@anomalous: Totsuka blade is NLF. It has only worked against orochimaru.
NLF would be saying something like "Totsuka can 1 shot anything it touches and Yata is 100% unbreakable". It's not NLF to say an ability that has only been used a couple times (he beat Nagato with it too) can also be used against other characters of similar speed/durability.
While tsunade is easily busts sasuke around ( MS sasuke doesnt even have a complete susanoo)
Sasuke does have a complete susanoo though. He doesn't have a full body / perfect susanoo, but there are no feats that make it seem like simply having legs makes susanoo any more durable. Just more mobile. Either way, Tsunade hasn't broken through any kind of susanoo so it's a bit ridiculous to say she "easily busts" Sasuke's.
Jiraiya takes the time to go into sage mode and hard counter all sharigan abilities.
1. He won't be able to take the time after Orochimaru gets incapped within a few seconds of the fight starting... He's fallen for genjutsu or gotten blitzed literally every time he's fought an Uchiha.
2. How does sage mode "hard counter all sharingan abilities"? That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a minute.
They could win, but they'd have to fight out of character and start the fight bloodlusted in their most powerful forms or else they lose way before Jiraiya is in sage mode.
Sasuke does have a complete susanoo though. He doesn't have a full body / perfect susanoo, but there are no feats that make it seem like simply having legs makes susanoo any more durable. Just more mobile. Either way, Tsunade hasn't broken through any kind of susanoo so it's a bit ridiculous to say she "easily busts" Sasuke's.
No, just ribcages are not complete susanoo. This is his MS form, not EMS.
Tsunade hasn't broken through any kind of susanoo so it's a bit ridiculous to say she "easily busts" Sasuke's
She has broken through Madara's susanoo.
Here's a scan of her literally breaking it
How does sage mode "hard counter all sharingan abilities"? That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a minute.
Sage mode is a hard counter for all sharingan abilites
Heres why: It gives you greaters sensory abilites than the sharingan, it empowers your chakra control and accesibility and amps you so much more physically. The frog sage mode that jiraiya has, is > most sharingan users
On top of this, itachi and sasuke do not have nowhere near the same amount of chakra as the sannin do.
Tsunade will outlast everyone here, Jiraiya has incredible chakra, and orochimaru is an amazing tactician.
Do you think MS sasuke can take on 5 susanoo madara clones?
Sasuke does have a complete susanoo though. He doesn't have a full body / perfect susanoo, but there are no feats that make it seem like simply having legs makes susanoo any more durable. Just more mobile. Either way, Tsunade hasn't broken through any kind of susanoo so it's a bit ridiculous to say she "easily busts" Sasuke's.
No, just ribcages are not complete susanoo. This is his MS form, not EMS.
The first fight he had EMS was against Kabuto. This is still MS
Sage mode is a hard counter for all sharingan abilites
Heres why:
1. It gives you greaters sensory abilites than the sharingan,
2.it empowers your chakra control and accesibility
3. amps you so much more physically.
1. ehh in terms of actually sensing chakra when you don't know where the opponent is, yes. But Sharingan has better precog feats. Also, I wouldn't just assume that Jiraiya's sensory ability is the same as Naruto's since he has a less refined sage mode. Pain was still able to sneak up on him while he wasn't looking.
2. Where did you get that from? Sounds made up
3. True. It's not a speed buff though and wouldn't enable Jiraiya to blitz them. If Itachi/Sasuke took a hit in base from sage mode Jiraiya then it's probable that he could 1 shot them, but again he doesn't have the speed feats to make it happen.
None of these points explain how sage mode counters:
Genjutsu (it's doubtful his sensing is strong enough to fight them without vision and he has an anti-feat to back that up)
On top of this, itachi and sasuke do not have nowhere near the same amount of chakra as the sannin do.
