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#1 Edited by Penderor (5561 posts) - - Show Bio
  • Voldemort has and owns Elder Wand, just standard equipment for the rest.
  • No prep, morals off.
  • Everyone at their prime.
  • Battle takes place at Ministry of Magic.
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#2 Edited by Hulkage (5322 posts) - - Show Bio

Dumbledore stomps Grindewald, he beat him when Grindewald was in possesion of the elder wand with full control, Moody and Snape can hold off Voldemort until Dumbledore is done with Grindewald, then team stomps Voldemort

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#3 Posted by Penderor (5561 posts) - - Show Bio

@hulkage: I doubt that Moody and Snape can hold off someone who can do wandless magic. Voldemort disarmed Harry just by wave his hand. Saying that Dumbledore stomps Grindelwald is super bullsh*t. That fight was extremely long and Elder Wand made them almost equal. Besides, that fight is so suspect that we cannot be clear with this.

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#4 Posted by Hulkage (5322 posts) - - Show Bio

@penderor: Exactly, Elder Wand made them ALMOST equal. OP says no one has the Elder Wand so I see no reason why Grindewald doesnt get dealt with. Snape is powerful enough to stand to Voldemort for a few minutes with oody running interference. Then the trio take Voldemort down. Voldemort can use endless magic? In almost all of his fights he preferred his wand over anything elsr, even resorting to using other peoples wand in tge last book.

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#5 Edited by MrUnsmiley (2255 posts) - - Show Bio

Team. Snape's a prodigy himself, and Dumbledore was known to be the only person who could stand up to Grindelwald, who IIRC had the Elder Wand at the time and Dumbledore still beat him. Taking into consideration that Moody is head Auror and an excellent duelist by virtue of that fact, they should at least be able to hold off Voldemort long enough for Dumbledore to handle Grindelwald.

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#6 Edited by Penderor (5561 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrunsmiley: @hulkage: Do you want me to give second team the Elder Wand? I am not even trying to debate that Dumbledore fighting Grindelwald could have been a PIS.

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#7 Posted by MrUnsmiley (2255 posts) - - Show Bio

@penderor said:

@mrunsmiley: @hulkage: Do you want me to give second team the Elder Wand? I am not even trying to debate that Dumbledore fighting Grindelwald could have been a PIS.

Elder Wand might help, but only if Voldemort or Grindelwald are the masters of it. IIRC, Grindelwald was the master of the wand and still lost to Dumbledore. On the other hand, Voldemort wasn't the master of the Elder Wand, and was still able to duel 4 high-level wizards at once. Honestly, it depends on who you give it to.

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#8 Edited by Penderor (5561 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrunsmiley: No, it does not deppends on who will posses it. Voldy, he will be around equal with Dumbledore. If I will give it to Gellert, it would be like having two Voldemorts.

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#9 Posted by MrUnsmiley (2255 posts) - - Show Bio
@penderor said:

@mrunsmiley: No, it does not deppends on who will posses it. Voldy, he will be around equal with Dumbledore. If I will give it to Gellert, it would be like having two Voldemorts.

...No, it'd be the same as before. Grindelwald with the wand was still beaten by Dumbledore, and seeing as how Dumbledore here is older and more powerful than the Dumbledore who faced Grindelwald when they were young adults, the results would be the same, if not more so in Dumbledore's favor. Voldemort was already the 2nd most powerful wizard in the HP universe, and with the Elder Wand, it'd take Dumbledore and at least one of the other two wizards on his side to stand up to Voldemort.

Dumbledore>>Voldemort>>>Grindlewald>>Moody>=Snape

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#10 Posted by Man_of_Miracles (3551 posts) - - Show Bio

@penderor: I think if you give Grindelwald the Elder wand Snape and Moody are going to get killed by Voldermort before Dumbledore can finish off Gridelwald and if you give to Voldermort he potentially kills everyone.

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#11 Posted by Penderor (5561 posts) - - Show Bio

@man_of_miracles: I think you are overestimating Voldy and underestimating Moody with Snape.

