MUI Goku vs SSJB Gogeta

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@devoidruby:

Goku Mastered Ultra Instinct thrashed Kanba and Vegito Blue Kaioken X10 after Tournament of Power couldn't even touch Kanba in his base form.

Gogeta never showed anything that's remotely even on par with Goku MUI and Jiren Limit Breaker.

Try again Gogeta fanboy.

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@chasekilleen: Heroes isn’t canon and even then doesn’t use the same Goku and vegeta from DBS.

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Giojoestar

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Gogeta would win mid to possibly high diff imo. MY reason is that in the novel, frieza believed that no one in existence would win against SS broly and Gogeta stomped an even more powerful broly. Not to mention another fact that Goku described broly to be someone who is possibly stronger than beerus, with that in mind Broly should be comparable to both ultra instinct goku and Jiren. In other words the fight will have the same result albeit alot more difficult than broly due to the auto dodge hax ultra instinct offers

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Gogeta

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@devoidruby: What??

It doesn't use the same Goku and Begeta from Dragon Ball Super?

You might want to watch it...

It said after Tournament of Power and Goku had Blue Kaioken, Vegeta has Blue Evolved, Goku uses Ultra Instinct.

Where is the supposed difference from the Super series...

In the first episode of Dragon Ball Heroes episode 1, they literally said after the Tournament of Power. Are you playing that ignorant card?

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DevoidRuby

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@chasekilleen: Then why is Trunks there? Why is Mai there? Where’s Broly? Where’s Moro?

Heroes isn’t canon to DBS, it’s canon to Heroes.

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@devoidruby: You just said it's not the same as Super Goku and Vegeta in Super, when literally it said "After the Tournament of Power"

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DevoidRuby

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@chasekilleen: It isn’t the same Goku and Vegeta because it’s not the same continuity.

There’s numerous differences like Trunks, Mai and Fuu being around while Broly, Moro and such aren’t even hinted at or mentioned.

Heroes is not canon, you can’t compare it to the canon timeline.

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@devoidruby: SSB Gogeta is stronger than Goku in his Ultra Instinct form is the most ridiculous thing ever.
Endurance-wise, yes Gogeta wins.
Since Mastered Ultra Instinct form can only last so long.

However speed and power-wise Mastered Ultra Instinct is vastly superior than Gogeta Blue.
MUI Goku has already been confirmed that it surpasses Beerus and possibly all the other Gods of Destruction too.
NEVER has Toyotaro nor Toriyama stated that Gogeta was more powerful than Beerus.
Even in the movie, Gogeta showed no feats besides kicking and playing Broly around.
Which doesn't show anything even remotely close to what Goku in his Mastered Ultra Instinct was capable of.

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@devoidruby: Oh okay, I guess Dragon Ball Fighterz characters are not the same as the anime since it's not canon, nor is it continuing from any continuity.

You can't say that the charcters are not the same just because they are not canon.

That's just the stupidest logic ever.

Regardless if it's canon or not.

It's Goku and Vegeta from after the Tournaments of Power.

Because that's what the story is set in...

It's from after the Tournament of Power, therefore it's the Goku and Vegeta after Super.

I never once said that Heroes was canon did I?

It's based off of a fricking video game, made into anime adaptation.

There's no proof that it's not the same as Super, because they literally say After the tournament of power.

If we're going by your logic then Super isn't canon and everything in Super should be disregarded, not only did it make the ending of the Z timeline irrelevant, but Toriyama has barely any involvement in the Super franchise WHATSOEVER.

Toyotaro does pretty much 95%+ of Dragon Ball Super.

Therefore Super is not canon, you know because Toriyama has little involvement with Super's storyline.

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Gogeta

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Gogeta > MUI Goku =/= LB Jiren =/= LSSJ Broly =/= Beerus

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@logiclancer: Uhm what??
Gogeta being stronger than MUI does not equal to the characters stated above?

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@chasekilleen: Not really. Gogeta is stronger than MUI, who is on the level of said characters. Either I misused the symbol language or you randomly didn't understand, seeing as you're an alt.

