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Posted by SWA2point0 (189 posts) 3 months, 5 days ago

Poll: Mordor vs Skaven Under Empire (17 votes)

Mordor Wins easily 24%
Mordor Wins barely 0%
Skaven Wins barely 18%
Skaven Wins easily 29%
Could go either way 29%

Instead of fighting humanity, the forces of Mordor rally like they did in Return of the King to lay siege to Minas Tirith. Mordor has already wiped most of the other human forces as has rallied the Isengard, Dol Guldur, and Mount Gundabad forces. ( yes the hobbit forces and those types of orcs, ogres, trolls, etc are being fielded ). They rally their forces on the other of the swap before pushing into Gondor to wipe out the last human kingdom that is a threat to Mordor. However, while Mordor finished off all the other little human kingdoms. A portal had opened and transported the entire skavenblight military into Gondor. They wiped the humans easily caught off guard and began to make it a huge settlement.

All clans in the warhammer now race to this new portal to claim more land for themselves. However, the great horned rat declares this world to be taken over in his name and appoints Thanquol and his voice ( End Times basically for the skaven ). With that said all clans have united to take over the world. The great horned rat also says that this land called mordor, has so much warpstone that they will all be swimming in it. This means all skaven leaders are forced to work together like they did in the end times to over throw Mordor.

Lastly, after achieving the one true ring Sauron has taken his physical form once more and leads his forces along with his various generals of all armies including Azog. Now that the tables are set both sides square up and begin launching plans of attack against one another. Due to Skaven intel they have an idea whom they are fighting, while Sauron doesn't as he has yet to invade the land.

Who wins? Map down below,

Mordor Empire ( numbers have increased 3x's that of the movie's numbers given to us as the starting force )

Image result for Armies of mordor wallpaper

Skaven Under Empire

Image result for Skaven under empire wallpaper

Rules

  • Mordor wins by taking ahold of Minas Tirith of course assuming that the Skaven own no other major foothold.
  • Skaven win by capturing Mordor's territories and defeating the orcs and their master once and for all.
  • Horned Rat is not allowed to be in the fight for obvious reasons, and this is only physical form Sauron; no entity god person thing.
  • Couple of days worth of prep as they both rally and approach one another
  • No BFR.
  • All lore allowed for both sides!
  • No outside interference.

Again environment is Lord of the rings world.

If you have any questions feel free to ask.

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#2 Posted by FullMetalEmprah (4735 posts) - - Show Bio

The Skaven should win without too much trouble tbh. The increased numbers for Mordor help but honestly Skaven have plenty of their own fodder as well as vastly superior technology. Things like Ratling Guns would tear most of Mordor's troops apart, even the trolls. Sauron is a beast but him fighting means that he runs the risk of losing the Ring again, so it's actually best if he stays back for the most part. And even then the Skaven have ways of dealing with him. The Nazgul however are an advantage for Mordor and they'd definitely do some damage since they cause terror but they can't turn it on their own. Mumakil are also really useful here, although they would have to be used wisely to avoid being taken out by things like Warp-Lightning Cannons.

Honestly while I think the Skaven still win Clan Skryre in general should probably be restricted. Mordor really can't answer all their tech. If they aren't involved then Mordor might not win but the Skaven will work for it a bit.

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#3 Edited by AbigorGodofWar (274 posts) - - Show Bio

Mordor takes this if no horned rat and the fact that warpstone stores would be limited.

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#4 Posted by SWA2point0 (189 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by MetalJimmor (6543 posts) - - Show Bio

The Skaven have a massive advantage in terms of actual armies. The only thing I can see posing a serious issue for them is the fact that Nazgul and Sauron generate passive auras of intense fear that can bring lesser Men to their knees and skaven are... Well. skaven are skaven.

Sauron also wouldn't fight the skaven upfront if he could help it. The way Sauron handles this is by appearing before the skaven as a mysterious and immensely powerful Greyseer and promising the Council of Thirteen rings of incredible power that they can use to overthrow the council and become the true ruler of all rats. Skaven being naturally greedy, backstabby, traitorous beings would fall prey to Sauron's brand of manipulation extremely easily.

I'll give it a week before all of skavendom is ruled by immortal rat-like nazgul wearing rings of warpstone infused with Sauron's will.

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#6 Posted by JwwProd (20864 posts) - - Show Bio

@fullmetalemprah said:

The Skaven should win without too much trouble tbh. The increased numbers for Mordor help but honestly Skaven have plenty of their own fodder as well as vastly superior technology. Things like Ratling Guns would tear most of Mordor's troops apart, even the trolls. Sauron is a beast but him fighting means that he runs the risk of losing the Ring again, so it's actually best if he stays back for the most part. And even then the Skaven have ways of dealing with him. The Nazgul however are an advantage for Mordor and they'd definitely do some damage since they cause terror but they can't turn it on their own. Mumakil are also really useful here, although they would have to be used wisely to avoid being taken out by things like Warp-Lightning Cannons.

