Monkey D. Luffy vs. Sasuke Uchiha.

Luffy can knock out 50 000 people without even moving a finger.

Sasuke faints even before the battle begins.

Lets say he does not faint

, he was unable to react or even see Raikage, base Luffy is many times faster than raikage. He is fast to the point when he calls light beam "slow", Sasuke dies even before he has chance to put up Susano'o wall.

Lets say Sasuke starts with his Susano'o on covered with black flames (which fails to burn cloth and Madara got rid of it simply by taking off shirt lol)

Sasukes Susano'o was broken by Raikage, then it got upgraded and still got broken by Vakuum cutter and so on both of those attacks are leagues below Luffys attack which was able to stop Chinjaos forehead which had enough force to split continent in two and Hi's Hardening Haki will protect him from Amaterasu it is just barrier made by willpower so there is nothing to burn.

There is just no chance or hope for Sasuke winning this.

pretty sure BLACK flames are amaterasu

@lowlaville: Explain why doesn't it fit Amaterasu descriptions, molding and manipulating doesn't contradict the flames burning what ever it come it contact with.

Maybe because its not called Amaterasu? Or perhaps that its called Kagu Tsuchi and its called Enton: An advanced flame technique that has never been explained what the make up of the technique is. All we do know is Enton can be used when Susanoo is active. And weilded like the Totsuka Blade Itachi used. The fact that it was used in combination with Rasenshuriken also means the make up of Enton is different from Amaterasu.

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Moreover, Sasuke seems to freely use Enton as opposed to Amaterasu. I honestly don't know what to make of it though.

@datswampertazz: Well I am officially somewhat confused as well. lol Enton has never been described as being Amaterasu, not by Sasuke himself. By behavior, it does not act nor has been shown to behave as Amaterasu. Thats the only grounds I'm going by for now.

@lowlaville: It's not called Amaterasu because it a technique on it own, but It's still just the manipulation of Amaterasu flame. I mean it's black flames from the sharinagan eye...what else could it be. Of course Sasuke can just use Enton or Amaterasu...eternal Sharinagan.

@thatguywithheadphones: I suppose if we look at the point of origin.....all it can be is Amaterasu.

The question in that case should be, can Luffy deal with it? lol Yes he can. Luffy has monstrous strength to begin with. He is at least on par with or greater than his grandfather in strength due to his devil fruit augmentation + G3. He has been seen summoning enough power a thousand feet underwater to one shot a giant Kraken. Susanoo is nothing to him. Even if Enton is coating it, Luffy is still too fast for Sasuke to even come close to tagging. If Raikage can dodge Amaterasu, Luffy can. Combine G2 + Observation Haki and you have someone who cannot be stopped.

Enton is bloodline limit chakra nature: fire+lightening.

Amaterasu is highest level of fire release, apparently.

I personally never saw the two as different. But anyway, it doesn't matter. Enton weilders can manipulate the shape of amaterasu, which is what sasuke does.. Luffy has no way to get past either.

@princearagorn1: unless he use Haki. That could work.

for what purpose?

@princearagorn1: To hit through Enton coating Susanoo, what else?

how does that change anything? problem is not hitting susanoo. It's the damage he receives in return every time he tries to strike..

@princearagorn1: Lets see...

- Enton has not been catagorized as Amaterasu. Therefore, it can be estinguished. It does not burn x infinity.
- With Haki, luffy resisted an extremely potent and lethal nerv poison. Resisting flames with untold heat upper limit is not far off, especially where Luffy can snuff out or otherwise get rid of the flames. Enton being part lightning, it will have an half assed effect on Luffy as well.

In the end, Luffy has displayed enough strength to end Susanoo + Sasuke is a single blow.

@princearagorn1: On more thing, Luffy can just as easily coat his hands in flames like he did against Hody in G2 and do an attack. That feat also proves his armament Haki can resist burning.

@lowlaville:

Why won't sasuke simply use amaterasu? He can control it's shape, too.

Luffy's resistance to poison was built from the time his fight in impel down iirc. And how is resisting poison related to resisting amaterasu? Resisting burning and resisting amaterasu are two different things. Unless luffy is planning to chop himself organ by organ, he's not getting rid of it any time soon. And chopping off organ without any healers around = death by blood loss.

Sasuke both rounds less he starts whining.

Luffy can dodge Amaterasu.

Luffys Haki can resist Fire, Poison and Damage.

