Standard suits for everyone but no gear
@richard96: @lubub55: @gotoucanario: @symbiosis89: @torikowontdie: Ozymandias is tuff but there is no way that he is stomping when Daredevil alone would give him trouble. His best feats are beating up old and out of shape vigilantes while everyone here is in their prime. There is also the fact that he did so well partially because of him prepping for the entire fight. The team win 7/10.
@mister_surreal: You say old and out of shape but Nite Owl still stomped an entire prison wing with Silk Spectre and minimal effort, and Rorschach held his own against a fully armed SWAT team and armed police officers.
Ozy stomped the pair of them with literally no effort. Prep had nothing to do with it - he was just flat out better than them.
@richard96: @kingcrimson: A prison of featless inmates which everyone here is except maybe Fisk could stomp. Night Owl also got help which makes it even less impressive. Rorschach got stomped once the police grabbed him, he only lasted so long in the building because he wa able to make some weapons. Prep did have to do with it since he was prepping for years while everyone was retired. He knew exactly how all of them operated, their fight patterns and what weakness they. It’s not even like he stomped Rorschach and Night Owl with no effort, he’s just very good at maintaining calm composure while doing really anything. Daredevil and Punisher could take out a prison like that if they needed to and Kingpin is seemingly peakhuman. The team stil stomps. Stop wanking Ozy.
@mister_surreal: Explain to me where the wank is instead of just throwing the word out. We’ve already seen how Castle dealt with featless prison inmates, and it was less impressive than Nite Owl. Fisk is a slow useless brick - he doesn’t have the feats to touch Ozy. Rorschach got dog piled, which can happen to literally anyone. It has nothing to do with skill.
Daredevil is the only one who can hold out for a while, but he’s outclassed everywhere. There’s no wank, he’s just better than all of them.
EDIT: There’s also nothing even hinting that his prep included analysing their fighting style. He just bodied them because he was a far, far better fighter than both of them combined.
@kingcrimson: The wank comes from the poor scaling being used here. Not only is Daredevil a threat on his own but Punisher gives him a boost. Frank didn’t deal with prisoners as easily because he didn’t have anyone to help him do half of the work like Night Owl did with Silk Spectre. Making that only half of an unimpressive feat.
Rorschach has nothing to boast about since all he did was struggle against a lot of police officers, which anyone here would have done a lot better. Rorschach is featless.
The only real threat to Ozy was Nightowl who did have some feats, but Daredevil is already better than him and Rorschach. Punisher is just slightly less effective than Daredevil and Fisk’s stats would give Ozymandias too much to work with.
He could beat Dardevil but adding Frank and Kingpin means that he gets overwhelmed. The team win.
Edit: On second thought, you’re right. Adrien is just better than a half decent and featless combatants.
@mister_surreal: Frank was repeatedly tagged by the prisoners and beat 8 of them in a tough fight. Nite Owl alone one or two shotted around 13 inmates. That’s with pretty much no effort. SS didn’t help him at all with the inmates that he handled, so it’s a moot point. The Watchmen have far better stats than anybody here and Ozy manhandled them like children.
Rorschach struggled with the policemen about as much as Frank did with the prisoners. He handled 6 SWAT members in full riot gear and then fought another 6~ beat cops who had nightsticks before getting dog piled, which can happen to literally anybody regardless of skill.
Ozy lolstomped Nite Owl who was a Daredevil level fighter as well as Rorschach who’s a Frank level fighter. Adding Kingpin makes no difference. He’s too fast, too skilled and too strong.
@kingcrimson: I’m not even going to talk about Rorschach since he hasn’t done anything besides struggle with SWAT team members. You’re attempt at making Rorschach struggling with fodder sound impressive isn’t working. Nightowl was in full gear which added durability and still got help with Silk Spectre who has borderline superhuman feats. You can keep using that feat but it still won’t help you.
Daredevil consistently clears rooms of trained goons that fight him at the same time while being stuck the entire time of cramped spaces, Night Owl has never done anything on that level by himself. Punisher is just one step behind him with his own H2H feats and being able to keep up with a serious Daredevil in more than one fight that was almost evenly matched. They could honestly take Ozy together with difficulty. Kingpin would lay massive hits on Ozy while the other two go back and forth, him being able to grabbed Daredevil in full gear and manhandle him proves that.
