Not sure if it's good the fight is on Dathomir considering Talzin's power there....but eh never really followed the Son comics, the fight I saw was kinda lackluster too.
Side note, Vader spinning his saber like that is totally legit and I want more of that awesome.
This thread is a good example of why mixing New Canon-based characters vs characters with a myriad of Legends Canon feats can be difficult.
In New Canon, characters tend not to show the same hypersonic+ levels of speed that Legends characters do (and Vader definitely has).
While Talzin has few speed feats and none of which are better than low level superhuman/peak human type stuff, Vader has moved faster than thought and thrown blows imperceptibly fast, and more. That alone is enough to allow Vader to win, but then when you factor in that Talzin is an extremely unaccomplished duelist, it becomes even more of a stomp in Vaders favor. Talzin, in Dooku's body, was disarmed by Sidious in one exchange of lightsaber blows, Sidious stating that while she possessed his body, she possessed none of his skill. Now to be fair, Talzin managed to duel with Mace Windu evenly in her own body with a Magicka sword, so depending on how you interpret her feats, she could actually be very skilled. I suppose it's fair enough to say that she would be very unaccustomed to dueling in Dooku's body, with an unfamiliar weapon that she's never used before (a lightsaber, with a curved hilt just to make it more difficult), and she was fighting Sidious - someone who humiliated Maul and Savage in New Canon and is about a notch or two ahead of Vader in terms of raw skill.
Talzin should be more powerful than Vader. She absorbed Sidious' lightning, and even absorbed it and Dooku's combined briefly. New Canon Sidious was powerful enough to telekinetically ragdoll Dooku across the galaxy, who himself has something like a 100 ton TK feat (lifting the orbalisks).
I'll say this - if we were to assume that Talzin is powerful enough to augment her Force Speed to Vaders' level, she can win by at least approaching him in blade skill, and being more powerful than him by a fair bit. But, going purely by feats, Vader should speedblitz her for a majority.
she can win by at least approaching him in blade skill,
No, she isn't. She attacked Palpatine, he forced it into a bladelock, and then he disarmed her in one hit. She clashed with Mace Windu briefly in an environment favoring her, and that's all she has. She also fled from Grievous, and Palpatine commented that she possessed none of Dooku's skill, which likely indicates that she isn't even comparable to Dooku as a swordsman.
Talzin would win if she has prep. Outside of prep, I have no idea what makes her overly powerful. Her Emerald Lightning is perhaps the only thing troubling Vader. She lacks rituals or anything, so I'm not sure what would prove a challenge to Vader aside from her Lightning. I can't recall any exceptional telekinetic feats, and IIRC, her Protection Bubble never displayed its level of resiliency (since I don't recall it actually repelling blaster bolts, only being summoned). I could be missing a few episodes of TCW or something, though.
He disarmed her when she was in a body and wielding a weapon she had zero training with. When she fought Windu, she had everything she has in this fight (and that contest did go on for a decent enough time to use as a feat, you can even hear Windu's lightsaber crackling off-screen). Sidious saying she possesses none of Dooku's skill can only be in reference to her lightsaber ability - a weapon she's never used before. She's evidently much better with a magicka sword.
@i_like_swords: The point about using Dooku's curved hilt makes sense, but not the part about Palpatine saying she possessed none of Dooku's skill. He said nothing about weapons - he made it clear that Talzin was simply not the duelist Dooku was at all (if she was, she would have adapted to another weapon quickly enough). And for that matter, whilst a curved hilt would present difficulty to her in wielding it, it would hardly undermine her skill so tremendously that she wouldn't be able to perform anywhere close to her normal levels. Anybody with a certain level of skill can learn to adapt to other weapons fairly quickly enough, or at least prevent unfamiliarity with a different style of hilt from hindering them profusely as you seem to be implying.
Also, not being used to Dooku's body is either irrelevant or minimal. Dooku's body functions perfectly fine.
As for dueling evenly with Mace, yes, she did, but I don't know if or how inconsistent that is, to be honest, and for that matter, it was only for a short time (or else we'd be claiming that Grievous = Mace in skill or something of the sorts), plus it was on a potent dark side nexus enhancing her abilities and weakening Mace's.
The point about using Dooku's curved hilt makes sense, but not the part about Palpatine saying she possessed none of Dooku's skill. He said nothing about weapons - he made it clear that Talzin was simply not the duelist Dooku was at all (if she was, she would have adapted to another weapon quickly enough). And for that matter, whilst a curved hilt would present difficulty to her in wielding it, it would hardly undermine her skill so tremendously that she wouldn't be able to perform anywhere close to her normal levels. Anybody with a certain level of skill can learn to adapt to other weapons fairly quickly enough, or at least prevent unfamiliarity with a different style of hilt from hindering them profusely as you seem to be implying.
The weapon Sidiouswas referring to was a lightsaber. Sidious has never seen Talzin duel with a Magicka sword, and his views on her skill are still only subjective. He couldn't have been referring to her as a combatant on the whole, because he has never seen her fight in her own body, with her own weapon of choice. He's only seen her duel with a curved hilted lightsaber, in Dooku's body. I again stress - she has never used a lightsaber, therefore she hasn't been trained to cope with the sheer amount of dexterity required to properly wield one, never mind with a curved hilt, in the body of another being. To say Talzin isn't a good swordfighter because she couldn't adapt to all three of those negative factors without any training is a little unreasonable IMO.