Again, Enton is not Amaterasu. No one credible has made that claim as far as I know. The flames are therefore natural and can be put out any number of ways. You are avoiding the subject though. Luffy has an elephant gun roughly 100x his own size hit a giant kraken and put it down, while he himself said he felt weak due to the ocean. This Kraken was easily the size of a mountain. You need to also take into consideration that Enton has lightning release in it, meaning the effect of Enton on Luffy is weaker. 50% weaker.

We know the property of fire. Fire negates fire. So, as long as Luffy has his hand ignited, Enton will literally have no effect. Amaterasu can be dodged. Really all Sasuke has his Genjutsu, if he can use it on Luffy.

@lowlaville:

Yes. I already said he can dodge amaterasu for a limited time till his gear 2 lasts. Point is, he can't byepass it to actually hit susanoo. And amaterasu isn't going anywhere once it lands, whether by sasuke seeing him, or by luffy burning himself.

It doesn't matter if luffy's arm is burning or not. Amaterasu burns fire.

@princearagorn1: Ahhhh. I give up. You are still calling Enton Amaterasu.

Not really. Why won't sasuke use amaterasu, assuming it's different from enton?

round 1: depends on how fast sasuke can built up his enton covered susanoo, as @princearagorn1 mentioned it will damage Luffy and he has no way to put the flames out

round 2: with genjutsu Sasuke should win

wheres the big difference? enton is the kkg that allows him to manipulate amaterasu, its still the same flames

@princearagorn1: Sasuke would. But then, it's application is limited. He certainly cannot shape manipulate it, or coat it around Susanoo like Enton. That's whats tickling my troll sensor with you right now. lol Luffy can punch out Susanoo and deal with Sasuke really easy. Don't know where you are coming from if you don't think Amaterasu and Enton are the same. Amaterasu is a point blank explosive technique capable of combusting anything in the range of sight.

Raikage already dodged it once. Luffy in G2 can dodge it really easily. That aside, I'm also not sure what is your exact point here you want to make if not "Enton is Amaterasu".

@ratava: There's just no credible source for that information except from a sensor named C. It would be acceptable, it would have been, if there's a databook page on it.

@lowlaville: What? why? He already did it against raikage. Why would raikage sacrifice his arm if it was 'extinguishable'?

And how does raikage dodging it means luffy G2 dodge will dodge it for sure?

no, there was nothing shown in the manga to assume the flames are different, so theres no need to make assumption or call the enton flames different flames, its amaterasu.

@databook: they are not reliable, you know the amaterasu hotter as the sun rubbish? :)

iirc he manipulated the amaterasu flames even earlier to save Karin during the battle with Bee

i think it would be easier for Luffy to dodge., thanks to his precog

@ratava: Ah yes, that haki precog.

@princearagorn1: I guess you have a point. lol

Because Luffy is faster?

And- the goal is to kill Sasuke. If Gaara did not interfere, Sasuke would've died. Luffy stomps. We know its going to be easy to cut Luffys hand, like Raikage did. So why not? heh.

@princearagorn1:

As far as speed is concerned, Luffy is not just faster than Raikage, with precog, he becomes even faster.

@lowlaville:

Because Luffy is faster?

And- the goal is to kill Sasuke. If Gaara did not interfere, Sasuke would've died. Luffy stomps.

How is luffy faster?

and just because sasuke might have died against raikage, it leads to luffy stomping.. how?

@princearagorn1:

- Well just show me Raikage displaying this speed and I will take your word for it, that he (Raikage) is faster than this.

- Yes. Luffy is stronger than Raikage any day.

You know what? Luffy was weaker due to the ocean around him. And he was a thousand feet under water. Nah he's far superior than anything Raikage displayed. Its a hillarious stomp.

@lowlaville:

Speed:

Here's luffy G2 against smoker-tashigi:

How is it so hugely ahead of weights off lee blitzing gaara?

Or haku doing similar stuff?

Or better yet, sasuke himself replicating it?

KN1 Naruto himself done similar thing on the same sasuke, underwater, to your liking:

Yet, 3 tomoe sasuke has very clearly seen and reacted to him.

Why would current EMS sasuke have problem tracking luffy again?

@princearagorn1: That's Sharingans ability to predict movement. Enel could do it. Luffy beat Enel, and Enel is faster or equal to Raikage.

The first scan is after Sasuke had copied Lee's techniques. His is basic taijutsu, just trained to incredible levels. What Sasuke did was copy the techniques in it.

Second Scan is Haku beating around Naruto. Look at the scan that comes after that one. Even Haku said the longer he was in front of Sasuke, he would predict and thereby Haku would become slower to him.

