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#1 Posted by Erkan12 (8359 posts) - - Show Bio
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VS.

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Settings

  • Distance : 10 M
  • No prior knowldge
  • Random encounter
  • Location: Coruscant Jedi Temple
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#2 Posted by Erkan12 (8359 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by DarthWill3 (217 posts) - - Show Bio

That's a tough one. Knowing Momin, though, he'd likely try to be sneaky.

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#4 Posted by RGR (366 posts) - - Show Bio

Momin defeated his Sith Master and his attempt to freeze time seemed to require great power, though it's not clear whether it would have worked had the Jedi not appeared. It's hard to say, but to me he came across as more impressive than Ahsoka.

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#5 Edited by Jacthripper (14894 posts) - - Show Bio

This reminds me to go read the new Vader comic, thanks!

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#6 Posted by Jacthripper (14894 posts) - - Show Bio

And having read the comic, Momin barely has any feats, except for his capacity for sick burns.

Ouch, that hurts
Ouch, that hurts

I'd give Ahsoka a solid victory.

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#7 Posted by AlexTheBoss (16977 posts) - - Show Bio

I have to say I really liked Momin. He is one of my favorite comic book original characters along side Vader's two murderous versions of C3P0 and R2.

However when it comes to combat, he admitted his inferiority to Vader, and only ever had a chance due to Vader already being weakened, and still lost. Ahsoka takes this pretty convincingly.

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#8 Posted by BreakOfDawn (1576 posts) - - Show Bio

Ahsoka handily.

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#9 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2408 posts) - - Show Bio

However when it comes to combat, he admitted his inferiority to Vader, and only ever had a chance due to Vader already being weakened, and still lost.

Weakened is an understatement, lol. He could barely stand.

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#10 Posted by Amonfire1776 (2919 posts) - - Show Bio

Ashsoka wins...

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#11 Posted by RGR (366 posts) - - Show Bio

Upon further consideration, I changed my mind. I don't think Ahsoka would be crushed so easily. She should win this.

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#12 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16235 posts) - - Show Bio

Tano.

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#13 Edited by Kurk (290 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader never impressed me in the Canon Comics (or Rebels) as a duelist, so Momin's demonstrations against him don't really mean much--especially since Vader was weakened. Meanwhile, you have Tano holding her own against him while on a possible dark-side nexus. Ahsoka likely wins.

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#14 Posted by Necromancer76 (3769 posts) - - Show Bio

Ahsoka

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#15 Posted by Co-Boss (433 posts) - - Show Bio

Everytime I forget how badass Darth Vader is one of these comics come out, his line when crushing momin was awesome. On topic, ahsoka

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#16 Posted by xolthol (931 posts) - - Show Bio

momin have too many advantages when facing vader. But Ashoka have been literraly stomp by Vader.... No precise idea

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#17 Edited by deactivated-5c359ed39a233 (290 posts) - - Show Bio

Likely Ahsoka

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#18 Posted by deactivated-5c359ed39a233 (290 posts) - - Show Bio

@xolthol said:

momin have too many advantages when facing vader. But Ashoka have been literraly stomp by Vader.... No precise idea

Not sure what you are trying to say but Ahsoka never stomped Vader nor did Vader stomp Ahsoka. In the end Vader won in a challenging duel

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#19 Posted by xolthol (931 posts) - - Show Bio

@samtheg:

Ashoka have been decimated by Vader.

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#20 Edited by Dawn_of_Ages (2408 posts) - - Show Bio

@xolthol said:

@samtheg:

Ashoka have been decimated by Vader.

👍 Filoni confirms it. But not a stomp though. Meanwhile, an exhausted massively pre-prime Vader literally squished Momin like a bug.

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#21 Posted by deactivated-5c359ed39a233 (290 posts) - - Show Bio

@kurk said:

Vader never impressed me in the Canon Comics (or Rebels) as a duelist, so Momin's demonstrations against him don't really mean much--especially since Vader was weakened. Meanwhile, you have Tano holding her own against him while on a possible dark-side nexus. Ahsoka likely wins.