Honestly while I think the Skaven still win Clan Skryre in general should probably be restricted. Mordor really can't answer all their tech. If they aren't involved then Mordor might not win but the Skaven will work for it a bit.

This.

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#7 Posted by WarlordEternal (4997 posts) - - Show Bio

The Skaven have a massive advantage in terms of actual armies. The only thing I can see posing a serious issue for them is the fact that Nazgul and Sauron generate passive auras of intense fear that can bring lesser Men to their knees and skaven are... Well. skaven are skaven.

Sauron also wouldn't fight the skaven upfront if he could help it. The way Sauron handles this is by appearing before the skaven as a mysterious and immensely powerful Greyseer and promising the Council of Thirteen rings of incredible power that they can use to overthrow the council and become the true ruler of all rats. Skaven being naturally greedy, backstabby, traitorous beings would fall prey to Sauron's brand of manipulation extremely easily.

I'll give it a week before all of skavendom is ruled by immortal rat-like nazgul wearing rings of warpstone infused with Sauron's will.

This

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#8 Posted by FullMetalEmprah (4735 posts) - - Show Bio

@swa2point0: I mean he's right in terms of the warpstone aspect since that's a lot of land to take over but I'm assuming in this case they brought enough with them for a long campaign.

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#9 Posted by FullMetalEmprah (4735 posts) - - Show Bio

@metaljimmor: Actually since this is the movie version of Mordor I'd argue that it has much better fodder considering the orcs in RotK were capable of taking on disciplined troops outfitted in plate armor and clan rats get taken out in droves by human soldiers of the same caliber. It might have just been Uruks but iirc normal orcs were capable of it as well. Not to mention they have the forces of Isengard here and I'm assuming Rhun too. If it weren't for Clan Skryre I actually would argue the Mordor presented here isn't as outclassed as one might think, it's just their tech and sorcery are too much. Remove them and I actually think we have a good fight here.

Although yeah, Skaven are Sauron's dream come true lol, easy to corrupt and manipulate. It would be cool to see what Sauron would do with warpstone tbh.

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#10 Posted by decaf_wizard (17006 posts) - - Show Bio

The Skaven should win without too much trouble tbh. The increased numbers for Mordor help but honestly Skaven have plenty of their own fodder as well as vastly superior technology. Things like Ratling Guns would tear most of Mordor's troops apart, even the trolls. Sauron is a beast but him fighting means that he runs the risk of losing the Ring again, so it's actually best if he stays back for the most part. And even then the Skaven have ways of dealing with him. The Nazgul however are an advantage for Mordor and they'd definitely do some damage since they cause terror but they can't turn it on their own. Mumakil are also really useful here, although they would have to be used wisely to avoid being taken out by things like Warp-Lightning Cannons.

Honestly while I think the Skaven still win Clan Skryre in general should probably be restricted. Mordor really can't answer all their tech. If they aren't involved then Mordor might not win but the Skaven will work for it a bit.

good breakdown

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#11 Posted by SWA2point0 (189 posts) - - Show Bio

@fullmetalemprah: Actually all lore allowed as i had in the rules this isn't just movie version

@warlordeternal: @metaljimmor: I'm going for more of a head on fight or an actual war not necessary a wins or a means by corrupting and so on. I mean they don't have to have huge fights and they can certainly surround one another, but yeah. This is more of a war like there has been within all three ages. :)

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#12 Edited by FullMetalEmprah (4735 posts) - - Show Bio

@swa2point0: That helps Mordor out a bit for stuff like the Nazgul, although it's still best to use movie orcs because in the books any human warrior worth their salt could kill multiple regular orcs without much trouble. Uruk-Hai are also improved in the movies because they have plate armor and I don't believe in the books they originally had that.

By the way has Durin's Bane pledged itself to Sauron in this alternate history or did Gandalf already kill him? If he is here then he'd actually do a lot of damage to the Skaven if used right.

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#13 Posted by SWA2point0 (189 posts) - - Show Bio

@fullmetalemprah: Durin's Bane is welcome to help balance out. It's not like the vermin couldn't summon Verminlords as well to help counter that. Also yeah whatever helps mordor out is what I'm going for. Nazgul are for sure welcomed I like to see the terror they cause.

I think mordor has a lot of terror on their side which helps balance out the skaven's tech and own magics as well.