I would dare you to show some video of it if it really does hold any credibility at all. The differences between Luffy's blitzing Smoker and Lee Blitzing Gaara and Sasuke blitzing Gaara are very simple. Sasuke was never going that fast against Gaara. Yes it did look like Sasuke had the same speed, but he did not. He was slower. He took time to get around Gaara unlike Lee, and Gaara was able to react to a certain extent. Lee was practically teleporting the entire fight where Gaara could not react. What's more? Sasuke never used such movement speed thereafter. It was stamina consuming, as Sasuke was tired after about 2 minutes. Lee confirmed it.

If he really did accomodate such speed, in the post time skip fight, Gaara would not have been able to fight into a stalemate with Sasuke, nor would he have been tagged by Raikage. Post timeskip Lee with his gates opened has been seen blitzing Madara and outpacing Naruto in the Kyuubi cloak. At the very least, if Sasuke was using some form of that speed you referred to, he would be fast enough to thwart someone like Deidara or Itachi easily. He did not. He had trouble with them. In fact, most of the times Sasuke had help that saved him. Like the time against Kakashi, or the instance with Raikage for once. Gaara saved him.

Speedwise, the representation on scan and in the anime are wildly different.

And with Naruto vs Sasuke, Naruto was not going that fast either.

As for Luffy, he himself was not even taking the fight seriously. On top of that, Smoker (in his real body), unlike Gaara, had enough pre time skip speed to tag and pin down G2 Luffy. He is no way slow. Even if he was not in his body and weak, it still compelled Luffy to use G2 and after blitzing Smoker a couple times, was out of there.

Has Sasuke ever shown this kind of speed or reaction speed?

There's even more proof Sasuke cannot keep up with Lee.

Or, take Luffys fight with Blueno or even Ballamy as an example. This is Lee's speed without his training weights. I can tell you. Luffy is faster.

At top speed, Bellamy disappears from sight. Luffy can easily tag someone at this speed, without moving. The way I see it, you are just underestimating Luffy here. Luffy can just as well one punch Sasuke to oblivion.

@princearagorn1: Btw, you have yet to show me how Raikage is faster than Luffy. Or stronger than him for the matter.

@lowlaville said:

@uchiha454 said:

@lowlaville said:

Sasuke fans are forgetting one little fact about Sharingan.

= Sharingan cannot copy luffys move. LOL. It can predict them. But the battle with Enel proved, and the battle with the snake sisters, that Luffy in G2 goes fast enough even if someone actually predicts movement, they cannot react, a fact reinstated by Lee.

= Even if Sharingan can actually predict the movement, if the user is not fast enough to react, the Sharingan is useless. Haku proved it. Lee proved it. In fact, Lee defeated Sasuke pre shippuden and post Shippuden.

And the OP made sure Sasuke wins second round, by giving Sasuke everything and Luffy nothing. Thats spite. Otherwise, luffy stomps two rounds with ease.

True because the devils fruit is similar to a kekkei genkai. Did you see the scan where Naruto was fighting Sasuke at the Valley of end Naruto overwhelmed him with speed yet Sasuke overcame that and defended and offended accordingly.

True, but Uchihas are known to be fast, also even if an opponent is fast unless Luffy is on the level of Minato Sasuke will be able to react in time as he did with Naruto and Haku, Lee added to Sasuke's own speed Sasuke used Lee's speed during the Chunin exams. His sharingan was not fully realized in their first encounter and when did Lee and Sasuke fight in Shippuden?

Can Luffy break through illusions if he had a certain technique? Sasuke's genjutsu was nerfed in round one because of how good of a fighter he is in order to bring him to Luffy's level.

- I know Sasuke did. But thats only with the help of the cursed seal. It augmented his body strength and speed to such a degree it allowed Sasuke to keep up with Naruto.

- The Uchihas are, Sasuke is not. In fact, he is vastly inferior to that of even his own brother. Sasuke did not utilize Lee's speed. He copied Lee's technique because he had seen it done with Sharingan. It's a default feature of Sharingan. He only appeared faster because he could now move his body in a relative manner to Lee's own Taijutsu movements.

Loading Video...

Of course Sasuke could not use any Ninjutsu in this particular instance, but this is a good example of superior speed that can overwhelm the Sharingan.Naruto SD is canon btw.

And this is also part of the reason Sasuke cannot keep up with G2 Luffy even if he has Sharingan. G2 uses different principles of inner body movement that only Luffy can, this on top of the fact that Luffy can stretch himself. No matter how good Sasukes Sharingan, he cannot copy the movements. At best, he can predict them like Enel did. But as with the snake sisters I mentioned, Luffy had overcome observation Haki reading not your movements but your thoughts with sheer speed alone. Sharingan is not topping that.

