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#1 Edited by Chronicplane (9183 posts) - - Show Bio

Round I | Match IV:

blackspidey2099

No Caption Provided

Characters:

  • Spider-Man (5)
  • Iron Fist (5)

Perks:

  • Morals off (6)
  • 2 extra character points (4)
No Caption Provided

thewatcherking

No Caption Provided

Characters:

  • X-23 (4)
  • Shoto Todoroki (4)

Perks:

  • Choose Battlefield (4)
  • No Friendly Fire (3)
  • 18 Swat team soldiers (3)

Tournament Stipulations:

  1. 16 Participants, be willing to extend if enough interested
  2. 8 Character Points to spend
  3. 10 Perk points to spend
  4. 14 Day Deadline to post, Though I'm willing to extend if you give a good enough reason(Will bump you every 3 days)
  5. No Unfair Hax(You should know what this means, if you are using hax abilities obviously over limits, you will be kicked)
  6. No Space Manipulation
  7. No Reality Warping
  8. No Matter Manipulation
  9. No Time Manipulation, Though speeding up ones own time is allowed.
  10. Flight is allowed but is restricted to 30 ft(equivalent of a three story building) and no more
  11. Summons/Duplicates/Constructs limited to Navy Seal Team quality. You cannot summon anything or duplicate enough to overwhelm a 12 man Navy Seal Team with ease
  12. TP is limited to Mind Reading
  13. TK is allowed but cannot be used directly on opponents
  14. No BFR
  15. Standard Gear, which means any gear consistently used for a long period of time(like an entire run for example) and still qualifies as street tier unless otherwise specified
  16. Teamwork is a complete factor. The only rule with teamwork is that characters will not directly fight each other.
  17. Tie-In comic feats for Live Action characters allowed
  18. Anime characters are Anime/Manga composite(FMA characters are Brotherhood)
  19. DC is composite Post-Crisis/New52/Rebirth
  20. Marvel is Earth 616 unless stated otherwise
  21. For each round there will either be an extra obstacle to deal with or there will be a certain goal to reach
  22. If you have a problem with a character's pricing, let me know, I'm open to change
  23. Only join if you have intentions of finishing, otherwise don't bother
  24. You must have completed a CaV, a Tourney match or have 500 posts or more
  25. Link to the tournament

Voting Rules:

  1. Only the two participants are allowed to debate
  2. If you want to be tagged to vote at the end, say "T4V" or "TAEP" if you want to be tagged for every post
  3. Vote for whoever was the best debater, or who convinced you more, not for which team you think would win
  4. Make sure to provide reasoning for your vote
  5. Votes based on obvious character bias will not be counted
  6. Be respectful, honorable, and civil towards eachother

Fight Takes Place:

Out of view from the other team. Opposite sides of the ground level floor with no one there except the teams.

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#2 Posted by Chronicplane (9183 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Kevd4wg (12798 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#4 Posted by Defiant_Will (1176 posts) - - Show Bio

Why such low-res images?

Nonetheless, t4v

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#6 Posted by Chronicplane (9183 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by Chronicplane (9183 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Edited by blackspidey2099 (6734 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: so yeah, I was planning to do some edits to my opener in my original match against ET - but I ended up being too busy to do so. I tried to scrub it clean of references to ET's team, but please, if anything I say doesn't fit your team, feel free to ignore it.

THE IRON SPIDERS:

Spider-Man (Peter Parker) & Iron Fist (Danny Rand)
Spider-Man (Peter Parker) & Iron Fist (Danny Rand)

Alright, so I'm pretty sure most people already know who my two characters are, as well as a lot of their capabilities. To that end, I'll keep this introduction very short as to not bore anyone.

Character Overview: Spider-Man

Spider-Man essentially serves as the stats powerhouse of this team, offering strength, speed, and durability in spades. He's able to consistently blitz and dazzle bullet timers like Daredevil, Taskmaster, and Black Panther (to offer just a few examples) with his combat speed, as illustrated with the below example:

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The Amazing Spider-Man Vol. 5 #15

Taskmaster had spent time watching videos of Spider-Man in action to prep himself for this fight, and also held the advantage of surprise (Spider-Man was digging through rubble for his aunt, while Taskmaster was trying to shoot him in the back). Despite that, Peter closes the distance between the two before Tony can even react, and humiliates him in the time it takes to say two words. The difference is that in this fight, Peter is morals off, and as such, he will be more than willing to unleash his full striking power - which I'm sure is more than enough to really put the damage on your team, if not one/two-shot them:

The Amazing Spider-Man #251
The Amazing Spider-Man #251

If that weren't enough, there's also the fact that it will be very tough, if not near impossible, for your team to even touch Spider-Man, given how easily he evades explosions (the main mode of damage of one of your team members).