@mrunsmiley: First of all, you have no proof that post WWII Dumbledore is weaker than HBP Dumbledore. I dont remember any sentence where is was said his power increased after this fight. Second, Dumbledore attacked the Grindelwald so he already knew that fight was going to happen. It was said by Rowling that Grindelwald and Dumbledore shared views for the ways of gaining powers, but not how to use it. Plus, that fight was going for hours (thats longer than any other mentioned duel).

You really think that Moody and Snape would hold against Voldemort for hours?

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#12 Edited by Man_of_Miracles (3551 posts) - - Show Bio

@penderor said:

@man_of_miracles: I think you are overestimating Voldy and underestimating Moody with Snape.

@mrunsmiley: First of all, you have no proof that post WWII Dumbledore is weaker than HBP Dumbledore. I dont remember any sentence where is was said his power increased after this fight. Second, Dumbledore attacked the Grindelwald so he already knew that fight was going to happen. It was said by Rowling that Grindelwald and Dumbledore shared views for the ways of gaining powers, but not how to use it. Plus, that fight was going for hours (thats longer than any other mentioned duel).

You really think that Moody and Snape would hold against Voldemort for hours?

I don't think it is a stretch to say Voldermort could kill Moody and Snape. He has already fought 4 high level wizards simultaneously and might have killed them if not for Harry's timely interference. Granted none of them were Snapes level (Moody is arguable) but seeing as there are only 2 here not 4 I don't think it is out there to say that Voldermort could kill or incapacitate them before Dumbledore finishes Grindelwald (which is going to take a pretty long time).

Also I think it is important to note that when Voldermort matched Dumbledore at the Ministry of Magic Dumbledore was in full control of the Elder Wand. Meaning that if Voldermort matches with Dumbledore here he may take a majority.

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#13 Posted by Van_Cere (3068 posts) - - Show Bio

@penderor: Dumbledore easily beat volcemort in the ministry while protecting Harry and holding off bellatrix when he had the wand, he also beat grindlewald even though the latter had the wand. Now, when voldemort had the wand, he was fighting on par with Kingsley and two other high level sorcerers, and only won after B was killed.

These feats suggest dumbledore and voldemort are on the same level when V has the wand, grindlewald while possessing the wand for years lost to dumbledore who at that time was not as knowlegble thus less powerful than he is now, so if you do not give him the wand, he should be one or two levels about shape at best. But snape has moody, one of the best aurors of all time, to help him; so if team one play it right, D beats V, snape and moody beats G after a long and hard fight.

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#14 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (31807 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2.

Grindelwald and Dumbledore were just a shade apart according to himself - Voldemort stomps the other two, and the two gang up on albus.

Very honestly, elder wand is given far more credit that it's due.

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#15 Edited by Man_of_Miracles (3551 posts) - - Show Bio

@van_cere said:

@penderor: Dumbledore easily beat volcemort in the ministry while protecting Harry and holding off bellatrix when he had the wand, he also beat grindlewald even though the latter had the wand. Now, when voldemort had the wand, he was fighting on par with Kingsley and two other high level sorcerers, and only won after B was killed.

These feats suggest dumbledore and voldemort are on the same level when V has the wand, grindlewald while possessing the wand for years lost to dumbledore who at that time was not as knowlegble thus less powerful than he is now, so if you do not give him the wand, he should be one or two levels about shape at best. But snape has moody, one of the best aurors of all time, to help him; so if team one play it right, D beats V, snape and moody beats G after a long and hard fight.

Voldermort never had control of the Elder Wand, only possession of it. He says as much to Snape in the last book.

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#16 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (31807 posts) - - Show Bio

Also I think it is important to note that when Voldermort matched Dumbledore at the Ministry of Magic Dumbledore was in full control of the Elder Wand. Meaning that if Voldermort matches with Dumbledore here he may take a majority.

voldemort didn't actually match dumbledore though. He was getting slaughtered.