There's also another instance where Lee speedblitzes Madara while in his gates.

In this particular instance, Lee outspeeds Naruto in his Bijuu Cloak and as you see above is blitzing even Madara. G2 Luffy is at least as fast and if not a whole lot faster than Lee is. He won't have trouble beating up Sasuke with or without Genjutsu to be honest.

- I don't know. If you turn relativity on, Haki should be available as a genjutsu counter.

Sasuke was matching fighting on par with Naruto before he used the cursed seal, once his sharingan was completed he used it to compensate for his lack of speed not the cursed seal, which he used to win the fight.

Sasuke is inferior to Itachi that is true but not to all other Uchihas, Itachi had Obito posing as Madara teaching him all of their clans secret techniques and abilities like Amaterasu, Susanoo, and Tsukyomi. Who did Sasuke have teaching him about the sharingan techniques, not really anyone Kakashi never really taught him how to use the sharingan as he does the only thing he taught Sasuke was chidori. Everything Sasuke did up until the fight against Itachi was on his own and Itachi taught him the secret techniques in their fight and Sasuke became more skilled with Amaterasu than Itachi did.

I think Sasuke did pretty well in that fight against the person who has the second best taijutsu in the Narutoverse, Lee was only able to get a few shots in Sasuke did not get stomped on like their first encounter.

Have you seen this fight speed isn't everything Sasuke reacted to the second fastest person in the Narutoverse who was trying very hard kill him

I really wouldn't put to much weight into Lee speed blitzing Madara on three occasions he allowed himself to get hit with attacks on purpose with the Tsuchikage he allowed dust release to blow away his armor on purpose to show them the First Hokage's face. The second time was when he was fighting Sasuke and he allowed Sasuke to stab him so he could try and convince him to join him. The third occasion is where he let Sasuke's amaterasu hit him and he just took off his armor and threw it a side. Point is Madara lets himself get hit with attacks a lot I don't know if Lee's kick would stand up against susanoo.

I don't know from what I've heard Haki sounds closer to the prediction ability of the sharingan rather than an illusion dispeller how would it cancel genjutsu?

"Resisting burning and resisting amaterasu are two different things"...what the ****..are you serious man

@lowlaville:

That's Sharingans ability to predict movement. Enel could do it. Luffy beat Enel, and Enel is faster or equal to Raikage.

Enel's precog works differently than sharingan. And enel doesn't have the combat speed feats to put him past genin levels in the category. Much less kage level.

(Don't give me that 'they're both lightening users!' argument. No HST character is, was, or will have consistent lightening level combat speed, which is over mach 15000)

The first scan is after Sasuke had copied Lee's techniques. His is basic taijutsu, just trained to incredible levels. What Sasuke did was copy the techniques in it.

Second Scan is Haku beating around Naruto. Look at the scan that comes after that one. Even Haku said the longer he was in front of Sasuke, he would predict and thereby Haku would become slower to him.

I would dare you to show some video of it if it really does hold any credibility at all. The differences between Luffy's blitzing Smoker and Lee Blitzing Gaara and Sasuke blitzing Gaara are very simple. Sasuke was never going that fast against Gaara. Yes it did look like Sasuke had the same speed, but he did not. He was slower. He took time to get around Gaara unlike Lee, and Gaara was able to react to a certain extent. Lee was practically teleporting the entire fight where Gaara could not react. What's more? Sasuke never used such movement speed thereafter. It was stamina consuming, as Sasuke was tired after about 2 minutes. Lee confirmed it.

I think you completely missed the point of all the scans.

First, a correction: it didn't just 'look' like sasuke was as fast as non-weighted lee. He actually was as fast:

Apparently you missed the panel.

Second, I'm not using the scans to claim/prove sasuke is faster than luffy. Point is, he can keep up with and fight at these speeds without a problem. Luffy achieved some actual speed after he got gear 2. Naruto genins already showed similar speeds in the first few arcs.

If he really did accomodate such speed, in the post time skip fight, Gaara would not have been able to fight into a stalemate with Sasuke, nor would he have been tagged by Raikage. Post timeskip Lee with his gates opened has been seen blitzing Madara and outpacing Naruto in the Kyuubi cloak. At the very least, if Sasuke was using some form of that speed you referred to, he would be fast enough to thwart someone like Deidara or Itachi easily. He did not. He had trouble with them. In fact, most of the times Sasuke had help that saved him. Like the time against Kakashi, or the instance with Raikage for once. Gaara saved him.

...Why? Lee was the fastest konoha genin. Raikage was the fastest shinobi alive at the time. Gaara trained extensively in the time between. Hell, look at his techniques against kimimaro. Post ts he already was a kage level shinobi.

