For those who say adult forms are much stronger, both Naruto and Sasuke were nerfed but still defeated Momoshiki. But against Madara they literally couldn’t even touch him (they tried to seal him) and was stated to have no way of defeating him by Kishimoto.
This is a denying the antecedent fallacy. While Momoshiki did fail to beat Naruto and Sasuke, while Madara had the possibility of doing so, You're ignoring the fact that Momoshiki lost to stronger forms of the duo, while Madara had the possibility of beating a weaker versions. Adult Sasuke was drained from interdimensional travel and adult Naruto from having his chakre being absorbed, but teen Naruto had split himself up into thousands of clones, gave enough chakra to a few thousand shinobi to power them up by 3x their own chakra levels, while both of them fought several battles non-stop in a war and fired off tons of chakra expensive jutsu. So they would conceivably be a way more weakened than the adult versions. Who madara still could have lost to.
Not correct for a few reasons:
- Naruto said himself that he used Kurama Sage Mode, a more efficient form of Sage Mode, to replenish his chakra during the war. Meanwhile Adult Naruto can't do the same as they were fighting in the barren wasteland, with natural energy already sucked dry by the Otsutsuki clan.
- It wasn't non-stop as Naruto was unconcious right before his fight against Madara.
- Hagoromo literally gave him chakra.
- He literally had a fresh Kyuubi before fighting Madara. It is different from the one he share the chakra with Shinobi Alliance.
- By your logic, I can say the same that the Yang Kurama in Adult Naruto doesn't have as much chakra as you claim. Especially when he actually disintegrated from Indra's arrow.
For the sake of argument, I'm saying Naruto from Madara's fight has the same amount of chakra as Naruto in Momoshiki fight. That is already lowball.
Momoshiki can’t absorb anything he wants. For example he can’t absorb Susanoo if used as defense, nor could he absorb Chibaku Tensei which Madara can made them rain in final form.
Wouldn't need to, he'd break the susanoo and break out of the chibaku tensei, like he did to adult sasuke(who is stronger than three eyed madara)
Adult Sasuke is weaker than 3 eyed Madara for a few reasons:
- Madara has larger chakra reserves. This is no brainer. His Susanoo is the size of the Juubi which massively dwarfs Sasuke's.
- Madara have everything Sasuke has except Amenojikara, portal opening. Madara gains Preta and Deva path after obtaining the second Rinnegan, in case if you're wondering why he didn't use Preta Path against Naruto's Lava Rasenshuriken.
- Madara is highly resistant to Ninjutsu, leaving Sasuke with only Taijutsu since he don't have Sage Mode.
- Madara is one of the best fighter in Shinobi history.
And also, Madara's Chibaku Tensei is different from Sasuke's. He rains meterors from the sky, not contain him in one. And I have not seen him breaking a Susanoo before. Even Kurama avatar, which is usually deemed same if not weaker than Susanoo, managed to contain the size of Momoshiki's bomb within the radius of a soccer field.
They wouldn't be strong enough or fast enough to do any damage. They'd just be more madaras to him
In Ultimate Ninja Storm 4 they are portrayed as being able to use Susanoo themselves (regular sized ones). Yes it's non-canon, but it isn't hard to believe either considering Naruto's Shadow Clones and Edo Madara's wood clones were able to do the same.
Coming back to the topic:
- Sasuke's statement on "a threat greater than Kaguya" was based on the fact that he just learned that Kaguya was preparing a Zetsu army, which logically speaking it is absolutely true. He wasn't referring to the original Otsutsuki clan because he has no idea about their existence, but doesn't Kaguya wasn't preparing the Zetsu army for them.
- When Kaguya was preparing the Zetsu army, she was much weaker than the Rabbit form in modern day so much so she is incapable of chakra-taxing abilities such as environment change, portal creation and ETSB. So while you can argue Momoshiki is more powerful than ancient Kaguya, the modern Kaguya has feats way above Momoshiki.
- Madara, again, has everything Momoshiki has. Momoshiki's absorption is basically Madara's Preta Path. Not to mention Madara is highly resistant to Ninjutsu physically. Meaning Madara can still hurt Momoshiki if he manages to avoid his right palm (like Sasuke's chidori), but Momoshiki can't damage him with Ninjutsu anyway he hits, since he is incapable of Senjutsu either as far as I know.
- So it comes down to Taijutsu. For fighting skills there is no way to prove which one is superior. Madara is the most skilled in Shinobi history but you can just say Momoshiki's performance was not bad. As for speed, that depends on the chakra levels.
- Madara's chakra reserves are definitely larger than Momoshiki's for reasons I have stated. Momoshiki absorbed the 8-tails and half of nine tails, all of which Madara already has plus the other Tailed Beasts, plus the God Tree, plus Six Paths Senjutsu, depending on battle location. If you say that base Momoshiki is already that of those other tailed beasts, maybe because he defeated Bee, remember than Kinshiki was also there. So there is absolutely no way of proving that.
- Instead, because Naruto and Sasuke were nerfed, not only in terms of chakra reserves, but Sasuke also lost his dominant hand which greatly hinders his Taijutsu (which is more important because its their main move against Momoshiki).
- Teen Sasuke and Naruto wasn't aiming to defeat Madara. They were aiming to just touch him. I have to emphasise this because even if you argue that adults are way stronger, not even able to touch him just deteriorates your argument even more.
P.S. I've watched some of SeththeProgrammer's videos. Some of the things are just factually wrong like Madara's Tengai Shinsei being multi continental, Hagoromo having "spammable Izanagi" or Sasuke stronger than Madara. Can't go too in-depth into all of these.
Well put. Its really refreshing to know that there still users in this site actually has understood the story well.