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Doesn't =/= mean not equal?

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@logiclancer: By the way you don't have a speck of proof to say that Gogeta Blue is stronger than Mastered Ultra Instinct.

You sound like you haven't even watched any of the episodes. Sigh* another baseless argument with no proof whatsoever...

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@chasekilleen: Why don't you go first and prove Mastered Ultra Instinct is stronger than Gogeta Blue?

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@logiclancer: I promise if you can find a convincing and legitimate proof from a credible source then I'll find it and prove to you that Mastered Ultra Instinct is stronger.

Gogeta can win endurance wise

But speed and power wise Ultra Instinct is unbeatable.

It's practically invincible.

But the downside is the limit of a mortal body using takes a huge toll for that person.

Gogeta can't even touch Goku whilst he is in Ultra Instinct mode.

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@logiclancer: Even Toriyama stated that Ultra Instinct is the most complex form ever.

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@chasekilleen: Alright then, let's do the scaling.

Jiren > SSBKKx20

It is said that twice the power levels will allow a fighter to completely ignore another's attacks. As shown scaling off SSJ2 Teen Gohan and the SSJs.

In other words,

Jiren = SSBx40+

Gogeta(Base) > SSB since he did way better against Broly.

SSJ Gogeta = 50xSSB+

MUI stomped Jiren, so

MUI = SSBx80+

SSJ2 Gogeta = SSBx100+

Gogeta doesn't really need Blue to beat MUI.

Feel free to disagree. But try your best to be polite and respectful this time.

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Son_of_Mori-jin

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@logiclancer: I promise if you can find a convincing and legitimate proof from a credible source then I'll find it and prove to you that Mastered Ultra Instinct is stronger.

Gogeta can win endurance wise

But speed and power wise Ultra Instinct is unbeatable.

It's practically invincible.

But the downside is the limit of a mortal body using takes a huge toll for that person.

Gogeta can't even touch Goku whilst he is in Ultra Instinct mode.

If he was so invincible why was he losing to LB jiren before the rage power up?

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@logiclancer: Ultra Instinct is said to be a form that even surpasses God of Destruction due to the fact that it's an incredibly hard technique to learn and master and none of the Gods have ever mastered it.

Another thing is that Beerus that Goku MUI has surpassed himself and every God's stood up and respected a mere mortal for attaining a form that even God's can't even reach.

Give me one thing that Gogeta has done that even remotely close to what MUI can do...

As far as I know Gogeta never showed anything impressive.

Whis never stated that Broly's power was in a God of Destruction's domain, thus we can conclude that he doesn't even come close to Beerus in terms of power wise.

Even after Broly turned into the Legendary Super Saiyan, Beerus never showed any signs of concern, fear or anything.

When Jiren released only a little bit of Ki, made Beerus and Goku sweat like a water fountain.

Meaning they know how strong Jiren really is even though he's heavily supressed.

When Broly released his full power Beerus didn't even care.

Jiren's feats was much more impressive than what Gogeta could do in that 30 minute screen on-time.

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@logiclancer: Actually Jiren limit breaker went toe to toe with Mastered Ultra Instinct.

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@son_of_mori-jin: try again, in episode 130 Goku dominated Jiren more when he was in limit breaker form.

Jiren only thrashed him once.

But ultimately Goku was the dominant one.

At chronological order

19:27 ui goku started to tear apart jiren

13:33 limit breaker jiren started to pound on ui goku

8:00 ui goku legitimately defeated limit breaker jiren.

5:28 ui goku trashed on limit breaker jiren

4:31 limit breaker jiren officially admitted his defeat

Episode: 130

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Son_of_Mori-jin

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@son_of_mori-jin: try again, in episode 130 Goku dominated Jiren more when he was in limit breaker form.

Jiren only thrashed him once.

But ultimately Goku was the dominant one.

At chronological order

19:27 ui goku started to tear apart jiren

13:33 limit breaker jiren started to pound on ui goku

8:00 ui goku legitimately defeated limit breaker jiren.