Canon nexuses work completely different to legends. No point in bringing that up when we have no way to gauge how powerful nexuses are in canon. For all we know the creators don't really care about that kind of stuff

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#22 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2408 posts) - - Show Bio

The Inquisitors' ability to fly (probably one of the dumbest thing in SW) was attributed to Malachor being a nexus. They also seemed to have performed better against Ahsoka on Malachor than they did on Takobo.

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#23 Posted by RGR (366 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages: Yet Maul, who is supposedly Ahsoka's superior, only stalemated her there. Pablo Hidalgo also said that the Inquisitors' lightsabers had repulsorlift tech, FWIW.

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#24 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3401 posts) - - Show Bio
@rgr said:

@dawn_of_ages: Yet Maul, who is supposedly Ahsoka's superior, only stalemated her there. Pablo Hidalgo also said that the Inquisitors' lightsabers had repulsorlift tech, FWIW.

A 20 second duel is an accurate measurment of power?

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#25 Posted by RGR (366 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3: You also have Kanan's performance against Maul. I think it's pretty clear that Malachor doesn't affect combative capabilities in any meaningful way.

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#26 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3401 posts) - - Show Bio

@rgr said:

@arkhamasylum3: You also have Kanan's performance against Maul. I think it's pretty clear that Malachor doesn't affect combative capabilities in any meaningful way.

Kanan's performance against Maul? You mean the one where Maul underestimated him and Kanan was significantly boosted. Seems legit.

BTW I don't actually think the writers of the show think about stuff like nexus's ect while writing so there's really no reason to discuss this. I'm just pointing out neither of these two showings are accurate measures of power.

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#27 Posted by RGR (366 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3: Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I do think Maul is far above Kanan, what I'm disputing is Malachor having an influence in fights, since Maul (a dark side user) didn't seem to be amped against Kanan at all.

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#28 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2408 posts) - - Show Bio

@rgr said:

@dawn_of_ages: Yet Maul, who is supposedly Ahsoka's superior, only stalemated her there.

That's impressive deduction for a fight that barely lasts half a minute.

Pablo Hidalgo also said that the Inquisitors' lightsabers had repulsorlift tech, FWIW.

Quote?

I also recall him stating on twitter a couple of years that it could possibly amp dark siders combatively. Though he never confirmed that it did only said that it was a possibility.

You also have Kanan's performance against Maul.

In a state akin to Oneness.

BTW I don't actually think the writers of the show think about stuff like nexus's

👍 Tbh.

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#29 Edited by RGR (366 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages said:

@rgr said:

@dawn_of_ages: Yet Maul, who is supposedly Ahsoka's superior, only stalemated her there.

That's impressive deduction for a fight that barely lasts half a minute.

Well, I merely pointed out what happened, I'm not claiming they are equals. The fight was short admittedly, but it doesn't look to me like the superior opponent (Maul) was amped.

@dawn_of_ages said:

Quote?

I also recall him stating on twitter a couple of years that it could possibly amp dark siders combatively. Though he never confirmed that it did only said that it was a possibility.

That's interesting tbh. The quote is in this video. I also read that the Visual Encyclopedia confirms the repulsorlift thingy, though I don't own that book. If someone does, I'd be grateful if you could check it out.

@dawn_of_ages said:

You also have Kanan's performance against Maul.

In a state akin to Oneness.

But that's the thing, how come Kanan was amped and Maul wasn't in a supposed dark side nexus?

@dawn_of_ages said:
@arkhamasylum3 said:

BTW I don't actually think the writers of the show think about stuff like nexus's

👍 Tbh.

Agree with both of you.

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#30 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3401 posts) - - Show Bio

@rgr said:

@arkhamasylum3: Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I do think Maul is far above Kanan, what I'm disputing is Malachor having an influence in fights, since Maul (a dark side user) didn't seem to be amped against Kanan at all.

Thing is though you can't really conclude that Maul wasn't amped. Your just basing that off him losing to Kanan in a highly contextual fight which I pointed out.

Anyways as I said I don't really think we need to discuss this because I agree with your stance just for entirely different reasons. I don't think the show writers really think about stuff like nexus's when they write fights.

