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#1 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14710 posts) - - Show Bio

Multimedia Mid Tier Tournament

@beatboks1

  • Dr Occult
  • Devil Slayer
  • Perk: Speed equal

@major_hellstorm

  • Aspen Matthews
  • Aquaman (Post Flashpoint) (Poseidon's Blessing)
  • Perk: Location Switch

Rules

  • Standard morals (without perk)
  • Standard gear (unless prepped)
  • No prep (without perk)
  • No knowledge (without perk)
  • Win by KO, Incapacitation, & Death
  • No leaving the battlefield
  • 15 meters apart

Location: Pirates of The Caribbean Ship

  • Indestructible Unsinkable ship
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#2 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18024 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: Can I make this the location?

https://www.google.com.ph/search?q=pirates+of+the+caribbean+ship&tbm=isch&tbs=simg:CAQSlwEJv-9BVX_11DmMaiwELEKjU2AQaBAgACAMMCxCwjKcIGmIKYAgDEiiOC5ILjQuLC4oLwQrnFY8LkAuMC8kisSrnKOQotDfHIuk5pDejKqw3GjA7mkMJ1SxZl995STqeZqjiigXJGEf7RazzLyKvR7jqVwx7Az5zmYdS6bnlxO9Z2k4gBAwLEI6u_1ggaCgoICAESBBZVlPoM&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwibhd642NDWAhWFxbwKHfgZD6IQ2A4IISgB&biw=1024&bih=653#imgrc=YzSCYLnWktPLUM:

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#3 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14710 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: Sure. But if it's not a bother can I make it an indestructible unsinkable ship?

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#4 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18024 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: Yeah okay. Also the starting distance is 15 meters on top of the ship.

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#5 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18024 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Posted by beatboks1 (10120 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18024 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: Here is a quick intro, I won't get into Aquaman's elemental abilities or Aspen's physical abilities here but it will be mentioned later on when needed.

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Strength:

Aquaman is a powerhouse and is probably the strongest fighter in this match. For starters Aquaman has the strength to move a massive submarine

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In terms of striking, he can punch a zombie Hercules (who he was previously struggling with) across an island

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And with his trident, he could pierce Darkseid himself

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Speed:

Aquaman may not be the fastest man on the league but he is fast enough to react to blasts from Black Manta

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He can also leap away like the Hulk (not sure if this is strength or speed)

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Durability:

In terms of durability he can take as much as he gives. Which is as much as most N52 high tiers as you can see here as he tanks a hit from a giant monster which takes out WW

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And here he is taking a hit from Wonder Woman

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Telepathy:

Offensive telepapthy may be banned but that doesn't stop Aquaman from summoning sea creatures to aid him in battle like so

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Aspen Matthews

Aspen Matthews is basically Mera but stronger.

Hydrokinesis:

Aspen is one of the strongest Hydrokinetic fighters in fiction IMO and she has the feats to back it up, for example she increases water preasure in a submarine which badly damages it while also lifting it towards the surface

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And here she is creating massive whirlpools and lifting them

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She can even turn into water (making physical attacks pointless against her)

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And fire energy blasts

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#9 Edited by beatboks1 (10120 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm:

Doctor Occult

Richard Occult has normal human level physicals in all regards (Strength, durability and speed). In this tourney however due to the speed equalize perk he is equal to my adversary.

Zator, one of the group known as the Seven Trained Richard Occult and Rose Psychic in the ways of magic from infancy, even granting Richard the powerful Mystic Symbol of the Seven.

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As a result of his training he gained these

powers

  • Astral Projection
  • Hypnosis
  • Illusion Casting
  • Magic
  • Psychic
  • Telethapy
  • Telekinesis

He is capable of creating illusions with a mystical form of hypnosis, moving small objects with his mind, travelling instantly anywhere thru the astral plane

His disk also allows him protection from magic, magical blasts, to open portals for others to travel thru, and to create shields

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The disk allows Richard one other thing. It gives him a means of always being intimately knowledgeable about who he meats instantly. This is because it allows him to strep outside time and watch the past unfold (without actually being able to interact with it or affect it) between the seconds.

