I'm inclined to go with Ming-Hua, yeah; her FM amp and the solid source around, combined with how swift, unorthodox and fatal her Style would be for both Firebenders (who lack Lightning to really exploit it) makes me feel she'd be able to pick off one of them early on. (likely Zuko, who tends to start off with a relatively defensive, stationary and thus exploitable approach for Ming's overwhelming assaults, compared to Rangi's readiness to fall back on her Mobility & Tactics)
At that point, the remaining Firebender doesn't stand much of a chance--I can see some instances of the Duo surviving long enough to maybe adapt, but generally I see the fight being cut down to a 1v1 in Ming's favor not long in.
Realistically, Ming Hua should take it. But one lightning shot by Zuko would take her out. Moon-amped or not.
Again, if someone like Mako could manage to perceive and not get outright blitzed by base Ming. Then Zuko should at least manage to keep up decently land one shot, and it will be over.
Full moon makes it close, but imo the firebenders would still win this fight. Individually, Ming Hua is better than either of them, but the fight would still be a workout for her. Zuko’s shown an affinity for incorporating some water bending styles into his firebending (credit to Iroh for that), which helped him counter Katara’s water arms in the Catacombs. Meanwhile, Rangi’s use of firebending enhanced speed and agility could help counter Ming Hua’s waterbending acrobatics
If we had seen more of Ming Hua in combat (especially of her making use of a larger source of water), I might be more inclined to give her the win. But as it is, I’m not convinced she can take down two opponents of this caliber. However, I’m not fully sure how to account for the full moon’s boost to waterbending (and the nighttime weakening of firebending). If this fight were to happen in the show, I could buy that shifting things in Ming Hua’s favor
I don't think that's really fair to Rangi. From a very strict feats only perspective, yeah she is limited. However, the story makes it quite clear that she's a highly skilled firebender and an exceptional fighter. Imo, the fact that she immediately developed fire jets for enhanced mobility after witnessing dust stepping is strong confirmation of her high skill level. It's impressive enough to pick up a new bending technique from your own element with such ease, but adapting a technique from another bending style is even more impressive imo. It's even more impressive that she continued to evolve the technique by incorporating it into her fighting style in new ways, as seen during her duel with Koulin. Not many benders have demonstrated that kind of skill. We know she's fast, has respectable raw power, and has a high level of control and affinity for her element. While I wouldn't place her quite on Zuko's level, I don't see why she wouldn't be a worthy partner for him in a fight.
I don't think that's really fair to Rangi. From a very strict feats only perspective, yeah she is limited. However, the story makes it quite clear that she's a highly skilled firebender and an exceptional fighter. Imo, the fact that she immediately developed fire jets for enhanced mobility after witnessing dust stepping is strong confirmation of her high skill level. It's impressive enough to pick up a new bending technique from your own element with such ease, but adapting a technique from another bending style is even more impressive imo. It's even more impressive that she continued to evolve the technique by incorporating it into her fighting style in new ways, as seen during her duel with Koulin. Not many benders have demonstrated that kind of skill. We know she's fast, has respectable raw power, and has a high level of control and affinity for her element. While I wouldn't place her quite on Zuko's level, I don't see why she wouldn't be a worthy partner for him in a fight.
I don't think that's really fair to Rangi.
If this were base Ming Hua I’d agree
From a very strict feats only perspective, yeah she is limited. However, the story makes it quite clear that she's a highly skilled firebender and an exceptional fighter. Imo, the fact that she immediately developed fire jets for enhanced mobility after witnessing dust stepping is strong confirmation of her high skill level. It's impressive enough to pick up a new bending technique from your own element with such ease, but adapting a technique from another bending style is even more impressive imo.
Sure, we can both find it impressive, and it was considered a big deal in their era. It’s not in Ming Hua’s era though, and she’s seen Mako use jets already. So she isn’t going to be phased nor impressed by the usage of it. Especially when using jets will accomplish nothing if she can’t provide offensive support against Ming while using them. Which she doesn’t have the offensive feats to do that, even against base Ming, let alone FM amped Ming. Not to mention if we’re going to go the “who’s the better and more creative bender” route, then Ming Hua is definitely superior to Rangi or Zuko. Being a psychic bender, utilizing a one of a kind style we hadn’t seen before her, being able to use her water arms for virtually any human task ect.