This would not be a battle of attrition, but what makes you think Jiraiya and Orochimaru have an extraordinary amount of chakra? Tsunade, sure, because of her Senju heritage. And people always love to say "Itachi has low chakra gg" as a cop out when they can't think of any other decent argument, but how exactly are you quantifying that? When he fought Sasuke he used
A 3 layer deep basic genjutsu
Shuriken clones
Shadow clone
Tsukuyomi
Fireball twice
Amaterasu twice
Complete susanoo for a couple minutes
idk. Doesn't seem that bad compared to most other fights
@anomalous: All your points i have already countered.
I can assure you Madara's ribcage susanoo is > sasukes MS.
That scan you brought up of sasuke using that form of Susanoo, remember what happened directly after that fight? He used up so much chakra he literally went blind and had no reserves left.
The Duo are not outlasting the sannin.
As for the one statement you said i made up regarding how Sage mode does not help your chakra control?
In order to even get sage mode you need perfect chakra control
Also, all fights whether it be naruto or even IRL are fights of attrition. Doesn't matter how good you are, if you gas out you're done.
I think this fight would be more easy to judge if OP clarifies on the rules.
Could you make this battle more specific? Is this Edo itachi, healthy itachi, sick itachi? MS sasuke during danzo fight, MS sasuke during Bee fight, MS sasuke when first activated?
I can assure you Madara's ribcage susanoo is > sasukes MS.
That scan you brought up of sasuke using that form of Susanoo, remember what happened directly after that fight? He used up so much chakra he literally went blind and had no reserves left.
You're ignoring the fact that he had previously fought the 5 Kage though... Bare in mind, the Raikage > Anyone on the Sannin.
The Duo are not outlasting the sannin.
They are, rather easily tbh.
As for the one statement you said i made up regarding how Sage mode does not help your chakra control?
In order to even get sage mode you need perfect chakra control
Also, all fights whether it be naruto or even IRL are fights of attrition. Doesn't matter how good you are, if you gas out you're done.
2 Uchiha's in their prime age > 3 old Shinobi
I think this fight would be more easy to judge if OP clarifies on the rules.
Could you make this battle more specific? Is this Edo itachi, healthy itachi, sick itachi? MS sasuke during danzo fight, MS sasuke during Bee fight, MS sasuke when first activated?
Add some stipulations etc.
I know you're a good Naruto debater, do you have any thoughts on this thread?
@rxdking: You haven't countered any of my points lol. No offense but it's clear you lack basic understanding of the series so I'm not going to keep going with this. It'll be my last reply
That scan you brought up of sasuke using that form of Susanoo, remember what happened directly after that fight? He used up so much chakra he literally went blind and had no reserves left.
That's not how it works. Without EMS, anyone who uses MS abilities will start to go blind. It has nothing to do with running out of chakra.
Also, all fights whether it be naruto or even IRL are fights of attrition.
Meh. If a boxer wins a fight in the first round then their low, 8 round stamina was irrelevant. They have to be fighting someone who is equally as fast/strong/etc for endurance to be the deciding factor.
I can assure you Madara's ribcage susanoo is > sasukes MS.
That scan you brought up of sasuke using that form of Susanoo, remember what happened directly after that fight? He used up so much chakra he literally went blind and had no reserves left.
You're ignoring the fact that he had previously fought the 5 Kage though... Bare in mind, the Raikage > Anyone on the Sannin.
The Duo are not outlasting the sannin.
They are, rather easily tbh.
As for the one statement you said i made up regarding how Sage mode does not help your chakra control?
In order to even get sage mode you need perfect chakra control
Also, all fights whether it be naruto or even IRL are fights of attrition. Doesn't matter how good you are, if you gas out you're done.
2 Uchiha's in their prime age > 3 old Shinobi
I think this fight would be more easy to judge if OP clarifies on the rules.
Could you make this battle more specific? Is this Edo itachi, healthy itachi, sick itachi? MS sasuke during danzo fight, MS sasuke during Bee fight, MS sasuke when first activated?
Add some stipulations etc.
I know you're a good Naruto debater, do you have any thoughts on this thread?
You're ignoring the fact that he had previously fought the 5 Kage though... Bare in mind, the Raikage > Anyone on the Sannin.