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Scan 1 Occult knows more about a man the "trenchcoat brigade" just met than even the night omnipotent Phantom Stranger. The next three are from the books of magic where he takes Tim Hunter to observe the creation of everything (also states they are not participants). then there is taking Superman outside time to watch Doomsday kill him. The last two he shows intimate knowledge of Jared stevens (that he has just met) as well as of the threat that he been preparing to face him.

So While I don't have a perk, due to character selection I have full knowledge of your team

Devil Slayer

Simon Payne also has normal human physicals

Vera Gemini and her Cult of the Harvesters of Eyes, recruited Payne, honed his psychic powers and gave him his Shadow-Cloak. He quit upon learning that they wished to bring about Xenogenesis, restoring to prominence an ancient demon race that once ruled the Earth. Taking the name "Devil-Slayer," he dedicated himself to fighting demons.

powers

  • Danger Sense
  • Healing
  • Illusion Casting
  • Levitation
  • Psionic/Telepathy
  • Telekinesis
  • Teleportation/dimensional travel

His Cloak also allows him to pull an endless supply of weapons from it and to travel or send others to other places via dimensional travel

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Considerations

  1. my team will know your team intimately moments into the battle
  2. my team will not fight physically it isn't their way.
  3. while basically street level in physicals each of my team fight high order demons, and hell lords (that type of thing) well above my opponents team members
  4. with speed equalized, both my team members having danger sense or 6th sense and instantaineous travel your team will never even hit mine.
  5. energy and magic attacks are useless against my team as the disk of the 7 wlil absorb all such attacks (and the usual argument that I don't have time to use the disk when I use Occult fails due to speed equalized perk

Battle

As both my team are able to cast illusions they will create illusions of themselves all over the battle field. Occult will also make himself and Devilslayer appear to be the size of an ant. This will mean that my opponent wont be able to perceive my location and will be busy attacking fake me's.

The rules state no offensive TP but Occult's illusions aren't TP and while DS's are it is only defensive (as he has never attacked a mind only distracted or . So while Aquaman might be able to pierce DS's illusions with his own TP he won't be able to pierce Occult's.

Any use of the trident that pierced Darksied against my team will be simple dimensionally transported into the back of my opponents. Similarly any attacks of water pressure that reach my team are BFR'd. This makes the strength and physical abilities of my adversaries meaningless as they can't be brought to bear against my team. You;ll notice the first two scans I have of DS have him casually BFR Hulk. Now removal from the battlefield isn't allowed under the rules but nothing says I can't move you to other points of the battlefield.

All the while I'm free to attack your team with my TK from a safe distance. The fact that I can attack with TK (which for both my characters isn't much more powerful than what a normal human can move physically so nothing over the top and neither have ever shown internal attacks with it) means I can make the illusions your team would fight all that much more realistic as they would appear to have physical substance.

any energy attacks used can be absorbed by Occult's disk and used to shield my team from any harm with a force field as powerful as the force that attacks it. In Day of Judgment Occult Kept Spectre busy shielding the mystics while they came up with a counter because he was using Spectre's own attacks to power his shield. In reign in hell he shielded himself from a blast that destroyed the containment keeping Lobo entrapped (which was directly over his head (by absorbing the power of the blast to power it). His sheidls will always stand up against the energy attacks of others. Only physical attacks when there is insufficient energy to drain around him to power them could get through.

Bottom line

my team can remain at a safe distance completely hidden from your team and remove themselves instantly from any danger with both having dimensional travel. they can shield themselves from any energy or magic based (Poseidon's Blessing) attack perfectly. All the while attacking you with TK from that distance and using your own weapons and attacks against you by BFMing (Battle field moving as Battle field removal isn't allowed) them at you from a different angle.