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#31 Edited by BreakOfDawn (1576 posts) - - Show Bio

Ahsoka. Holding your own against a more skilled and powerful Vader for a small amount of time trumps defeating a wounded, tired and weaker iteration.

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#32 Edited by Erkan12 (8359 posts) - - Show Bio

@rgr said:

@arkhamasylum3: Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I do think Maul is far above Kanan, what I'm disputing is Malachor having an influence in fights, since Maul (a dark side user) didn't seem to be amped against Kanan at all.

Malachor has no amplification for the darksiders, if it was then the Sith wouldn't lose the fight against the Jedi on Malachor in the first place.

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#33 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3401 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: That doesn't prove anything lmao. Jedi beating the Sith on a DS nexus isn't implausible. You're just jumping to far fetched conclusions based on the fact that the Sith lost a battle to the Jedi. We have no idea as to the context.

Besides I don't really care whether it is or isn't a nexus because the writers of these shows most likely don't think about that kind of stuff anyway.

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#34 Edited by Erkan12 (8359 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3 said:

@erkan12: That doesn't prove anything lmao. Jedi beating the Sith on a DS nexus isn't implausible. You're just jumping to far fetched conclusions based on the fact that the Sith lost a battle to the Jedi. We have no idea as to the context.

Besides I don't really care whether it is or isn't a nexus because the writers of these shows most likely don't think about that kind of stuff anyway.

Unless the ancient Jedi was way above the ancient Sith, then yeah it's implausible. When he is amped, Dooku was able to held his own against even Yoda on Vjun, and that's at least 1 huge tier difference between a tier 8 and a tier 9.

What kind of context you're expecting when it's an all out and large battle like 100 Jedi v 100 Sith ? 2 or 3 circumstantial fights can happen, but it can't happen all the time, and Sith still lost that huge battle against the Jedi, if it was a DS nexus for the Dark Siders then they wouldn't lose in the first place.

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#35 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3401 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12:

Unless the ancient Jedi was way above the ancient Sith, then yeah it's implausible. When he is amped, Dooku was able to held his own against even Yoda on Vjun, and that's at least 1 huge tier difference between a tier 8 and a tier 9.

Woah. Completely different nexus there man. This could easily be a DS nexus. It doesn't have to amp people to the same extent as that one and can easily be far less potent.

What kind of context you're expecting when it's an all out and large battle like 100 Jedi v 100 Sith ? 2 or 3 circumstantial fights can happen, but it can't happen all the time, and Sith still lost that huge battle against the Jedi, if it was a DS nexus for the Dark Siders then they wouldn't lose in the first place.

Maybe the Jedi had greater numbers. Maybe they had a positional advantage. Maybe it was an ambush. The point is we don't know and your just making basic assumptions that the planet wasn't a nexus based on the Jedi beating Sith in a battle that for all we know could have been contextual. You're just desperate to prove it's not a nexus because it makes Maul look bad. I don't care whether it's a nexus or not because I know the show writers don't think about that kind of stuff.

Meanwhile you're trying desperately hard to prove it wasn't a nexus based on nothing. Bring me a statement saying it wasn't a nexus or just ignore this discussion altogether because there isn't actually any proof (as far as I'm aware) that it was a nexus. I'm not arguing for it being a nexus just pointing out your horrendous logic in arguing ot wasn't a nexus.

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#36 Edited by Erkan12 (8359 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3 said:

@erkan12:

Unless the ancient Jedi was way above the ancient Sith, then yeah it's implausible. When he is amped, Dooku was able to held his own against even Yoda on Vjun, and that's at least 1 huge tier difference between a tier 8 and a tier 9.

Woah. Completely different nexus there man. This could easily be a DS nexus. It doesn't have to amp people to the same extent as that one and can easily be far less potent.

What kind of context you're expecting when it's an all out and large battle like 100 Jedi v 100 Sith ? 2 or 3 circumstantial fights can happen, but it can't happen all the time, and Sith still lost that huge battle against the Jedi, if it was a DS nexus for the Dark Siders then they wouldn't lose in the first place.