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#17 Posted by Van_Cere (3068 posts) - - Show Bio

@man_of_miracles: I never said he had control over it, merely what he did when he had it.

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#18 Posted by Man_of_Miracles (3551 posts) - - Show Bio

@man_of_miracles said:

Also I think it is important to note that when Voldermort matched Dumbledore at the Ministry of Magic Dumbledore was in full control of the Elder Wand. Meaning that if Voldermort matches with Dumbledore here he may take a majority.

voldemort didn't actually match dumbledore though. He was getting slaughtered.

He was losing but I don't see how it was a slaughter at all.

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#19 Posted by Penderor (5561 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: You dont think that Dumbledore has a chance against Voldy with the Wand?

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#20 Posted by Man_of_Miracles (3551 posts) - - Show Bio

@van_cere said:

@man_of_miracles: I never said he had control over it, merely what he did when he had it.

Yeah but what he did when he had it has nothing to do with the Elder Wand, it was normal level.

In this fight he actually owns the Elder Wand which will boost his power.

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#21 Edited by Van_Cere (3068 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Posted by Man_of_Miracles (3551 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (31807 posts) - - Show Bio

@penderor said:

@princearagorn1: You dont think that Dumbledore has a chance against Voldy with the Wand?

I Actually see him winning - the two were portrayed as having clear gap between them, unlike grindelwald who was a near-exact match to dumbledore according to himself.

He was losing but I don't see how it was a slaughter at all.

'slaughter' may be exaggeration, but it was a pretty one sided fight, voldemort had his best lieutenant, and dumbledore was all casual even with harry to protect..

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#24 Edited by Man_of_Miracles (3551 posts) - - Show Bio

@penderor said:

@princearagorn1: You dont think that Dumbledore has a chance against Voldy with the Wand?

I Actually see him winning - the two were portrayed as having clear gap between them, unlike grindelwald who was a near-exact match to dumbledore according to himself.

@man_of_miracles said:

He was losing but I don't see how it was a slaughter at all.

'slaughter' may be exaggeration, but it was a pretty one sided fight, voldemort had his best lieutenant, and dumbledore was all casual even with harry to protect..

1. Dumbledore said that Grindelwald and him were a near match that is true. However Dumbledore beat Grindelwald when Grindelwald had ownership of the Elder Wand so I imagine the gap between them would be larger when Grindenlwald does not have the Elder Wand.

2. I agree that Dumbledore was winning. However that was when Dumbledore had the Elder Wand and now not only does Dumbledore not have the Elder Wand but Voldemort now does. So I think that Voldermort should be able to at least match him if not beat him.

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#25 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (31807 posts) - - Show Bio

@man_of_miracles:

1. Actually, he was talking about their skill in magic -

“Oh, not death,” said Dumbledore, in answer to Harry’s questioning look. “Not what he could do to me magically. I knew that we were evenly matched, perhaps that I was a shade more skillful.

-Harry Potter and the deathly hallows.

He actually says they are evenly matched, or he might be a little more skillful - his observations were from before grindelwald got the elder wand. The elder wand wasn't enough to fill a gap he considered small or non-existant.

2. Compared to that, voldemort has never been suggested to match dumbledore in skill. If anything, their fight clearly indicated otherwise. Of course, he had the elder wand, but the elder wand hardly seems to have a major effect in a dual at this level.

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#26 Posted by Penderor (5561 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: This means, that only reason Dumbledore won was that Grindelwald held back.

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#27 Posted by Man_of_Miracles (3551 posts) - - Show Bio

@man_of_miracles:

1. Actually, he was talking about their skill in magic -

“Oh, not death,” said Dumbledore, in answer to Harry’s questioning look. “Not what he could do to me magically. I knew that we were evenly matched, perhaps that I was a shade more skillful.

-Harry Potter and the deathly hallows.

He actually says they are evenly matched, or he might be a little more skillful - his observations were from before grindelwald got the elder wand. The elder wand wasn't enough to fill a gap he considered small or non-existant.