And then obito transported him and karin healed him to full.
They are, rather easily tbh.
Statement, no feats or facts behind this, purely opinionated.
2 Uchiha's in their prime age > 3 old Shinobi
Sasuke was in his prime as an adult, not a teen. Itachi literally dying from a disease. How is that prime age?
"Old shinobi" that fought 2 great ninja wars and survived madara?
I can assure you Madara's ribcage susanoo is > sasukes MS.
That scan you brought up of sasuke using that form of Susanoo, remember what happened directly after that fight? He used up so much chakra he literally went blind and had no reserves left.
You're ignoring the fact that he had previously fought the 5 Kage though... Bare in mind, the Raikage > Anyone on the Sannin.
The Duo are not outlasting the sannin.
They are, rather easily tbh.
As for the one statement you said i made up regarding how Sage mode does not help your chakra control?
In order to even get sage mode you need perfect chakra control
Also, all fights whether it be naruto or even IRL are fights of attrition. Doesn't matter how good you are, if you gas out you're done.
2 Uchiha's in their prime age > 3 old Shinobi
I think this fight would be more easy to judge if OP clarifies on the rules.
Could you make this battle more specific? Is this Edo itachi, healthy itachi, sick itachi? MS sasuke during danzo fight, MS sasuke during Bee fight, MS sasuke when first activated?
Add some stipulations etc.
I know you're a good Naruto debater, do you have any thoughts on this thread?
You're ignoring the fact that he had previously fought the 5 Kage though... Bare in mind, the Raikage > Anyone on the Sannin.
And then obito transported him and karin healed him to full.
Which doesn't undo the eye usage, which was his main issue and subsequent blindness.
They are, rather easily tbh.
Statement, no feats or facts behind this, purely opinionated.
It's my opinion that two people in their prime age are going to have more endurance and energy than 3 people that are extremely old, with one looking like this
2 Uchiha's in their prime age > 3 old Shinobi
Sasuke was in his prime as an adult, not a teen. Itachi literally dying from a disease. How is that prime age?
"Old shinobi" that fought 2 great ninja wars and survived madara?
Are you able to read? "Prime age" not power. And until the OP states otherwise this is healthy Itachi so faulty argument.
@rxdking: This would be a good fight, but I think I'm leaning Sanin. Itachi is arguably the most dangerous out of anyone here, but without being edo he is kind of limited, and Sasuke, while being Sanin tier, is relatively new with his MS powers at this point. Tsunade is the weakest link on her team, but she is strong enough to be a threat and has shown she could break Madara's susanoo, so she should be able to crack the Uchiha team's hear as well. Orochimaru is a major threat with his versatility and ability to create new bodies to avoid amaterasu damage, and reanimation jutsu which hasn't been limited. Jiraiya's sage mode puts him at least on par with Itachi, if not above, and has genjutsu of his own with mom and pop. So all together I think the Sanin take a majority, but Itachi's genjutsu and susanoo with totska blade could possibly give his team some victories.
Once again, i've already countered your points. Now you're resulting to meming and insults; no point to do that.
As for "Prime age" Prime age= Prime power dude....... Mike Tyson was his strongest at 21. This was his Prime age and power. After 21, he started falling off fast.
You said a litany of incorrect things there my friend. Let me correct you and tell you who would win and why.
It's empty because Jiraiya has no feats to say he could beat Kisame let alone both Kisame and Itachi.
That is a fallacy because we should be more inclined to believe Itachi rather than a fan on a forum. The thing is you have a lack of evidence on your end to make that assessment. Itachi apparently has reason to believe it despite being an ally. A lack of feats isn't a reasonable enough determination of the strength of one combatant over another. Kisame also stated that Jiraiya was far more powerful than he was and Kisame battled it out with Killer B and Guy in the Seventh Gate Guy. I'm pretty sure that Kisame knows his limitations and what he thinks he's capable of and who he thinks is more powerful than himself.