It's even more impressive that she continued to evolve the technique by incorporating it into her fighting style in new ways, as seen during her duel with Koulin.
You mean when she amplified one leg to perform a backflip into a downward knee strike? Because such an attempt would be suicide against Ming Hua, there aren’t many characters who can engage her in melee, and amplified physicals aren’t going to cut it.
Not many benders have demonstrated that kind of skill. We know she's fast, has respectable raw power, and has a high level of control and affinity for her element.
Pretty much every named bender has demonstrated that kind of skill, and they all have respectable raw power and high levels of control. All benders have certain techniques they’re better at and almost all benders have made specific advancements to techniques they learned. Including benders Ming Hua’s fought, such as Mako’s own superior usage of jets compared to Rangi’s.
While I wouldn't place her quite on Zuko's level, I don't see why she wouldn't be a worthy partner for him in a fight.
Well that’s the issue, because I’d say Ming Hua is on the same level as Zuko in base, and should be a good deal above him with a full moon amp. And Rangi doesn’t have the feats to compete with Zuko, who never showed the power to compete with an amped Ming Hua. If this were her in base I’d agree with you.
I don't think that's really fair to Rangi. From a very strict feats only perspective, yeah she is limited. However, the story makes it quite clear that she's a highly skilled firebender and an exceptional fighter. Imo, the fact that she immediately developed fire jets for enhanced mobility after witnessing dust stepping is strong confirmation of her high skill level. It's impressive enough to pick up a new bending technique from your own element with such ease, but adapting a technique from another bending style is even more impressive imo. It's even more impressive that she continued to evolve the technique by incorporating it into her fighting style in new ways, as seen during her duel with Koulin. Not many benders have demonstrated that kind of skill. We know she's fast, has respectable raw power, and has a high level of control and affinity for her element. While I wouldn't place her quite on Zuko's level, I don't see why she wouldn't be a worthy partner for him in a fight.
I don't think that's really fair to Rangi.
If this were base Ming Hua I’d agree
Well that’s the issue, because I’d say Ming Hua is on the same level as Zuko in base, and should be a good deal above him with a full moon amp. And Rangi doesn’t have the feats to compete with Zuko, who never showed the power to compete with an amped Ming Hua. If this were her in base I’d agree with you.
Fair enough, the full moon factor is my main source of doubt for this as well. I'm not convinced it would be enough of an amp, but the level of boost it gives waterbenders is vague enough that I could see it being sufficient
From a very strict feats only perspective, yeah she is limited. However, the story makes it quite clear that she's a highly skilled firebender and an exceptional fighter. Imo, the fact that she immediately developed fire jets for enhanced mobility after witnessing dust stepping is strong confirmation of her high skill level. It's impressive enough to pick up a new bending technique from your own element with such ease, but adapting a technique from another bending style is even more impressive imo.
Sure, we can both find it impressive, and it was considered a big deal in their era. It’s not in Ming Hua’s era though, and she’s seen Mako use jets already. So she isn’t going to be phased nor impressed by the usage of it. Especially when using jets will accomplish nothing if she can’t provide offensive support against Ming while using them. Which she doesn’t have the offensive feats to do that, even against base Ming, let alone FM amped Ming. Not to mention if we’re going to go the “who’s the better and more creative bender” route, then Ming Hua is definitely superior to Rangi or Zuko. Being a psychic bender, utilizing a one of a kind style we hadn’t seen before her, being able to use her water arms for virtually any human task ect.
It's even more impressive that she continued to evolve the technique by incorporating it into her fighting style in new ways, as seen during her duel with Koulin.
You mean when she amplified one leg to perform a backflip into a downward knee strike? Because such an attempt would be suicide against Ming Hua, there aren’t many characters who can engage her in melee, and amplified physicals aren’t going to cut it.
Not many benders have demonstrated that kind of skill. We know she's fast, has respectable raw power, and has a high level of control and affinity for her element.
Pretty much every named bender has demonstrated that kind of skill, and they all have respectable raw power and high levels of control. All benders have certain techniques they’re better at and almost all benders have made specific advancements to techniques they learned. Including benders Ming Hua’s fought, such as Mako’s own superior usage of jets compared to Rangi’s.