The only person in Watchmen who has greater stats than these people as far as I am concerned is Ozymandias, who has only ever stomped people who are almost fodder level themselves. Stop comparing Watchemen characters to these guys, everyone knows that they are fodder compared to any person outside of their own universe. Anything else?
@mister_surreal: No less impressive than Frank, who consistently struggles with regular criminals in both seasons of the punisher. Nite Owl’s suit/durability has nothing to do with it seeing as he is never tagged by any of them. Nor does Silk Spectre have anything do with it when he smacked 13 people without her help - he literally stomps them all with 1/2 shots each, and she whacks about 7-8 as well. You can quit spouting the daft CV rhetoric that Watchmen characters are fodder when they’d dribble most Netflix characters heads off the deck.
Neither Frank nor Matt have the stats to hang with Ozy who completely bodied people on their level, and that useless sack of crap Fisk can only hold out so long thanks to his actually fairly superhuman stats.
Nite Owl and Silk Spectre have better stats than any one of the MCU team, and Rorschach isn’t far off.
“eVeRyBoDY KnOwS wATcHmEn ArE wEaK”. Give me a break. Nite Owl could feasibly beat everybody on the MCU team if it was 1v1.
@kingcrimson: I’m going to stop you right there. The point is pretty simple, Rorschach is featless and Night Owl has almost featless. Everyone here has been in numerous fights and consistently beaten people more skilled than Night Owl.
Ozymandias has never bodied anyone more skilled than these guys, the only one who comes anywhere near their level is Comedian who was old and burnt up, did I mention featless?
The only one to scale off of besides him is Nightowl who hasn’t done anything not including taking out fodder along with Silk Spectre who actually does have better stats than Punisher and Daredevil based on feats, so her helping Nightowl in the prison doesn’t actually help your case.
Unless you can provide legitimate feats for Ozymandias and Nightowl rather than spewing out random claims with no evidence, the team wins. This is why CV doesn’t usually take Watchmen characters seriously, they don’t have anything impressive to say that they can beat people outside of their own universe.
@mister_surreal: None of them are featless, and you only need a modicum of common sense to extrapolate for their abilities. If you want to fall back on the featless card to save your argument, be my guest, but you’re not fooling me.
The only reasonable thing you’ve actually said is that Silk Spectre has far better stats than either Daredevil or Punisher - as does Nite Owl - and not that she helped with the 13 inmates he swiftly crucified without effort. She bodied around 8 people, similar to Castle, except she didn’t remotely exert herself doing it. Castle isn’t a factor here, Daredevil can only play keepaway for so long, and Fisk is just a punching bag. The team get smashed.
@kingcrimson: Feats card? As usual, Watchmen fans always say people can win without using any feats. All I have said are reasonable things, your problem is that you are so caught up with these characters and them not doing anything that beats these characters that you know accuse me of “relying on feats”. News flash genius, you need to have feats to prove claims. Movie Silk Spectre has better stats than anyone on the MCU team since she can rotate a person’s head with her bare hands, Night Owl however doesn’t have feats like. I’m not going to accept your arguement a unless you can actually prove that’s Night Owl is more skilled by using feats that aren’t made up in your deluded head. By the way, none of those feats were without their efffort.
Here’s the math:
@mister_surreal: I said “no feats” card, not the other way around. It’s there in black and white, so either your comprehension is horseshit or you’re being deliberately disingenuous. The Watchmen characters have feats. I agree Nite Owl and Rorschach lack feats against other skilled opponents, but that doesn’t change the fact that Nite Owl has shown stats enough to snap bones with single strikes and launch fully grown men off the ground and a fair distance too - clearly superhuman stuff. Silk Spectre did the same, and Rorschach lifted a fully geared up SWAT member off the floor and hit him with enough force to knock over a group of other officers as well. He also smashed a SWAT guy through a wooden banister with a single strike as well.
Ozy completely chumped both of them without even trying (at one point without even looking) and was knocking them around the place like footballs. I never once accused you of “relying on feats”, I criticised you for trying to insinuate that the Watchmen characters don’t have feats when they clearly do.