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#14 Edited by FullMetalEmprah (4735 posts) - - Show Bio

@swa2point0: Honestly? Mordor really doesn't have an answer for Skryre's tech. I mean, Skaven are cowards but they have legitimate sniper teams, portable gatling guns, mortars, etc. With Skryre gone Mordor has a chance in a war, with them they really don't, the tech difference is just too high(they even equip clan rats with pistols sometimes). It also doesn't help that magic in LotR in general is a lot more subtle overall, with less emphasis on destruction.

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#15 Posted by Killerwasp (17444 posts) - - Show Bio

@swa2point0: Honestly? Mordor really doesn't have an answer for Skryre's tech. I mean, Skaven are cowards but they have legitimate sniper teams, portable gatling guns, mortars, etc. With Skryre gone Mordor has a chance in a war, with them they really don't, the tech difference is just too high(they even equip clan rats with pistols sometimes). It also doesn't help that magic in LotR in general is a lot more subtle overall, with less emphasis on destruction.

As much as skyre is important, no. Plagues and pest would destroy the orcs faster tahn skryres tech would. Skaven have the tech but they can be easily routed and drop that tech in the same way queek kills a grey seer. Orcs have enough siege and mobile siege thanks to Trolls to counter it per say. Plus they have air superiority as well. Something those warp cannons would struggle with. I'm not saying Skryre is useless, but tbh all clans are needed here. Moulder for the mountain sized monsters, eshin for back line assassinations, pest for durable and non cowardly front line troops along with a mix of their own siege and magics, clan skryre for their tech and magics.

Imo with the huge boost in numbers, the Skaven will struggle at first, but since they are super united, this is going help them hold the front. A lot of Skaven are going to die compared to the orcs, due to weapons and tactics, but they got ways of over coming it like underground attacks, various artillery peices, monsters, leadership and morale. Skaven are cowards and a lot of them will flee, but they have somewhere to flee to and it will be a nightmare for mordor to try and take the city. I have a feeling in the open field the skaven will flee and regroup cause that's what skaven do. However, ocne their backs against the wall they are going to fight and could pull out some minor victories that stall mordor and if this happens they could get cocky and push on again, it's going to go back and fourth for a while until either than is dead, skaven unity is dead, or mordor loses its leader once more.

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#16 Edited by FullMetalEmprah (4735 posts) - - Show Bio

@killerwasp: Not really. That tech is going to rip the forces of Mordor apart, automatic weapons tend to do that to tightly packed formations of infantry. So do flamethrowers, both of which Skryre possesses. Not to mention the warplock jezzails that will easily be able to take out Mordor's leaderships aside from the Nazgul, Durin's Bane, and possibly Saruman. And even then, if arrows can hurt fellbeasts then the Skaven's ammo should have no problem at all when it comes to shooting them down. And the warp cannons aren't really there for taking out aerial targets, they're there to cause havoc to Mordor's larger creatures and large formations of infantry.

Skaven are cowards but normal orcs aren't that much better. They've never faced the likes of firearms before, much less automatic ones. They've never had to go against something like a doomwheel, and the Skaven have screaming bells to help with moral. I also fail to see how anyone is getting close to a Grey Seer other than Durin's Bane, Saruman, or possibly one of the Nine. Anyone else is getting fried.

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#17 Posted by WarlordEternal (4997 posts) - - Show Bio

@swa2point0: Ah Okay

@killerwasp: Those are some very good points, though if all lore is allowed (books and film) The orcs might have some answers. Given the Skavens nature, it may be difficult for them to overtake the Orcs if the Nazgul are present. Their ability to instill sheer terror could utterly cripple Skaven infantry. If/when the Skaven choose to retreat into underground territories, The orcs could use Wereworms to reach them quickly.

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#18 Posted by WarlordEternal (4997 posts) - - Show Bio

@swa2point0: If all lore is allowed, Does that mean the MiddleEarth games too?

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#19 Posted by Killerwasp (17444 posts) - - Show Bio

@fullmetalemprah:

Not really. That tech is going to rip the forces of Mordor apart, automatic weapons tend to do that to tightly packed formations of infantry.

Clan pest already proved to be too much for clan skyre and they had nothing but meat shields in those tunnels. Clan pest has caused more damage to the Skaven under empire than anyone else for both civil wars. Orcs are going to get ripped, but no one says they're gonna go out there and march straight like that the op did say Sauron can approach the city anyway they like.

So do flamethrowers, both of which Skryre possesses. Not to mention the warplock jezzails that will easily be able to take out Mordor's leaderships aside from the Nazgul, Durin's Bane, and possibly Saruman.

I know those, but I find it harder for warplocks to do their job otherwise clan eshin wouldn't be needed, in which they are and have always been used to turn the tides of war. Not Skyre's tech.

And even then, if arrows can hurt fellbeasts then the Skaven's ammo should have no problem at all when it comes to shooting them down. And the warp cannons aren't really there for taking out aerial targets, they're there to cause havoc to Mordor's larger creatures and large formations of infantry.

