MUI Goku vs SSB Gogeta

Going with Goku. A Super Sayain Blue Gogeta, if I understand it right, is pretty much SSB Goku+Vegeta, so 2x SSB. By this line on logic, MUI would utterly curbstomp. MUI is a good bit above UI, which is far above SSBKKX20, which is 10x SSBKKX2

So, by your reasoning MUI is not even needed, just regular SKKx10 would defeat SSB Gogeta?

@rukelnikovftw: yes

Well, Zamasu's fight kinda disagrees with your theory

@rukelnikovftw: SSB Vegito >>>>>>>>>>>> SSB Gogeta. Dance fusion is A + B, potara is A x B.

So, if you have two characters (Goku and Vegeta) with a power level of 1,000,000 (lowball of course) the results would be: A + B = 2,000,000 and A x B = 1,000,000,000,000. That's a difference of 500,000.

@drpepperman: so sorry, but that’s not right my friend.

Not that vegeto is stronget than gogeta or not.

However, it’s stated in DBZ by Goku that 30 mins of them fusing in SSj 1 is enough for fat Buu, while he himself in super saiyan 3 wasn’t enough to defeat him.

If super saiyan 2 is a 2x multiplier for ssj1, and ssj3 is 4x ssj2 then ssj3 is 8x ssj1

And I believe that goku’s ssj1 must be at the very very least twice as strong as goten’s and trunks’ ssj1 right?

And piccolo stated that gotenks is much stronger than their sums of powers.

So it’s definitely not A+B... I would estimate A+B x5 or you know, 10 times each individual’s power.

However, I believe you are right that vegeto is stronger since vados stated that potara fusion = 10s of times the sum of the power.

We don't specifically know the fusion multiplier for either the Fusion Dance or the Potara earrings, but from context it seems to be suggested that the Potara earrings are greater, mostly because of Vados statement that it was tens of times stronger. Fusion Dance has only ever been stated to be greater than the sum of their power. So while the Fusion Dance multiplier is exponential, we do not know to what degree.

So since we don't know the actual numbers, let's put together some theoretical lowballs.

SSB Goku goes to x20 with Kaio Ken then at least twice as strong with UI and then at least twice as strong than that with MUI. So minimum MUI is 80 times stronger than SSB. Give or take some growth during the ToP (whether or not you consider those zenkais or not) that's a good minimum value to use.

As for the Fusion Dance, we must take into context the comparison of SS3 versus the Fusion Dance, both in the Buu saga and in the movie Fusion Reborn. SS3 Goku wasn't capable of matching Janemba and was probably even with Fat Buu (relatively speaking). SS3 Gotenks on the other hand was definitely even or even a little superior than Super Buu, who was definitely stronger than Fat Buu. Since we know Goku's SS is at least near SS2 in comparison to Goten and Trunks SS because of the Perfect Super Saiyan training, let's just round up to Goku being twice as strong then Goten and Trunks.

So, SS3 Goku would equal about (SS Goten + SS Trunks) * 8, minimum. We have no context to see, but let's assume Super Buu is minimum twice as strong as Fat Buu. That would put Super Buu at SS3 Goku x 2, or (SS Goten + SS Trunks) * 16. So, for two Super Saiyans to merge and reach the level of Super Buu at their level, Goten and Trunk's Fusion Dance minimum multiplier must be 16.

That would put SSB Gogeta at bare minimum (SSB Goku + SSB Vegeta) * 16. This matches with other ranges estimated for Fusion Dance before. For instance, a statement listed the Fusion fighter as "dozens of times" stronger, so this fits in with that narrative as well. Now, bare minimum, assuming Goku and Vegeta are even at this point (which face it they're probably not) ends up with a fighter 32 times stronger than SSB, minimum. And given that this Fusion is on a 30 minute time limit and probably shorter due to power consumption, this fight most likely goes to MUI Goku.

However I must stress that this is bare minimum. Context has always shown that Fusion is a ridiculous multiplier. I mean, SS Gogeta from Fusion Reborn was so powerful he destroyed Janemba in a single move, whereas SS3 Goku struggled to survive against him. SS4 Gogeta was able to toy with Omega Shenron where as two SS4's before couldn't tangle with him. And the range of the Fusion dance goes to at least 96x, given the dozens statement. So that in mind, the range of SSB Gogeta could go as high as 192x SSB, which would be twice as strong as MUI's minimum. Of course, the MUI maximum is undefined, so we don't know quite how strong the GoDs are and the context for most of the feats in the ToP.