It's not about the fire jets specifically, it's about the caliber of bending demonstrated by that kind of innovation. Sure, every capable bender has certain specialties, incorporating different techniques that they've learned over time and maybe making gradual modifications to improve their technique. However, the novels made a point of emphasizing that Rangi went a step further than that. Most benders don't invent entirely new techniques, let alone invent that technique for immediate use while in action. That kind of innovation requires a high level of overall skill, and imo it lets us place Rangi as a fairly high-tier firebender. Based on that, we can assume a baseline level of capability for her, even if that baseline is not fully fleshed out with specific feats.
Now, I'm not saying that makes her equal to Ming Hua. Ming Hua also showcases an incredibly unique and innovative style, which is a big reason why I think she would beat Zuko or Rangi 1v1. My point was just that it would be unfair to assume Rangi adds almost nothing when she is clearly portrayed as a highly capable bender and fighter, someone who would at the very least be a challenge for someone of Zuko's caliber
Fair enough, the full moon factor is my main source of doubt for this as well. I'm not convinced it would be enough of an amp, but the level of boost it gives waterbenders is vague enough that I could see it being sufficient
It's a large enough boost that it allows Katara to casually replicate her maximum daytime scale, so it's pretty large, and I question them being able to evaporate any of Ming's tendrils with the amp.
It's not about the fire jets specifically, it's about the caliber of bending demonstrated by that kind of innovation. Sure, every capable bender has certain specialties, incorporating different techniques that they've learned over time and maybe making gradual modifications to improve their technique. However, the novels made a point of emphasizing that Rangi went a step further than that. Most benders don't invent entirely new techniques, let alone invent that technique for immediate use while in action.
Sure, that's just a completely different conversation. It doesn't prove Rangi is a respectable combatant, or anywhere near Ming Hua. I'm simply discussing the fight, not how innovative they are as benders. And in terms of their arsenals of combat moves, Rangi doesn't use anything that would even phase Ming Hua, including jet stepping.
That kind of innovation requires a high level of overall skill, and imo it lets us place Rangi as a fairly high-tier firebender. Based on that, we can assume a baseline level of capability for her, even if that baseline is not fully fleshed out with specific feats.
Aside from the fact you'd need to describe what that "baseline level of capability" actually is, such as benders you believe that's enough for her to be comparable to. It doesn't, because we aren't comparing her to firebenders of her era where jet stepping and amplified physicals were a big deal. There isn't a thing Rangi can do in combat that Mako can't, so Ming Hua has nothing to be surprised, impressed, or conflicted by here. It's impressive in terms of her era sure, but it holds little to no weight when comparing her to characters who live in an era where jets are commonplace.
Now, I'm not saying that makes her equal to Ming Hua. Ming Hua also showcases an incredibly unique and innovative style, which is a big reason why I think she would beat Zuko or Rangi 1v1. My point was just that it would be unfair to assume Rangi adds almost nothing when she is clearly portrayed as a highly capable bender and fighter, someone who would at the very least be a challenge for someone of Zuko's caliber
Her portrayal is being portrayed as clearly inferior to Tagaka, and nothing about her portrayal nor standalone feats puts her above the likes of Kya, someone Ming was having fun slapping around 1 on 1, I don't see Zuko needing much struggle to beat her. And FM Ming > Zuko, so the most she can really do here is try to throw pot shots to aid Zuko fighting on the frontlines, which Ming Hua already has plenty of experience dealing with multiple opponents as seen with the Zaofu fight, so I think she'd handle it just fine. Especially if she just goes octopus form and wields 9+ tendrils and bumrushes them both at once, which neither showed the mobility to outflank nor the power to counter.
It's not about the fire jets specifically, it's about the caliber of bending demonstrated by that kind of innovation. Sure, every capable bender has certain specialties, incorporating different techniques that they've learned over time and maybe making gradual modifications to improve their technique. However, the novels made a point of emphasizing that Rangi went a step further than that. Most benders don't invent entirely new techniques, let alone invent that technique for immediate use while in action.