@kingcrimson: We’re going in circles. Since you still haven’t shown anything that puts anyone besides Ozymandias on a their level, I’m just going to leave the discussion here. If we’re going to use assumptions then anyone here could make almost any “logical” argument. The main issue here is that you don’t even have off screen feats to makes assumptions to use let alone on screen feats. Good day.
I’m gonna say Ozymandias. Ozymandias is one of those characters who have little exposition but what we did see was extremely impressive, Daredevil and company may have scaling chains and stuff like that to maybe play in their advantage but I don’t see them replicating what Ozy did.
Ozy demolished everybody he came into contact with in that film. How is stomping two fighters (who showed superhuman stats and decent H2H skill) without even trying not a feat?
I agree he lacks the 3 seasons of feats that Dardevil has, but every time he was on screen he was portrayed as an incredibly skilled fighter. Daredevil is more skilled by feats, sure, but to say Ozy isn’t skilled is wrong.
He outstats everybody on this team by miles, enough to wreck Frank and put Fisk down without issue. DD is the only relevant fighter on the team and he isn’t beating Ozy after the other 2 get dropped.
EDIT: also, sorry about being an arse last night. Few too many beers.
Team. Matt could hold his own against Elektra, who is at least as good as Ozy all across the board and has some feats that show that he could at least bother him, Frank's stamina and pain tolerance allows him to stay in the fight, and Fisk is the heavy hitter of the group. Ozy won't fall easy but I could see the team winning in a tough fight.
@kingcrimson: I wasn’t exactly polite either, I apologize. My only issue is that while he seems to have slightly better agility as a whole, I haven’t seen much that would put him very far above Daredevil and Punisher as a whole. After how much pain that they can endure, I don’t see Ozy putting them down nearly as easily as he did to Rorschach and Night Owl.
He seems to have slightly better stats, but I wouldn’t say he has fighting skill just by looking at his feats and what Daredevil has done. I haven’t really seen Night Owl do anything that would actually put him on Daredevil’s level while Punisher has consistently been able to go toe to toe with him on numerous occasions. Fisk is also much faster than he looks based on him grabbing Daredevil and ragdolling him.
I say that Ozy is the most competent as a whole, but not such a good fighter or physically superior that he would take on all three of them. Fisk is much faster than he looks based on combat feats. Daredevil being able to stand up to Elektra in his show and in The Defenders when she could solo Iron Fist, Luke Cage and Jessica Jones at the same time is extraordinary. He could very well take on Ozymandias by himself when she was the Black Sky. Frank and turn can keep up with a serious Dardevil which also makes him a threat.
I’m sorry, I just don’t see enough evidence to say that Ozy can take all of them at the same time. Why don’t we agree to disagree?
@mister_surreal: I can see where you’re coming from, but I hold the Watchmen in higher regard than most on here I suppose.
Tell you what, when I get home I’ll try and put something a bit more structured together with some feats and analysis to make a case for Ozy. If you’re still not convinced, I’ll let it lie.
Ok here's the thing, their speed is actually almost equal. Both Daredevil and Punisher (especially after Punisher's second season) have a ton of crazy aim dodging feats. But Ozy is still faster, since he can actually catch bullets. The problem is their strength and durability is nowhere near equal.
Ozymandias took hits from an enraged Nite Owl, who despite @mister_surreal's claims of being "out of shape" is strong enough to easily break bones with a single punch. And just look at his ridiculous strength.
I’m not sure if he can actually catch bullets, I assumed that he simply moved his hand into the path of the bullet faster than it could be fired. Either way, it was a good feat and one that validates him being at least notably faster than them one on one. I also do agree that his strength is insane but I do think that Daredevil, Punisher and maybe even Fisk take it after what they have endured.
But in regards to Night Owl breaking bone easily, Ozymandias gear would almost certainly absorb most of the impact from his strikers rather than taking the full force of them. There is also the fact that I remember Night Owl breaking people’s arms through bending them in different ways but I don’t remember him breaking bone with a single punch. It’s one thing to snap a person arm but it is another thing to break a bone with a punch. Could you show me a gif or video that has him doing that?
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