True on ariael targets, also Skaven guns are not going to hurt those beasts unless they land. Nothing range wise is going to hurt those beasts besides warplocks and ratlings. One is super inaccurate though and the other could but may miss and so on.

Skaven are cowards but normal orcs aren't that much better. They've never faced the likes of firearms before, much less automatic ones. They've never had to go against something like a doomwheel, and the Skaven have screaming bells to help with moral. I also fail to see how anyone is getting close to a Grey Seer other than Durin's Bane, Saruman, or possibly one of the Nine. Anyone else is getting fried.

Doomwheels would be an issue, but they're likely to get stomped by an elephant or a few heavy trolls. ( assuming they dont let off a fire before hand )

Normal orcs aren't necessary cowards, they flee when they're about to get destroyed in which the a massive cav force on the field charging them would cause most men to flee tbh. I'd rate an orc slightly above a skaven clan rat in all aspects. With someone like Sauron on the field though? They're morale isn't going to sink super easy as well.

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#20 Posted by Six-Deuce (1276 posts) - - Show Bio

One clan basically stalemated Nagash who is probably not much inferior to Sauron if at all. With the entire panoply of skaven clans this is a steamroll. Skaven would hardly notice mordor in fact as they spread out. A clan eshin with a warp blade kills sauron if other means do not and plenty of ways to trash nazgul. Army of the dead is the only thing that might make a real difference in this fight unless you go back to the silmarillion. I like that people raised the prospect of council of 13 nazgul and tempting the skaven....definitely correct about thier nature. Only think is the horned rat is kinda indirectly involved here and sauron is in his movie form so wont be getting any elf smiths to forge him more or taking the form of a rat to trick the skaven. I could see an earlier sauron pulling this to great effect.

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#21 Posted by Killerwasp (17444 posts) - - Show Bio

@warlordeternal said:

@swa2point0: Ah Okay

@killerwasp: Those are some very good points, though if all lore is allowed (books and film) The orcs might have some answers. Given the Skavens nature, it may be difficult for them to overtake the Orcs if the Nazgul are present. Their ability to instill sheer terror could utterly cripple Skaven infantry. If/when the Skaven choose to retreat into underground territories, The orcs could use Wereworms to reach them quickly.

Agreed. However those worms would get torn by some of the larger skaven tools and beasts

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#22 Edited by Killerwasp (17444 posts) - - Show Bio

@six-deuce: One clan did not. The entire skaven under empire stalemated Nagash who was able to win due to rezzing undead skaven, orcs, etc. Just letting you know.

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#23 Edited by FullMetalEmprah (4735 posts) - - Show Bio

@killerwasp: The difference in this case is that Skryre isn't alone here, they have the might of all the other clans to back them up. I'm not saying to restrict Skryre because they solo this version of Mordor, I'm saying that the advantages Mordor has Skryre counters for the most part. Other clans can deal with them too but it's easier to fight a tough monster with your own rather than a cannon sitting safely in the back. Not to mention, Gondor in general seems pretty defensible, especially Minas Tirith.

Honestly the two have different roles really. Jezzails are more at home sniping orc captains from some hill on the battlefield, they aren't really supposed to end wars. While Eshin would rather slink through the night, kill them in their tents, poison them, ambush supply routes, all the basic sneaky ninja stuff that can cripple armies.

Well, fellbeasts aren't going to die from one bullet unless it hits their heart or head, but if one hits their wing or several hit the body that would cripple one quite a bit. They are pretty fast though so it would take a lot of dakka to tag them.

Yeah but honestly I doubt a doomwheel crew would go near a mumakil in the first place unless they had a death wish, although a troll could possibly intercept one.

Also you're right, I remember now, it's goblins that are cowards, not orcs. Although orcs really aren't the bravest creatures around either. And yeah even regular orcs are better than clan rats if we use the movie version like I said earlier. They could take on professional troops whereas most clan rats cannot.

Sauron is awesome and would keep morale in check but I wouldn't want him in combat. Despite his awesome power there are too many ways he could lose the Ring again.

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#24 Posted by Six-Deuce (1276 posts) - - Show Bio

@killerwasp: source? I do not believe the entire skaven under-empire converged on naggashizzar.

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#25 Posted by MetalJimmor (6543 posts) - - Show Bio

@swa2point0:

The thing is Sauron's wars weren't won by virtue of his martial strength. Sauron is The Deceiver. He isn't going to try and crush the skaven the way Morgoth would.

When the Numenoreans came Sauron outright surrendered after Numenor crushed him in the field. From the position of a prisoner of war he rose in rank to become the chief adviser of the king of Numenor himself using nothing but trickery, deception, and manipulation. Eru Illuvatar had to step in and sink the kingdom of Numenor because Sauron had twisted them into something too evil to be saved.