Not to mention MUI Goku has a time limit of his own. That form lasted a few minutes max before Goku almost died in the transition back. Fusion is pretty limited, but not quite THAT limited.

So final verdict? While I firmly believe the Fusion Dance is probably stronger than MUI, ultimately it comes down to a time limit rather then actual power, as both are strong enough to deal with each other for a short time. But MUI Goku will run out first before SSB Gogeta does, so I'll pick them for the final win.

@zoldycklogic: Not only that but there's also a mysterious rivalry boost with Potara Fusion.

I think it got changed to an "emotional attachment"(?) boost since Caulifla and Kale were not rivals in the least.

According the movie spoilers

SPOILERS

Ssb gogeta while fighting broly is able to bust out of reality and break into another dimension, where he continues fighting.

@chaos239: broly is also >Beerus

So ya.

Gogeta probably curbs

@scotchbear: Well Jiren > Beerus so obviously Broly > Beerus

@chaos239: idk if broly>jiren

It says frieza tanks ssj broly for an hour or more.

Jiren casually one shot frieza

Gogeta should beat MUI Goku. Dragon ball has always made fusions more power than transformations.

This is my opinion, but the result of fusion, in a weaker form, should be more powerful than any one of the fusioned characters at their max.

For example, Base Vegeto was massively more powerful than SSJ3 Goku. I think the same reasoning applies here.

After reading the Broly movie spoilers Gogeta should stomp.

@scotchbear: @chaos239: Read the spoilers carefully; Goku said that Broly might be stronger than Beerus, not a statement.

https://www.narutoforums.org/threads/dragon-ball-super-broly-summary-impressions.1152483/

Goku then goes on to say that Broly is an incredible fighter and that he might even be stronger than Beerus.

At most this would mean Broly is comparable to him.

@visionary-:

Ssj3 was getting stomped by Buu before he absorbed Gohan.

Vegeto was doing damage To Buuhan.

Fusions are in Whole Another Level.

@trask10100: The Elder Kai in DBZ said that the Potara Fusion is outright superior to the Fusion Dance. What's more, SSB Gogeta would not benefit from further power increase from the rival boost from the Potara.

It is further confirmed by Daizenshuu #7: "To use them, the two people who will merge simply have to each take one of the two earrings and put in on their left or right ear, respectively. Furthermore, after merging the power is greater than with Fusion."

Potara is confirmed to be significantly superior to Fusion Dance in power.

Potara was also confirmed to have no time limit yet that's clearly no longer the case anymore. It's clear the writers don't care about the OG manga continuity.

@gxrevs06: Yes, so that part is ret-conned but not the rest of the information regarding Potara's power.

You could be right that the writers don't care. Vegito could still re-appear in DBS and defuse based on the fact that the fusion is too powerful rather than having a time limit.

@visionary-: It's a filler but what about base Vegetto blast a half of Merged Zamasu away? Something a normal SSB Goku and Vegeta couldn't do.

SSB Gogeta - > MUI, all day lol

MUI Goku for me

Gogeta destroys mui Goku,he doesn't even need blue. Even lssj2 Kefla was comparable to UI goku power wise,and her fusees weren't even ssj3 tier at them

How can Goku beat his own fusion?

Her fusees weren't SSJ3 tier? Kale on here own was ragdolling SSJB goku

Lss2 kefla being comparable to UI goku is irrelevant. This is MUI, far superior to UI omen.

@standardized: Kale later couldn't beat SSJG Goku. Obviously, ssjb Goku was not going all out. And caulifla is SSJ2. Goku and Vegeta are far above them and their fusion can go a few levels higher.

And we don't know exactly how much stronger MUI is over UI omen.

MUI Goku lasted a few mins and still got tagged by Jiren, SSB Gogeta S.T.O.M.P.E.D. Broly. Straight rekt'd his ass,AND his form lasts longer than MUI, and ya'll honestly think MUI would stomp SSB Gogeta?? Wtf? Lmaoooo. SSB Gogeta would slap the lint outta MUI Goku's pockets. Go watch the movie, scrubs??

@standardized: Goku held back there,his SSG easily handled her controlled berserker state.

Base gogeta is far stronger than SSB Goku or Vegeta or ssj Kefla judging from his fusees

SSJ gogeta would ragdoll MUI goku

Goku throughout the TOP was getting stronger.

Again this kinda doesn't matter because that wasn't MUI nor was it the strongest version of Omen.