.......................Orochimaru was having fun with SHIPPUDEN 4 tailed Naruto who's >>>>> 4 Tails Pre-Shippuden Naruto, Orochimaru has been fodderized by Itachi numerous times, hence why Orochimaru decided to go after Sasuke instead of Itachi. The context of that fight is Jiraiya receiving a life threatening injury from Pre-Shippuden 4 tailed Naruto...
I still haven't an idea why people still try to use the injury that Jiraiya sustained against 4 Tails Naruto as a knock against Jiraiya. He clearly wasn't intending to hurt Naruto or even fight him. It's an extremely poor argument to use in any context against Jiraiya. It's not indicative of anything.
"If so we have no more need to talk. Plenty of people below Jiraiya have fought Sasuke or itachi. Kakashi has more speed feats then jiraiya so kakashi>jiraiaya? Stop it"
Yes... Kakashi does > Jiraiya by virtue of having more and better feats
No...Kakashi doesn't > Jiraiya by virtue of having more and better feats. As I said before, the lack of feats doesn't indicate who's stronger than another character on a power totem pole. There are far more factors you look at in that case. Jiraiya technically out-scaled Kakashi before his death by fighting and taking out multiple paths of pain. Not to mention he survived longer against more them and longer than Kakashi displayed in his fight at that time. We're comparing Jiraiya to Kakashi before the war as Jiraiya died before the war.
He killed the 4 weakest Paths of Pain, cool I guess. It's not like he had every advantage like the environment, Auditory Genjutsu thanks to Ma and Pa (Which he won't have time to summon in this fight
They're clearly all-powerful in their own right though. To call them weak is narrow-minded, to say the least. As for Ma and Pa they're apart of the transformation and he'll summon them if given the chance which is highly likely.
How does Pain > Itachi lol? Edo Itachi was = to Edo Nagato whom is >>>>>> Paths of Pain
Um...that's horribly incorrect. You need to either rewatch and or reread the fight because Itachi never fought him directly. Both times he hit Nagato was when he was preoccupied with Bee and Naruto who are both stronger than the Sanin barring Tsunade's raw power. Itachi has never been displayed to have strength on par with Jiraiya or Tsunade's barring the Yasaka beads from the Susanoo which he won't have up the whole battle.
"Pain literally said if Jiraiya had known about his ability to come bacc he wouldn't have won."
Oh look, another empty statement with 0 feats to back it up. And he said "Probably", he also more than likely said that out of respect for his former master.
Again, we should be more inclined to believe the character unless you have a valid reason to doubt them. They know more than we do and I would def be more inclined to believe what they say rather than someone who's only argument against it is "I need to see it or he's wrong". You're basically calling them liars because you don't have the proof in your hands which is a terrible way to debate any point. At least dispute the character with some damning evidence. Also, he said probably and when someone says probably that means it's more likely to happen than it isn't.
That's the counter for fodder Genjutsu, Itachi is a master of Genjutsu and no one has ever broken out of Tsukuyomi by simply flowing their chakra into them.
At the end of the day, every jutsu has a weakness as Itachi says. It acts as a typical Genjutsu but far more powerful. It's not like Izanami, Izanagi, or the IT where they cannot be broken out of. He's only used the attack less than a handful of times so the parameters on that are shaky. But they can easily feel or sense his chakra building and just avoid his or Sasuke's gaze.
She has no counter to Amaterasu, it will stay on her and burn forever, eventually, her regen will wear out and Amaterasu will still be there. Or either Uchiha put her under Genjutsu.
It's rare to see those who's gotten caught and killed by Amaterasu being a named character who's highly regarded. Most who've been caught have survived and I wouldn't put it past the Sanin to have some answer.
"Jiraiya got gravely injured by a pre-Shippuden 4 tails
Jiraiy's got no notable speed feats
Jiraiya died to the weakest Paths of Pain whilst in Sage Mode."
He wasn't trying to fight Naruto so you can't use that. If you still want to use then Healthy Itachi nearly got cleaned by Yagura in the cloak. Jiraiya got severely impaled by a four tailed nine tails cloak (which is vastly, vastly more powerful than the three tails cloak in full) and survived, make of that what you will.