Itachi is arguably one of the fastest shinobi. He already showed to be casually far faster than genin sasuke, after he had equal speed with lee, even after that speed was further amped by chidori.

Speedwise, the representation on scan and in the anime are wildly different.

cool. Manga's what counts.

Has Sasuke ever shown this kind of speed or reaction speed?

Yes, he has shown to react to these speeds since pre-time skip. Which was the original point.

------------------------------

And anyway, I don't see why you are bringing up lee's supposed 'blitz' on madara, and what's this about 'outspeeding bm naruto'?. It's neither correct, nor relevant.

First, they weren't in any kind of race to reach madara. They were all going together. Unless hinata and some nameless shinobi are somehow as fast as gai, lee and naruto:

And second, naruto not only stays behind getting healed, he just throws FRS from where he is. And lee is apparently thrown ahead by gai:

Madara has repeatedly taken hits because he'd regen from them anyway. Neither of them bother doing anything in the entire time shinobi alliance runs towards them, as they expected the juubi to be auto-win. (with good reason) They were both just standing there admiring the view for quite a while:

(uh, sorry, it's a meme. But you get what the panel says.)

Edit:

@lowlaville:

How can you say amaterasu is not the same thing as Enton??? Why don't you go read up on kagutsuchi in the narutopedia because you honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Enton is the manipulation of AMATERASU....he can give it shape and make the flames bend to his will. Regardless of that fact....It doesn't change the fact that it is AMATERASU. Luffy cant damage sasuke if he he has his full susanoo and the amaterasu flames covered in it...if you stop to think about it. The raikage had to cut his arm off to stop the flames from spreading. If it wasn't amaterasu then he could have put the fire out. Sasuke used his enton to cover the rib cage of susanoo in AMATERASU FLAMES....so if luffy is stupid enough to even attempt to hit sasuke...Armament haki isn't gonna stop Amaterasu flames from engulfing his entire body

@uchiha454

:

- Sasuke had Itachi teaching him nearly everything. That aside, sasuke is a true genius like Itachi, though vastly inferior to the potential that Itachi and Kakashi had when they were his age. Unlike Obito who is not a genius by any mean. Madara taught him nearly everything minus the space time ninjutsu. That much is a given. And, you are mistaken. Sasuke does not know how to use any of the clans secret technique. Tsukiyomi and Genjutsu are common Sharingan/Mangekyou Sharingan techs that he had seen his brother use before and copied. So is Amaterasu. Sasuke's Enton equip on Susanoo is evidence of Sasuke's copycat skills. Thats exactly how Itachi used to weild Totsuka Blade. From Madara's application of Susanoo on Kurama, he devised the technique by himself. Basically, unlike Obito, being a genius, he can copy and implement techniques he has seen once. And most of the time, perfect the application of it, like Enton > Amaterasu Madara's Susanoo Kurama armor < Sasuke's Kurama Armor Susanoo.

In this case though, even that skill of Sasuke's will not work. Because Luffy's speed and techniques come from his devil fruit powers- something Sasuke can not mimic or develop a technique of his own out of. Well, that's not the point here either. True, the Sharingan did help Sasuke, but it did not give Sasuke speed. It improved the Sharingan's ability to predict movement, thereby helping Sasuke avert potential hits with much more ease. That's not speed, thats a regular application of Observation Haki, something Enel had used on Luffy, and despite not possessing any measures or speed to aid him against Enel, Luffy defeated tagged and defeated him.

The same thing will happen with Sasuke. Sasuke can predict Luffy's movement, but thats if he is at his base. At base, current Luffy possess speed that is far greater than but within the range of Sasuke, Raikage's speed. Luffy can go G2, where his speed simply exceeds anything Sasuke has handled before. If Raikage was a ridiculous stomp, Luffy would downright destroy Sasuke. Mentioning Madara is out of the question. He is just way too fast, and way too strong for Sasuke to even come close to his power as of yet.

- And the post time skip encounter with Lee still showed him exceeding with hits despite Sharingan's movement prediction. Its the same as when Luffy accelerated to a point she was able to baffle the snake sisters using Haki to predict Luffy's movements. Nothing stops Luffy from doing the same to Sasuke.

- And, Sasuke was beaten down to a pulp. If Gaara had not intervened, he would've been dead. He was not trying very hard, considering he barely used any ninjutsu, and the fact that Gaara was able to stop Raikage means, he was not even at his top speed.