Before that Sauron's grand plan in the Second Age was to pass around the Rings of Power and then bind all the world's rulers to his service. The plan only failed because the elves saw through his ploy at the last second and removed their rings before he power could take them followed by the first Numenorian invasion.

By the Third Age everyone on Middle Earth were aware of Sauron's nature and he still managed to sway Saruman to his side and nearly conquer Rohan through poisoned words and deception.

It isn't IC for Sauron to fight a war with direct might unless he has no other option. Even if he is fighting a war it is entirely within his character and his bag of tricks to turn his enemies against one another either by promising them power (Saruman) or by making them realize there is no hope and driving them to madness (Denethor). If Sauron can't corrupt the skaven for whatever reason he'd at the very least incite a civil war between them. It is his Modus Operandi to utilize deception to overcome his foes.

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#26 Posted by Cypher0120 (664 posts) - - Show Bio

Not quite sure how corrupting Skaven would be.

They're always in a constant civil war. Last time Nagash tried to pacify them with a pseudo-alliance, that backfired just as he was about to complete a goal.

The Horned Rat may not be allowed, but his Verminlords would be hell to even try manipulating. They're the ones most suited Gainst Sauron's more esoteric Servants.

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#27 Posted by Killerwasp (17444 posts) - - Show Bio

@six-deuce: skaven rulebook

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#28 Posted by Killerwasp (17444 posts) - - Show Bio

@fullmetalemprah:

The difference in this case is that Skryre isn't alone here, they have the might of all the other clans to back them up. I'm not saying to restrict Skryre because they solo this version of Mordor, I'm saying that the advantages Mordor has Skryre counters for the most part. Other clans can deal with them too but it's easier to fight a tough monster with your own rather than a cannon sitting safely in the back. Not to mention, Gondor in general seems pretty defensible, especially Minas Tirith.

True, but im just saying Skryre is needed due to their range abilities as well. Otherwise all you got is ninjas with throwing stars or slings with pebbles which.... skaven are.... rather weak when it comes to missile projectiles. Mordor doesn't need to be super teched out to compete, they have magics, fearful monsters, wraiths and various other tools that will help them fight the skaven.

Honestly the two have different roles really. Jezzails are more at home sniping orc captains from some hill on the battlefield, they aren't really supposed to end wars. While Eshin would rather slink through the night, kill them in their tents, poison them, ambush supply routes, all the basic sneaky ninja stuff that can cripple armies.

I know what they are lol, but im saying the warplocks are the only threat to the sky.

Well, fellbeasts aren't going to die from one bullet unless it hits their heart or head, but if one hits their wing or several hit the body that would cripple one quite a bit. They are pretty fast though so it would take a lot of dakka to tag them.

If mordor moves like it should as we see in the movies, the fell beasts are gonna have free reign, and I doubt mordor is dumb enough to let their fellbeasts not be shock value troops in dealing with heavily fortified ranged areas

Yeah but honestly I doubt a doomwheel crew would go near a mumakil in the first place unless they had a death wish, although a troll could possibly intercept one.

True, but that Mumakil is charging in regardless. Doomwheels could be mobile artillery, but they are best used to kill infantry and blend smaller monsters down. Ogres and Trolls ( armored versions for sure ) will have no issue slapping the dogshit out of those things.

Also you're right, I remember now, it's goblins that are cowards, not orcs. Although orcs really aren't the bravest creatures around either. And yeah even regular orcs are better than clan rats if we use the movie version like I said earlier. They could take on professional troops whereas most clan rats cannot.

Yeah, and orcs are cowards normally, but with their master alive... yeah they wont break

Sauron is awesome and would keep morale in check but I wouldn't want him in combat. Despite his awesome power there are too many ways he could lose the Ring again.

Agreed sauron has to be what the locust queen from gears of war is. A morale booster with speeches and stuff maybe walk in and do some action just to raise morale as well. With Azog leading the way and so on, the orcs can very well fight to the last man ( we see this in the hobbit when fighting the dwarfs )

I'm not saying the Skaven don't take it, and by all means normally they'd lolstomp the forces of mordor along with other sci fis, but mordor has the means to put up a fight via terror, beasts, and even though its simple tech, they still got tech and mass loads of it to throw back rocks to disrupt skaven formations and so on. The saving grace isn't clan skyre it's the grey seers that use their magics to zap stuff along with plague monks to cause diseases.

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#29 Posted by SWA2point0 (189 posts) - - Show Bio

@warlordeternal said:

@swa2point0: If all lore is allowed, Does that mean the MiddleEarth games too?

Yes.

