Monkey D. Luffy vs. Sasuke Uchiha.

@streak619 said:

@almightyamortal said:

@streak619 said:

@almightyamortal said:

@streak619 said:

@almightyamortal:

I agree Sasuke wins but claiming him and Naruto are light speed is straight bogus, heck its debatable if you wanna call Madara's Light Fang lightspeed only because the databook lists it as so? iirc LF is a lightning based sage release jutsu. There isn't any lightspeed going on in Naruto.

The LF is a Gale/Storm style based sage release jutsu

So.... what? People are saying that Naruto can move at the speed of light, because he dodged an attack that had the word light in the title?

Based on the scan, it seemed as if Naruto merely ducked down before Madara could turn his head. Even if the attack did move at the speed of light, which I think is unlikely considering it is a storm style jutsu, Naruto was simply faster than Madara not the attack itself..... Or am I missing something?

Edit: Why is Naruto dodging Madara's jutsu relevant to this thread? Did Sasuke also dodge the same attack? - because I don't remember him doing so.

Stated to be LS.

Dodged it after it was released with casualness, while engaging in an invisible clone.

Therefore EOS Naruto is low FTL

Sasuke's speed >= Naruto's speed.

The manga scan showed that Naruto ducked down before Madara could swing his head around. The anime seemingly did the same, but that time it showed it from Madara's perspective, seeing as we could see Naruto's face. This, combined with Naruto's sensory abilities, could easily be the explanation why Naruto was able to dodge the attack.

I still don't see the relevance of bringing up Naruto's "feat" - I do not remember much of Naruto, and have not kept up with the movies or Boruto series.... Did Sasuke achieve a similar "feat", or is everything that follows simply speculation based on this one technique? What has Sasuke done that makes his speed impressive? Did Sasuke, himself dodge a light speed attack (if not what was his best reaction feat)?

The manga has many possible scenarios as to exactly what happened, all of them being undebunkable, the anime is very clear though.

Sasuke has blitzed both Juudara, which puts him at minimally high relativistic (based on Might against's feat) and especially Naruto on multiple occasions, putting him at low FTL.

Anime, just like manga (the source material, which I thought would make it the more trustworthy source in comparison to the anime) have multiple ways to interpret something.

For example:

It was clear to me that, like the manga, The anime simply depicted Naruto, to be faster than Madara - He ducked down before Madara could turn his head and he would have likely done this with the aid of his precognition. In the anime Naruto did not act until, after the ninjutsu had completely left Madara's mouth (see last image), which is to be expected, since it is apparently travelling at the speed of light.

So.... the logic behind supporting Sasuke's speed, is that through Naruto's feat, which might not be as impressive as some say, and Sasuke's ability to pressure Naruto, using just his speed, Sasuke is somehow able to move as fast as light?

What is his best feat, without scaling?

Edit: DID Sasuke ever block an attack that was close to light speed, and if so, when?

@lambsauce:

Where does it explicitly state that Naruto did not use precog in that fight?

It seemed explicitly clear that he was using all of his sensory abilities, seeing as throughout the war, IIRC he continuously used Kurama's ability to sense negative emotions to differentiate disguised white zetsu from allied shinobi, and he recently had been given the ability to sense Madara's invisbile duplicates, which only he and Sasuke were even capable of sensing. Where is the proof, or logic that supports the idea that Naruto was not using precog in thefights against Madara or Kaguya?

Edit: Any speed feats for Sasuke, that do not rely on scaling?

@almightyamortal: the video is paused at the wrong moments, if you see the one I posted, you can see how Naruto moves his head out of the way of the LS beam after it was released. This is, considering that Naruto can potentially move much faster, an FTL implication.

'Sasuke's ability to pressure Naruto, using just his speed, Sasuke is somehow able to move as fast as light?'

Yes, seeing as how Naruto can casually dodge light at almost point blank range.

The video was not paused at wrong moments, I simply paused it more than twice (which shouldn't have an effect on your argument). You should actually read my previous post. The video explicitly shows that Naruto failed to move when the ninjutsu was activated (? -not sure what the right word is here), as shown in the last image, which I actually mentioned in my previous post.