2. Compared to that, voldemort has never been suggested to match dumbledore in skill. If anything, their fight clearly indicated otherwise. Of course, he had the elder wand, but the elder wand hardly seems to have a major effect in a dual at this level.

1. No I know what his statement was, but he still beat Grindelwald when Grindelwald had possession of the Elder Wand which means he would certainly be able to beat him without it. In addition we assume that his observations are before Grindelwald possessed the Elder Wand, but we don't know that for sure as at the time that Dumbledore was preparing to face Grindelwald he already had possession of the Elder Wand. But I don't necessarily disagree with you.

2. Yeah but my point is that this switch of the Elder Wand is a double swing in power. Dumbledore loses whatever boost it provides and Voldermort gains it. Now is that enough to provide Voldermort with the edge? Not sure but I am willing to entertain the idea.

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#28 Posted by Van_Cere (3068 posts) - - Show Bio

@penderor: he goes into rages, and kills little girls. I doubt he would hold back when he was going to have everything, if anything, dumbledore was the one who always valued their friendship, he was the one that never gets angry, and he is the one that might have been holding back.

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#29 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (31807 posts) - - Show Bio

@penderor said:

@princearagorn1: This means, that only reason Dumbledore won was that Grindelwald held back.

why would he hold back? Dumbledore was 'a shade' more skillful, and elder wand wasn't enough to fill the gap. Shows how powerful the two are.

@princearagorn1 said:

@man_of_miracles:

1. Actually, he was talking about their skill in magic -

“Oh, not death,” said Dumbledore, in answer to Harry’s questioning look. “Not what he could do to me magically. I knew that we were evenly matched, perhaps that I was a shade more skillful.

-Harry Potter and the deathly hallows.

He actually says they are evenly matched, or he might be a little more skillful - his observations were from before grindelwald got the elder wand. The elder wand wasn't enough to fill a gap he considered small or non-existant.

2. Compared to that, voldemort has never been suggested to match dumbledore in skill. If anything, their fight clearly indicated otherwise. Of course, he had the elder wand, but the elder wand hardly seems to have a major effect in a dual at this level.

1. No I know what his statement was, but he still beat Grindelwald when Grindelwald had possession of the Elder Wand which means he would certainly be able to beat him without it. In addition we assume that his observations are before Grindelwald possessed the Elder Wand, but we don't know that for sure as at the time that Dumbledore was preparing to face Grindelwald he already had possession of the Elder Wand. But I don't necessarily disagree with you.

2. Yeah but my point is that this switch of the Elder Wand is a double swing in power. Dumbledore loses whatever boost it provides and Voldermort gains it. Now is that enough to provide Voldermort with the edge? Not sure but I am willing to entertain the idea.

1. He distanced himself as much as he could from grindelwald, so his observations were based on their earlier experience. And I agree that he'll obviously defeat grindelwald if neither have the wand.

2. Yes, it is a double swing in power - it doesn't exactly have the feats saying it is very large. What dumbledore considered a slight or non existant gap in power - elder wand wasn't enough to fill it. I just don't think it'll turn the match around. Of course, it is possible - but based on what we have seen - it seems a lot more likely that dumbledore will still win.

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#30 Posted by Penderor (5561 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (31807 posts) - - Show Bio

@penderor said:

@princearagorn1: So now you are saying that Elder Wand is a useless shite?

No, I said it doesn't have feats saying it'll make a difference in wizards at this level.

With harry vs ron or so? sure... here.. what has it done exactly to say it will? Wand's powers also depend on the owner, it's not like elder wand gives a set bonus in offense/defense.

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#32 Posted by Penderor (5561 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: So you think that once the wizard gets on some specific level of power, this wand has no use for him? Where is some logic in it?

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#33 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (31807 posts) - - Show Bio

@penderor said:

@princearagorn1: So you think that once the wizard gets on some specific level of power, this wand has no use for him? Where is some logic in it?

no use? no. World-turned-upside-down use? No. Slight use? yes.