Sure, that's just a completely different conversation. It doesn't prove Rangi is a respectable combatant, or anywhere near Ming Hua. I'm simply discussing the fight, not how innovative they are as benders. And in terms of their arsenals of combat moves, Rangi doesn't use anything that would even phase Ming Hua, including jet stepping.
It's not a completely different conversation though. It speaks to Rangi's high level of talent and skill with her element. Just looking at fighters as a collection of different moves doesn't paint a full picture of everything that goes into a fight.
That kind of innovation requires a high level of overall skill, and imo it lets us place Rangi as a fairly high-tier firebender. Based on that, we can assume a baseline level of capability for her, even if that baseline is not fully fleshed out with specific feats.
Aside from the fact you'd need to describe what that "baseline level of capability" actually is, such as benders you believe that's enough for her to be comparable to. It doesn't, because we aren't comparing her to firebenders of her era where jet stepping and amplified physicals were a big deal. There isn't a thing Rangi can do in combat that Mako can't, so Ming Hua has nothing to be surprised, impressed, or conflicted by here. It's impressive in terms of her era sure, but it holds little to no weight when comparing her to characters who live in an era where jets are commonplace.
It's not as though bending (or fighting) changed so drastically between Kyoshi and Korra's era. Some techniques became more common (like fire jets) and some became less common (like the concussive blows Rangi was using), but it's still the same style. You keep focusing on the jets specifically, but again, it's not about the jets themselves. It's about the high level of skill demonstrated by Rangi through that kind of adaptability and innovation.
Now, I'm not saying that makes her equal to Ming Hua. Ming Hua also showcases an incredibly unique and innovative style, which is a big reason why I think she would beat Zuko or Rangi 1v1. My point was just that it would be unfair to assume Rangi adds almost nothing when she is clearly portrayed as a highly capable bender and fighter, someone who would at the very least be a challenge for someone of Zuko's caliber
Her portrayal is being portrayed as clearly inferior to Tagaka, and nothing about her portrayal nor standalone feats puts her above the likes of Kya, someone Ming was having fun slapping around 1 on 1, I don't see Zuko needing much struggle to beat her. And FM Ming > Zuko, so the most she can really do here is try to throw pot shots to aid Zuko fighting on the frontlines, which Ming Hua already has plenty of experience dealing with multiple opponents as seen with the Zaofu fight, so I think she'd handle it just fine. Especially if she just goes octopus form and wields 9+ tendrils and bumrushes them both at once, which neither showed the mobility to outflank nor the power to counter.
Tagaka's only showing is that one battle, how is a comparison with Tagaka good or bad for Rangi? It's not like there was any reason to think Tagaka was a poor bender (except that she pretended to be one). Besides, Rangi and Hei Ran were both notably injured and fighting Tagaka in the ideal environment for waterbenders, and they were still matching her fine.
As for Kya, Kya was never portrayed as a warrior of Rangi's caliber, and her talent for bending was never emphasized in the same way Rangi's was.
All I'm trying to argue is this: Rangi was clearly portrayed as an elite warrior and bender, the kind of fighter who would absolutely be relevant in this sort of fight. If the show somehow had Zuko and Rangi take on Ming Hua, I don't believe she would be portrayed as the non-factor you're making her out to be.
It's not a completely different conversation though. It speaks to Rangi's high level of talent and skill with her element. Just looking at fighters as a collection of different moves doesn't paint a full picture of everything that goes into a fight.
I get it, I'm just saying I don't see it being particularly relevant here if that talent and skill never allowed her to showcase a feat that makes her much of a threat to a FM amped Ming Hua, and like I said before, if we're willing to assume characters are better than their feats show based on pure bending skill (which is typically a completely subjective argument by the way), Ming Hua is one of the best candidates in the entire verse for this.
It's not as though bending (or fighting) changed so drastically between Kyoshi and Korra's era. Some techniques became more common (like fire jets) and some became less common (like the concussive blows Rangi was using), but it's still the same style. You keep focusing on the jets specifically, but again, it's not about the jets themselves. It's about the high level of skill demonstrated by Rangi through that kind of adaptability and innovation.