Maybe the Jedi had greater numbers. Maybe they had a positional advantage. Maybe it was an ambush. The point is we don't know and your just making basic assumptions that the planet wasn't a nexus based on the Jedi beating Sith in a battle that for all we know could have been contextual. You're just desperate to prove it's not a nexus because it makes Maul look bad. I don't care whether it's a nexus or not because I know the show writers don't think about that kind of stuff.

Meanwhile you're trying desperately hard to prove it wasn't a nexus based on nothing. Bring me a statement saying it wasn't a nexus or just ignore this discussion altogether because there isn't actually any proof (as far as I'm aware) that it was a nexus. I'm not arguing for it being a nexus just pointing out your horrendous logic in arguing ot wasn't a nexus.

Now you're bullshitting,

Jedi had greater numbers; it could be or Sith had greater numbers, we don't know, all we know that Sith lost it without any mention of having an advantage or a disadvantage.

Positional advantage; this isn't a freaking clone army and the droids, they are using lightsabers to fight. Plus, Sith would know better the locations of Malachor in comparison with the Jedi.

Ambush; Again; they are not using long ranged weapons, and unless they invaded Malachor without being detected (which is near impossible considering the amount of the Jedi) they needed to get close to them first.

I don't have any need to prove it, Ahsoka was able to held her own against Vader, if it was a DS nexus it wouldn't happen. I really don't care about Maul or Kanan, even if you try to lowball Maul, then you need to lowball Vader if you believe it's a DS nexus, which would be stupid considering the power difference between Vader and Ahsoka, if Vader was amped then that would be a stomp.

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#37 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3401 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12:

Now you're bullshitting,

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Jedi had greater numbers; it could be or Sith had greater numbers, we don't know, yet they still lost it.

Concession accepted. This is exactly the point I'm trying to get across. We don't know. You're arguing that the Jedi beat Sith on Malachor so it can't be a nexus and I argued that we don't know the circumstance so it's irrelevant and we cannot conclude whether Malachor is or isn't a nexus. I was using numbers as an example as to potential context to the battle. You're trying to place the burden of proof on me to prove that the Jedi had greater numbers than the Sith but the burden of proof is actually on you to prove that Malachor isn't a nexus. I'm just giving logical reasons as to why the Sith could have lost the battle despite Malchor being a nexus. You're just baselessly assuming Malachor isn't a nexus based on the Sith losing a battle which could have been contextual.

Positional advantage; this isn't a freaking clone army and the droids, they are using lightsabers to fight.

Positional advantage can be a thing in sword fights you know. There are these things called hills where people will have dare I say it:

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Seriously it is an actual advantage.

Also such things as strongholds exist as well.

Ambush; Again; they are not using long ranged weapons, and unless they invaded Malachor without being detected (which is near impossible considering the amount of the Jedi) they needed to get close to them first.

Yes an ambush is an advantage. Generally if you surprise an enemy you have a higher chance of winning. Ambushes are still possible with short range weapons.

I don't have any need to prove it, Ahsoka was able to held her own against Vader, if it was a DS nexus it wouldn't happen.

Proof of this is?

I really don't care about Maul or Kanan, even if you try to lowball Maul, then you need to lowball Vader if you believe it's a DS nexus, which would be stupid considering the power difference between Vader and Ahsoka, if Vader was amped then that would be a stomp.

Once again you have no proof. Also I don't want to lowball these characters. Do I literally have to say to you for the one thousandth time that I don't care because I know the show writers obviously didn't think about this kind of stuff while writing it.

I'm just pointing out your logic is horrible.

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#38 Edited by Erkan12 (8359 posts) - - Show Bio
@arkhamasylum3 said:

@erkan12:

Now you're bullshitting,

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Jedi had greater numbers; it could be or Sith had greater numbers, we don't know, yet they still lost it.

Concession accepted. This is exactly the point I'm trying to get across. We don't know. You're arguing that the Jedi beat Sith on Malachor so it can't be a nexus and I argued that we don't know the circumstance so it's irrelevant and we cannot conclude whether Malachor is or isn't a nexus. I was using numbers as an example as to potential context to the battle. You're trying to place the burden of proof on me to prove that the Jedi had greater numbers than the Sith but the burden of proof is actually on you to prove that Malachor isn't a nexus. I'm just giving logical reasons as to why the Sith could have lost the battle despite Malchor being a nexus. You're just baselessly assuming Malachor isn't a nexus based on the Sith losing a battle which could have been contextual.