The earlier images showed that the jutsu was moving horizontally, perhaps due to Madara turning his head, and that Naruto simply moved fast enough and ducked.

Again, where are Sasuke's speed feats?

@almightyamortal:

'Where does it explicitly state that Naruto did not use precog in that fight?'

Naruto doesn't have precog, Sasuke has precog

'It seemed explicitly clear that he was using all of his sensory abilities'

Nope, his sensory abilities have only been used for location or verification of identity but precog? Nope.

'Where is the proof, or logic that supports the idea that Naruto was not using precog in thefights against Madara or Kaguya?'

Again: Naruto doesn't have precog.

'Edit: Any speed feats for Sasuke, that do not rely on scaling?'

None.

Everytime Naruto utilizes his precog, there's always "!?" or just "!" marks everytime he reacts to certain attacks. Against Madara's Light Fang, there was no such indication that he used his precog because the panel lacks those marks. Against Sasuke on the other hand, clearly shows those marks just as Sasuke smacked him.

Wait... you don't consider blitzing JJ Madara as a solid feat? A stronger Madara than the one who reacted to Guy? Also, landing a chidori on Naruto, who reacted and dodged an LS attack is a speed feat in and of itself.

Naruto has Six paths precog, a form of advanced precognition that allows Naruto to see things before it happens. Which ultimately fails against Sasuke.

No, speed feats for Sasuke that doesn't rely on scaling? what? Nigga blitz JJ Madara post shinju absorption, a stronger Madara who reacted to Guy's speed. Landing a chidori on Naruto is also a legit speed feat.

@almightyamortal

The earlier images showed that the jutsu was moving horizontally, perhaps due to Madara turning his head, and that Naruto simply moved fast enough and ducked.

As you can see, Naruto clearly dodges it after it was a foot from his face, the swing of the lightfang begun after Naruto dodged, in attempt by Madara to slice his neck.

This is the order of events:

1)Madara launches the LF at Naruto's head

2)Naruto dodges it, by bending to his left.

3)Madara tries to swing it, in an attempt to slice Naruto's head.

4)Naruto, already in a dodging motion of the previous attack, dodges again.

This is quite clearly depicted. Madara swung the beam after Naruto dodged it at point blank range.

Therefore Naruto is FTL at EOS.

Allthe images in the right order: +

Naruto failing to react to beam coming out of Madara's mouth.

The rest of the images simply show Naruto moving faster than Madara, as he did in the manga as shown below:

You can actually see Madara turning his head in the scan. Naruto simply moved faster than Madara

Where is it stated that 6 paths senjutsu has precog? Or even implied? It has threat perception which is a different thing altogether.

Ah my bad, I interpreted his words differently, I thought he meant feats that have no implication scaling at all.

@almightyamortal: Bro, Madara shot Light Fang straight at Naruto's face. The beam was still in the same linear position after Naruto dodged it, indicating that Naruto did NOT fail to react to it and actually dodged it. After which, Madara then swung his head in an attempt to slash Naruto with it. There's literally no other interpretation to it than that. Naruto reacting to Madara's head makes no sense whatsoever.

You can see Madara turning his head AFTER Naruto has dodged it.

I may have been wrong, but I was convinced by another viner (I do not remember who), that Naruto, through the chakra of the sage of six paths, had obtained the ability predict attacks in a similar manner to haki users in One Piece.

Did Madara explicitly say that Sasuke's speed was comparable to Guy's? IIRC Madara could only see the initial movements of Guy's attack before moving too fast, and bending space to hit Madara. When did Madara actually react to an attack from Guy?

It was in the fourth databook. Page 310 IIRC.

Kinda like prediction, only that Naruto can see it happen before it happens.

Madara was looking straight at Sasuke, and even said that Sasuke was 'fast' before he was blitzed in half. He couldn't do anything about it and was only saved due to his immortality. Logic dictates that Sasuke should be faster than Guy, as a weaker Madara reacted to his speed, whilst a much stronger Madara who just absorbed the Shinju tree was unable to do so and was bisected in half. Mind you, Sasuke was only using his foot speed, and not his spacial hax.

Madara reacted to but was unable to defend himself against Night Moth.