5:28 ui goku trashed on limit breaker jiren

4:31 limit breaker jiren officially admitted his defeat

Episode: 130

So if they're going toe to toe how can you say mui goku is nearly invincible?

I personally don't really watch the anime cause it's power scaling is trash for dramatic effect. Manga makes much more sense.

Beerus feat of fighting all the other GoD at once still pits him above goku imo

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@son_of_mori-jin: Goku never lost to Jiren.

It's because of Goku and his limits, because his body is not used to it and it literally tore down his body from the inside.

Because a mortal's body can't handle something that powerful and also his body is not used to it.

Just like how Goku has to train for every form in order to use it to its maximum efficiency and potential.

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Son_of_Mori-jin

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@son_of_mori-jin: Goku never lost to Jiren.

It's because of Goku and his limits, because his body is not used to it and it literally tore down his body from the inside.

Because a mortal's body can't handle something that powerful and also his body is not used to it.

Just like how Goku has to train for every form in order to use it to its maximum efficiency and potential.

Regardless if he does learn MUI he'll still be league below whis and other angels . and I stated manga beerus fought all GoD and is considered the most powerful

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MUI Goku if he finishes it quick

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@son_of_mori-jin: It just shows that Jiren when he broke his limit was on par or nearly on par with Goku MUI.

The manga of Super is the dumbest thing ever

You say that the anime is trash when Roshi is the first to attain Ultra Instinct.

Lol ok.

Because a mortal can just use an angel's technique just like a snap of a finger, ok that makes perfect sense doesn't it?

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@son_of_mori-jin:

Belmod is the most powerful lol...

Have you even read the manga?

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@son_of_mori-jin: There's no proof to say that Gogeta Blue is stronger, because MUI Goku is much faster and can dodge pretty much anything and Gogeta in the movie hasn't shown anything that's really impressive.

Unless there's more things to go on besides the movie, Ultra Instinct wins due to the fact that it's faster and stronger and it being a near perfect defence and offensive technique.

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Son_of_Mori-jin

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@son_of_mori-jin:

Belmod is the most powerful lol...

Have you even read the manga?

Clearly you didn't if you didn't see the battle royal btwn the gods. Everyone attacked beerus initially and he matched them then at the end it was him and the mouse GoD being the last 2

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@son_of_mori-jin: If Beerus had Ultra instinct then how come he sustained as much damage as Quintella (Mouse Of Destruction)

Belmod was the only God of Destruction to not sustain any injuries whatsoever within that GoD's little battle royale.

Belmod has been implied to be stronger both in the anime and manga.

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Son_of_Mori-jin

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@son_of_mori-jin: There's no proof to say that Gogeta Blue is stronger, because MUI Goku is much faster and can dodge pretty much anything and Gogeta in the movie hasn't shown anything that's really impressive.

Unless there's more things to go on besides the movie, Ultra Instinct wins due to the fact that it's faster and stronger and it being a near perfect defence and offensive technique.

You're wanking mui goku but most Dbs fans do hence why I rarely debate it

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@son_of_mori-jin: At least I'm basing it off of the anime.

You're showing no proof whatsoever and using your feelings, you have the gall to tell me that I'm overhyping MUI.

And I dare you to quote me from the movie/Toriyama or Toyotaro/any legitimate proof from a credible source to say that Broly and Gogeta was on Beerus' level or even Gogeta remotely on par with Beerus.

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@logiclancer: Ultra Instinct is said to be a form that even surpasses God of Destruction due to the fact that it's an incredibly hard technique to learn and master and none of the Gods have ever mastered it.

Not UI Omen. MUI. But yeah.

Another thing is that Beerus that Goku MUI has surpassed himself and every God's stood up and respected a mere mortal for attaining a form that even God's can't even reach.

They stood up for UI Omen 2. And it's not a form. It's a technique. They respect him for attaing a technique they cannot attain.