As for dueling evenly with Mace, yes, she did, but I don't know if or how inconsistent that is, to be honest, and for that matter, it was only for a short time (or else we'd be claiming that Grievous = Mace in skill or something of the sorts), plus it was on a potent dark side nexus enhancing her abilities and weakening Mace's.
Her only two dueling feats are against Windu and Sidious, and both have justifiable circumstances to make them consistent.
I know the duel was short, but other duelists such as Asajj Ventress have been driven off in that span of time, so while I can't and wouldn't claim she's equal to Mace, she still has to be a roughly tier 7.5 swordfighter in order to last that long in the first place.
However your last statement is true, and something I managed to overlook until now. I still maintain however that Talzin can somewhat hold her own against Vader in a swordfight (sans speed disparity), because holding even with a weakened Windu (although honestly I doubt that TCW writers even factored in Nexus weakening, and Mace looked okay in the fight scene) for over half a minute is a pretty good feat.
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0:52 and onward. I'm only estimating at over half a minute because of how much of the fight is off-screen.
Talzin would retain the same dueling capacity in this fight, while Vader would be amplified to a degree as well. In a lightsaber duel, Vader wins, but Talzin could hold her own even if just for something like 40 seconds to a minute.
And I would vouch for Talzin being more powerful. Absorbing Sidious' Force lightning for such a lengthy period of time is something only beings along the lines of Yoda have been capable of accomplishing, and then she managed to hold Dooku's at the same time, by herself. She also had help from Maul at one point to combat Dooku's bolstering Sidious, but then that's still a feat for Talzin since Dooku is more powerful than Maul.
Translating that showing of power into her Emerald Lightning, she would overwhelm Vader, within some period of time.
As for her protection bubble, I do remember it repelling blaster bolts. The best source to go by would be this video:
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And just to answer your question from a while ago, I will be doing a Talzin respect thread. I know it's been a while in the making along with my other stuff, but I've been kind of busy.
The weapon Sidiouswas referring to was a lightsaber. Sidious has never seen Talzin duel with a Magicka sword, and his views on her skill are still only subjective. He couldn't have been referring to her as a combatant on the whole, because he has never seen her fight in her own body, with her own weapon of choice. He's only seen her duel with a curved hilted lightsaber, in Dooku's body. I again stress - she has never used a lightsaber, therefore she hasn't been trained to cope with the sheer amount of dexterity required to properly wield one, never mind with a curved hilt, in the body of another being. To say Talzin isn't a good swordfighter because she couldn't adapt to all three of those negative factors without any training is a little unreasonable IMO.
Talzin might have possessed other bodies before (she half-possessed Dooku at one-point), but even then, being in the body of another being is hardly restrictive. Palpatine was perfectly fine in all of his bodies. I don't see what Talzin being in Dooku's body has to do with anything.
Talzin has faced lightsabers before, at least, so she should have an idea of what is going on. The curved hilt is acceptable but that hardly means Talzin would be so badly impaired. Sidious simply said Talzin was nothing comparative to Dooku in skill. Even if there was a negative factor, it would not be so tremendous in terms of how badly it would affect her.
It would be pretty stupid for her to just charge at Sidious using an odd-lightsaber anyway, unless she knew what she was doing.
Her only two dueling feats are against Windu and Sidious, and both have justifiable circumstances to make them consistent.
She ran from Grievous, too, on a dark side nexus. I can't remember if he had any droids with him.
I know the duel was short, but other duelists such as Asajj Ventress have been driven off in that span of time, so while I can't and wouldn't claim she's equal to Mace, she still has to be a roughly tier 7.5 swordfighter in order to last that long in the first place.
Ventress was fleeing of her own accord, not being conclusively beaten, and again, Mace was being hindered and Talzin amped by the fact that they were fighting on Dathomir.
However your last statement is true, and something I managed to overlook until now. I still maintain however that Talzin can somewhat hold her own against Vader in a swordfight (sans speed disparity), because holding even with a weakened Windu (although honestly I doubt that TCW writers even factored in Nexus weakening, and Mace looked okay in the fight scene) for over half a minute is a pretty good feat.
We're debating it from our perspective, not TCW (using that argument, I can use the past discrepancies with TCW to undermine the showing). Also, Talzin was amplifed as well, not just Mace being weakened, so that's a double advantage on her part.
As for the fight itself, all it consisted of was Talzin engaging Mace in a bladelock and taunting him, deflecting one of his blows, then swinging at him a few times and him dodging all the blows, then leaping to lower ground, Talzin following him, and then landing another semi-lock where Mace pushes her back, and then it goes off-panel. I can agree with off-panel fighting, but then we come back to another bladelock (which takes time, and the scene cuts to them being in the middle of a bladelock, so we don't know how long they spent like that), so a decent portion of the fight was just a matter of strength rather than skill. Even provided that the part of the fight we didn't see was them properly trading blows, the fact that Mace was lowered in capability and Talzin increased makes the showing even worse. I really don't know what to say on this. It's a mixed showing.