I literally just showed you the images that depicted that the energy emitted from Madara's mouth, which we know to be only capable of travelling in straight lines, reach and cut Naruto's TSB before Naruto could react and to be not only moving but following Naruto as he ducks down. Just as it happened in the manga, the anime shows that Madara cut Naruto's TSB staff and continued to swivel his head, hoping to cut Naruto down, but Naruto simply ducked.

An earlier post that seemingly ignored:

@almightyamortal said:

Allthe images in the right order: +

Naruto failing to react to beam coming out of Madara's mouth.

The rest of the images simply show Naruto moving faster than Madara, as he did in the manga as shown below:

You can actually see Madara turning his head in the scan. Naruto simply moved faster than Madara

I am literally using the same video you used and simply slowed it down to reveal what was actually happening.

If Madara did not turn his head, how do you suppose he came to face the direction towards Naruto's left instead of directly at Naruto?

Found it:

" Six Paths Sage Mode (六道仙人モード, Rikudō Sennin Mōdo), Sage Justu / Ninjutsu used by Naruto. Most of this page is too blurry to read, so I can only translate some of it.

The big header basically says it's a gift from the ancestor of shinobi that grants a supernatural mental state allowing for the complete, universal comprehension of all things.

From what I can make out of the main body of text, it says that this is a technique that allows the user to quickly grasp the nature of chakra with the skill of a well-studied, highly sensitive master. It also seems to have a bunch of philosphical stuff about the Sage of Six Paths which is hard to make out because I can only read about half of it.

Top caption says that the caster has an unconcious/automatic mastery of the Sage of Six Path's "ability to levitate" (浮遊する能力, fuyū suru nōryoku).

Second caption says, "Kicking a Truthseeker Orb! Surpassing Kurama Mode, his vast chakra lets him perform this risky stunt!"

Third caption says, "His reaction speed meets or exceeds that of Madara in his Ten Tails Jinchuriki Form. It's the height of sensory ability!" "

No mention of preco, do you have any other translation?

@streak619: @lambsauce:

It seems neither of you can actually post evidence supporting the idea that Sasuke can move at the speeds approaching that of light or just react to those speeds.

The video one of you actually posted, when slowed down, seemed to suggest that Naruto simply aim dodged Madara's jutsu.

If you want to continue this, then you would have to wait a few hours, as It is well past midnight, at least where I am, and I may reply to you then.

@almightyamortal: I have explained it to you above, check it out.

@almightyamortal: I actually didn't post any videos. I think you mean to reply to Streak619

Nah, I didn't ignore your post. I actually said what I clearly saw in your post. Light Fang only capable of travelling in a straight line is irrelevant here. Light Fang reaching the TSB before Naruto could react is also irrelevant. As after it travels through the TSB, Naruto was clearly able to react to it and ducked to dodge. After Naruto dodged, only then you can see that the beam took a turn towards Naruto.

Here's what happened as I see it:

>Naruto jumped to attack Madara.

>Naruto is held by a limbo clone mid-air, directly in Madara's position.

>Madara fires Light Fang straight at Naruto's head.

>Light Fang reaches the TSB and slices it.

>Light Fang goes through the TSB an Naruto ducks to dodge.

>Naruto already dodged the moment the Light Fang reached him.

>Light Fang passed through him, failing to hit Naruto.

>Seeing this, Madara swung his head in an attempt to slash Naruto, who was already in a ducking position.

>The beam then took a turn downwards.

Naruto clearly reacted to the beam, and not Madara himself. I don't know why you see it that way. but Naruto reacting to Madara's head swing makes no sense.

@back_stabbath95: it's a piercing attack that he casually vaporized a meteor with. I'm not buying the nlf lightning/ blunt force proof argument that so many people make (not saying you are, necessarily), especially considering his weaknesses are sasukes specialty.

Dunno. It's too troublesome to dig for it though. You should ask some Naruto experts on here.