I'm focusing on the jets specifically because it's the only thing she did that was considered a big deal in her era, and was the only thing you brought up as an example of her innovation. Korra's era is much more advanced than Kyoshi's, rare techniques in Kyoshi's era became commonplace in Korra's era, some of that applies to Aang's as well, not everything of course, but jets just happen to be one of the techniques that did. I get what you're trying to say, but I just personally don't see how her innovative skills will help her here, as it boils down to me either believing she won't be taken aback by Ming Hua's unique style to begin with (which I think is very unlikely), or me attempting to "paint a picture" of everything she could do to help her, but never actually did.
Tagaka's only showing is that one battle, how is a comparison with Tagaka good or bad for Rangi? It's not like there was any reason to think Tagaka was a poor bender (except that she pretended to be one). Besides, Rangi and Hei Ran were both notably injured and fighting Tagaka in the ideal environment for waterbenders, and they were still matching her fine.
Well that was the point, I don't find her portrayal to be impressive because her best feats still show her being clearly inferior to another master. That and I don't think Tagaka is superior to Ming Hua, but I didn't point that out in my last post I guess. And Tagaka having an environmental advantage is mitigated by Rangi having help, from a superior bender at that.
As for Kya, Kya was never portrayed as a warrior of Rangi's caliber, and her talent for bending was never emphasized in the same way Rangi's was.
Perhaps, I don't think Rangi has better feats though.
All I'm trying to argue is this: Rangi was clearly portrayed as an elite warrior and bender, the kind of fighter who would absolutely be relevant in this sort of fight. If the show somehow had Zuko and Rangi take on Ming Hua, I don't believe she would be portrayed as the non-factor you're making her out to be.
Fair enough, at this point I'm more arguing for Ming winning than Rangi being fodder, so if that's what you had an issue with, I think I've exhausted my POV enough, but I just don't think she has the feats to be enough help to Zuko to secure a win here. And being an "elite warrior and bender" is much to vague for me to draw a conclusion. I myself wouldn't consider Zuko or Ming Hua for that matter an elite warrior/bender, atleast compared to the top tiers of any of their eras. And I think Zuko, and especially a FM amped Ming Hua, would deal with Rangi pretty quickly.
When I say Zuko doesn't get enough credit, one of the things I'm indirectly pointing is how Zuko gets compared and put in the same tier as Rangi. Rangi doesn't have the feats to compete or to be even compared to Zuko. I'd argue the distance between Zuko and Rangi is almost as big as that of Azula and Zuko. Rangi's white flame requires the simillar amount of charge time for Iroh's lightning, and Zuko's fire redirection/funnel shows that he can also bend multi colored flames. Zuko has performed everything Rangi has done and even better, his standard shots can obliterate earth, and even 5 layers of chains. Zuko has jet propulsion, and he can perform it with just his feet, so Rangi is not even more mobile.
When I say Zuko doesn't get enough credit, one of the things I'm indirectly pointing is how Zuko gets compared and put in the same tier as Rangi. Rangi doesn't have the feats to compete or to be even compared to Zuko. I'd argue the distance between Zuko and Rangi is almost as big as that of Azula and Zuko. Rangi's white flame requires the simillar amount of charge time for Iroh's lightning, and Zuko's fire redirection/funnel shows that he can also bend multi colored flames. Zuko has performed everything Rangi has done and even better, his standard shots can obliterate earth, and even 5 layers of chains. Zuko has jet propulsion, and he can perform it with just his feet, so Rangi is not even more mobile.
I would actually agree that the gap between Zuko and Rangi is similar to the gap between Azula and Zuko. I just don't think the gap between Zuko and Azula is too significant. I think Zuko would be perfectly capable of carrying his weight in a Zuko/Azula team up, and I think the same about Rangi in a Zuko/Rangi team up.
All I'm trying to argue is this: Rangi was clearly portrayed as an elite warrior and bender, the kind of fighter who would absolutely be relevant in this sort of fight. If the show somehow had Zuko and Rangi take on Ming Hua, I don't believe she would be portrayed as the non-factor you're making her out to be.