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#10 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18024 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: Cool. Might take me a week to respond although there doesn't seem to be a lot to respond to.

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#11 Posted by beatboks1 (10120 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: Cool. Might take me a week to respond although there doesn't seem to be a lot to respond to.

just re-edited back in my battle and bottom line sections. I mustn't have copied again after adding them, and was suprised when you said there wasn't much to counter.

Sorry, should have checked sooner

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#12 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18024 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by beatboks1 (10120 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: It's sad but these days whenever you do a post that has more than a few pics loaded there is always a problem posting it. I usually copy a few times as I'm building and again when it's the entire post before I try and just in case I get that lost link message (which I inevitably do) I thought I had copied when I was done but Obviously had only copied last a few paragraphs before.

Sorry for the much up

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#14 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18024 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: @beatboks1: I will start making my post sometime today which will probably be posted tomorrow. But when this match finishes, regardless of who wins the votes, Beatboks should move forward (not that I think I have chance).

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#15 Posted by beatboks1 (10120 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: dont sell yourself short. Besides I'm at a big disadvantage here. I still dont have access to most of my scans and digital comics to offer much support.

If I was debating for Alan Scot, Dr Fate, Hellstrom or even Blue Devil I have massive image folders of those characters sorted under tags here at CV. In my Dr Occult folder I only have 6 and I dont have a Devil Slayer folder. I cant link my photo bucket folders (which is where most of the images for my KMC Dr Occult respect thread are from) because you can now only see images on your own account unless I pay for premium.

So while I can go to photobucket and download my Occult pics to upload again (god what a pain) ive already used every DS scan I can access.

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#16 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18024 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1:

Counters:

Any use of the trident that pierced Darksied against my team will be simple dimensionally transported into the back of my opponents. Similarly any attacks of water pressure that reach my team are BFR'd. This makes the strength and physical abilities of my adversaries meaningless as they can't be brought to bear against my team. You;ll notice the first two scans I have of DS have him casually BFR Hulk. Now removal from the battlefield isn't allowed under the rules but nothing says I can't move you to other points of the battlefield.

But since you flooded the ;lace with illusions, Aspen would most likely just flood the battlefield with water.

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And I doubt that you could BFR all that water (especially when the entire battlefield will be filled with water already).

All the while I'm free to attack your team with my TK from a safe distance. The fact that I can attack with TK (which for both my characters isn't much more powerful than what a normal human can move physically so nothing over the top and neither have ever shown internal attacks with it) means I can make the illusions your team would fight all that much more realistic as they would appear to have physical substance.

I mean that's cool but all your illusions will be taken in one swoop anyway sop it doesn't really matter.

any energy attacks used can be absorbed by Occult's disk and used to shield my team from any harm with a force field as powerful as the force that attacks it. In Day of Judgment Occult Kept Spectre busy shielding the mystics while they came up with a counter because he was using Spectre's own attacks to power his shield. In reign in hell he shielded himself from a blast that destroyed the containment keeping Lobo entrapped (which was directly over his head (by absorbing the power of the blast to power it). His sheidls will always stand up against the energy attacks of others. Only physical attacks when there is insufficient energy to drain around him to power them could get through.

So he can only make these shields if energy is used against him? Doesn't seem very useful against my team.

my team can remain at a safe distance completely hidden from your team and remove themselves instantly from any danger with both having dimensional travel. they can shield themselves from any energy or magic based (Poseidon's Blessing) attack perfectly. All the while attacking you with TK from that distance and using your own weapons and attacks against you by BFMing (Battle field moving as Battle field removal isn't allowed) them at you from a different angle.

You can't leave the battlefield so dimensional travel doesn't matter and while your shields are impressive, I don't see how it stops Aspen from accidental drowning you (since you will look ant sized to her and she would flood the place).