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The Amazing Spider-Man #276; Fear Itself: Spider-Man #1

These two feats are more than enough to prove that he can dodge attacks from your team with no trouble at all. The first feat shows Spider-Man dodging electricity fired out in random patterns from a computerized targeting system - which is far superior to aim dodging someone's aim, since a computer is more accurate and can react faster than a human. The second feat shows Spider-Man dodging an explosion which he was completely unaware of since the bomb was behind his line of sight and his Spider-Sense wasn't working at the time. Since he does have Spider-Sense in this battle, it would be even easier for him to replicate this. Of course, even if he were to get tagged, it wouldn't do too much damage to him, as he's proven time and time again how resistant he is to energy attacks, like building-leveling explosions.

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Spider-Man Unlimited Vol. 1 #7

Well, that's a lot of stuff... I'm not missing anything, am I? Oh wait - I am. If all those advantages weren't overwhelming enough, Spider-Man can also rely on his trusty web-shooters from a range, giving him the ability to trap your team in a substance far stronger than steel:

AvX: VS #2
AvX: VS #2

Unless your characters have the physical strength to break out of it, Spider-Man can simply immobilize your characters at a range, rendering them completely helpless. Considering how well Peter used webbing to fodderize Wolverine (an arguably better version of Laura) when even remotely serious, he should easily be able to replicate the below showing in this battle against Laura:

Marvel Team-Up Vol. 3 #1
Marvel Team-Up Vol. 3 #1

Character Overview: Iron Fist

Just as Peter provides the stats for my team, Danny provides the skill and sheer damage output, with his mastery over chi and various forms of martial arts, as well as being solidly quicker than anyone on your team, as far as I'm aware:

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Iron Fist: The Living Weapon #12

He literally moves several feet, knocks the woman's handgun away, and catches a bullet, all in the span of time it takes for her to pull the trigger - a very impressive feat of both combat and reaction speed that I'm not sure your team can replicate.

However, even more impressive are his sheer skill and damage output, as would be expected from someone who knows infinite ways to kill his enemies.

Immortal Iron Fist #9
Immortal Iron Fist #9

A prime example of this skill would be when Danny (before enhancing his knowledge and skill even further with the Book of the Iron Fist) took down 88 highly trained and equipped SHIELD agents in around 7 minutes - without even using his Iron Fist.

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Iron Fist Vol. 3 #2

(and yes, I know they look like they're wearing HYDRA uniforms, but they're SHIELD agents)

When he does use the Fist, though, his damage output is nearly unparalleled, especially on the street tier. Even before his amp, it could output enough power to hit people hard enough to level buildings and stop trains:

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Power Man #48; The Deadly Hands of Kung Fu #18

After his amp, well, I'm sure you already know about his famous helicarrier-busting feat - but here it is again:

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New Avengers Vol. 1 #59/60

I don't want to over-step any bounds, but I find it hard to believe anyone on your team can take blows of such magnitude and come out of it alive - especially since my team is morals off and won't be holding back at all. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if even just the shockwaves of such a blow did some notable damage to your team.

Conclusion:

With that said, I'll leave it to you to introduce your team and their capabilities to me in your post. For now though, I'd like to reiterate just how much sheer power is on my team's side. I'm far from an expert on your characters, but from what I've heard, you're definitely outgunned - and not just by a little bit. Of course, I'm sure you have something up your sleeve... Good luck with your next post, and the rest of this debate.

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#9 Edited by Chronicplane (9183 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18455 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by Chronicplane (9183 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: It's almost 3 days and I like to have all my threads bumped at the same time every 3 days, I've said since the start that I would be keeping a sharp eye on everyone, hence as why I implemented the 3 day bump rule. This is too make sure to remind those who "may" forget to post. Tho you did ask in advance so I do apologize for tagging you here.

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#12 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18455 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackspidey2099: As promised I decided to save any counters I had for my next post to avoid this getting too long to read.