Fair enough, at this point I'm more arguing for Ming winning than Rangi being fodder, so if that's what you had an issue with, I think I've exhausted my POV enough
That was the crux of my argument here, yeah. When we're dealing with characters within the same universe (especially when one has notably more limited appearances than another), I think it's perfectly fine and maybe even necessary to consider what that character could do based on how they're depicted instead of being strictly focused on showings only. Otherwise, you get to conclusions like Mako beating Ozai based on Mako having significantly more showings without Sozin's Comet and more familiarity with lightning bending (that's an extreme example that I wouldn't expect anyone to really agree with, but it shows that a strict "feats alone" logic doesn't always work for these types of things).
Tagaka's only showing is that one battle, how is a comparison with Tagaka good or bad for Rangi? It's not like there was any reason to think Tagaka was a poor bender (except that she pretended to be one). Besides, Rangi and Hei Ran were both notably injured and fighting Tagaka in the ideal environment for waterbenders, and they were still matching her fine.
Well that was the point, I don't find her portrayal to be impressive because her best feats still show her being clearly inferior to another master. That and I don't think Tagaka is superior to Ming Hua, but I didn't point that out in my last post I guess. And Tagaka having an environmental advantage is mitigated by Rangi having help, from a superior bender at that.
The book made it clear that neither Rangi nor Hei Ran were at full capacity when fighting Tagaka, with Hei Ran only having one useable arm and Rangi having some sort of head injury that covered her face in blood. Despite that and the environmental advantage, they were still a perfectly fine match for Tagaka, keeping her on the defensive so well that at some point one of them was able to go unfreeze Yun (who helped secure their win over Tagaka). Unfreezing Yun would've taken the full focus from one of them, meaning that the other would have had to be occupying Tagaka effectively solo. While I don't think a fully healthy Rangi would've been able to beat Tagaka solo in a fully aquatic environment, I fail to see how this all paints her in a bad light. She doesn't have to be a match for Ming Hua solo to be able to help Zuko in a fight against her. Based on her feats and overall portrayal, I can't see any reason for her to not be at least comparable to Mako. Personally, I'd argue for her being better, but even someone at Mako's tier would offer something above fodder level in this fight. It's not like she'd just be some random Fire Nation soldier or anything like that
Especially when using jets will accomplish nothing if she can’t provide offensive support against Ming while using them.
I wanted to go back and reply to these points too: while most non-amped fire jet users bend the jets from their hands, Rangi bends them primarily from her feet, leaving her hands free for offense (as shown in the final fight with Yun, where she was hovering above the ground and raining fire down on him). The only other non-amped firebender we've seen able to fly like that with firejets from the feet was Zuko himself in the North and South comic. Even then, he wasn't shown using firebending offense while jetting. I don't actually remember any instance of a non-amped firebender being able to utilize meaningful offense while also actively using fire jets, though I could be forgetting something.
Point being, Rangi's use of fire jets does have distinctions from what's been shown by Mako and Korra. Considering pseudo-flight with fire jets from the feet tends to only be possible with an amp like Sozin's Comet or the Avatar State, I think it'd be reasonable to argue that it's more advanced than using fire jets from the hands. That's not to say that Rangi's fire jets specifically are a key factor in this fight (though they will help her against Ming Hua's speed), but more to argue that Rangi's bending isn't outdated compared to someone like Mako
Ming-Hua. She's just generally too fast for them, she's a lot more powerful, and they cannot get close to her on any capacity.
Out of curiosity, what makes her more powerful than both Zuko and Rangi combined? While Ming Hua was definitely strong, raw power never seemed to be her thing the way it was for someone like Korra or Katara. Under neutral conditions, I'd argue that Zuko fairly comparable in terms of raw power (based on him matching Katara's water arms, I can see him matching Ming Hua's strength-wise). The boost from the full moon could shift things enough that Zuko couldn't go blow for blow with Ming Hua anymore, but I'm not sure she'd have a raw power advantage over both Zuko and Rangi combined
Ming-Hua. She's just generally too fast for them, she's a lot more powerful, and they cannot get close to her on any capacity.