The Cyborg pain is physically the most powerful barring Tendo pain as they've displayed already so. Also while Jiraiya's speed feats are lacking, he has far more variety in his Justu arsenal to make up for it. Plus, Orochimaru and Tsunade to make up for it. Also, it's worth noting that Kisame who edged out with Killer B and took hard shots from seventh gate guy stated that Jiraiya was on another different level from he was.
As for Orochimaru, it's worth noting that him being healthy is arguably more powerful than Itachi. If this battle would count for healthy Orochimaru during the GNW that is. He'd absorbed Kabuto's sage mode on top of his own chakra and gained the powers of the Sound Nin 5, Suigestu, Karin, and Jugo. Sage Mode Kabuto was able to edge out and go toe to toe with both "Healthy" MS Edo Itachi and EMS Sasuke. Orochimaru was significantly more powerful than Kabuto was base to base and with Dragon Sage on top would be deadly. What makes this worse for the Uchiha Brothers is the fact that Orochimaru jumped into a Zetsu body. This means that Orochimaru's host body is significantly more powerful, he's able to use any nature transformation Jutsu, can use Wood Style,and can use the Sage Mode.
He by himself can probably take this high difficulty. Tsunade and her Creation Rebirth, and Jiraiya's versatility plus this new op Orochimaru would def take this match. I say if this is old school Oro at the beginning of Shippuden the battle is a 50/50 split. If this is Oro during the later stages of the GNW then the Sanin take this 7-8 times out of 10.
@entity1: Itahi would definitely beat Orochimaru, and he did show his superiority with his genjutsu, but he didn't "one shot him". Orochimaru just decided it was a fight he couldn't win and stopped. If he was really one shot fodder to Itachi he wouldn't have challenged him again after coming out of Sasuke's body, and he wasn't even afraid of Itachi's susanoo power.
I could definitely see the Uchiha winning due to their genjutsu being OP, amaterasu, susanoo, and totska blade, but the Sanin would probably give them an extremely hard time.
@zuriel-el: Why do you say this version of Sasuke isn't sanin tier? Sasuke was shown to be a kage level threat at the summit and beat Danzo who is also kage level.
@alextheboss: lol no, sasuke would've died fighting raikage, gaara was easily dealing with all his attacks and would've been able to overwhelm him in battle, ohnoki straight up ko'd him after zetsu boosted his chakra, mizukage melted his susanoo etc these are the only kage tier sasuke fought.
NOT DANZOU (recall everything said about horuzen andwhy he died in part1, he was old and low on chakra and his stats were no longer up to that standard).
danzou and hiruzen are the same age, sasuke killed and old giy way beyond he physical prime, not a kage level ninja, there is no hokage danzou would beat fighting the way he fought sasuke, not hashirama, not tobirama, hiruzen was stronger than him (damzou said so), minato stomps him, tsunade kills him, kakashi would beat him and please lets not think about mentioning lord seventh.
Sasuke was ragdolled by actual kage and then SASUKE KILLED AN OLD MAN.
@zuriel-el: Sasuke made the Raikage lose an arm, and Gaara was there at the same time so it's not like it was a 1v1. Ohnoki is the only one who would have wrecked Sasuke, and imo he was the strongest of the 5 kage at the time. Danzou was hold, but having all those eyes gave him a huge advantage. If he just killed Danzo once I would agree with you, but he killed him dozens of times. Itachi is also above Sanin tier and while he didn't want to kill Sasuke and was sick, Sasuke impressed him, and that was before Sasuke got MS. And Kakashi wouldn't beat MS Sasuke. iirc Kakashi admitted he was inferior when they met after the Danzo fight. Kage like Hashirama and Naruto would of course stomp him, but MS Sasuke should at least be low kage level. He 100% beats some of these crappy current kage in Boruto.