Todoroki

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Cryokinesis

Freezes a multistory building in seconds, also keep in mind that his ice is so cold that moving after being frozen can peel the skin off someone.

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Is capable of bringing out his giant ice ridge(which can cover a large part of a stadium ) before Eraserhear can finish blinking.

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His ice is so cold that it breaks apart Noumu, who is durable enough to eat punches from All Might(a holding back All Might can punch the air so hard it wrecks city blocks).

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Freezes a bunch of people in place.

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Freezes a zero pointer Robot effortlessly, keep in mind these things tower over buildings.

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Pyrokinesis

Remember how I said his ice frozen over an entire building? Well he was able to casually melt all that ice inside and out of the building,without actually bringing out his flames.

his fire is hot enough to be felt across a stadium.

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Can create powerful explosions by superheating the air after cooling it with his ice.

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When he really pushes himself, his fire can be as hot as his dad‘s(Endeavor). This is impressive, since he is capable of burning through a Noumu’s head on the cellular level.

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Physicals

Speed

Is fast enough to dodge a kick from Tenya, who is capable of moving at supersonicspeeds with his recipro burst.

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As shown already, he is capable of firing off giant walls of ice before Eraserhead can finish blinking.

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He has also shown he is capable of fighting evenly with Bakugou in speed(despite his heart not really being in the fight).

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Keep in mind Bakugou can blitz bullet timers like 5% Deku.

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Durability

Tanks being sent through his ice by Deku’s 100% finger flicks

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Takes a punch from 5% Deku.

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Tanks a hit from tetsutetsu(casual wall buster).

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Costume

His gear helps him regulate his body temperature

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X-23

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Speed

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  1. Perceives bullets
  2. Slices Punisher's gun before he can pull the trigger
  3. Dodges point blank machine gunfire from behind
  4. Wolverine admits she is faster than he is
  5. Slices someone's hand faster than they can see.
  6. Deflects a bullet after it's been fired.

Durability

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  1. Is fine despite being rammed though four walls
  2. Tanks falling out of an airplane with enough force to create a crater
  3. tanks a punch from a giant while dying and without her healing factor

4-5.Tanks a fall off a building.

Healing factor

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  1. Heals fractured ankles in moments.
  2. Can fight for long periods of time due to her healing factor repairing her muscles.
  3. Heals from Lady Deathstrike tearing open her stomach in moments.
  4. Healing from having her leg basically torn off and her other leg dislocated in seconds.
  5. Heals from an explosion that destroyed an entire facility.
  6. Continuation of five.
  7. Wolverine admits X-23's healing factor is better than his

Strategy

Okay, so before I get into my plan I first need to highlight the advantages to the location I picked.

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Knowing you and your team you likely would plan to have your team blitz mine and overwhelm them with your power. However we start on opposite sides of the ground floor, meaning you would have to prove that Spidey/Danny can blitz my team that is at least 200-400 ft.+ away which I find highly unlikely.

With this out of the way, Todoroki will be spamming his large scale ice attacks similar to this, which even if Spider-Man/Iron Fist can react to it will be difficult to avoid due to its massive AoE.

No Caption Provided

If Spider-Man and Iron Fist want to survive their only choice will be to close the distance between them and my team. If they do though, they risk being burnt to a crisp from Todoroki’s fire. Even if you want to argue they can withstand the heat long enough to take it Todoroki remember that he isn’t alone. They would have to deal with all my fodder(who would have been shooting at them this whole time) as well as X-23, who while not as fast as them normally won’t be being burned alive so she is in better condition than they are. If needed Todoroki will crank up his heat to his max, which should be more than enough to take out your team. And if they retreat from his flames at any point he can go back to uses his ice to incap them.

Just to recap

  • We start far enough away that a blitz GG argument is totally unlikely, even if you did have a speed advantage.
  • Due to the AoE of his attacks it will be hard to avoid his ice attacks, even if you are fast enough to react. And even if you dodged one he can always fire off another.
  • If you get close Todoroki will switch to using his flames, which you need to prove you can tank to not be burned to a crisp.
  • Remember that I have a no friendly fire perk, so X-23 and my swat team will be unaffected by Todoroki’s attacks.
  • My swat team will have been firing at your team this whole time, so dodging large scale ice attacks and AoE fire blasts will be even harder than you think.
  • To take out Todoroki you would have to prove you can pretty much no sell his fire, which I doubt is the case. If it isn’t it will be hard to believe you can fight X-23 and avoid being shot at while being burned alive.
  • Also keep in mind when he super heats the air it causes powerful explosions, nothing is stopping him from creating them here.
  • If your team retreats from the flames Todoroki will go back to using his ice to incap your team.
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#13 Posted by Chronicplane (9183 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by Chronicplane (9183 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Posted by blackspidey2099 (6734 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by Chronicplane (9183 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by Chronicplane (9183 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18455 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by Chronicplane (9183 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by blackspidey2099 (6734 posts) - - Show Bio