Talzin would retain the same dueling capacity in this fight, while Vader would be amplified to a degree as well. In a lightsaber duel, Vader wins, but Talzin could hold her own even if just for something like 40 seconds to a minute.
The difference is that Vader would be amplified instead of being hindered, so it ends up being neutral ground rather than a double advantage for Talzin.
And I would vouch for Talzin being more powerful. Absorbing Sidious' Force lightning for such a lengthy period of time is something only beings along the lines of Yoda have been capable of accomplishing, and then she managed to hold Dooku's at the same time, by herself. She also had help from Maul at one point to combat Dooku's bolstering Sidious, but then that's still a feat for Talzin since Dooku is more powerful than Maul.
Maybe.
As for Dooku being more powerful than Maul, Dooku had just recovered from being wrecked by Talzin's magical powers, so I doubt he was at full capacity anyway (IIRC, he still appeared somewhat weakened or hunched over or whatever even when he was firing the Lightning)
Translating that showing of power into her Emerald Lightning, she would overwhelm Vader, within some period of time.
Eh. Vader should be able to repel it on his blade, though, so it requires her to land the shots.
As for her protection bubble, I do remember it repelling blaster bolts. The best source to go by would be this video:
Talzin might have possessed other bodies before (she half-possessed Dooku at one-point), but even then, being in the body of another being is hardly restrictive. Palpatine was perfectly fine in all of his bodies. I don't see what Talzin being in Dooku's body has to do with anything.
You don't think it'd be challenging being in another person's body at the moment you begin swordfighting one of the most skilled beings in the galaxy? Going to have to disagree. She just wouldn't be used to Dooku's body mechanics at all, whether that means she doesn't know his physical limits, or she can't achieve his physical potential - because she's not used to it.
Talzin has faced lightsabers before, at least, so she should have an idea of what is going on. The curved hilt is acceptable but that hardly means Talzin would be so badly impaired. Sidious simply said Talzin was nothing comparative to Dooku in skill. Even if there was a negative factor, it would not be so tremendous in terms of how badly it would affect her.
It would be pretty stupid for her to just charge at Sidious using an odd-lightsaber anyway, unless she knew what she was doing.
Well yes, she can swordfight. But using a sword against a lightsaber is different from wielding a lightsaber, and the curved hilt only makes that factor more difficult. She's just never been trained to use a lightsaber, and that along with being in Dooku's body is enough to justify being stomped by Sidious.
Even if it was in reference to swordfighting in the broadest sense, his view is still limited, and thus, subjective. He hasn't seen her fight with a Magicka sword, in her own body. There were three negative factors, and I believe any one of them would be enough to set someone back, nevermind all of them at once.
Eh, she was only using Dooku for life energy anyway. I agree it wasn't the smartest move, but it is what it is.
She ran from Grievous, too, on a dark side nexus. I can't remember if he had any droids with him.
I can't actually remember this, but I doubt it's because she was scared of losing to him in a fight. Given that Talzin was trying to persuade Dooku through a torturous ritual to send the Droid Army away, it'd make sense for her to avoid Grievous while doing so. At face value it sounds more akin to Dooku deciding that fighting Mace would be a waste of his time, especially with other Jedi in the area, deciding to send Magnaguards after him. I'll watch the episode to find out though.
Ventress was fleeing of her own accord, not being conclusively beaten, and again, Mace was being hindered and Talzin amped by the fact that they were fighting on Dathomir.
True. Although again I don't really believe TCW factors in Nexus weakening. For instance, Kenobi and Anakin had no problem fending off a squad of Nightbrothers on Dathomir non-lethally, and Mace didn't show any signs of being weakened. Plus this fight is on Dathomir, so Talzin still has her amp.
We're debating it from our perspective, not TCW (using that argument, I can use the past discrepancies with TCW to undermine the showing). Also, Talzin was amplifed as well, not just Mace being weakened, so that's a double advantage on her part.
As for the fight itself, all it consisted of was Talzin engaging Mace in a bladelock and taunting him, deflecting one of his blows, then swinging at him a few times and him dodging all the blows, then leaping to lower ground, Talzin following him, and then landing another semi-lock where Mace pushes her back, and then it goes off-panel. I can agree with off-panel fighting, but then we come back to another bladelock (which takes time, and the scene cuts to them being in the middle of a bladelock, so we don't know how long they spent like that), so a decent portion of the fight was just a matter of strength rather than skill. Even provided that the part of the fight we didn't see was them properly trading blows, the fact that Mace was lowered in capability and Talzin increased makes the showing even worse. I really don't know what to say on this. It's a mixed showing.
Well, we'd need to look at it from a TCW perspective. If the writers had never intended to have Windu weakened, we need to go by the logic that he wasn't at that time, even though in the EU he would be.
I agree a fair bit of it was strength-based, but I doubt that they would have remained in a blade-lock for the entirety of the off-screen fight. They weren't when the scene went back to them - they were separate. And I don't see any indication of Windu being weakened, which is just a case of TCW writers ignoring the EU/sourcebooks. Talzin is on Dathomir in this fight, so I still think as a feat, it's enough to suggest that Vader wouldn't curb her in a duel. He'd win within a fair amount of time, with moderate difficulty.