@standardized: On the contrary, Goku was pretty drained while fighting the Saiyan girls. So Kale at best is equal to God Goku.

That makes Gogeta way superior to Kefla just based on the max power of Goku and Vegeta. (I'd say SSJ Gogeta is superior to SSJ2 Kefla but that is debatable). Now Gogeta Blue is several levels above that.

You people have near 0 reading or story telling comprehension. All you think in terms of is VS. battles. If you believe Jiren > Beerus or Broly > Beerus you are a fool. That is what a writer injects to cause further hype to eventually see this character go all out. Goku has absolutely 0 idea what a 100% Beerus looks like and he never said Broly was stronger. He said Broly might be stronger.

You think the guy that was chilling while babysitting that showed 0 care in the world about the energy level Broly was putting out is surpassed? VS. topic mentality on all of you.

Jiren is superior to Broly by many accounts, so using Broly as an example isn't really making your point. As to who I think would win between SSJB-G and MUI Goku... hmmm. I'm slightly leaning with Goku. But I could definitely see Gogeta pulling some W's

Anyone who thinks MUI Goku doesn't win this must be trolling. Broly has nowhere near as good tanking feats as Jiren, yet MUI Goku could damage him like nothing. Gogeta also has nowhere near as good tanking feats to prove that he handle MUI Goku's strikes

To those who thinks SSB Gogeta wins this, how is the delusion dimension treating you?

Recent information released in occurrence with Super: Broly is that the Fusion Dance and Potara are equivalent, but have different advantages and disadvantages.

-If Vegito (from the Majin Buu Saga) were to fight Gogeta (from Fusion Reborn), Vegito would win if the fight was long, but would lose a short battle.

-Gogeta and Vegito are equally-matched ultimate trump cards.

Source

Think of the Fusion Dance as a engine with a nitro, while Potara is a high-end engine. The nitro engine may overpower the high-end engine at first, but will eventually burn itself out.

Minor Spoiler

Major Spoiler

Gogeta blitzes and one shots. Him and Broly’s clashes were literally ripping entire dimensions to pieces and caused the very fabric of reality to warp. Jiren and MUI didn’t do anything anywhere near that impressive. Jiren’s punch on Goku barely caused a small crater in the floor and wasn’t enough to bust the world of void dimension or the TOP spiral. Meanwhile, Gogeta and Broly are casually slapping dimensions around like it is no big deal

@gxrevs06:

and wasn’t enough to bust the world of void dimension

We can't compare the world of void dimensions to the ones that Broly and Gogeta destroyed.

or the TOP spiral.

Even SSG Goku did more than that with his punches against Beerus.

Jiren and MUI didn’t do anything anywhere near that impressive

World of Void is a different reality than U7. We don't know how it's structure compares to that of U7.

Meanwhile, Gogeta and Broly are casually slapping dimensions around like it is no big deal

How big are these dimensions though?

All of you seem extremely sure about yourselves, but there really isn't enough information to say for sure.

I would say MUI Goku would be the more skilled one and be harder to hit, but SSB Gogeta probably has more raw power, but this is just pure speculation.

Movie spoilers.

Sorry, it was too perfect not to say.

This is where I'm at pretty much.

@gxrevs06: Oh Wooow! Gogeta and Broly made a small rip in reality? That's SOOOO impressive, despite Gotenks being able to do the exact same thing... I'm still looking for durability feats that prove that Gogeta won't get one shot by MUI.

@gohandorado: Lets be honest, Buu and Gotenks made a hole to an adjacent, previously connected location. They reopened the door from the Room of Spirit and Time to Kami's Lookout by force.

Have you not seen the movie and saw where they went when SSJ Gogeta and SSJ Broly clashed?

The best durability feat that I could find was SSJ Gogeta taking several solid hits to his face by Full-Power(LSSJ) Broly before he went SSB. Goku does insinuate that Broly is at least comparable to Beerus, so that isn't anything to sneeze at.

Edit:

Power estimate comparison with spoilers:

SSJ Gogeta should be comparable to SSB Goku performing either a 40x-50x Kaioken. SSB Gogeta would be well above that.

Gogeta does not have superior raw power if he couldn't easily put LSSJ Broly down for the count. As SSJ, Broly couldn't defeat Golden Frieza easily and did less damage to him than GoD Toppo did, and Legendary Super Saiyan isn't that much of a significant powerup to that. Gogeta's only feat is beating Broly, he does not have any other external feats or scalings that matches the hype that the hefty majority of the fanbase gave him. MUI Goku rolls him and it isn't close.