@chronicplane: I thought you said on Discord you were going to give me till the end of this week? If you've changed your mind, then go ahead and kick me. I'm not getting a post up until Friday.

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#21 Edited by Chronicplane (9183 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackspidey2099: Oh yeah I forgot about till the end of this week, it slipped my mind lmao. You've still got that extension, my bad.

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#22 Posted by Chronicplane (9183 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by Chronicplane (9183 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18455 posts) - - Show Bio

@chronicplane: isn’t this tourney dead anyway? Seems pointless to keep tagging him

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#25 Edited by Chronicplane (9183 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: Eh not really, some matches are still going on atm and one has yet to finish voting. Tho the first half of matches did end in drop outs however the remaining participants for round 2 are still interested in continuing. It's just been more so very slow as all.

If Blackspidey doesn't get a post up by the end off today I'm gonna give him the boot and you will move on, assuming your still interested on moving on that is.

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#27 Posted by blackspidey2099 (6734 posts) - - Show Bio

Initial Counters & Rebuttals:

Todoroki Counters:

Cryokinesis:

I don't think the ice is going to do much to slow my team down, considering that Danny can use his chi as an energy attack to easily melt it. Here are a couple examples of him doing just that:

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Defenders Vol. 5 #7; Iron Fist: The Living Weapon #2

While it won't destroy all the ice, it should be no issue whatsoever for Danny to make sure neither him nor Peter are hindered in any way by it.

Furthermore, you didn't provide any strength/durability feats for the ice. Considering that both Peter and Danny casually wreck far stronger materials like concrete and steel, I don't see why they would have any trouble moving through something as relatively weak as ice is.

I know you posted this:

His ice is so cold that it breaks apart Noumu, who is durable enough to eat punches from All Might(a holding back All Might can punch the air so hard it wrecks city blocks).

but I don't think that scaling is remotely valid. In your scans themselves, it says Nomu's power is "shock absorption" and that he's a living sandbag who is good at absorbing hits. It makes sense that Nomu is good at taking physical hits, in that case, but it allows for no scaling to damage of an entirely different kind, like cold. I don't think that's a valid feat at all, at least for using scaling.

Furthermore, doesn't the ice completely render X-23 useless? She has no way of escaping it or countering it.

Pyrokinesis:

This is useless against Danny. I left this out of my opener, but he has a pretty nifty use of his chi which should allow him to just absorb the energy of the explosion and take no damage from it, as you can see here:

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The Immortal Iron Fist #14

I'm not saying that was a nuke level explosion, but the mere fact that that was a relevant comparison to make should put it above any of Todoroki's explosions.

Furthermore, although the explosions you showed have impressive range, you didn't really show any impressive attack potency, which is what matters more. From what you showed, even his largest explosions didn't have much power in them, considering no one in the audience felt a thing. Spider-Man has tanked extremely large explosions before, so I'm sure he won't have issues fighting through these.

Peter has multiple feats of tanking building level explosions. I've shown you one already, but here are a couple more:

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  • 1 - 2: Spider-Man tanks Nova's blast which levels a building onto his head, even singlehandedly digging out of all that rubble later(Nova Vol. 2 #3).
  • 3: Spider-Man tanks a point blank gas station explosion caused by Electro, taking little to no damage from it (Marvel Knights: Spider-Man Vol. #3).

Melting ice is hardly OP.

Speed:

Is fast enough to dodge a kick from Tenya, who is capable of moving at supersonicspeeds with his recipro burst.

I'm not sure that the recipro burst was supersonic, just because it appeared to cause a shockwave in terms of the animation effects. Is there anything more concrete to suggest that it is? Furthermore, it appears that the blitz was the only thing that was supersonic. Supersonic travel speed =/= supersonic combat speed, which is what the kick was.