Not quite sure how corrupting Skaven would be.

They're always in a constant civil war. Last time Nagash tried to pacify them with a pseudo-alliance, that backfired just as he was about to complete a goal.

The Horned Rat may not be allowed, but his Verminlords would be hell to even try manipulating. They're the ones most suited Gainst Sauron's more esoteric Servants.

End times skaven means they aren't fighting as much nor on a civil war.

@swa2point0:

The thing is Sauron's wars weren't won by virtue of his martial strength. Sauron is The Deceiver. He isn't going to try and crush the skaven the way Morgoth would.

When the Numenoreans came Sauron outright surrendered after Numenor crushed him in the field. From the position of a prisoner of war he rose in rank to become the chief adviser of the king of Numenor himself using nothing but trickery, deception, and manipulation. Eru Illuvatar had to step in and sink the kingdom of Numenor because Sauron had twisted them into something too evil to be saved.

Before that Sauron's grand plan in the Second Age was to pass around the Rings of Power and then bind all the world's rulers to his service. The plan only failed because the elves saw through his ploy at the last second and removed their rings before he power could take them followed by the first Numenorian invasion.

By the Third Age everyone on Middle Earth were aware of Sauron's nature and he still managed to sway Saruman to his side and nearly conquer Rohan through poisoned words and deception.

It isn't IC for Sauron to fight a war with direct might unless he has no other option. Even if he is fighting a war it is entirely within his character and his bag of tricks to turn his enemies against one another either by promising them power (Saruman) or by making them realize there is no hope and driving them to madness (Denethor). If Sauron can't corrupt the skaven for whatever reason he'd at the very least incite a civil war between them. It is his Modus Operandi to utilize deception to overcome his foes.

This is good to note, I was just curious if sauron's genius mind and his military might could though. That's all. :)

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#30 Edited by WarlordEternal (4997 posts) - - Show Bio

Since all lore means games as well, Mordor wins.

They already have 3x the army they had in the film with the addition of Sauron taking form, Durin's Bane, Nazgul, Azog, Bolg, Gothmog, Trolls, Ogres Wargs, War Bats, Wereworms, and any warmachine seen.

The games give them the addition of Carnin's Bane, The Black Hand, The Tower, The Hammer, Necromancers, Caragors, Graugs, Drakes (lesser dragons), flames weapons, poison weapons, cursed weapons, flame throwers, grappling hooks, flash bangs, grenades, and explosive arrows/spears

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#32 Posted by buildhare (8711 posts) - - Show Bio

Warp Lightning canons and tech help but the Skavens are going to rout with Sauron, Nazgul and Mumakil there. If the Alliance of Men and Elves were faltering with just Sauron there how long are the rats really going to hang around?

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#33 Posted by noah_ouellette (3721 posts) - - Show Bio

Sauron is the only issue. Find a way to stop him and they got it.

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#34 Posted by WarlordEternal (4997 posts) - - Show Bio

@noah_ouellette: Not necessarily. They'd still have to deal with the Nazgul, and each of them are naturally capable of instilling terror. Op has given them the addition of Durins Bane and thanks to the addition of the Middleearth games, Mordors forces are bolstered by a second Balrog and necromancers.

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#35 Posted by Killerwasp (17444 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut thoughts good sir?

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#36 Posted by Wut (7058 posts) - - Show Bio

@killerwasp: Skaven. You could give Mordor 10x the numbers they had and they'd still be hilariously outnumbered. End Times Than is a scary Than as he is no longer held back by his own cowardice and Than could certainly take on Durin's Bane and beat it [Or more likely summon Skreech Verminking and let Skreech deal with it]. Sauron isn't as big a threat as people make out, guy isn't some masterful fighter and never has been. Every time he has gotten into a melee scuffle, he has lost.

Skaven have more numbers, Skaven have vastly superior tech. Skaven have superior magic. This would be the Skaven's fight to lose.

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#37 Posted by MErulezall (3784 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: Some comments though say, that The Skaven could be corrupted and such as the fighting went on, could that be possible?

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#38 Posted by Wut (7058 posts) - - Show Bio

@merulezall: Depends on what you mean corrupted. On the whole? No. How skaven society works is rather brilliant, due to all the civil wars and what not they've had, the Horned Rat put in a new system where in order to become a member of the council, the ruling caste of the Skaven and leaders of the largest clans, you have to touch a black stone. If the Horned Rat finds you unworthy, he zaps you.

This is brilliant because no one would prefer this system more then the Skaven Councilmembers themselves because most skaven aren't going to be willing to take the test due to their very nature, so its useful in weeding out the.. unworthy. In the End Times, which this is being taken from, the Horned Rat outright stated that Than would be the big man on campus, and he did this through Skreech. Skreech is the Verminlord, he has Than's back, and the Skaven are utterly terrified of Skreech. The one skaven that isn't is Queek but he is insane so doesn't afraid of anyone.