Which dual has elder wand affected so drastically, exactly?

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#34 Posted by MrUnsmiley (2255 posts) - - Show Bio

@penderor said:

@man_of_miracles: I think you are overestimating Voldy and underestimating Moody with Snape.

@mrunsmiley: First of all, you have no proof that post WWII Dumbledore is weaker than HBP Dumbledore. I dont remember any sentence where is was said his power increased after this fight. Second, Dumbledore attacked the Grindelwald so he already knew that fight was going to happen. It was said by Rowling that Grindelwald and Dumbledore shared views for the ways of gaining powers, but not how to use it. Plus, that fight was going for hours (thats longer than any other mentioned duel).

You really think that Moody and Snape would hold against Voldemort for hours?

Wizards strengthen with time, and Dumbledore was already the greatest wizard in the world at that point in time. Simple logic dictates that as time went on, he became more powerful and experienced, seeing as how when he fought Grindelwald, he was in his early 20s at the oldest. You wouldn't say that Harry didn't grow more powerful after Hogwarts, seeing as he became Head Auror. Dumbledore went from a prodigy to the obvious candidate for Minister of Magic, to the headmaster of Hogwarts.

The reason Dumbledore took so long against Grindelwald (and prep had nothing to do with it, he was putting off their duel and finally decided to end his reign of tyranny) was because Grindelwald had the Elder Wand, and Dumbledore didn't. Not only was Grindelwald a formidable wizard to begin with, but he had the wand that practically guaranteed victory, so long as you were its true master. Dumbledore was the only wizard in history to outduel someone who had the Elder Wand, which speaks to how powerful he is. The fight would've been substantially shorter if Grindelwald didn't have the Elder Wand.

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#35 Posted by MetalJimmor (6539 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1:

It's also possible Dumbledore was just being modest. Or that he was accounting for the wand when comparing himself to Grindelwald.

You seem to be implying that it gives a very specific boost, like +5 Charms, and that while it's a big boost to newbies with only 15 total Charms skill it's useless to upper tier wizards with 150 Charms skill. But do you have any evidence that the wand even makes a different at lower skill levels? I mean, maybe the wand really IS all hype and doesn't give any kind of boost at all. If the wand isn't enough to close the gap between two near equals then it's actually quite useless. At least in comparison to it's legend and everything we know about it.

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#36 Posted by Mije_101 (1536 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1.

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#37 Posted by Penderor (5561 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Edited by Penderor (5561 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrunsmiley: 1.

when he fought Grindelwald, he was in his early 20s at the oldest

I stopped to take that post of yours serious, after you said that. Duel between Grindelwald and Dumbledore occured in 1945, when both wizards were already over sixty years old.

2. You cannot really prove that fight was fair and square. Dumbledore could have in the end trick or persuade Dumbledore or Grindelwald simply wasnt using any spells that would have killed Dumbledore.

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#39 Posted by Leo-343 (30909 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2. I don't think Moody and Snape can hold off Voldemort long enough for Dumbledore to beat Grindelwald. Then it's two on one and Dumbledore gets curbed.

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#40 Edited by MrUnsmiley (2255 posts) - - Show Bio

@penderor said:

@mrunsmiley: 1.

when he fought Grindelwald, he was in his early 20s at the oldest

I stopped to take that post of yours serious, after you said that. Duel between Grindelwald and Dumbledore occured in 1945, when both wizards were already over sixty years old.

2. You cannot really prove that fight was fair and square. Dumbledore could have in the end trick or persuade Dumbledore or Grindelwald simply wasnt using any spells that would have killed Dumbledore.

So I got their ages wrong, so what? The result would've been the same at any point, as Dumbledore always knew he was a better duelist than Grindelwald, however slightly. And to be honest, I couldn't care less what someone like you thinks, I know that I'm right and you're wrong.

Now you're just grasping at straws, and to be honest, it's pretty sad. Not only is cheating completely out of character for Dumbledore, but it shows how you can't come up with a reasonable response for this battle. This is the point where I stopped taking you seriously.