The difference is that Vader would be amplified instead of being hindered, so it ends up being neutral ground rather than a double advantage for Talzin.
And Vader is a less skilled duelist than Windu, so it more or less balances out. Windu performed well enough during that fight to suggest that Talzin was facing a pretty fresh Windu in any case, and I can't accept that Vader would do anything more than defeat her with moderate difficulty.
Maybe.
As for Dooku being more powerful than Maul, Dooku had just recovered from being wrecked by Talzin's magical powers, so I doubt he was at full capacity anyway (IIRC, he still appeared somewhat weakened or hunched over or whatever even when he was firing the Lightning)
Ah yeah, that's true. But yeah, I think Talzin unleashing Emerald Lightning is a good way for her to win this duel, and she can create distance by levitating or teleporting away from Vader, if she began to lose the duel.
Eh. Vader should be able to repel it on his blade, though, so it requires her to land the shots.
I dunno.. it'd require full effort on his part and I doubt he'd be able to hold it up long enough to win the fight before he succumbs to it.
You don't think it'd be challenging being in another person's body at the moment you begin swordfighting one of the most skilled beings in the galaxy? Going to have to disagree. She just wouldn't be used to Dooku's body mechanics at all, whether that means she doesn't know his physical limits, or she can't achieve his physical potential - because she's not used to it.
It doesn't matter who you're swordfighting against. We're discussing how well Talzin would do in Dooku's body, not whether or not Palpatine's presence would alter that.
Also, what physical limits? Talzin had complete control over his body, so the only physical limitations would be the limits of her own passive augmentations.
Well yes, she can swordfight. But using a sword against a lightsaber is different from wielding a lightsaber, and the curved hilt only makes that factor more difficult. She's just never been trained to use a lightsaber, and that along with being in Dooku's body is enough to justify being stomped by Sidious.
The curved hilt makes sense (although technically, there are Force-sensitives who have immediately picked up lightsabers and performed well with them, and some of them are not as powerful as Talzin), but the body just doesn't seem to work. So what if she's in Dooku's body? She has the control over Dooku' body.
Even if it was in reference to swordfighting in the broadest sense, his view is still limited, and thus, subjective. He hasn't seen her fight with a Magicka sword, in her own body. There were three negative factors, and I believe any one of them would be enough to set someone back, nevermind all of them at once.
Again, what does a body have to do with anything? If you possess someone, then you control the body. The body doesn't fight back or hinder you or anything of the sorts.
Eh, she was only using Dooku for life energy anyway. I agree it wasn't the smartest move, but it is what it is.
She didn't even need Dooku anyway, but it's still a stupid move unless she did know what she was doing.
I can't actually remember this, but I doubt it's because she was scared of losing to him in a fight. Given that Talzin was trying to persuade Dooku through a torturous ritual to send the Droid Army away, it'd make sense for her to avoid Grievous while doing so. At face value it sounds more akin to Dooku deciding that fighting Mace would be a waste of his time, especially with other Jedi in the area, deciding to send Magnaguards after him. I'll watch the episode to find out though.
Talzin would just obliterate Grievous if she was really that powerful. Dooku was leaving because he was threatened by other Jedi - whereas no such claim can be made for Talzin.
And Talzin's ritual already ended when her bucket of magic or whatever got knocked over IIRC.
She really has no reason to flee other than that she couldn't keep up with him in a fight.
True. Although again I don't really believe TCW factors in Nexus weakening. For instance, Kenobi and Anakin had no problem fending off a squad of Nightbrothers on Dathomir non-lethally, and Mace didn't show any signs of being weakened. Plus this fight is on Dathomir, so Talzin still has her amp.
Maybe not, but that's also just a result of their own inconsistencies with general EU. So it's only their own fault.
Nightbrothers don't really impress.
The difference is that Vader is amped as well, not hindered, as compared to Mace. Therefore, that neutralizes the double advantage that Talzin had over Mace in that she was amped whilst Mace was hindered, whereas here, both combatants are amped, which means it's neutral ground.
Well, we'd need to look at it from a TCW perspective. If the writers had never intended to have Windu weakened, we need to go by the logic that he wasn't at that time, even though in the EU he would be.
Eh... even then, Talzin was still amped for certain.
I agree a fair bit of it was strength-based, but I doubt that they would have remained in a blade-lock for the entirety of the off-screen fight. They weren't when the scene went back to them - they were separate. And I don't see any indication of Windu being weakened, which is just a case of TCW writers ignoring the EU/sourcebooks. Talzin is on Dathomir in this fight, so I still think as a feat, it's enough to suggest that Vader wouldn't curb her in a duel. He'd win within a fair amount of time, with moderate difficulty.
Nobody said they were entirely blade-locked. The only difference is, none of the fight consisted of real, traditional swordplay. It was just bladelocking and Talzin swinging and missing half a dozen of her blows (Mace dodged a few of them effortlessly).
And when the scene went back to them, they were in a bladelock (in the middle of one, in fact, so we don't know how long they were spending like that).
And Vader is a less skilled duelist than Windu, so it more or less balances out. Windu performed well enough during that fight to suggest that Talzin was facing a pretty fresh Windu in any case, and I can't accept that Vader would do anything more than defeat her with moderate difficulty.
