tournaments, you have a very well crafted and creative strategy and honestly I couldn’t expect less from you. And in that sense I have to take my hat off and thank you for forcing me to think outside the box.

- Rules

I only bring this topic because sometimes they (tourney creators) don’t have time to enforce every rule or doesn’t realize the kind of strategy you may or may not bring to the table, I know that you’ve voiced it in the main thread but I was not sure if they saw it.

- Killing your team

Yes it sounds perfect on paper but sometimes it doesn’t work as we expect. For instance, you have constructed a narrative where everything works perfectly, without any kind of side effects or unforeseen events, I mean, they will all stand while Yokai kills them, if Captain Cold is skilled enough to tag the Flash couldn’t he do the same to Yokai? It just seems a little farfetched to me. You might accomplish all that, but I don't think it would be that easy, it should take more than 5 minutes. We got to remember that you are basing the whole strategy in assumptions. We don't know how the suit would behave after being completely frozen, and not only that, defrost after being pierced by a incandescent adamantium blade, would it work properly after that? I don't know, we can assert that since it never happened before, we can only make conjectures.

- Morals

I don't see it that way, despite not having killed them, on several occasions he tried and at the bare minimum took the risk of his actions. Take a look at the car chase scene for example, the guy throws a freakin car agaisnt them, he already knew who they were and did it anyway, none of them had super gear at the time, only baymax, who saved them multiple times.

At the end of the scene we see the car sinking in water, Yokai see's it and didn't care about them. In the last fight we say him trying to crash one of the heroes, pierce the other, etc. He didn't even care about Tadashi since he said "That was his mistake!"in his dialogue with Hiro. For all I've seen in the movie I'd say he's already a morals off individual, since he's in character and aware of his actions, but don't care or show remorse regarding the consequences.

Actual Battle

Let's consider that there's nothing wrong with your strategy and you suceed in put it into practice, it does not grant you an auto win. My team is more than capable of dealing with that monstrosity. Let's start with their intellectual capacity, since they are all considered to be Expert Tactician's.

  • Hawkeye - As shown in his leadership of the West Coast Avengers and the Thunderbolts, Barton is a highly competent strategist, tactician, and field commander.
  • Wolverine - Though seemingly brutish, Wolverine is highly intelligent. When Forge monitored Wolverine's vitals during a Danger Room training session, he reported Logan's physical and mental state as "equivalent to an Olympic-level gymnast performing a Gold-medal-winning routine whilst simultaneously beating four chess computers in his head" (Wolverine Vol 2 #51), which gives something of an idea of the level of sophistication and tactical processing Logan was capable of utilizing while in combat. He remembered Ogun teaching him Sun Tzu's The Art of War.
  • Winter Soldier - Barnes is a very skilled strategist and has led teams such as the Thunderbolts with excellent planning to ensure victory, as seen in Avengers Standoff: Assault On Pleasant Hill Omega #1. Not to mention that over the years of studying Captain America, Barnes is excellent skilled in all armed force disciplines including intellect gathering, escape arts, assassination, demolition, survival tactics, hunting, swimming, mountaineering, interrogation, map making and reading, disguising, communication systems, explosions, computers, reading and making wood craft signs, and other secret code languages.

That being said I believe my team possess what it takes to bring you down. Let's start remembering one of my perks - Full Knowledge - which means that my team is aware of your team, who they are and what they can do, which also leads me to believe that it would be easy for them to presume the kind of strategy you are trying to pull here. Even if they don't for some reason beyond me, they would definately know who and what to strike first.

The microbots are great, specially now they are made of adamantium, but they STILL need to be controlled by a single neurotransmitter that can be disrupted. My team possess two ways of doing it, both from close and long distance. The Winter Soldier's Bionic Arm is equipped with Electromagnetic Pulse - the ability to discharge an EMP, rendering electronic devices useless, as seeing when he tried to use against Iron Man's suit. In the other end we have Hawkeye and his tricky arrows, one of them are composed of Electronic Scrambler Arrows, more specifically the EMP arrow from Hawkeye & Mockingbird Issue #4:

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Note how not only the cybernetic eye was shut down but several other robots were compromised at the same time, showing a great reach since the arrow affected multiple targets at once. One arrow is all I need to put the big guy down, without the transmitter you can't control any of the microbots, turning them useless. There goes your whole fancy strategy :P

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#24 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4192 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: Sorry, my kid has been sick, really making getting a post up hard. Will try tomorrow.

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#25 Posted by HigorM (8923 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4192 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm:

Pre-Battle

Pushing people out of the box is my specialty. My last matchup saw my opponent constantly attempting to get me DQed rather than debate the characters.