- So, you would also neglect the fact that Lee outsped Naruto there as he blitzed Madara? Are you also going to neglect Lee's superior taijutsu as opposed to Lee's, whose movements were and can be copied and used against him all too easily by a post Shippuden Sasuke?

- I know Haki doesn't work like that. However, as Luffy was made prone to genjutsu, its only fair that Haki gets a predetermined counter against genjutsu.

@princearagorn1:

Enel's precog works differently than sharingan. And enel doesn't have the combat speed feats to put him past genin levels in the category. Much less kage level.

(Don't give me that 'they're both lightening users!' argument. No HST character is, was, or will have consistent lightening level combat speed, which is over mach 15000)

Uh....Enel does possess combat speed to match up to Raikage or even beyond that level. Its extreme lowballing if you say its genin level. He kept up with Luffys reverse Gattling Gun's random movement despite being near impossible to predict. Of course, Luffy finally manages to hit him. In fact, during the initial stage of the fight, he was beating Luffy around. It was extreme WIS and PIS in that whole fight.

I think you completely missed the point of all the scans.

First, a correction: it didn't just 'look' like sasuke was as fast as non-weighted lee. He actually was as fast:

Apparently you missed the panel.

I did not miss the panel. It had as much credibility as Amaterasu being burning as hot as the sun. Showings clearly say otherwise, and the Shippuden Naruto SD fight clearly states otherwise. It was exegerration or hyperbole. Lee is clearly faster than Sasuke is on numerous instances.

Second, I'm not using the scans to claim/prove sasuke is faster than luffy. Point is, he can keep up with and fight at these speeds without a problem. Luffy achieved some actual speed after he got gear 2. Naruto genins already showed similar speeds in the first few arcs.

You can't be serious. lol Lee and Sasuke showed speed thats relative to Bellamy, thats the peak those genins managed to reach. And Bellamy is a very low tier when it comes to speed in OPverse. I've shown the video above. In both cases as Lee, Sasuke and Bellamy, they momentarily disappear from sight from the viewers. A preskip not only reacted to Bellamy, he tagged and defeated the guy with a single punch.

...Why? Lee was the fastest konoha genin. Raikage was the fastest shinobi alive at the time. Gaara trained extensively in the time between. Hell, look at his techniques against kimimaro. Post ts he already was a kage level shinobi.

Itachi is arguably one of the fastest shinobi. He already showed to be casually far faster than genin sasuke, after he had equal speed with lee, even after that speed was further amped by chidori.

You are assuming too much here. Sasuke used the speed once in battle, never again. He usually relies on genjutsu, susanoo, Kenjutsu and sometimes his Ninjutsu. Here rarely ever uses speed manuevors using Taijutsu. I've already shown Sasuke beaten by lee post shippuden in Taijutsu and speed. Sasuke DOES NOT possess speed equal to Lee.

As for Gaara, his power due to the Jinchurikki was levels above any mere Kage. And he had better control over his tailed beast as a Jinchurikki. He is no less a genius than Sasuke was. He retained the same abilities without the tailed beast. His speed though, is nowhere near enough to tag Raikage, not saying it cannot pose a problem for Raikage. Essentially, there's no point to mentioning this. Because there was no way Sasuke was touching either of them. Just the Enton proved lethal there.

cool. Manga's what counts.

The scans are not clear in the manga. Its not like the depiction of motion can be carried out exactly as the author wants it to. The anime is a definite backer to any manga related feat. You want to say otherwise? Usually, the manga and anime compliment each other, but the anime ends up showing more detail.

Now take the trail of smoke that formed around Gaara when Sasuke ran around him. There were clear and definite differences in both Lee's and Sasuke's case. If the same thing had occured, why the difference in artworks?

Yes, he has shown to react to these speeds since pre-time skip. Which was the original point.

Care to show me? I've never seen Sasuke react to hypersonic attack speeds such as G2 Luffy is capable of.

And anyway, I don't see why you are bringing up lee's supposed 'blitz' on madara, and what's this about 'outspeeding bm naruto'?. It's neither correct, nor relevant.

First, they weren't in any kind of race to reach madara. They were all going together. Unless hinata and some nameless shinobi are somehow as fast as gai, lee and naruto:

You've clearly missed them running together. And then out of nowhere Lee goes Gates and thats when the blitz happens. And no, Lee propels himself forward, I don't see where Gai comes in.

See, it was an all out herd attack on Obito and Madara. The fact that Naruto and Lee are at the peak of this herd tells us their relevence in speed. If Naruto was capable of reaching them, he would not have relied on a technique such as that. His shoulder also gave out. Naruto was clearly not a 100%.