Not even close. The disparity between Vader and Mace is minimal, whereas Talzin's amplification was certainly not a minimal edge.
Ah yeah, that's true. But yeah, I think Talzin unleashing Emerald Lightning is a good way for her to win this duel, and she can create distance by levitating or teleporting away from Vader, if she began to lose the duel.
Eh. Vader could probably kill her before she could react, though.
I dunno.. it'd require full effort on his part and I doubt he'd be able to hold it up long enough to win the fight before he succumbs to it.
Not really. Talzin's only feats are destroying droids, which aren't that impressive.
I agree with the fact Mother Talzin has a HUGE disadvantage by being using someone else's body for the first time .
Simply because the muscles of Dooku are completely different than Talzin's body .
First of all ( this is pure science ) woman have from nature more belly muscles than men , but men have more muscles in other areas, also talzin weighs less than dooku , so dooku has more stability when he's dueling, and 100 + more physical issues here .
So to adapt to all of these changes in less than seconds ?
I don't think you can use that fight really as it is to complex .
As interesting as this fight is, allow me to be somewhat sidetracked enough to ask, what the heck is with that picture of Vader? Does he have freaking lightsaber nunchaku?
@theirishdoctor: No, that's just him spinning his lightsaber with sufficient speed to generate such an afterglow.
Yes, I know that, but the angle of that arc would be impossible for the human hand to follow without letting go of the hilt. So either he isn't even holding the lightsaber and just doing it with force TK, Vader's robotic wrist can spin in place, or that illustrator needs some more practice.
If you can move your hand from your belly to your head in 0,20 sec, ( Talzin for example )
And someone else can only do it in 0,30 sec ( Dooku for example )
But Talzin's mind is used to the fact that she can do it in 0,20 sec, so without adapting her mind / instincts to the fact she can only do it in 0,30 Talzin could easily fail because of this .
If you can move your hand from your belly to your head in 0,20 sec, ( Talzin for example )
And someone else can only do it in 0,30 sec ( Dooku for example )
But Talzin's mind is used to the fact that she can do it in 0,20 sec, so without adapting her mind / instincts to the fact she can only do it in 0,30 Talzin could easily fail because of this .
Not really. Talzin is able to move at her level of speed due to her Force augmentation, and the same for Dooku. If Talzin inhabits Dooku's body, then the speed she has is equivalent to whatever speed she normally has via her natural Force augmentation. Being in Dooku's body is irrelevant because she can still draw upon the Force to augment herself.
Yes, I know that, but the angle of that arc would be impossible for the human hand to follow without letting go of the hilt. So either he isn't even holding the lightsaber and just doing it with force TK, Vader's robotic wrist can spin in place, or that illustrator needs some more practice.
The fact you are saying she uses the force to make dooku as fast as her own body would be impossible, because if she would use the force to do the belly-head thing in less than 0,30 sec , she would damage / break her muscles / tendons , and if she would fasten up other parts of the body as well which would also damage tendons / muscles , it would make her suffer more than the lightning Sidious throws at her .
Also there's more factors why possessing someone's body can be hindering apart from the physical issues .
How about she has to concentrate to posses Dooku's body while she's fighting ( can be hindering as she needs concentration for that ), how about the midi-chlorians difference in the body's etc ...
@beingfatissupercool: Midi-chlorians never mattered when Palpatine possessed any of his clone bodies. They were all equally suitable for him (except for the sabotaged ones, but clearly Dooku's body wasn't sabotaged). Midi-chlorians determine a character's Force potential, not their immediate Force power, and Talzin is the only one that matters.
As for bones or muscles breaking, that's the whole point of Force augmentation. The speeds and strength levels reached by certain characters would be completely impossible for natural muscles and bones to begin with. Her Force augmentation negates the infirmities of Dooku's body. So no, the bones won't break.
None of this really matters. The fact that she never attempted to duel Sidious again even when she was in her own body speaks well for what type of result they would have even without any of these so-called disadvantages.
Ok how about the fact her magic sword may have a different weight than a lightsaber ? It would completely ruin her technic ...
And you didn't answer the fact she needed to concentrate on controlling someone's body .
Also i figure Talzin doesn't control someone's body any day , so i guess even for her it is hard to do that, not to mention her fighting with the possessed body ...
But i'll give you those 2 points about damaging bones, and the midi chlorians .
1. And even when she was in her own body and would have been able to summon such a sword, she still refused to duel Palpatine, which speaks well enough.
2. Concentrating on what? Why would she need to concentrate on a body that she has complete control over?
Well it's not about Talzin being stronger or not than Sidious, but the fact if she was hindered or not .
I never said Talzin is stronger or better than Sidious .
Concentrating on keeping that control lol , obviously she has her own body somewhere out there as well so i'd figure that body would feel more natural to her than Dooku's body .
1. I was discussing with ILS the nature of their duel, so yes, it did matter how skilful with a blade they were or how well she would have performed in "non-disadvantageous situations".
2. Prove that Talzin needed concentration to maintain her control over Dooku's body.
My proof would be that she never used someone else's body in the other times we saw her fighting someone while there were plenty of body's around for her to use .
Now why wouldn't she have used someone else's body before ?
I'll tell you why, because she would be limited .