Conclusion:

Aspen could just drown you wile you haven't really shown any way of beating my team asides from redirecting our physical attacks.

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#17 Posted by beatboks1 (10120 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm:

Counters to counters

  1. Flooding the battlefield will not affect an illusion. it's by definition not real. this means that they are still there distracting and engaging you as much as ever no matter what. Fact is they will be completely unaffected by anything you've shown.
  2. your scan of Aspen flooding things had helicopters above the water. Clearly this shows that not everything is flooded. there will be somewhere to go to out of the way of the water. since you can't actually perceive me you wont know where I am to so you wont even know where to flood to get to me
  3. BFRing large volumes of water will not be a problem, at least not for Occult. He's managed to move crowds of people out of harms way
  4. Both my guys have a danger sense. they will know of danger in advance and have equalized speed and to travel instantly anywhere only have to think. avoiding anything you throw at them will be child's play

Some evidence

one of several ways Occult has to cast his illusions is magical hypnosis. he can make your own mind create the illusions Imagine what happens when he magically hypnotizes you to perceive your team mate as you enemy. Suddenly Aquaman and Aspen are fighting each other perceiving them as my team
one of several ways Occult has to cast his illusions is magical hypnosis. he can make your own mind create the illusions Imagine what happens when he magically hypnotizes you to perceive your team mate as you enemy. Suddenly Aquaman and Aspen are fighting each other perceiving them as my team

Let us remember exactly what's banned in relation to attacks my team can do

  • Internal attacks
  • Offensive Intangibility
  • Offensive/Empathy telepathy
  • Offensive Soul manipulation

I'm not using any of these as the way I'm using them in no way

  1. causing someone to feel resentful, upset, or annoyed."the allegations made are deeply offensive to us"
  2. actively aggressive; attacking

Which are the two definitions of "offensive"

that big dome in the background are the residents of a few city blocks being
that big dome in the background are the residents of a few city blocks being "evacuated" from a battlefield simultaneously by Occult. Hardly seems like a large amount being BFR'd is a problem and he did so to outside the battlefield. I'm not allowed to BFR you, BFRin your water however doesn't break any rules
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In the first scan he senses an evil that has entered his universe that's on the far side of the planet. In the second he senses a danger in the stratosphere above him. Both well before they're in range to do any harm.

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Clea (Dr Strange's mystic partner who also has mystic senses) called on DS to use his superior 6th sense to track the missng Gargoyle when Dr Strange was otherwise engaged.

So your not taking out my illusions unless you take out my team. something you wont be able to because of the different way our two teams fight. you can't find us, wont be able to touch us,

So he can only make these shields if energy is used against him? Doesn't seem very useful against my team.

No he can make shields anytime but he needs to have a source of energy. NORMALLY he can draw on any ambient energy in the area. remember his disk absorbs and redirects supernatural and natural energy. This means he can absorb the ambient magical energy in the area (same as say Constantine or others would use for a shield) or the energy of the sun, wind, water movement. This wouldn't make for a super strong shield

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No energy being used against him here and he can still throw up a shield to keep three or four demons away with their physical attacks.

You brought the magical power source of a skyfather to the battle. I'd say that gives Occult quite a bit of energy to draw upon to power his shields, blasts etc.

There is something else quite important to consider here. you only have basic knowledge. Mr Ingenuity defines that literally as awhat one might find on a wiki in their universe. Unfortunately what this means for you is thaqt what you know about Occult will be incredibly limited

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Occult isn't very well known at all. In fact when he was semi famous was back in the 1930's and he wasn't actually known for what he truly is

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So what would be in a wiki about Occult is only that he was a detective who dealt with the arcane. there would be nothing known about his abilities and how he can fight. You have no means of knowing that he is even capable of anything more than a normal human detective. No reason therefore to even know he can shrink himself and DS. No reason to know about his ability to create illusions (you would of DS of course and therefore respond with Arthur's TP to no avail). No reason to know he can create force fields or their limitations and therefore no reason to know to pile it on.

other possible attacks

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Blasts, the beast that Faust and Occult keep at bay BTW is the Spectre. His blasts weren't doing major damage obviously but they were keeping him busy (and obviously were getting power from Spectre's own energy)

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thousands of arcane weapons that can do major damage. and anti mater mace would destroy any matter it strikes for example.