Out of curiosity, what makes her more powerful than both Zuko and Rangi combined? While Ming Hua was definitely strong, raw power never seemed to be her thing the way it was for someone like Korra or Katara. Under neutral conditions, I'd argue that Zuko fairly comparable in terms of raw power (based on him matching Katara's water arms, I can see him matching Ming Hua's strength-wise). The boost from the full moon could shift things enough that Zuko couldn't go blow for blow with Ming Hua anymore, but I'm not sure she'd have a raw power advantage over both Zuko and Rangi combined
Raw power is her thing like it is for any master; if you mean she doesn't prefer to attack using large quantities of water like a conventional waterbender might, then true. She still uses her tendrils for pressurised offence, like when she overpowered Kya, and extremely powerful icebending, cutting stone in half with her blades and drilling through permafrost, which Zuko definitely could not match head-on.
Also, concerning "power" -in a more general sense of combined strength and scale of bending- then it's doubtful that Zuko and Rangi could exactly combine their power the way e.g. airbenders might in a fight, and, even if they did, they wouldn't be a match for her in general, much less under a full moon. If she rose on a large vortex and bombarded them on her octopus form from above, all they could do is run. Zuko and Katara's elemental whips, like the ones they clashed with in Ba Sing Se, are extremely constrained relative to Ming-Hua's technique, so I doubt that'd be an adequate respose to her at any point.
I would actually agree that the gap between Zuko and Rangi is similar to the gap between Azula and Zuko. I just don't think the gap between Zuko and Azula is too significant. I think Zuko would be perfectly capable of carrying his weight in a Zuko/Azula team up, and I think the same about Rangi in a Zuko/Rangi team up.
It's pretty significant, Azula has feats of scale and potency that Zuko has no answer to, and we actually know that because he was forced to run away and duck cover from her bomb at the air temple, whereas he was able to run through the effects of the traditional bombs being used.
That was the crux of my argument here, yeah. When we're dealing with characters within the same universe (especially when one has notably more limited appearances than another), I think it's perfectly fine and maybe even necessary to consider what that character could do based on how they're depicted instead of being strictly focused on showings only.
You can do that for basically anyone, and how they're "depicted" and "impressive they are" is a subjective argument. It doesn't actually mean much if anything at all unless you have some statements or WoG or something to back up your stance. That and you didn't actually suggest a level Rangi is at (until later in this post), or suggest anything she could theoretically use in her arsenal to pose a threat to Ming Hua. At the end of the day feats trump pretty much anything else, and Rangi's actual feats don't demonstrate a bender on the level of Ming Hua.
It's not really much of an argument and gets us nowhere, because you can say "I think Rangi can do this", and I can just say she can't. Neither of us are wrong, because she doesn't have the feats to justify the take.
Otherwise, you get to conclusions like Mako beating Ozai based on Mako having significantly more showings without Sozin's Comet and more familiarity with lightning bending (that's an extreme example that I wouldn't expect anyone to really agree with, but it shows that a strict "feats alone" logic doesn't always work for these types of things).
It's not just extreme, it's a poor example. Ozai is blatantly confirmed superior to Azula, and the best firebender of his era, which is the best era of firebending that we know. Azula in terms of raw feats is the best firebender we know, and the show clearly made an effort to show his superiority over Azula with his ability to spam lightning, and his much superior mobility under the comet. And Mako having more familiarity with lightningbending than Ozai is entirely possible, since he's a more versatile user of the technique.
The book made it clear that neither Rangi nor Hei Ran were at full capacity when fighting Tagaka,
I know, which is why I argued them having help mitigates that disadvantage, atleast a bit, and moreso for Rangi than Hei-Ran, since Hei-Ran is superior to Rangi.
with Hei Ran only having one useable arm and Rangi having some sort of head injury that covered her face in blood. Despite that and the environmental advantage, they were still a perfectly fine match for Tagaka, keeping her on the defensive so well that at some point one of them was able to go unfreeze Yun (who helped secure their win over Tagaka). Unfreezing Yun would've taken the full focus from one of them, meaning that the other would have had to be occupying Tagaka effectively solo.
They were able to hold their own against a bender I don't view above Ming Hua, and considering Ming Hua is nothing like Tagaka in terms of fighting style, was able to "hold her own" while being occupied by a bending team in Zaofu, and already showed the ability to incapacitate two opponents at once, I still don't see how Rangi's portrayal does her any justice here.
While I don't think a fully healthy Rangi would've been able to beat Tagaka solo in a fully aquatic environment, I fail to see how this all paints her in a bad light. She doesn't have to be a match for Ming Hua solo to be able to help Zuko in a fight against her.