Give me one thing that Gogeta has done that even remotely close to what MUI can do...

Being better than SSBs in base form.

As far as I know Gogeta never showed anything impressive.

That's your opinion. So I guess I can't change your mind about it.

Whis never stated that Broly's power was in a God of Destruction's domain, thus we can conclude that he doesn't even come close to Beerus in terms of power wise.

Not really. LSSJ Broly > SSJ Gogeta

SSJ Gogeta = 50 x Base Gogeta

Base Gogeta > SSB

SSJ Gogeta > 50 x SSB

SSBKKx20/SSBE = 20 x SSB

You only need 2x the power to curbstomp someone, as proven by SSJ2 and SSJ, so Super Gogeta can curbstomp SSBKKx20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta just like non-LB Jiren.

Even after Broly turned into the Legendary Super Saiyan, Beerus never showed any signs of concern, fear or anything.

Beerus was excited by SSG Goku(BoG).

I guess SSG Goku(BoG) >> SSB Gogeta then.

When Jiren released only a little bit of Ki, made Beerus and Goku sweat like a water fountain.

Of course they did. Jiren was much stronger than Goku, who Beerus' life depends on.

Meaning they know how strong Jiren really is even though he's heavily supressed.

On the basis of what?

When Broly released his full power Beerus didn't even care.

I already debunked this.

Jiren's feats was much more impressive than what Gogeta could do in that 30 minute screen on-time.

I won't debunk your opinion.

@logiclancer: Actually Jiren limit breaker went toe to toe with Mastered Ultra Instinct.

I was referring to normal Jiren.

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@logiclancer: Sigh still no evidence...
Where's your evidence from a credible source??

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@logiclancer: No proof = you can't prove that Broly is on Beerus' level...

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@logiclancer: You haven't given me one example yet.

All you saying "i dEbUnKeD ThIs AnD tHiS"

I have given plenty of examples, when you have not given me one thing.

Not one evidence.

I am talking about Jiren as a whole, not supressed Jiren, not Jiren when he started to get serious, nor solely his Limit Breaker form.

I am talking Jiren, which includes all of his powers...

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@logiclancer: Whis when Jiren was supressed literally, word by word, said: "I dare say, like a God of Destruction he is one that has reached that state, perhaps even surpassing it."

It's crystal clear!!

For a person that doesn't watch Dragon Ball, you really shouldn't talk about things if you have no clue what you are on about...

Loading Video...

Go to 3:20

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Goku

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@logiclancer: Sigh still no evidence...

Where's your evidence from a credible source??

@logiclancer: No proof = you can't prove that Broly is on Beerus' level...

I don't need to. I just proved that Super Gogeta is on Normal Jiren's level, and SSB is crazy compared to SSJ, so even if MUI curb-stomps Normal Jiren, Gogeta Blue can beat him.

Do I need to repeat my proof?

SSJ2 is 2x stronger than SSJ. SSJ2 Teen Gohan one-shot Cell Jrs, who can tangle with SSJ+ level fighters like SSJA Vegeta.

Therefore SSJ2s can one-shot SSJ level fighters.

They have 2x the PL, so let's say you need twice the PL to curbstomp someone.

Now,

Normal Jiren's best feat is curbstomping SSBKKx20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta along with Android 17, who should be a non-factor.

Numbers don't equal Power Levels, so let's say Jiren is twice as strong as SSBKKx20.

Jiren = 40 x SSB

Now, Base Gogeta is stronger than the SSBs.

Base Gogeta > SSB

SSJ = 50x

SSJ Gogeta > 50 x SSB

Super Gogeta is stronger than base Jiren. MUI Goku stomped Base Jiren, so I'll 2x him.

MUI Goku = 80 x SSB

SSJ2 Gogeta > 100 x SSB

@logiclancer: You haven't given me one example yet.

All you saying "i dEbUnKeD ThIs AnD tHiS"

I have given plenty of examples, when you have not given me one thing.

I've debunked those plenty 'examples'. Those are your view on the DBS narrative and Dialogue, which are < Power Scaling, which I've provided.