May i also point out Dooku being a lot heavier , and Talzin never fought with a body before that's twice as heavy ( arms , leggs , etc ... ) ? Just saying ...
So the fact that Talzin didn't use this trick before and the fact Dooku's body weighs two times more than mother Talzin is used to fight with is not a good reason why Talzin was hindered ?
Talzin has half-possessed Dooku before from across the galaxy, and obviously Talzin would have practiced this before, or else she wouldn't just blindly dive into Dooku's body.
How does that prove she needed concentration to control Dooku's body, which she completely owned? You just made that up.
Please don't use that scene please as it was with prep time , and wasn't controlling same way as we are talking about .
Do you really think Talzin can control someone's body without any effort to remain into that body ? Knowing she has her own body out there she has to control in some way ?
@beingfatissupercool: Yes, I do, because she had complete control over Dooku's body. Nothing in the comic implies she was struggling or anything of the sort.
Dooku might have tried to resist Talzin, but I doubt it would matter once Talzin already had control over his body.
None of this really matters. The decision should simply be this: if Vader can speedblitz, he wins. If Talzin lands a hit via Emerald Lightning, she wins.
It doesn't matter who you're swordfighting against. We're discussing how well Talzin would do in Dooku's body, not whether or not Palpatine's presence would alter that.
Also, what physical limits? Talzin had complete control over his body, so the only physical limitations would be the limits of her own passive augmentations.
Being in a brand new body which you aren't used to, using a weapon which you haven't trained with before, which has a curved hilt just for kicks, against one of the best duelists in the Star Wars mythos, is absolutely no slight against Talzin in terms of dueling Vader in her own body, with her own weapon. I'm going to leave it at that, because this isn't something I feel like debating further. To say that Talzin wasn't hindered to a particularly high degree that it would really matter in this duel, IMO, is completely unreasonable.
Nobody said they were entirely blade-locked. The only difference is, none of the fight consisted of real, traditional swordplay. It was just bladelocking and Talzin swinging and missing half a dozen of her blows (Mace dodged a few of them effortlessly).
And when the scene went back to them, they were in a bladelock (in the middle of one, in fact, so we don't know how long they were spending like that).
Fair enough, but I do find it hard to believe that all they did off-screen was blade lock. Talzin is probably something like a tier 6 duelist.
Eh. Vader could probably kill her before she could react, though.
But she's more powerful than Vader, so her Force speed should be equivalent or better. Right?
Being in a brand new body which you aren't used to, using a weapon which you haven't trained with before, which has a curved hilt just for kicks, against one of the best duelists in the Star Wars mythos, is absolutely no slight against Talzin in terms of dueling Vader in her own body, with her own weapon. I'm going to leave it at that, because this isn't something I feel like debating further. To say that Talzin wasn't hindered to a particularly high degree that it would really matter in this duel, IMO, is completely unreasonable.
Being in a brand new body never mattered when Palpatine took over his clones, or when Vitiate possessed his hosts.
Who you're fighting against has nothing to do with whether you're hindered in another body or not.
Powerful Force users have wielded lightsabers without training before, including Nomi Sunrider, who isn't anywhere near as powerful as Talzin. That, and Talzin has basic knowledge of lightsabers and swordsmanship in general, so while the curved hilt could present problems, the lightsaber probably doesn't.
She only attacked him once, anyway, so why would any of this matter?
And then, when she was in her own body, and had the opportunity to summon a sword, she didn't, which tells us that she would've had no better luck.
Fair enough, but I do find it hard to believe that all they did off-screen was blade lock. Talzin is probably something like a tier 6 duelist.
Vader being a full two tiers ahead of her in skill gives him an easy win.
And I never said all they did was blade-lock. I just said most of it isn't much for Talzin to boast about.
But she's more powerful than Vader, so her Force speed should be equivalent or better. Right?
Probably comparable. But then, Ferus fought Vader in Reckoning and still couldn't properly react in Secret Weapon.
Vader has a knack for catching targets off-guard, and Talzin is only somewhat, if not only slightly, more powerful than Vader as of RotJ, not exponentially. Nihilus is vastly more powerful than Maul, so the examples don't compare. Also, I only said Nihilus was capable of reacting, not equivalent or better. Also, mind you, Vader is faster than his normal self here, as well, by a noticeable margin.
Here goes another failed attempt at making me look like a hypocrite. Clearly, you failed to grasp my intentions. I said that Nihilus being vastly more powerful than Maul meant he was probably capable of reacting. Talzin being only somewhat more powerful than Vader is likely a negligible difference, since the scaling between power and speed is quite high, and Vader is also amped here, as well, so both his power and speed increases.
By the way, what I noticed was that Talzin needed time to charge up her Lightning. Vader could strike her down in that time, given that he is also amped here.
Being in a brand new body never mattered when Palpatine took over his clones, or when Vitiate possessed his hosts.
Right. Because being in a cloned body of yourself is the same as going into a body of a completely different build, age, gender ect.
Vader has a knack for catching targets off-guard
What relevance does this have?
and Talzin is only somewhat, if not only slightly, more powerful than Vader as of RotJ, not exponentially.