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#41 Posted by MrUnsmiley (2255 posts) - - Show Bio
@penderor said:

@mrunsmiley: 1.

when he fought Grindelwald, he was in his early 20s at the oldest

I stopped to take that post of yours serious, after you said that. Duel between Grindelwald and Dumbledore occured in 1945, when both wizards were already over sixty years old.

2. You cannot really prove that fight was fair and square. Dumbledore could have in the end trick or persuade Dumbledore or Grindelwald simply wasnt using any spells that would have killed Dumbledore.

So I got their ages wrong, so what? The result would've been the same at any point, as Dumbledore always knew he was a better duelist than Grindelwald, however slightly. And to be honest, I couldn't care less what someone like you thinks, I know that I'm right and you're wrong.

Now you're just grasping at straws, and to be honest, it's pretty sad. Not only is cheating completely out of character for Dumbledore, but it shows how you can't come up with a reasonable response for this battle. This is the point where I stopped taking you seriously.

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#42 Posted by Cregan_Stark (5207 posts) - - Show Bio

Dumbledore is above everyone else here regardless of the wand, this has been shown in the books. This means whomever is in control of the wand will face Dumbledore and lose in a good fight one on one.

The question is whether or not Snape and Moody can hold off the other long enough for Dumbledore to win his fight. I say yes, Snape is an absolute beast and I place him 4th amongst the Wizards that we saw in the books, while Moody is a weak link, I think the he could be a distraction to help Snape stay alive against Grindelwald.

I actually think I'm going to give this to team 1.

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#44 Posted by Mije_101 (1536 posts) - - Show Bio

Why is everyone matching them up like Albus vs Grindelwald while "Snape and Moody try to hold off Voldemort"?

Dumbledore is > Voldemort. He fights Voldy while Snape and Moody hold off or even best Grindelwald, as without the Elder Wand, I doubt he is Albus/Tom level. Snape and Moody are quite skilled themselves. Half the people in Azkaban are there because of Moody, supposedly.

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#45 Posted by Penderor (5561 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrunsmiley: You react as a kid.

Dumbledore was capable of using killing curse in the duel, used Harry whenever he could, cheated Snape, he was searching for the Deathly Hollows, he was the one who sent Harry to Dursley. The spell protecting him was bounded to the home, not the closest family member. If Harry would consider any other family house his home it would have worked most likely as well. I am sure there are more dirty things to find on Dumbledore.

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#46 Edited by Cregan_Stark (5207 posts) - - Show Bio

@mije_101: Tom isn't on Albus' level either. Albus himself says that he and Grindelwald were fairly even with Albus being slightly more skillful. Grindelwald is certainly in a level with Voldemort.

Snape is quite skillful and I believe that he could have a prolonged fight with Voldemort or Grindelwald under regular circumstances but he certainly isn't going to beat Grindelwald even with Moody's help. They could possibly hold him off though.

Also Moody is basically a non-factor. All he did in the books was get his a*s handed to him. And while he did bring down a lot of Deatheaters, none of them are in this class. He might be a match for Yaxley or Dolohov but he's out of his league here.

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#47 Posted by deactivated-5bfd5d714c687 (964 posts) - - Show Bio

It's been said Grindelwald and Dumbledore are pretty equal, so I'd put Grindelwald over Voldemort, since Voldemort wasn't equal to Dumbledore at all. I really can't decide who wins.

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#48 Posted by Cregan_Stark (5207 posts) - - Show Bio

@zaluk: true that Voldemort was outclaased by Dumbledore, however Dumbledore did have years of increased knowledge and practice since facing him. I place Voldemort and Grindelwald roughly in the same class.

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#49 Posted by noah_ouellette (3719 posts) - - Show Bio

@penderor: Harry wasn't exactly at his peak so tht feat doesn't exactly count, then Harry at his peak went on to defeat voldemort

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#50 Posted by Penderor (5561 posts) - - Show Bio