As for the relevence factor, this is important to determine your assumption that Sasuke is as fast as Lee as wrong and baseless. Sasuke is nowhere near the speed displayed.

And second, naruto not only stays behind getting healed, he just throws FRS from where he is. And lee is apparently thrown ahead by gai

Yes, Naruto is unable to propel himself for a charge. Where did you get the idea that Lee is propelled by Gai?

Madara has repeatedly taken hits because he'd regen from them anyway. Neither of them bother doing anything in the entire time shinobi alliance runs towards them, as they expected the juubi to be auto-win. (with good reason) They were both just standing there admiring the view for quite a while:

While Obito due to his hax, I can accept that as being true, Madara clearly flinches. I can tell you, he was not welcoming the attack open armed.

Note: I think you're missing something important. Almost all animes work by scaling. Most effects demonstrating speed are used only once or twice. They don't use it every single time for the character. As an example, Bankai ichigo shows 7+ clear afterimages and slashes away senbonzakura only once. Neither aizen, nor cifer ever demonstrate that kind of speed. But they scale off him, and are considered leagues faster.

I know what you are trying to state here. However, repeated stance on a particular subject can be used to reinstate fallacies. Naruto SD's non ninjutsu battle with Lee vs Sasuke was done to show just that. Show us that Lee is the better and faster out of the two if Taijutsu is the only standing factor.

This also isolates the speed and reaction factor, making it easier to calculate. This is the same Sasuke thats in question here.

The scan you're using to show g2 luffy's speed was also done by haku/KN0 (and solidly topped by bankai ichigo, if you want a parallel continuation)

The snake sister scan? And whats the relevence of mentioning Ichigo here? whats KN0? And how do you compare Haku's speed to G2 Luffy's speed? I'm curious.

During that dome mirror technique, the mirrors were closer and adjecent to each other. Movement was fluid and distance short. It was easier for Sasuke to follow up on those compacted movements to and across from mirrors as Haku went running or charging. As Haku said, the more he used the technique infront of Sasuke, the easier it would be for him to see or otherwise predict his movement, despite which, Haku defeated Sasuke.

pre-ts sasuke clearly reacted well to both. (cifer, in bleach's case), but was unable to even see raikage (vasto lorde ichigo, in bleach's case), making raikage (or VL ichigo) faster than KN0 (or bankai ichigo)

Again, why are you mentioning Ichigo here? and whats KNO. lol No, Sasuke only managed to react to Haku a couple of times. Thats just it.

I won't be replying to the edit part. Its essentially the same thing, just repeated.

....Against Raikage, the flames were not spreading along his arm, and gave Raikage something close to about a minute before Raikage chopped his hands off. Do you know how many Armament Haki + G2 attacks Luffy can deal in that amount of time? Well over a 100 of those. Luffy may die as well, but not before Sasuke is dead.

Round 2 I believe goes to Sasuke if he manages to use Sharingan.

P.S: Phew. This entire post was tiring. I haven't written this long a post in quite a while. xD Enjoy!

@lowlaville:

You're exactly right Sasuke did copy everything and perfected it on his own, current Sasuke is more than a match for Itachi and I'd rank young kakashi and pre time skip sasuke about the same level, he always saw Sasuke as himself and Naruto and Sakura as Obito and Rin respectively. Orochimaru was consider a genius and in there training he even said that Sasuke was much stronger than him at that age. Itachi also had something Sasuke didn't a mission in which he needed extreme skills for the reason he pushed his abilities so far was to protect Sasuke had it not been for that Itachi would have just been a common warrior. Also Itachi is known for his genjutsu skill with Tsukyomi yet his best friend yielded the strongest Mangekyou Sharingan techniques, to control a person completely without them knowing making Itachi's skill in that area inferior. If the Mangekyou Sharingan techniques aren't secret then why did Sasuke's father refuse to talk about it?

Even though he can't, Sasuke really wouldn't need to copy Luffy's abilities to win. Also sasuke rarely copies jutsu the only time he used the sharingan to copy was with Lee but that's irrelevant.

Ok and as other posters mentioned what is going to put out the flames that are hot as the sun from reducing Luffy to ashes. One touch and Luffy will be on fire.

I am still not 100% sure that Luffy hits are strong enough to break through susanoo.

True Sasuke did get beaten down but he always does to analyze the opponent in the end he clearly would've won thanks to Madara's statement during his battle with the kage. Madara said Tsunade is stronger than Raikage and she was able to break susanoo's ribs. So if Raikage's strength wouldn't have broken susanoo he would have just gotta burned and Gaara is no slouch with his sand even without the aid of the shukaku, don't forget he block three Amaterasus with his sand after saving the Raikage.