While Sauron likely could convince some minor clan members to take their chances in fighting their superiors for more power, but at the end of the day, that is totally normal to Skaven society and doesn't really effect them at all. Clans fighting and undermining one another is called Tuesday, however, the presence of Than and Skreech throw a wrench into that as, at the end of the day, Skaven care about one thing. Themselves. No skaven is going to throw down his life for Sauron. They may think they are using Sauron as Sauron is using them, but the idea of some super loyal Skaven fanatics that will die for their new overlord kinda doesn't understand how Skaven work. They don't have the mental aptitude to do that.

You don't need all the Skaven to win, you couldn't fit them all into the battlefields and campaign anyways.

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#39 Posted by MErulezall (3784 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: I don't think that much skaven could fit through a portal though tbh considering its a small one I'd assume since it lies in Gondor and due to how gondor is set up, I doubt the Skaven could spread as quickly as they could with Mordor marching onto Gondor itself. you're right the numbers would work against the Orcs, but the Skaven haven't amassed as much yet unless you think other wise?

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#40 Posted by Wut (7058 posts) - - Show Bio

@merulezall: It says it transported the entire Skavenblight military, so I think they should do fine until all the other Skaven stream through. That would be the best chance for Mordor to win though, if they can push through and stop the portal.

I guess it depends on what 'huge settlement' they mean. I assumed they wiped out Minas Tirith. Without Minas Tirith the only real settlements of note left in Gondor is Dol Amroth and Pelargir, but Pelargir was taken by the Corsairs leaving just Dol Amroth so without Minas Tirith, Gondor is by and large out of the fight.

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#41 Posted by MErulezall (3784 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut:

It says it transported the entire Skavenblight military, so I think they should do fine until all the other Skaven stream through. That would be the best chance for Mordor to win though, if they can push through and stop the portal.

Exactly, Unless Skavenblight's military is stupidly large, well I'd imagine so because it is... skavenblight. How do you think Albino guard would do against the more tougher orc infantry?

Do you think Mordor could pull it off with closing the portal quick enough before the Skaven come through and overwhelm the orcs?

I guess it depends on what 'huge settlement' they mean. I assumed they wiped out Minas Tirith. Without Minas Tirith the only real settlements of note left in Gondor is Dol Amroth and Pelargir, but Pelargir was taken by the Corsairs leaving just Dol Amroth so without Minas Tirith, Gondor is by and large out of the fight.

I think he means they wiped the population of Minas Tirith and began to occupy it, and then the skaven realized there's a massive orc force coming their way so they, you know, ought to defend it. That's my take on it anyway which would make the most sense as the buildings would be left fairly in tact for natural defense.

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#42 Edited by Wut (7058 posts) - - Show Bio

@merulezall: I don't think Mordor could do it, no. Its a lot of land to cross and Skavenblight has so many skaven that in the hundreds, if not thousands, of tunnels leading to it there are so many skaven its hard to move [which they really like].

Albino Guard > Black Uruks >= Stormvermin > Uruk > Clanrat = Orc > Skaven Slave = Snaga Orc

Yeah, without Minas Tirith there isn't a Gondor anymore. So.. Gondor, as we know it, is gone. The only ones left are the fiefdoms led by Dol Amroth.

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#43 Posted by MErulezall (3784 posts) - - Show Bio
@wut said:

@merulezall: I don't think Mordor could do it, no. Its a lot of land to cross and Skavenblight has so many skaven that in the hundreds, if not thousands, of tunnels leading to it there are so many skaven its hard to move [which they really like].

Albino Guard > Black Uruks >= Stormvermin > Uruk > Clanrat = Orc > Skaven Slave = Snaga Orc

Yeah, without Minas Tirith there isn't a Gondor anymore. So.. Gondor, as we know it, is gone. The only ones left are the fiefdoms led by Dol Amroth.

I see, alright would it be glorious?

I thought Uruk on avg were better than stormvermin, infact I could of sworn you argued that the avg Uruk was better than the Stormvermin, what makes u change your mind?

Yeah like I said Im pretty sure Minas Tirith is still in tact.

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#44 Edited by Wut (7058 posts) - - Show Bio

@merulezall: Its a bunch of orcs and ratmen fighting with Nazguls on Felbeast being shot at by Ratling Gunners and Jezzails like it is some kind of AA defense as Rat Ogres and Trolls fight, imagine it'd be quite neat to see.