You're severely underrating Talzin. Let's see Vader hold up the full might of Sidious' Force Lightning for numerous comic panels. Talzin is exponentially more powerful than Vader.
Talzin is fast approaching Sidious in power, as per her fight with him, which was very even for a long time. In contrast, Sidious has casually ragdolled Maul and Savage, and casually ragdolled Dooku from across the galaxy - Maul and Savage combined being more powerful than Vader, Dooku approaching him in power. Talzin is several tiers more powerful than Vader.
Nihilus is vastly more powerful than Maul, so the examples don't compare.
But they do.
Also, mind you, Vader is faster than his normal self here, as well, by a noticeable margin.
That he is, and he's already fast enough to blitz Talzin beyond her comprehension. By being better than her at augmenting his Force speed.
Right. Because being in a cloned body of yourself is the same as going into a body of a completely different build, age, gender ect.
These are replicas of Palpatine's body, aren't they? And not completely different build, age, etc:
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You also ignored Vitiate's case, because you knew it went against your claims.
What relevance does this have?
Unless we submit that catching your opponents off-guard is not relevant to a fight, then yes, it is relevant.
You're severely underrating Talzin. Let's see Vader hold up the full might of Sidious' Force Lightning for numerous comic panels. Talzin is exponentially more powerful than Vader.
Talzin held up to Palpatine's Lightning but was still losing, as compared to Yoda, who stalemated Sidious's Lightning until neither of them could control it. And Yoda's power feats are not exponentially greater than Vader's. Vader has collapsed cathedrals whilst injured and decades before his prime, whereas Yoda has manipulated two several-hundred-meter-vessels and pushed them against each other with strain. And Vader is amped here as well.
Talzin is fast approaching Sidious in power, as per her fight with him, which was very even for a long time. In contrast, Sidious has casually ragdolled Maul and Savage, and casually ragdolled Dooku from across the galaxy - Maul and Savage combined being more powerful than Vader, Dooku approaching him in power. Talzin is several tiers more powerful than Vader.
No, it doesn't make her "fast approaching". None of her power showings are approaching, and just because she lasted against Sidious for however long it was (and IIRC, Maul gave her his strength for some of the fight) doesn't make her several tiers above Vader in power. Galen Marek was able to hold back Sidious's Lightning for some time, but that hardly means he was several tiers more powerful than Vader, who has TKed him and even briefly Choked him. Even Luke held back Palpatine's Lightning very briefly before being overwhelmed, and he didn't even compare to Vader at this point, let alone a considerably amped Vader.
But they do.
You mean because you want them to and because you ignored context? Only in that case, yes, they do.
That he is, and he's already fast enough to blitz Talzin beyond her comprehension. By being better than her at augmenting his Force speed.
You can't say Talzin was losing from Palpatine's lightning, as Dooku was shooting lightning at her as well , and the possibility Maul gave Talzin extra strength makes it even more complicated .
These are replicas of Palpatine's body, aren't they? And not completely different build, age, etc:
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You also ignored Vitiate's case, because you knew it went against your claims.
They are clones, he'd be used to being in the bodies.
However, after reading SoD again I can submit to being wrong about being in Dooku's body hindering Talzin. I mean, it wouldn't exactly be walk in the park for her, but Maul himself states that Talzin is in full control of Dooku. She's then subsequently disarmed by Sidious in three blows.
Talzin held up to Palpatine's Lightning but was still losing, as compared to Yoda, who stalemated Sidious's Lightning until neither of them could control it. And Yoda's power feats are not exponentially greater than Vader's. Vader has collapsed cathedrals whilst injured and decades before his prime, whereas Yoda has manipulated two several-hundred-meter-vessels and pushed them against each other with strain. And Vader is amped here as well.
No, it doesn't make her "fast approaching". None of her power showings are approaching, and just because she lasted against Sidious for however long it was (and IIRC, Maul gave her his strength for some of the fight) doesn't make her several tiers above Vader in power.
Let's review the fight.
No, it doesn't make her "fast approaching". None of her power showings are approaching, and just because she lasted against Sidious for however long it was (and IIRC, Maul gave her his strength for some of the fight) doesn't make her several tiers above Vader in power. Galen Marek was able to hold back Sidious's Lightning for some time, but that hardly means he was several tiers more powerful than Vader, who has TKed him and even briefly Choked him. Even Luke held back Palpatine's Lightning very briefly before being overwhelmed, and he didn't even compare to Vader at this point, let alone a considerably amped Vader.
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1-5 are irrelevant.
6: They begin clashing lightning.
7: Sidious starts gaining an advantage, Maul begins reinforcing Talzin.
8: Dooku reinforces Sidious, Talzin throws up a barrier which holds them off.
9: Continues holding up the barrier.
10: Directly TK's Maul onto a ship while holding up the barrier.
11: Grievous steps in the middle and stabs her.
Again, she held up her defences against a full-out Sidious for a considerable period of time, although admittedly her lightning was pushed back fairly quickly - although not that quickly. She even held up her defences while throwing Maul with the Force, which would take a serious amount of power to do altogether, even if Maul was distracted somewhat, because of the sheer amount of multi-tasking going on.