Cold isn't going to know what is happening before an adamantium microbot fist plunges through his chest. Cold is a talker, he'll start by trying to assert his dominance while Yokai positions some microbots behind him. Ichiro is an idiot and will do nothing to stop this. Even if the Silver Samurai Suit's Systems don't work, it doesn't matter, Yokai has microbots that can provide movement even if the suit itself is dead. All that matters is that you have nothing that can get through the suit as it is only meant to be armor. Ichiro is an old man, a burst of Cold from the Cold Gun will kill him regardless of his suit. Neither of them have the ability to stop him from killing them.

Yokai was around for the development of Baymax, he knows what it is capable of doing. When he saw the car sinking, he knew that Baymax was not in there because his buoyancy would keep it afloat. Baymax's programming would not allow him to leave until he confirmed the health of his patient. This was a plot point. If the car was sinking, they are alive and he can go back to work. He knows the only hero in their group died trying to fight a fire. Scaring them off was all he thought he had to do, which is what he did.

Yokai was trying to justify to himself why Tadashi had to die. It is called bargaining and it is what you do when guilt and grief are your primary motivators.

In the final battle, Yokai specifically traps them in ways that he knows will work against their tech without killing them. We know that Microbot strength is enough to throw a car and yet Wasabi, a science nerd, is able to hold it off? What was to stop Gogo from just being crushed instantly? He could have killed them all instantly any time he desired. The only way to explain why they were still alive is that his morals prevented him from directly killing his students.

None of his actions in anyway suggest that he is without morals which is why I took the perk.

The Real Deal

I am very aware of the tactical abilities of your team. They are clever and capable of thinking outside the box. I respect all of them but it doesn't matter here as Yokai is well out of their league power wise. Full knowledge here is only going to tell them that they are screwed.

Wolverine

We can both agree he is a non-issue here. His adamantium claws will do nothing to the Microbots and once he is found to be difficult to kill, Yokai will use the Cold Gun and end things.

Bucky

If you read your own scan for Bucky you see Iron Man's armor call his device a "Precision EMP Attack." That EMP attack is designed to maybe go a foot or so based upon the wavy lines. He would take out maybe a hundred or so Microbots with millions still to go. He gets his EMP off and then gets an adamantium fist through the heart. At best, he buys himself a couple seconds of life before he dies.

Hawkeye

Hawkeye is the most dangerous but he only generally has maybe 1 or 2 specialty arrows. The range on that arrow is basically the same size as the sphere that Yokai traps Gogo in which means he loses a couple hundred thousand microbots before Hawkeye gets impaled by an adamantium fist through the heart. No one was able to get anywhere close to Yokai, the good guys only stood a chance after they reduced the number of microbots he had by an order of magnitude. Your team has no means of doing that.

The EMP

But let's talk about the EMP itself and why that is not a good means of attack. EMPs are generally the go to attack for machine foes with good reason.

An EMP works by basically creating a temporary electromagnetic field that disrupts the low-level magnetic fields generated by currents running through active electronic devices. This is effective against electronics on earth if the EMP is detonated at high altitude but at lower altitude the earth's magnetic field can dampen the effects.

Since Hawkeye and Bucky are both incapable of reaching low orbit, their EMPs have extremely limited range and weaker EM field generation. Against most electronics, this will do the trick because they have much weaker EM fields than Hawkeye and Bucky can create. Against Yokai's Microbots, however, this is not the case.

Microbots create a powerful magnetic field to allow them to stick together and combine their strength to lift large objects like the Sparrow portal generator. Now to perform such a feat, each microbot in the chain has to produce a field powerful enough to support the weight of every other microbot and whatever they are carrying. Each Microbot's electromagnetic field has to be capable of holding at least a couple tons. If a Microbot's field can't hack it, then it becomes a weak link in the chain and the weight pulls it apart.

When Hawkeye or Bucky's EMP hits the EM field of the Microbots their overlapping fields will function as a shield against the errant EM field created by the EMP. At best, their EMPs maybe take the exterior layer of Microbots but they won't pierce any further.

Did you ever wonder why 4 super genius scientists didn't think to use an EMP? Hiro built these things so he knows how they work. Hiro, Wasabi, and Gogo all use powerful magnetic fields to make their tech work. They could build an EMP with no problem but none of these geniuses thought to build one. Do you want to know why? Because Hiro knows how EMPs work and knows how his Microbots work. He knows that an EMP would be ineffective against the EM fields the microbots generate.

Bucky and Hawkeye's EMPs would be basically useless here. You'd have to show their EMPs working against machines that have powerful EM Fields protecting them.