True but was Naruto going full speed I only saw him fire a Rasenshuriken not trying to do a physical attack. Also Naruto's real speed although I don't know if he has mastered it yet was close to minato's as noted by yamato after he trained with bee and he broke his ankle because of his lack of control. It has still yet to be proven that Lee can keep up with that type of speed. Lee's taijutsu is superior but if Sasuke used any ninjutsu the fight would've been over and putting Sasuke up against Lee in a taijutsu match is like putting hinata against Sakura in a strength contest, Hinata can break rocks with her juken but her strength isn't as monstrous as Sakura's.

Yea but for the last one many people don't consider chakra energy, I don't know why it's all the same just the terminology varies, which makes them immune to genjutsu automatically had that not been in the OP it would be a debate over that is admissible or not.

@uchiha454: You can read what I typed in the post above for speed. I don't want to type on it anymore. lol Maybe later or tomorrow. Getting bored/tired. I'll move on straight to Luffy's strength.

This was done about a thousand feat underwater. Luffy being a df user weakened him. Despite this, Luffy had little to no trouble defeating the Kraken that was about 500 times Luffy's size.

Luffy is stronger than Zoro who can lift a building pre timeskip.

And this gold ball, estimated to be at least 700 tons.

This is pre time skip luffy. He grows much stronger post time skip. Well thats all, Im going to take a break now. Necks gonna give out. xD

@lowlaville: You did do pretty good so far I can no longer truly say that Sasuke has the first round easy, but he still does have it.

Sadly his strength feats are greater than Tsunade's but I still don't know if that makes him stronger than Tsunade honestly, if that makes sense. The rationale behind it is that Tsunade hasn't shown her full capacity of lifting yet the heaviest thing she lifting if I remember correctly is Gamabunta's sword which was building size effortlessly. Luffy looked like he had to put a little effort into building lifting and lifting that 700 ton gold ball.

Earlier you said that Sasuke is a genius, this is a major component for Sasuke's victory as it relates to his counter for speed. Sasuke is able to develop stratagems instantly that will throw most off balance or leave a opening. For instance look at the first stages of his and Itachi's fight

He used speed and deception to strike a hit against a faster opponent while overall this did fail as Itachi placed him in Tsukyomi it still demonstrates his way of thinking. Luffy doesn't have genjutsu so what's to stop Sasuke from using this but overall Sasuke's biggest advantage is that he is a shinobi.

In this battle even though they're close range, Sasuke's ninja skills will give him a huge advantage, Luffy doesn't have byakugan so how will he distinguish between clones, which Sasuke has been able to perfectly do since before he was a genin. Luffy also has to deal with smoke bombs, rigged shuriken, clones, and substitution justu. Those are all basic abilities of a shinobi even if Luffy knows them, he probably won't know how to get around them.

I think that in round one, even though Luffy is faster and stronger, Sasuke's reaction time and deception techniques are able dodge his attacks and acquire an opening. How will Luffy overcome the basic shinobi techniques?

Tough call.

@uchiha454:

There's one point worth replying here. Against Itachi, you know, Itachi was going easy on Sasuke. He could have killed Itachi any second he wanted. As for ninjutsu and basic shinobi techniques, thats not going to happen. Did you watch Luffy's fight with blueno? the door guy. Clones and Smokebombs are pretty much are non factor here. Luffy's reaction speed is top notch. There's a video of Luffy punching Bellamy above (or on the other page I think). Luffy could react to Blueno despite him using an alternate dimension to travel around. He will have no trouble reacting either way.

@lowlaville: Unless I seen the wrong video how is that on the level of a konoha genin or even academy student?

You failed to see the point. Blueno is faster, faster than most narutoverse characters. He was trying to sneak up on G2 Luffy. Luffy said his reaction speed then was x10 instant. He can react to clones or smokebombs or anything on the matter. In fact, Sasuke can make all the clones he want (he was never a clone user. He uses Shunshin), nothing stops Luffy from destroying them all.

@lowlaville: He used clones and substitution to through off opponents like Itachi. I still see Luffy throwing 500 punches at a log and Sasuke burning him with Amaterasu before Luffy realizes its a log.

Thats not happening. Luffy has reacted much faster than that. And here he's telling pre time skip how much his speed increases during G2 Even assuming an instant is the blink of an eye, Luffy is moving ten times that. Post time skip he is much faster.

Say he does get to Sasuke before he can substitute, it then just becomes a battle of Luffy breaking through susanoo and beating him to death vs Sasuke's amaterasu buring him alive right?