The thing is, the percentage of the possibility of these excuses is like ; %10 at best, I mean;

The chances of the Jedi having a greater number against the Sith while Jedi were the one that attacked the Sith temple is a pretty low one. Usually Sith should've been more crowded, not the other way around.

Taking a better positioning on a planet that they are not familiar with?A very very low possibility.

@arkhamasylum3 said:

Positional advantage; this isn't a freaking clone army and the droids, they are using lightsabers to fight.

Positional advantage can be a thing in sword fights you know. There are these things called hills where people will have dare I say it:

No Caption Provided

Seriously it is an actual advantage.

Unless they are not fighting on a Lava planet and unless every one of the Sith stands on a lava river against the Jedi who were waiting at the rear, then I don't see how they can take any advantage similar to that one.

That positioning advantage was not something you can get before the fight starts, you can drag your opponent by using Sokan during the duel, it's not something you can do before the fight.

@arkhamasylum3 said:

Ambush; Again; they are not using long ranged weapons, and unless they invaded Malachor without being detected (which is near impossible considering the amount of the Jedi) they needed to get close to them first.

Yes an ambush is an advantage. Generally if you surprise an enemy you have a higher chance of winning. Ambushes are still possible with short range weapons.

Again, ambushing their Force users opponents on a planet that they are not familiar with, is a pretty low possibility. I mean I can't even believe that the Jedi could actually ambush Mandalorians on Mandalore, let alone ambushing the Sith lords on Malachor....

@arkhamasylum3 said:

I don't have any need to prove it, Ahsoka was able to held her own against Vader, if it was a DS nexus it wouldn't happen.

Proof of this is?

Common sense I guess, I mean Ahsoka can't hold his own against an amped post-LotS Vader. She was almost fodderized by Sidious from another planet even with Ezra Bridger's help.

@arkhamasylum3 said:

I really don't care about Maul or Kanan, even if you try to lowball Maul, then you need to lowball Vader if you believe it's a DS nexus, which would be stupid considering the power difference between Vader and Ahsoka, if Vader was amped then that would be a stomp.

Also I don't want to lowball these characters. Do I literally have to say to you for the one thousandth time that I don't care because I know the show writers obviously didn't think about this kind of stuff while writing it.

I'm just pointing out your logic is horrible.

Then don't.

If there was any amplification, they would let us know. If not in the show, then after the show by using the interviews with media. I've never read in any source that Malachor actually amped the dark siders.

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#39 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3401 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12:

The thing is, the percentage of the possibility of these excuses is like ; %10 at best, I mean;

The chances of the Jedi having a greater number against the Sith while Jedi were the one that attacked the Sith temple is a pretty low one. Usually Sith should've been more crowded, not the other way around.

Well the Sith had roughly equal numbers to the Jedi when they attacked the Jedi Temple during the Sacking of Coruscant in 3653 BBY (link) so it's not that implausible especially since this was more than likely a pre-planned strike with the Jedi bringing the correct numbers to deal with the Sith Forces.

Note: While I know the Sacking of Coruscant happened in Legends and not canon the principles of both these instances are basically the same (Jedi vs Sith with it being on the others turf) so it shouldn't matter all that much.

Taking a better positioning on a planet that they are not familiar with?A very very low possibility.

The Jedi didn't do surveys of the planet despite it being in Sith territory? I find it very unlikely the Jedi just randomly attacked a major Sith Planet with no prior knowledge or any kind of plan. You're acting like the Jedi strolled along onto the Sith Planet with no preparation which would be incredibly implausible and it would also make no sense for the Jedi to do so and would be incredibly poor military planning on the Jedi's part.

The crux of what you're arguing is that the Sith had greater numbers, the Jedi were unprepared and the Jedi had no notable advantages and still won? Kinda illogical.