@noobsnowman:

Gogeta does not have superior raw power if he couldn't easily put LSSJ Broly down for the count.

UI Goku couldn't put Jiren down for the count easily either. In the manga he outright lost.

As SSJ, Broly couldn't defeat Golden Frieza easily and did less damage to him than GoD Toppo did, and Legendary Super Saiyan isn't that much of a significant powerup to that.

Initial ssj Broly was a bit weaker than ssj Gogeta, and full power ssj Broly was a bit weaker than SSB Gogeta, so the difference between his initial ssj and full power ssj is almost as much as the difference between ssj and ssb for Gogeta.

Gogeta's only feat is beating Broly, he does not have any other external feats or scalings that matches the hype that the hefty majority of the fanbase gave him. MUI Goku rolls him and it isn't close.

There are multiple sources implying Broly is the strongest enemy they ever faced, and while I agree feat wise Jiren would probably beat Broly, MUI Goku clearly had trouble with Jiren, while SSB Gogeta didn't even let Broly get a blow off on him. You could argue UI Goku wins, but saying it wouldn't be close is going too far. Not because it's necessarily wrong, but because there just isn't enough evidence to prove it yet.

@alextheboss:

UI Goku couldn't put Jiren down for the count easily either. In the manga he outright lost.

I am referring to the anime. If this is the manga, then Gogeta's chances of winning is significantly higher. To be fair, in the manga Goku lost not because of Jiren but because he was slowly losing power. Initially, Jiren was clearly losing.

Sure, MUI Goku couldn't put Jiren down easily, but I have Jiren as significantly superior to Broly on the merit of having better feats. I doubt Broly is superior to even FP Jiren, the latter who has accolades that confirms him to at least be GoD level, while Goku's statement on Broly is mere speculation that I argue to hold no merit.

Initial ssj Broly was a bit weaker than ssj Gogeta, and full power ssj Broly was a bit weaker than SSB Gogeta, so the difference between his initial ssj and full power ssj is almost as much as the difference between ssj and ssb for Gogeta.

A bit weaker? The fight between SSB Gogeta and LSSJ Broly isn't close at all. Sure, it wasn't an outright stomp, but the only reason it isn't is due to Broly's durability. In terms of power and H2H abilities, Gogeta completely outclassed Broly.

SSJ Broly being slightly inferior to SSJ Gogeta dosen't do him any merit because Gogeta lacks feats or external scalings to justify his power, unlike someone else like Vegito who at least has scaling from Kefla. Therefore, we look into other showings such as struggling with defeating Golden Frieza and failing to convert his power advantage against 2 SSBs as a testimony of his ability - and quite frankly, is pretty underwhelming. Legendary Super Saiyan is not a godly power up, we seen from the ToP that it does not even surpass a SSJ3, at least in the anime. Compare that to godly transformations such as SSG or SSB and logically LSSJ isn't a significant powerup compared to SSJ.

In the manga, I will admit that LSSJ is significantly more powerful, though it is clear that it is still quite a bit inferior to MSSB.

There are multiple sources implying Broly is the strongest enemy they ever faced, and while I agree feat wise Jiren would probably beat Broly, MUI Goku clearly had trouble with Jiren, while SSB Gogeta didn't even let Broly get a blow off on him. You could argue UI Goku wins, but saying it wouldn't be close is going too far. Not because it's necessarily wrong, but because there just isn't enough evidence to prove it yet.

Perhaps, but we have not seen Goku and Vegeta access their strongest forms and jumped straight to fusion. I can see the possibility of Broly being the strongest adversary if its the manga, given that Blue is Goku's strongest form that he can consciously access. However, those sources are far too inconsistent if we use the anime, given that we didn't see Goku and Vegeta use their full strength individually prior to fusing. Furthermore, unlike Kefla or Jiren, Broly's power was not enough to push Goku to extreme levels of danger given that Goku did not use UI, which leaves me skeptical of Broly's true strength.

This is a joke right? MUI Goku vs a fusion of Goku and Vegeta? Gogeta slaps Goku to a coma

Are you serious? you might be right but the way you proved it is far from sense.

It's like saying a fusion between you and your friend when you were 14 years old VS you now.

UI is leagues above SSB Goku. So is Gogeta. I am not saying MUI is stronger, I am just saying you can't prove that Gogeta is stronger because is a fusion of his opponent and somebody equally as powerful. Since he is facing the ultimate form of his opponent, while he has access to a lower form