Other than that, keeping up with someone who can blitz a bullet-timer is okay, but it's too much scaling for me. Is there anything with less scaling you can use for speed feats?

Durability:

I don't see why Peter or Danny can't one-shot.

X-23 Counters:

I really have nothing more to say here beyond reposting what I said in my opener:

Marvel Team-Up Vol. 3 #1
Marvel Team-Up Vol. 3 #1
Even if X-23 is a bit faster than Logan, I don't think it's at all by a large enough amount to say she can avoid this.

Strategy:

  • Power through the AoEs, then Danny one-shots Todoroki while Peter web incaps Laura.
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#28 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18455 posts) - - Show Bio

No Caption Provided

Counters

Todoroki

I don't think the ice is going to do much to slow my team down, considering that Danny can use his chi as an energy attack to easily melt it. Here are a couple examples of him doing just that:

Just because he can manipulate his chi to create AoE blasts doesn’t mean anything. What proof is there that they generate enough heat to “easily melt“ this much ice like you claimed it can?

No Caption Provided

This is at the very least large building sized, and thus far you haven’t even proved it generates enough heat to melt ice(not all energy based attacks in fiction generate heat). I don’t think this is a good idea for Iron Fist to go for, but by all means argue it. Because as I said literally nothing stops Todoroki from firing off another one. He was practically spamming his large scale ice attacks in his fight with Deku.

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So if you want to waste Iron Fist’s chi till it’s depleted I this is a good idea, not if you want to win though...

Plus Iron Fist seems to have to move his arms to direct his chi, but all Todoroki has to do is wave his arm to immediately freeze him and the area around him(instead of firing a giant ice wall).

No Caption Provided

And do remember that if your team stops for a singe second they will be shot to to hell by my swat team, so it wouldn’t be a good idea to “power through“ these attacks like your plan is.

While it won't destroy all the ice, it should be no issue whatsoever for Danny to make sure neither him nor Peter are hindered in any way by it.

Except you are, you haven’t proven it will be melted by Iron Fist’s chi. Even if he could he would only be helping himself and not Spider-Man since he would only be able to melt a small portion of the ice. Though again Todoroki could just fire off another one.

Furthermore, you didn't provide any strength/durability feats for the ice. Considering that both Peter and Danny casually wreck far stronger materials like concrete and steel, I don't see why they would have any trouble moving through something as relatively weak as ice is.

Glad that you asked. Todoroki‘s was shown to be capable of freezing Wolfram’s attacks in place as well as outright stopping them.

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Wolfram was powerful enough to hurt and match a weakened All Might’s power.

but I don't think that scaling is remotely valid. In your scans themselves, it says Nomu's power is "shock absorption"

Quite literally Shigaraki says that‘s not his only power...

No Caption Provided

...he still has superhuman stats.

that he's a living sandbag who is good at absorbing hits

No it says he is a sandbag designed to withstand everything you’ve got. However even if you’re right this doesn’t change anything. It’s been stated several times that his ice is so cold that moving after being frozen would rip the skin off you and we have an example of someone(Noumu) literally breaking to pieces from how cold it was. I have yet to see a single feat to say you’re team will fare any better so I don’t see your team tanking this.

And keep in mind your team has no knowledge on Todoroki, so they wouldn’t even know this would happen to them if they tried breaking out, making it all the more likely to happen.

Furthermore, doesn't the ice completely render X-23 useless? She has no way of escaping it or countering it.

Todoroki has fired off attacks like this without effecting people who he‘s working with before, but I have a no friendly fire perk regardless so there is no point in discussing this.

I'm not saying that was a nuke level explosion, but the mere fact that that was a relevant comparison to make should put it above any of Todoroki's explosions

The fact that you are using this is beyond absurd. It was quite obviously supposed to be a nuke level explosion, as it even says the explosion will make Hiroshima(referencing the first atomic bomb dropped on Japan during WWII) look like a sparkler.

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This is an obvious outlier, I have no idea why you think you can pass this off as okay. Regardless he knew about this explosion ahead of time, Iron Fist can’t know ahead of time that Todoroki’s super heating the air will cause an explosion. This also doesn’t give him any protection against fire in general.

Furthermore, although the explosions you showed have impressive range, you didn't really show any impressive attack potency, which is what matters more. From what you showed, even his largest explosions didn't have much power in them, considering no one in the audience felt a thing.