Summary thus far

  1. the combination of 6th sense (x2) plus instantaneous travel (X2) plus intangability (x1) and speed equalized perk means you have absolutely no means of successfully attacking my team
  2. you have no means of detecting my team to even mount an attack on them even if you did.
  3. You literally you have no reason to even suspect what Occult is capable of to even consider the idea to look for something as small as an ant
  4. your team can and will be fighting each other due to illusions as soon as I decide they will.
  5. IF you could get rid of the illusions you would have believed you had defeated your enemy and then fall to what ever sneak attack I make when your defenses are down
  6. I have multiple means of attacking your team for which you have no defense.

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#18 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18024 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: Lol. You always make posts right after I shut off my PC on a Sunday. My post will be up in a week or so.

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#19 Posted by beatboks1 (10120 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18024 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: On it. I just need to ask Ingenuity if your hypnosis is allowed (I know you said it should be but I want to make sure).

Hey @mr_ingenuity is this allowed?

one of several ways Occult has to cast his illusions is magical hypnosis. he can make your own mind create the illusions Imagine what happens when he magically hypnotizes you to perceive your team mate as you enemy. Suddenly Aquaman and Aspen are fighting each other perceiving them as my team

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#21 Posted by beatboks1 (10120 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: why wouldnt it be?? The rules stated no offensive TP or mind attacks. Its neither an attack nor TP nor offensive. The very nature of the illusion is to divert you away from me. The only thing attacking about it is your attacking the illusion. Its not like i can mind control you or something

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#22 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18024 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: I would say why but I don't want to start a mini argument.

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#23 Posted by beatboks1 (10120 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity:

Just to point out my take on the rules.

These are the Banned things my team are capable of technically (though have never done in character).

Internal attacks (both have TK niether has ever used to attack internally)

Offensive Intangibility (Occult can phase but has only ever used it to phase thru inanimate objects)

Offensive/Empathy telepathy (both have TP - niether has ever even attempted or been shown able to mind control anyone with it DS has used it as a way of looking normal while in costume Occult almost never uses it in obvious manner excpt for 6th sense)

Teleportation cut/frag/statis( both can teleport DS has used it to BFR only)

Time Manipulation is a case by case bases ( Devil Slayers cloak allows him to travel any where or when he has used the time aspect to pull something from the past maybe 4 times. Occult can view the past but is actually stated not to be able to interact with it).

I've not abused any of this. Added to which the means I've used for Occults illusions is neither TP or empathy so not even covered by banned items/use of powers. Said illusions can do no actual harm to an adversary as they aren't real and as such i dont see how they would even be classified as offensive.

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#24 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14710 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: @major_hellstorm: I don't consider hypnosis telepathy. Although in this case the mind create the illusions. However I'm not sure I would consider illusions offensive telepathy. It isn't one of the abilities I would consider mind control.

So for my definitive answer yeah it is allowed long as it can be dispelled by a low level telepath (Gorgon), or ignored by a danger sense (Spiderman).

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#25 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18024 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18024 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Posted by beatboks1 (10120 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: how ever many posts u want. We can stop at the 2 if u like. Googling to find my images is getting painful

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#28 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18024 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: Guess we should do 3 then. I still have counters for your current post.

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#29 Posted by beatboks1 (10120 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: @major_hellstorm:

I'm gonna drop out. I dont have access to enough of my comics to state my case anyway. Really thought this would have been fixed by now

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#30 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18024 posts) - - Show Bio