Equipment, mostly. I think Uruk's are braver, and I think a unit of Uruk's would beat a unit of Stormvermin, but I think a single Stormvermin would beat a single Uruk. Heavier armor + polearm vs lighter armor and sword and board usually has me siding against the sword and board. [I don't consider Uruks very good either, tho. So take from that what you will]

But that is the only major city I know of that still stands. Unless they wanna make it like... Dol Amroth which would make it even harder on Mordor since they now have to finish off Gondor and then march all the way to Dol Amroth which is further away?

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#45 Posted by MErulezall (3784 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: Now could the Nazgul cause mass terror, I know humanity had defenses well... archers to try and bring down the beasts, but their screams and the mere sight of them caused fear and panic amongst the Gondor ranks.

Tbh I only ask because i think it'd be awesome to see somewhat of two cowardly races prolly brave enough for the most part to slug it out. How would the Mordor High Command do though, do you think they're better than the Skaven Commanders or are they complete and utter trash?

I just remember a single Uruk, cleaving easily through some elves, but then again there were a few along with having that stamina and tankiness, but I could be wrong. I thought Stormvermin were trash to the point where even state troops beat them not with ease, but still beat them. I thought Uruk were more along the lines of state troops, for despite jobbing for the main caste they seemed to have done okay against elves and humans alike. However, the amount of stormvermin compared to the uruk in this might make this go either way or slightly leaning towards Stormvermin.

Naw, the battle is Minas Tirith, the only detail I think the thread needs is how big the portal is tbh, if its like a 2-3 man portal obviously the Skaven will lose, but if its huge...

Image result for This is where the fun begins gif

The real question is, who would win. A mighty Gobo,

Image result for goblin warhammer

Or a Brave Ewok!?

Image result for Ewok art

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#46 Posted by Wut (7058 posts) - - Show Bio

@merulezall: Depends. Believe it or not, scaring Skaven too much backfires. If you terrify a Skaven too much, instead of running, they enter a death frenzy [much like a rat backed into a corner] where they go berserk and are far more dangerous, Skaven are also instinctively bolstered by the presence of other Skaven nearby and undead isn't a new thing to them, even undead with unnaturally terrifying auras are things that have existed and they faced before [These are the guys who led a massive campaign against Nagash].

Skaven commanders tend to be pretty bad, but I also never found Uruk/Orc commanders to be all that amazing either, so... lots of throwing rabble at one another until someone breaks, I imagine.

Stormvermin are about as good as State Troop. But I'd also take an Empire Swordsmen over an Uruk, so that's not really saying anything just like I'd take an Empire Halberdier over a Stormvermin. When did an Uruk cleave through a bunch of elves? Usually when the Uruks go up against Elves, they got goomba stomped. Unless you are referring to Uruk-Hai which are different then Uruks? Only scene I recall such a thing happening was an Uruk-Hai berserker.

Can an Uruk do well? Sure, Queek is an example of this, but just like Skaven, and Stormvermin, they tend to do well by outnumbering their opponents.

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#47 Posted by MErulezall (3784 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut:

True, and I completely forgot about death frenzy, is this why they do so well against greenskins as well, especially since in that setting considering how huge they are?

You know that's the best kind of war right there, where your commanders are bricks and your troops are complete and utter dog shit Lol.

Maybe they are the Uruk Hai,

Example Helm's deep,

Animated GIFAnimated GIFAnimated GIF

Of course they do better against the humans, and if you look at the landscape, despite what we are seeing there isn't a lot of them dead on the ground which gives us the idea they faired fairly well when they got into combat.

Yeah this is Uruk Hai, how would Uruk Hai fair against stormvermin, unless they are the black Uruks you're talking about?

Fair enough.

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#48 Posted by Wut (7058 posts) - - Show Bio

@merulezall: Depends on the Orcs and how the Skaven are faring. If they are a ton of skaven they are pretty cocky. They also spend more time fighting Goblins then Orcs.

Yeah, that was a Uruk-Hai.

I listed Black Uruks and Uruks. XD I think a stormvermin could beat an Uruk, might tie with a Black Uruk but I'd give the Black Uruk the benefit of the doubt.

A Uruk-Hai would beat a Stormvermin pretty handily.

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#49 Posted by MErulezall (3784 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: Do the gobos tend to flee pretty fast, considering they don't have the numbers to fight the skaven? IIRC a lot of them end up surrendering and being turned into slaves.

Gotacha, okay, I wasn't quite sure. How would you rate a Uruk-Hai vs Albino Guard, pretty close?

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#50 Posted by Wut (7058 posts) - - Show Bio

@merulezall: Slavery goes both ways. Goblins and Orcs often take slaves of other races and Skaven are no exception. Goblins are much the same as Skaven, get braver the more of them there are.

Eh.. Depends... In theory, the Albino Guard should be better but their few showings aren't impressive, so I'd take a Uruk-Hai over one.

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