Your comparison between Yoda and Vader doesn't work. They have comparable power feats when you match them up like that, but then Yoda stalemating Sidious is a far greater power feat than anything Vader has done. Sidious, who again, has ragdolled Maul and Savage who are collectively stronger than Vader, and has ragdolled Dooku from across the galaxy effortlessly, who is approaching Vader in power. Sidious could ragdoll Vader without any real strain, and both Yoda and Talzin held their own against Sidious in a contest of power (Yoda stalemating him, Talzin holding him off for a long period of time, even him and Dooku at the same time). That is why I consider Talzin to be significantly more powerful than Vader.
Granted, Vader is amped here, so Talzin wouldn't stomp Vader in a contest of power. But she would still beat him in due time, and he can't hold up to her Emerald Lightning.
Galen Marek was able to hold back Sidious's Lightning for some time, but that hardly means he was several tiers more powerful than Vader, who has TKed him and even briefly Choked him. Even Luke held back Palpatine's Lightning very briefly before being overwhelmed, and he didn't even compare to Vader at this point, let alone a considerably amped Vader.
How long did Galen hold it up for, and what is the context of Vader breaking Galen's Force Shields? I don't remember it being as cut and dry as that.
Luke held it back for something like a second. I'd expect that much from most people. Not to mention, that wasn't even Sidious' full powered lightning - he was torturing Luke.
No, he's not, unless Talzin is caught off-guard.
He is. Talzin lacks speed feats.
Why would she be caught off-guard by anything other than his sheer speed?
They are clones, he'd be used to being in the bodies.
No, they're not. They have different age, constitution etc.
You, again, didn't respond to Vitiate, because you knew it worked against your point.
However, after reading SoD again I can submit to being wrong about being in Dooku's body hindering Talzin. I mean, it wouldn't exactly be walk in the park for her, but Maul himself states that Talzin is in full control of Dooku. She's then subsequently disarmed by Sidious in three blows.
Then that's cleared.
1-5 are irrelevant.
6: They begin clashing lightning.
7: Sidious starts gaining an advantage, Maul begins reinforcing Talzin.
8: Dooku reinforces Sidious, Talzin throws up a barrier which holds them off.
9: Continues holding up the barrier.
10: Directly TK's Maul onto a ship while holding up the barrier.
11: Grievous steps in the middle and stabs her.
Agreed with all this, but that means Talzin only lasted a page/a few panels before Maul was helping her. Talzin being able to last against both is a decent showing, but after she threw Maul away, she was bent over in a position that, to me, is tantamount to losing anyway. And then Grievous kills her.
It's a good showing, but we need to decide where it places her in power.
Again, she held up her defences against a full-out Sidious for a considerable period of time, although admittedly her lightning was pushed back fairly quickly - although not that quickly. She even held up her defences while throwing Maul with the Force, which would take a serious amount of power to do altogether, even if Maul was distracted somewhat, because of the sheer amount of multi-tasking going on.
She lasted a page without Maul's help, and then she got supported and it was about even. Then she threw away Maul and still managed to block Dooku and Palpatine's attacks briefly, which is a good showing, but we can see that it required maximum effort and that it was more or less her sacrificing her own life.
Your comparison between Yoda and Vader doesn't work. They have comparable power feats when you match them up like that, but then Yoda stalemating Sidious is a far greater power feat than anything Vader has done. Sidious, who again, has ragdolled Maul and Savage who are collectively stronger than Vader, and has ragdolled Dooku from across the galaxy effortlessly, who is approaching Vader in power. Sidious could ragdoll Vader without any real strain, and both Yoda and Talzin held their own against Sidious in a contest of power (Yoda stalemating him, Talzin holding him off for a long period of time, even him and Dooku at the same time). That is why I consider Talzin to be significantly more powerful than Vader.
Not really. My point is less the fact that Yoda isn't significantly more powerful than Vader, but that holding back Lightning has a different scaling to raw power. Galen Marek is only Vader-class in power, yet he held back Palpatine's Lightning long enough for his friends to escape.
Granted, Vader is amped here, so Talzin wouldn't stomp Vader in a contest of power. But she would still beat him in due time, and he can't hold up to her Emerald Lightning.
Vader being amped is a considerable edge on his part. So it's a matter of who hits first.
@shootingnova: Welp, Nova, I agree with everything you said in that post. Mostly. I think I see Talzin as a bit more powerful than you do in relation to Vader, but that's essentially because I can't see Vader erecting a barrier of energy to repel the full force of Sidious' lightning, and I don't see any of his other power showings as rivaling/approaching to that. If Sidious was a 10 in power, Talzin would be an 8.5 while Vader is a 7. That's just how I see it at the moment.
I have a feeling that debate got heated there, so I'm just putting it out there that I have no bad blood or grudges after this :p
@shootingnova: Is it for sure Maul gave his strength to Talzin ? We can't really be sure right ?
Normally there's like green magic if powers are being transfered ...
Also you didn't answer the fact Dooku weighs twice as much, also Talzin fully controlling Dooku doesn't mean she has experience with his body / weapon .
And being in full control doesn't mean she isn't limited mentally ...
One thing on the Talzin/Windu fight is that we can presume Mace isn't trying to kill her, while she almost definitely is. She's amped, he's not, yadayada. Vader is amped here too, he's a bad@ss,, and he is a better character.
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