Likewise, you have 0 relevant arguments against Sasuke feats that lambsauce mentioned.

aim dodge is dodging when you are aware of the projectile's trajectory and begin dodging before it is released, as both of us have shown, Naruto dodged the beam well after it was fired. Not to mention your argument shifted from "Naruto dodged a swing" to "Naruto aim dodged", so neither of us are sure what to make of your inconsistent arguments

No problem.

you think Sasuke would be unphased by one of Luffy's Gatlings like a hawk gatling? or even no sell a G3 attack? or possibly even G4 KKG? if that's the case this thread literally holds no merit

why aren't you buying it? have you read/watched One Piece? Luffy doesn't have to worry about blunt force( unless haki or elements are involved) and he no sells lightning completely hence him vs Enel. Piercing Luffy works but doesn't indefinitely put him down Sasuke would have to focus on different techniques besides lightning release, like his fire attacks.

Can someone pls explain to me how this is a fair battle? Are we actually arguing about Luffy has a possibility to take down EOS Sasuke?

Am i the only one who thinks this is a spite thread?

Yeah, this is spite. Sasuke casually strangles Luffy while eating some rice balls and petting kittens

@razielghoul: Sasuke definitely wins lol when the thread was first made it was probably more debatable

@lambsauce said:

1) How is it that the way the light fang travels, is not relevant? If the light fang moves in a straight line, and it simply pierced through the TSB, leaving a hole in it, and Naruto managed to dodge the attack, then that would be a feat that would be hard to argue against. But that is not what happened here. It was stated that the light fang travels in a straight line, at speeds reaching those of light speed, and it showed that Madara attempted to cut Naruto down, but Naruto evaded due to his superior speed, in comparison to Madara, not the jutsu, but his TSB was sliced in two in the process.

2) No.... if you can't prove that Naruto reacted before the light fang could reach his TSB then the strength of your argument drops significantly. I have nothing against Naruto. If a jutsu that was explicitly stated to travel at light speed was heading towards Naruto and Naruto moved while the jutsu had not yet completed its journey towards him, then I would most definitely be happy that Naruto could accomplish such a feat. But that is not the case here. The manga shows that Naruto ducked out of the way before Madara could swing his head around to cut Naruto. The anime showed that Naruto ducked out of the way shortly before the beam of light swung toward him horizontally, after the beam had reached the TSB.

3) Um.... yeah? Madara's jutsu did slice, like I said earlier (post 215 which you did not reply to the question) the TSB, as opposed to simply piercing through it, and as Madara tried to turn his head further to slice Naruto, Naruto ducked down.

4) Have you not noticed the difference in size between the beam coming from Madara's mouth and the Naruto's TSB?

If it happened as you said it did, then the beam would most likely just pierced through the TSB, leaving a hole in it.... and most likely leaving a hole in Naruto too.

Instead, as shown by the video, the TSB was sliced in half, as Madara turned his head.

5) Seeing as how the TSB was sliced in half, as opposed to being pierced by Madara's jutsu, it would make much more sense if Madara, as it was seemed to have been depicted in the anime, turned his head in the attempt to slice Naruto, but Naruto, simply being slightly faster than Madara, ducked down.

6) I am not sure what you are trying to say. Should I make not of the downward turn of the light fang or not. IS how the jutsu moves relevant or not?

7) The reason we are having this discussion is because it was not clear what Naruto reacted to. I have already stated reasons as to why I see things the way I do. It seems you barely attempted to read my posts, so I don't see how it is my fault if you are failing to understand what I am saying.

@back_stabbath95: Good to know that i'm not the crazy one here. Inb4 the lock then

What feats? Those feats are all seemingly scaled off this one. I asked for one feat for Sasuke that was not scaled off Naruto. Neither of you did so.

I am aware of the definition of aim dodging. Can you prove that Naruto reacted to the beam leaving Madara's mouth and not Madara's movements?

Yes. Naruto did dodge an attack after it was initiated, more specifically he dodged when Madara attempted to cut Naruto down using a jutsu that had already left his mouth.

My argument never shifted. Naruto did dodge beam before Madara swung his head towards his direction, which was after it had already reached the TSB, which suggests that Naruto moves faster than Madara and not the jutsu. I then later said that it may have been possible that Naruto may have aim dodged seeing as he knew that Madara would attempt to turn his head and cut Naruto, and moved before Madara could turn his head. If anything I have been trying to be more specific... if you do not understand just say so and I will explain - making assumptions and misunderstanding what someone else is saying would only waste time.