What on earth do you mean they lack potency? Even a building level explosion wouldn’t have enough force to send people flying hundreds of ft. away like we see with Midnight and Mineta.

Peter has multiple feats of tanking building level explosions. I've shown you one already, but here are a couple more:

Anyway I wasn’t going argue this would one shot Iron Fist or Spider-Man, however this will definitely hurt them and knock them off their feet. This would also give a great opportunity to flash frozen them by Todoroki.

Melting ice is hardly OP.

This is utter downplay. Todoroki literally vaporized ice that covered every inch of a multi story building, inside and out. Even casually vaporizing that much water would take a lot of heat, but to do that instantly with ice would require even more. Regardless, I will assume you think tanking an explosion is enough to say Spider-Man can tank Todoroki’s fire(since this is what you did in our last debate)? Well even if you ignore the obvious difference between an explosion which last for a fraction of a second and a continuous blast of fire it doesn’t matter. You see, Uraraka was continually tanking Bakugou‘s explosions....

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....and yet she herself remarked how hot Todoroki’s fire is while hundreds of feet away.

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Keep in mind this was a causal burst of fire Todoroki was giving off, after not training his fire powers in nearly a decade. He has been training his fire powers since then so they would be even more powerful since then. I still don’t see why Todoroki‘s fire when he cranks it to his max wouldn’t instantly char you guys, as again it burns on a cellular level. Iron Fist and Spider-Man aren’t tanking that, period.

I'm not sure that the recipro burst was supersonic, just because it appeared to cause a shockwave in terms of the animation effects.

Maybe cause it was a sonic boom and not a shockwave?

Furthermore, it appears that the blitz was the only thing that was supersonic. Supersonic travel speed =/= supersonic combat speed, which is what the kick was.

His kick also created a sonic boom, so the difference is negligible.

Other than that, keeping up with someone who can blitz a bullet-timer is okay, but it's too much scaling for me. Is there anything with less scaling you can use for speed feats?

Not really, Todorok doesn’t get a lot of focus in the series so the speed feats I gave are all he has.

X-23

Even if X-23 is a bit faster than Logan, I don't think it's at all by a large enough amount to say she can avoid this.

Well first off Spider-Man would be an idiot to try something that literally already failed before.

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Marvel team-up (2004) issue #5

That said I don’t need to argue X-23 being superior to Iron Fist or Spider-Man because this isn’t a 1v1 fight. I have already given my strategy that circumvent the fact that Laura would lose to either member of your team in a one on one fight. If Spider-Man gets within range of Laura he is going to be roasted alive, and if that’s the case Laura would have the advantage due to my no friendly perk.

Thoughts

  • After my opponents somewhat rushed counter I have no doubt in my mind that this is a battle for my team to win.
  • His strategy involves powering through the AoE(his words) and beating down my team. But as I shown, he can survive neither ice or fire, so doing so is an automatic win for me.
  • He gave no proof that his team can deal with the ice, and he isn’t even arguing that they will avoid the ice so I don’t see why they won’t end up breaking to pieces like Noumu did.
  • The Todoroki’s casual flames are no joke, and since I’m not convinced they can tank his the flames at his normal level his max should be way too much.
  • Explosions can be used to knock them around and temporarily slow them down, which is perfect since if they stop at all they get flash frozen.
  • He never addressed my swat team, which would make dealing with the AoE even harder.
  • I can’t see my opponents team winning. They either get flash frozen, burnt to a crisp, shot while avoiding the fire/ice, or a combination of hem all.

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#29 Edited by OrangeVegeta (6 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#30 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18455 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Edited by OrangeVegeta (6 posts) - - Show Bio

TheWatcherKing has my vote. While both sides made compelling arguments, I feel Watcher had a better overall strategy and counters. Regardless, this was a cool match up with both teams being interesting.

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#33 Posted by Ashrym (2935 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: Has my vote. I felt the size of the AoE's was imoressive and countering the ice was not given strong support from blackspidey2099.

Iron Fist countering fire with energy absorption was a bit more believable but I didn't see it really getting to that point given ice spam and the chi drain counter, plus starting distance.

I also thought the Nova blast was a nice durability feat but it also demonstrated how an AoE can defeat Spiderman's speed and agility.

It was close though; it was nice to see Iron Fist's destructive potential and better to explore that more.