Not one evidence.

I am talking about Jiren as a whole, not supressed Jiren, not Jiren when he started to get serious, nor solelty his Limit Breaker form.

I am talking Jiren, which includes all of his powers...

Composite Jiren > Beerus. Thanks for pointing out the obvious. SSJ2 Gogeta > MUI > Beerus too, so I don't see the point.

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@chasekilleen: And that does... what? He surpassed a GoD. Not all GoDs are equal. Look at Toppo.

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@logiclancer: Have you seen the anime?

It's said that he surpassed Belmod and in the Manga they said that Jiren's fighting level is beyond Belmod and Belmod has been implied in both the manga and anime to be stronger than Beerus.

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@logiclancer: LOL power levels and multipliers are not relevant in Super...

You using multipliers is not evidence...

Stop giving excuses already. I am looking for quotes/links/articles... Evidence...

Not your multiplications...

Are you perhaps using those multipliers to compete in your maths tournament in school or something?? ????

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@logiclancer: Give me examples from the anime/manga/movie showing and saying that Gogeta is on Beerus' level...
Give me scans/links/clips/aricles to even remotely compare that Broly/Gogeta is on Beerus' level.
Show me a clip that Gogeta did, that's on par with MIU Goku...
Breaking dimensions don't count since Super Buu did that with relative ease two times and Gotenks did that too.

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@chasekilleen said:

@logiclancer: Have you seen the anime?

It's said that he surpassed Belmod and in the Manga they said that Jiren's fighting level is beyond Belmod and Belmod has been implied in both the manga and anime to be stronger than Beerus.

Give me a link to those implications.

@chasekilleen said:

@logiclancer: LOL power levels and times are not relevant in Super...

You using multipliers is not evidence...

Actually, they are evidence. Prove that they are not.

Stop giving excuses already. I am looking for quotes/links/articles... Evidence...

Alright then. Shin stated that Vegito Blue surpassed Beerus(similar to MUI) in the manga, which you're using. In a 1995 issue of Weekly shounen Jump, it's said that Gogeta can defeat Vegito in a fight that lasted less than 30 mins, while Vegito lasts longer.

Post-TOP >>> Black Arc, since Hypothetical Post-ToP Vegito > Kefla > Black arc Vegito.

Not your multiplications...

Are you perhaps using those multipliers to compete in your maths tournament in school or something?? ????

I considered reporting to the mods but dismissed it as you being rude and toxic.

Edit- Actually, I'll just flag you now and walk away.

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@logiclancer: Ok, cut your BS.
Shin said that Vegito Blue has surpassed Beerus, but Kai-o-Shin never even saw Beerus in a fight and definitely never seen Beerus at 100% before.
Also Mastered SSJ Blue is on par with Vegito Blue, proven how Goku went on par with Fused Zamasu after Vegito's defusion...

Beerus one hit KO'ED Vegeta when he challenged Beerus in his Mastered SSJ Blue and he did it with relative ease...

Try again with a better and much convincing example.

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@logiclancer: I never ever said Vegito did I???

I only said there's no proof whatsoever to prove that Gogeta was on Beerus' level, let alone Goku in his MUI level.

Can you please stop beating around the bush already??

You're just digging your own grave further further.

If you can't find any conclusive evidence, fine.

But don't make things up and use this example and this example as an excuse...

I can easily counter everything you throw at me with contradictions literally everywhere in the later manga chapters or from other media.

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@logiclancer:

Anime:

In the anime, he was implied by Whis that Belmod is stronger than Beerus.

Manga:

Belmod is able to damage all of the Gods of Destruction by capturing them in Imprisonment Balls and attacking with Energy Cards. When he is attacked by Liqueur's Tail Energy Cannon Barrage, Belmod takes no damage from the assault. When the match comes to an end, it is revealed that Belmod faked being knocked down and had taken no damage over the course of the match. Toppo states that, based on combat skill alone, even Belmod is weaker than Jiren.