Conclusion

Even we if disregard the fact that their weak EMPs wouldn't be able to get through the Microbots EM field, you'll only get maybe 1-2 shots before Yokai's Adamantium Microbots punch a hole through them. The sheer number of Microbots that Yokai has at his command numbers in the billions.

No one on your team is really equipped to deal with Yokai much less a morals off Yokai with Adamantium Microbots, Adamantium Silver Samurai Armor, and a Cold Gun. You have street level guys going against what is in effect a mid-tier threat. They just don't stand a chance.

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#27 Posted by Chronicplane (9216 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Edited by HigorM (8923 posts) - - Show Bio

@DedmanWalkin:

Pre-Battle

For me it's clear that Yokai is already a morals off character, simply by having done all that to achieve his goals, and often not caring about the consequences, as was the case of the death Tadashi. It's also clear that what you have in mind for him to do is the very essence of a bloodlusted character, the one that goes straight for the kill, that's exactly what you have described in your strategy, and in this sense your plan is very questionable from my perspective.

That's my understanding about the whole issue, I'll just leave to the voters to decide about this topic.

Now moving on to the:

Actual Battle

As you said my team is very capable tactical-wise, so combined with full knowledge I'm sure they will know exactly what do to put him down. They would be screwed if they had no means of defeating him, but that's not the case here. Wolverine might not be as useful as the others but they will all play a part in the plan. That being said i'll quote this part of your argument:

No one was able to get anywhere close to Yokai, the good guys only stood a chance after they reduced the number of microbots he had by an order of magnitude. Your team has no means of doing that.

That's not true, in their first fight as a team, Hiro manage to remove his mask by accident, just by falling on top of him. I'm sure my team can do better than that.

Especially if we combine with this part:

Even if the Silver Samurai Suit's Systems don't work, it doesn't matter, Yokai has microbots that can provide movement even if the suit itself is dead

It does matter for me, because in this case we have a totally diferent scenario. Without the suit, Yokai will behave as he normally would as we can see in the movie, he doesn't walks around with a solid protection, the protection comes in a reactionary way, he reacts in the face of an imminent attack. The thing is, even upon seeing hiro charging at him with Baymax, he wasn't able to anticipate the attack. So that's the enemy my team is facing here, essentially all that changed was the microbots composition, not Yokai modus operandi. Which means that if a bunch of kids manage to defeat Yokai imagine my team which is composed by three tactically skilled individuals who possess full knowledge on the enemy.

EMP

The thing is, Clint doesn't have to generate that much EMP, all he has to do is hit the right spot, which is the neurotransmitter, one of his EMP arrows would be enough to disrupt the device and consequently disable the microbots. I'm sure that both Logan and Bucky possess enough skill/gear to keep Yokai busy while they open a window of opportunity for Hawkeye. Not to mention that we start at opposite ends and without a perk he doesn't know who he's facing, how many or what they are capable of.

He doesn't have ways of tracking my team, predict or avoid an arrow coming towards him. I've already proved he can be caught by surprise without having the time to properly react to defend himself, that's exactly what is going to happen here.

Hawkeye is the most dangerous but he only generally has maybe 1 or 2 specialty arrows.

Actually he packs more than just 2 special arrows, here's what Clint manage to accomplish with his tricky arrows in the past:

But that's not all, he can combine it with vibranium arrows, for example:

Vibranium arrow stops vibrations in Ultron's death trap

Sonic arrows:

Hawkeye also has antarctic vibranium (anti-metal arrows):

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Conclusion

The vibranium arrow will open the way for the rest of the tricky arrows, since as demonstrated, vibranium works well against adamantium. A well place EMP arrow will be more than enough to disrupt the neurotransmitter and cut the connection between the microbots, rendering them useless. Not to mention that a sonic arrow will affect Yokai as much as anyone else since it worked against stronger and more powerful foes before. There's nothing Yokai can do to prevent this from happening considering he doesn't have ways to properly track my team and also doesn't have enough reaction speed to avoid being hit by the arrows the same way he was striked in the movie.

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#29 Posted by Chronicplane (9216 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by Chronicplane (9216 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4192 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: @chronicplane: Sorry work has been crazy this week. Will try to get a post up today or tomorrow.

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#32 Posted by DedmanWalkin (4192 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm:

Pre-Battle

If I had not chosen morals off, you would be arguing the opposite point. I know Yokai well enough to know that he isn't a killer because a killer with his gear would not have lost. He had Wasabi dead to rights in that clip and could have drowned him with a thought. Likewise, we see his microbots move with enough speed and strength as to remove Baymax but it takes more than 30 seconds to crush the rest of the team when he had them cornered? He does everything he can to keep them from dying because he is not a killer. You can continue to argue the point but he didn't even want to kill Krei who he directly blamed for his daughter's death. He isn't the Punisher, his morality would not have allowed him to do what I needed him to do here.