Unless they are not fighting on a Lava planet and unless every one of the Sith stands on a lava river against the Jedi who were waiting at the rear, then I don't see how they can take any advantage similar to that one.

Not what I was referring to. That was meant as a joke lmao. I meant that the high ground can be an advantage and it's significantly harder to fight uphill rather than down so if an army were to position themselves at the top of a hill it would be significantly harder for there opposing forces to defeat them.

That positioning advantage was not something you can get before the fight starts, you can drag your opponent by using Sokan during the duel, it's not something you can do before the fight.

In major battles preparation is required so yes if there is a confrontation between two armies one of the armies can choose a postion. It's not that hard to understand.

Again, ambushing their Force users opponents on a planet that they are not familiar with, is a pretty low possibility. I mean I can't even believe that the Jedi could actually ambush Mandalorians on Mandalore, let alone ambushing the Sith lords on Malachor....

Once again see the Sacking of Coruscant. The Republic despite it being their homeworld werecompletely unprepared for a Sith assault.

Common sense I guess, I mean Ahsoka can't hold his own against an amped post-LotS Vader.

When was this?

She was almost fodderized by Sidious from another planet even with Ezra Bridger's help.

Hold up second here. Why are you using feats for Sidious to determine Vader's standpoint relevant to Ashoka? Why are using an example of something which would happen to Vader? And don't bring up the AEYNTK list because that's only lightsaber duelling skills (and even then that list isn't accurate at all but I'm not in the mood to discuss it) whereas we have the fact that Vader was terrified of Sidious's power and wouldn't dare attack his master for over 2 decades. Vader may be comparable as a duellist (highly disputable) but he most certainly isn't comparable as a Force User.

Then don't.

I still feel the need to address your faulty logic.

If there was any amplification, they would let us know. If not in the show, then after the show by using the interviews with media. I've never read in any source that Malachor actually amped the dark siders.

I believe @dawn_of_ages has a source which confirms Malachor was a DS nexus. Not that I care either way as from a writing standpoint it doesn't matter because the writers don't think about that kind of stuff when writing the show.

@dawn_of_ages do you have the quote of Malachor being a DS nexus?

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#40 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2408 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:No definitive quote proclaims it to be a nexus that amplifies combative abilities to my knowledge. Only that Gilroy referred to it as a "Dark Side hotspot" that "allowed the Inquisitors to fly" or something along those lines.

I wouldn't share it even if it did because it lowers Maul and Vader

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#41 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3401 posts) - - Show Bio

@dawn_of_ages said:

@arkhamasylum3:No definitive quote proclaims it to be a nexus that amplifies combative abilities to my knowledge. Only that Gilroy referred to it as a "Dark Side hotspot" that "allowed the Inquisitors to fly" or something along those lines.

I wouldn't share it even if it did because it lowers Maul and Vader

Okay. As I said though it doesn't really matter to me either way and I most certainly don't want to lower Maaul and Vader.

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#42 Posted by AmazonessFighter (12 posts) - - Show Bio

Momin is not a fighter, he is no wimp, but I dont see him past Ep I Maul, maybe he might be as weak as Ventress. Yes he was a Sith, but in the Era where many Sith lived and these were subpar to Banite Siths.

I think he is potentially the most powerful Sith ever in either canon or legends, surpassed only by the Kyle Katarn in the dark side ending. Had Momin managed to control the energy he was harnessing with the time freeze before the Jedi arrived, or had he managed to get rid of Vader allowing him to hold monopoly over the door to the darkside, I have little doubt he could annihilate Sidious like Yoda could annihilate a Padawan. Vader indeed proved to be the Chosen One by defeating Momin and saving the galaxy by preventing him from keeping the door.

But as it stands with the power he actually had, Momin gets defeated by Ahsoka.

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#43 Posted by xolthol (931 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Posted by deactivated-5c4df01082e4b (340 posts) - - Show Bio
I think he is potentially the most powerful Sith ever in either canon or legends, surpassed only by the Kyle Katarn in the dark side ending.
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#45 Posted by DeutschKurzhaar (1428 posts) - - Show Bio

Idk, Momin got beat by Vader pretty simply