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#34 Posted by DeathHero61 (18828 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: gets my vote he had all his bases covered and had solid counters. I felt Blackspidey wasn't creative enough in his counters nor did he attempt to research his opponents characters to formulate an argument. For example, if Todoroki threw out an ice ridge specifically you could have mentioned how Bakugou managed to burrow through it or how Deku(who is in spidey's tier) managed to easily shatter them. Ornyou could have got creative and had Spiderman and Danny(more likely spiderman) scale the ice ridge and use them as a quick foothold launch himself with his webs or something. Or maybe to reinforce speed and agility go into Spidey's track record since speed and agility is his forte.

Watcher basically guided thr debate and tried harder.

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#35 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18455 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by Chronicplane (9183 posts) - - Show Bio

TWK - 3

BS - 0

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#38 Posted by cdiddyman911 (5537 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll vote on this in a few hours

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#39 Posted by DiarrheaRegatta (5190 posts) - - Show Bio

TheWatcherKing has my vote. While both sides made compelling arguments, I feel Watcher had a better overall strategy and counters. Regardless, this was a cool match up with both teams being interesting.

Does this actually count as a legit vote? lol

Anyway, I'm going to vote for @blackspidey2099. While he was hindered in that he kinda had to rush his posts through (which any debater can testify to having to do, don't lie) I feel like his team had the advantage in terms of a close quarters fight, and Watcher knew this, arguing that his team could perhaps take out or slow down them using various projectiles, which while I was convinced would do damage, wasn't convinced that they could stop the pair from the offensive charge. Watcher tried implying that a basic SWAT team would "make dealing with the AOE even harder" despite the fact that Pete has already manhandled about 80 of them already while they were trying to gang up on him, and the fact that I doubt Todoroki would do and potentially hurt his teammates, and before you go "friendly fire tho" that doesn't mean that the characters know that they can't do damage to each other, and I doubt they would want to find out or experiment with that possibility.

Also, I feel like Watcher's team was skipping over the teamwork argument, none of his teammates know each other, and X-23, while being capable of working together with people, I doubt she would

A. Work with a dude that she has no knowledge of, or have any reason to trust

B. Somehow be fine with morally wounding or killing two people who she knows pretty well, and knows that they are not bad guys

C. Be fine with some dude who she has no knowledge of hunting down and killing people who she knows pretty well, and not let her morals get in the way

BS's team doesn't have this problem- both are from the same universe and know each other very well, having worked together in the past. Being morals off means Danny can go full power, which I doubt any of Watcher's team could withstand, and I wasn't convinced by his defences against Spidey and Danny's speed.

Overall, I don't really see Watcher's team take a clear majority with the arguments I've seen on both ends here. Going with BS (even if I know he is capable of much better, if he wasn't in a rush)

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#40 Posted by Chronicplane (9183 posts) - - Show Bio

TheWatcherKing has my vote. While both sides made compelling arguments, I feel Watcher had a better overall strategy and counters. Regardless, this was a cool match up with both teams being interesting.

Do you mind if ya could elaborate a bit more on why you think Watcher has your vote?

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#41 Posted by OrangeVegeta (6 posts) - - Show Bio

@Chronicplane

Of course. Sorry for not elaborating more to begin with. I wrote my vote when I was crushed for time.

Watcher, to me, had a great understanding of his opponent's team. He knew what would and would not work in that teams favor. The AoE attacks of Todoroki should theoretically prove to be too much for Danny and Pete to handle. This on top of X-23's combat skills and a SWAT team put this in Watcher's favor.

To give credit where credit is due, Chronic's team had much better teamwork, given that Danny and Peter know each other.

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#42 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18455 posts) - - Show Bio

@diarrhearegatta: Thanks for voting but I would like to get clarification on a few things.

1. You do know that you’re supposed to vote based on arguments presented right? Not what you know yourself about the characters? Several things you said my opponent didn’t at all say in this debate. Also I only argued the swat team making it difficult to avoid AoE ice and fire because to get to the swat team they have to avoid the AoE ice, and be able to withstand the fire when they get to them. And considering we start hundreds of ft. away from each other the chance of none of them firing a single bullet is unlikely.

2.No friendly fire absolutely means that their attacks won’t hurt their teammates.... that’s the whole point of a no friendly fire perk....