Actual Battle

What is the difference between that clip and the last battle? Enclosed space, Yokai's mobility and overall bot count were heavily limited. He was operating with maybe a couple million there whereas the final battle saw him with billions. In addition, Baymax and Hiro's magnetic connection had so far held up against his microbots so he had no reason to think that the impact of his bots would separate them. What likely happened is that Hiro got scared, accidentally disconnected from Baymax and just happened to bullseye Yokai. There was no plan that Hiro concocted, it was a fluke that shouldn't have happened given how Baymax and Hiro had functioned previously.

It does matter for me, because in this case we have a totally diferent scenario. Without the suit, Yokai will behave as he normally would as we can see in the movie, he doesn't walks around with a solid protection, the protection comes in a reactionary way, he reacts in the face of an imminent attack. The thing is, even upon seeing hiro charging at him with Baymax, he wasn't able to anticipate the attack. So that's the enemy my team is facing here, essentially all that changed was the microbots composition, not Yokai modus operandi. Which means that if a bunch of kids manage to defeat Yokai imagine my team which is composed by three tactically skilled individuals who possess full knowledge on the enemy.

You misunderstand, Yokai will be inside the Silver Samurai armor. I was indicating that even if the suit was deactivated from the cold blast, it would not matter. Yokai's microbots can provide all the mobility he needs even if the suit is offline as they can lift incredibly large weights and manipulate them well enough to construct towers. The suit's mobility does not matter, only the armor.

EMP

He doesn't have ways of tracking my team, predict or avoid an arrow coming towards him. I've already proved he can be caught by surprise without having the time to properly react to defend himself, that's exactly what is going to happen here.

Who needs to track your team? He'll be in a suit made of adamantium microbots protected by a layer of adamantium microbots providing mobility and a large sphere of adamantium Microbots. This means your team has no real means of tracking what Yokai is doing. His Adamantium Blades can cut through anything hear accept for Logan. He will start by putting them 2 feet out of his Sphere and then swinging them around in a circle adding 6 inches on every revolution. Eventually, there will be no where to hide. If he gets lucky and kills your team, awesome but if he does not, he will have effectively destroyed all the cover on the map. You have no where to hide. Remember, these blades are powerful enough to cut through Foximantium, so nothing in the battle field will stop him. After destroying everything, he'll use his freeze gun to systematically freeze the entire battlefield reducing friction to negligible. If you survived the slice and dice and the freezing. You are now left with no cover and severely limited mobility. If anyone on your team takes any action to stop this, they will reveal their position and get destroyed.

But Dedman, Yokai has never done this. They surprised him in the island because he was not expecting a fight. When he was expecting a fight, he devised specific traps designed to entangle them all. He also was largely trying to not kill anyone. He has no such reservations here with morals off. This strategy combines his sphere trap with his battlefield control tactics.

Hawkeye is the most dangerous but he only generally has maybe 1 or 2 specialty arrows.

What I mean here is that with only standard gear as per the rules, he is only going to be carrying maybe 1-2 of his speciality arrows. Unless he has prep, which he does not have here, he doesn't get anything more than 1-2 of specialty arrows. Half of those scans you submitted required special preparation that you do not have here. At best, you have 2 shots. You better make them count because after that, you have no cover, no mobility, and no defense.

Unless you can get your sonic arrow or vibranium arrow through 3 layers of adamantium and the massive magnetic field that will be surrouding Yokai, I don't think either of these special arrows will do much. My Microbots work based on electromagnetic fields which Vibranium has no effect on since Magneto is useless against it.

Hawkeye has only used an Anti-Metal arrow on maybe two occasions which does not satisfy the "standard equipment rule." This means he does not have access to that arrow without prep which he does not have here.

But let's pretend you can use an anti-metal arrow. Did you know that each of those microbots would have to have a large amount of semiconductors in order to function? Semiconductors are immune to the effects of Anti-Metal. Which means that despite melting through the Adamatium Shells, the arrow would have to maintain a perfect trajectory through a mesh of semiconductor components. Even Hawkeye isn't good enough to make that shot. His arrow would likely pierce through a layer or two but eventually it would hit some semiconductors that would deflect it or slow it down. Then the EMP Arrow hits directly afterwards and takes out a couple hundred thousand Microbots but also reveals his position. He dies afterwards.