This will have to carry on later. I have things to do.

@back_stabbath95: I'm all for Luffys nigh-immunity to blunt force and resistance to lightning but Suggesting he could tank Sasukes Chidori is simply unfounded. A Raikiri from War arc Kakashi would oneshot Luffy, Sasukes Chidori has less piercing power but the sheer level of electricity is beyond anything Enel has shown.

Sasuke would win this fight.

@cosmic_lantern: is the lightning not what grants it it’s piercing ability it would make no sense otherwise imo. Stronger than anything Enel has ever shown? Seems a bit exaggerated considering what I remember from his Raigo

@razielghoul: no you’re not crazy Sasuke is way too versatile though I disagree with people saying chidori one shots Luffy. Sasuke can kick back in his Susanoo and just do that no need to risk getting punched( apparently some think Luffy’s punches would do nothing) all just to Chidori him, assuming that would even work.

I hope everyone here will agree with me in order to lock this thread, since it's an obvious mismatch, both rounds. A really bad one.

@back_stabbath95: The half meteor Sasuke busted dwarfed a mountain range ontop of Konoha in its entirety. It absolutely destroys any feat Luffy and Enel have combined by a non-debatable margin. Insinuating something as frivolous as raigo can compete with it is absolutely laughable. That would imply Enel is beyond Fuji and Doffy which is just as absurd.

@back_stabbath95: Naruto's punches hurt a being who is MUCH stronger than someone who could tank multiple Continent level Juubidama.

So kind of.

Could you please post the scan of Sasuke busting the mountain sized meteor. I tried to find it but I only found one that showed Sasuke destroying a meteor that was slightly smaller than Konoha (when it was quite small, before the expansions that were probably done during Naruto's tenure as hokage,), so I think that would make it a "village" sized meteor, if it was a little bigger. Where did you find a mountain range sized meteor destroying feat for Sasuke?

The image allows easy comparison between the size of Konoha to the meteor. Can you or even someone else explain?

Sasuke cuts him to rubber shreds.

@almightyamortal: That *is* the mountain sized meteor. I’d you couldn’t tell, it’s more than twice the size of the Hokage monument.

this is mountain they are talking about, that level of dirt on the left?

it looks small because its zoomed out but this is what that actually is:

@almightyamortal: from the last though is this not eos Sasuke?

current at the time of 2014 was EoS sasuke technically.

but OP just says Current.

What?? Cosmic said that the meteor dwarfed a mountain range, not a single, large hill, with faces carved into it.

@chair-sama said:

@thevivas said:

@almightyamortal: That *is* the mountain sized meteor. I’d you couldn’t tell, it’s more than twice the size of the Hokage monument.

this is mountain they are talking about, that level of dirt on the left?

it looks small because its zoomed out but this is what that actually is:

Please explain. Both the village and the meteor were zoomed out. So even when taking the zoom out of the equation and the meteor should still be the size of the village, not anywhere close to mountain range.

While the kage faces are big they aren't big enough to consider the hill a mountain range. Boruto could be the same size as a kakashi's eye.

So... does sasuke actually have a mountain range sized attack?

@almightyamortal: Yet you asked for Sasuke busting a *mountain* sized meteor, not a maintain range sized meteor.

If you can’t see that what Sasuke busted is the size of a mountain, you’re gonna have some serious problems in the future.

Luffy solostomps anyone from Naruto

The feats of Sasuke blitzing Juudara.

Naruto most definitely saw Madara's movements, but he wasn't aware of what Madara was doing, so dodging to the left isn't the first thing a sane person would do. If he reacted to Madara's beam, he would have begun dodging before Madara's beam fired, but he dodged the beam after it was a foot away from his face, hence the dodge of Naruto was a reaction to LF.

'It was clear to me that, like the manga, The anime simply depicted Naruto, to be faster than Madara - He ducked down before Madara could turn his head and he would have likely done this with the aid of his precognition'

This is essentially you saying that you believe Naruto dodged a swing which is very different from aim dodging.

Sure no prob.