3.You brought up the teamwork issue, another point not brought up by my opponent, and one that wouldn’t be an issue with my team anyway. X-23 has worked with people that she knows little about and as per tourney regulations they know they must work together so I don’t see the point. They wouldn’t fight each other and my plan doesn’t require any high levels of cooperation between them.

4. I never said Laura would mortally wound them, heck I never even said she would stab them. She obviously would as that’s in character for her but she can use her claws non lethally regardless(also another argument not brought up with my opponent).

5. Todoroki doesn’t kill in character, and never has. He would be fine with it if needed but he uses his fire/ice to knock out and/or incap his opponents.

6. Overall your reasoning seems like what you would argue given you were in this debate and not actually what my opponent put forth, which is why I would like further clarification.

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#43 Posted by DiarrheaRegatta (5190 posts) - - Show Bio

@diarrhearegatta: Thanks for voting but I would like to get clarification on a few things.

1. You do know that you’re supposed to vote based on arguments presented right? Not what you know yourself about the characters? Several things you said my opponent didn’t at all say in this debate. Also I only argued the swat team making it difficult to avoid AoE ice and fire because to get to the swat team they have to avoid the AoE ice, and be able to withstand the fire when they get to them. And considering we start hundreds of ft. away from each other the chance of none of them firing a single bullet is unlikely.

The only thing that BS didn't say was the SWAT team feat. The rest is either assumption about their power levels or talking about the points made or not made in the debate.

2.No friendly fire absolutely means that their attacks won’t hurt their teammates.... that’s the whole point of a no friendly fire perk....

Yes, but morals is still a factor, and I don't know if your team knows that friendly fire isn't a factor here. I said this in the vote- "before you go "friendly fire tho" that doesn't mean that the characters know that they can't do damage to each other, and I doubt they would want to find out or experiment with that possibility."

3.You brought up the teamwork issue, another point not brought up by my opponent, and one that wouldn’t be an issue with my team anyway. X-23 has worked with people that she knows little about and as per tourney regulations they know they must work together so I don’t see the point. They wouldn’t fight each other and my plan doesn’t require any high levels of cooperation between them.

It's a point nonetheless, and one not addressed. At least BS's team has the assumption that they would work well together. X-23 has worked with rather obscure people in the past, but this doesn't mean that the team would work well together here. Hell, even the tourney regulations just say that "Teamwork is a complete factor. The only rule with teamwork is that characters will not directly fight each other" meaning that there is no guarantee that your team members will both fight to the best of their ability. Who knows, she might just refuse to fight.

4. I never said Laura would mortally wound them, heck I never even said she would stab them. She obviously would as that’s in character for her but she can use her claws non lethally regardless(also another argument not brought up with my opponent).

Yes, but if you were in the situation where BS's team had the advantage (which from what I seen, seemed to be the case with most of the debate) then this becomes a problem. Maybe with morals off, I could buy her fighting people she knows well.

5. Todoroki doesn’t kill in character, and never has. He would be fine with it if needed but he uses his fire/ice to knock out and/or incap his opponents.

I did address this at the start of my comment by saying that you were trying to either slow down or take out (as in, KO or incap) BS's team. This makes beating BS's team harder in my opinion as they wouldn't be going all out.

6. Overall your reasoning seems like what you would argue given you were in this debate and not actually what my opponent put forth, which is why I would like further clarification.

Not really. I'm just picking up on some points not made in the debate, and why I think BS's plan of a all out assault means that your team is defeated in the process by not addressing such arguments.

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#44 Posted by blackspidey2099 (6734 posts) - - Show Bio

@diarrhearegatta: @ashrym: @deathhero61: @orangevegeta: thanks for voting everyone!

To clarify: the reason I didn't address the SWAT team in my second post wasn't because of some sort of strategy or anything like that; I just completely missed that Watcher had one. I've been been really busy with IRL stuff the past 2/3 weeks, so I just quickly skimmed through Watcher's opener and wrote a barebones post to ensure I wouldn't be kicked from the tourney, with the expectation I'd get another post afterwards - which didn't happen.

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#45 Posted by Chronicplane (9183 posts) - - Show Bio
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#46 Posted by Chronicplane (9183 posts) - - Show Bio
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#48 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18455 posts) - - Show Bio

@chronicplane: So is it safe to assume I won(even though I decided to let BS advance)?

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#49 Posted by Chronicplane (9183 posts) - - Show Bio