Conclusion

Trick arrows or not, your team has no real means of getting through his significant armor or stopping his virtually unstoppable attacks. Anti-Metal, Vibranium, Sonic, and EMP will only delay your teams demise not save them.

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#33 Posted by Chronicplane (9216 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: @DedmanWalkin: I'm gonna open this to votes, unless if you want to go to 4 posts each. Any objections?

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#34 Posted by HigorM (8923 posts) - - Show Bio

@chronicplane: that's ok for me, I don't have anything new to address..

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#36 Edited by DiarrheaRegatta (5340 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll have to vote for @higorm here. While Dedman's team was functionally solid, his plan wasn't up to the same standard. Maybe I could buy it with the prep, but without it, it's highly unlikely that

A. Yokai gets the idea to directly kill/incap his teammates before they get a clue on him and either run (which Cold would do) or fight. While I believe that Yokai could take both of them on without much trouble, the idea that he'll quickly grab and figure out the Cold Gun/Samurai Armor before anything else happens is unlikely.

B. The other team has full knowledge on Yokai and his teammates, and with a idea of his mental state and his history, will likely figure out his plan, and will quickly set upon using stuff to counter him, like EMP or Sonic tech. I don't buy that Clint would pull out a Anti-Metal arrow (or if he even has one with him at all times).

C. The fact that all of higorm's team are tactical geniuses that have gotten out of worse situations, and would figure out methods of dealing interference and damage to Yokai. I feel like higorm didn't push this point enough in his posts, which was a shame.

All in all, I do think that Dedman's team by themselves could win purely based off power levels, but his plan simply doesn't work without prep along with it. While he had some very strong counters to some of higorm's methods of disabling Yokai's nanobots, higorm used far more feats, and showed clean examples of Clint's tech effecting individuals with good tech stuff behind them (like Deathlok) so I'll give the vote to him. Close match though.

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#37 Posted by HigorM (8923 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Posted by Helloman (30115 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow.

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#39 Posted by Chronicplane (9216 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

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#42 Posted by Chronicplane (9216 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by Chronicplane (9216 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Posted by Ashrym (2977 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with everything @DiarrheaRegatta said. @higorm supported his argument better with feats while @dedman's argument relied on speculation given the nature of the strategy.

Loved the strategy, btw. I just couldn't see pulling it off without prep, and I think @higorm had a valid point here

"He doesn't have ways of tracking my team, predict or avoid an arrow coming towards him. I've already proved he can be caught by surprise without having the time to properly react to defend himself, that's exactly what is going to happen here."

vote for higorm

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#45 Posted by Chronicplane (9216 posts) - - Show Bio

@ashrym: Thanks for taking the time to vote man, very much appreciated :)

DW - 0

HigorM - 2

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#47 Posted by Chronicplane (9216 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll have to vote for @higorm here. While Dedman's team was functionally solid, his plan wasn't up to the same standard. Maybe I could buy it with the prep, but without it, it's highly unlikely that

A. Yokai gets the idea to directly kill/incap his teammates before they get a clue on him and either run (which Cold would do) or fight. While I believe that Yokai could take both of them on without much trouble, the idea that he'll quickly grab and figure out the Cold Gun/Samurai Armor before anything else happens is unlikely.

B. The other team has full knowledge on Yokai and his teammates, and with a idea of his mental state and his history, will likely figure out his plan, and will quickly set upon using stuff to counter him, like EMP or Sonic tech. I don't buy that Clint would pull out a Anti-Metal arrow (or if he even has one with him at all times).

C. The fact that all of higorm's team are tactical geniuses that have gotten out of worse situations, and would figure out methods of dealing interference and damage to Yokai. I feel like higorm didn't push this point enough in his posts, which was a shame.

All in all, I do think that Dedman's team by themselves could win purely based off power levels, but his plan simply doesn't work without prep along with it. While he had some very strong counters to some of higorm's methods of disabling Yokai's nanobots, higorm used far more feats, and showed clean examples of Clint's tech effecting individuals with good tech stuff behind them (like Deathlok) so I'll give the vote to him. Close match though.

Pretty much agree with all of this, I was overall convinced Higor had the essential tools to take Yokai down.

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#48 Posted by Chronicplane (9216 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanks for taking the time to vote man, very much appreciated :)

DW - 0

HigorM - 3

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#49 Posted by DeathHero61 (18832 posts) - - Show Bio

@diarrhearegatta: what he said. Yokai with no knowledge on his teammates is going to somehow know to steal the tech around him, knowing its significance, and stall for 5 minutes as he kills Cold and SS? Not likely.

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#50 Posted by Chronicplane (9216 posts) - - Show Bio