@alextheboss: dark swamp takes both itachi and sasuke by surprise, pain didn't see it coming and jiraiya can do it on a large-scale.
https://www.mangareader.net/naruto/166/7
(jiraiya did this while under the effects of a drug that weakened him to thepointthathe could omly summon a little frog, when he was trying to summon bunta).
https://www.mangareader.net/naruto/166/8
(drugged)
*Amaterasu:
jiraiya can also easily deal with amaterasu. plus every sanin has the speed to dodge it.
https://www.mangareader.net/naruto/148/9
*Victory is sure.
and frog song is an instant ko, they won't be doing jack to save each other when the genjutsu continues till jiraiya kills them, if they try going at the Sannin in a slug fest, tsunade would kill whoever did that (her punches can break susano), jiraiya is in sagemode, and orochimaru could flood the battle field with an army of snakes, itachi and sasuke don't stand a chance.
*REPLYING POST 79:
NO he didn't, raikage chose to lose the arm, sasuke didn't force jack or make jack (you make it sound like sasuke did it and not that raikage chose to discard his arm)and it was a one on one fight until gaara saved sasuke from being cut in half bu raikages guillotine drop (sasuke would've died right there (and at full power raikage took on walking susanoos so saying sasuke scales to him is nonsense), gaara would kill sasuke at that point the dude stopped a frigging waking susanoo and stopped attacks from madaras susanoo (how is sasuke doing jack to that?, ohnoki stomps sasuke, and mizukage melted his susanoo (you can't dispute this, it happened in the manga).
Danzou was lacking in stats and cant comlareto any hokage, kakashi never said he was inferior to sasuke (sasuke was the one boasting only to have his arrow deflected by kamui), sasuke also wasn't kakashi tier at taijutsu, the battle with danzou was basically this:
Sasuje vs old guy who overestimated sharingan (obito said this) and thouht himself invincible and all this without shisuis eye (danzou was an idiot). sasuke wasn't hokage tier.
Also impressing someone doesn't mean that you compare to someone else, also you speak as though pre ms sasuke wasn't literally having so many amps from orochimaru, he had orochimarus curse seal, and had orochimarus powers which he absorbed, he didn't fight that battle himself, not to mention the regenerative ability he got from the white snake (orochimaru) which allowed him survive that battle (when itachi hit him with amaterasu it was over), without all these sasuke didn't scale to kakashi much less jiraiya, orochimaru (prime not the sick dying thing sasuke absorbed) and tsunade (actually Made madara replace himself with a clone).
And for the love of El, stop arguing like an uchiha fanboy, itachi isn't sannin tier either (much less above It)
When he defeated orochimaru, he used a kanashibari type genjutsu on orochimaru when orochimaru tried to take his body, its not like they had an actual battle (itachi would lose due to edo tensei among other reasons).
If you want to say itachi is above sannin tIer then please, Tell me if itachi holds a candle to a serious Jiraiya, or the six paths of pain (this is what above sanin tier means), is there anything itachi can us to kill a sanin, can he beat any of them without the reason being tsukiyomi? (useless against jiraiya and tsunade, unlike orochimaru they don't satre into sharingan in awe of what they can accomplish with it), is there any jutsu hehas they can't evade and/or overcome? The answer is no. Stop this itachi wank.
Orochimaru was no threat to Itachi and Tsunade doesn’t have the speed to avoid Amaterasu nor does she have feats of cracking a susanoo above the rib cage version. Just because the raikage did well against Ms sasuke doesn’t mean Tsunade could copy him, if raikage wasn’t so fast he wouldn’t have been able to avoid Amaterasu.
So the question would be if Jiraya could carry his team which he can’t do since orochimaru would get destroyed with genjutsu and tsunade punching Sasuke or Itachi immediately gets Amaterasu.
Another thing Jiraya and Tsunade doesn’t have the feats to say they could even stop tsukuyomi since they don’t have genjutsu resisting feats in general and we just assume that they can.
Man the sannin debaters are terrible, Tsunade is an absolute non factor Amaterasu, or susanoo arrow kills her. Jiraiya gets sniped with susanoo arrow or Amaterasu he’s to slow and itachi stomps orochimaru as usual
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