Vs base Ming Hua she doesn't, vs full moon Ming Hua she'd atleast need to be close to Zuko's level, which I don't think she is.
Based on her feats and overall portrayal, I can't see any reason for her to not be at least comparable to Mako. Personally, I'd argue for her being better, but even someone at Mako's tier would offer something above fodder level in this fight. It's not like she'd just be some random Fire Nation soldier or anything like that
Well I can, because her feats and overall portrayal aren't anywhere near his. Rangi isn't superior in terms of scale, potency, versatility, track record, battle IQ, subbending, physicals, experience, or mobility. Neither is Zuko for that matter, as he himself lacks any real standalone feats of scale or potency especially. Rangi also has no answer for lightning and her only claim to fame is her mobility, which still isn't any better than Mako's. And Ming Hua in base could match Mako's power consistently, and his only answer to her octopus form was lightning, which neither of the team have here. So if Ming Hua actually decides to just bombard them with tendrils at once there isn't anything they can really do about it. Which is why I think she wins this.
I wanted to go back and reply to these points too: while most non-amped fire jet users bend the jets from their hands, Rangi bends them primarily from her feet, leaving her hands free for offense (as shown in the final fight with Yun, where she was hovering above the ground and raining fire down on him). The only other non-amped firebender we've seen able to fly like that with firejets from the feet was Zuko himself in the North and South comic. Even then, he wasn't shown using firebending offense while jetting. I don't actually remember any instance of a non-amped firebender being able to utilize meaningful offense while also actively using fire jets, though I could be forgetting something.
I already gave you an example, Mako. He used jets against Ming and against Ghazan and kept on the offensive just fine. So the point still stands, Rangi's usage of jets aren't going to phase Ming Hua, and if she tries to get close and use an amplified melee move she's basically conceding the fight.
Point being, Rangi's use of fire jets does have distinctions from what's been shown by Mako and Korra. Considering pseudo-flight with fire jets from the feet tends to only be possible with an amp like Sozin's Comet or the Avatar State, I think it'd be reasonable to argue that it's more advanced than using fire jets from the hands. That's not to say that Rangi's fire jets specifically are a key factor in this fight (though they will help her against Ming Hua's speed), but more to argue that Rangi's bending isn't outdated compared to someone like Mako
What does Korra have to do with anything? She never showed the ability to use jets effectively in combat without an AS boost. And what about Ming Hua's speed? You seem to be confusing speed with mobility. Ming Hua has great mobility, as in she can make large leaps, utilize spouts, and swing around pillars and what not, but she isn't blinding fast in combat or anything like that. Mako kept up with her just fine in every encounter, so did Kya. Having better mobility in general isn't much of an advantage if you don't also have superior combat speed.
My argument isn't about it being outdated, it's just that her bending repertoire displays nothing Mako can't do himself, and the only thing Mako did against Ming Hua that showed any effectiveness were basic fireblasts and lightning. The latter Rangi can't do, and the former Rangi never showed the power to accomplish the same feat.
@arcus1: I don't think Rangi has surpassed Tagaka, and it was most likely Hei Ran who stalled. Also, Tagaka got suckerpuched before the 2 vs 1 happened, and the two of them freeing Yun could suggest that they weren't really winning the fight, and needed Yun to tip the scales. I don't think that fight is supposed to be a great feat for Rangi.
@kataraaaa: What makes you think Ming Hua is better than Tagaka? The only advantage now that I think about it more clearly, Ming Hua has over her in an actual fight is mobillity. Stuff like the drill move is not really applicable as Tagaka can just shoot her down like she did to a much more hyped up/powerful bender.
Ming-Hua. She's just generally too fast for them, she's a lot more powerful, and they cannot get close to her on any capacity.
Out of curiosity, what makes her more powerful than both Zuko and Rangi combined? While Ming Hua was definitely strong, raw power never seemed to be her thing the way it was for someone like Korra or Katara. Under neutral conditions, I'd argue that Zuko fairly comparable in terms of raw power (based on him matching Katara's water arms, I can see him matching Ming Hua's strength-wise). The boost from the full moon could shift things enough that Zuko couldn't go blow for blow with Ming Hua anymore, but I'm not sure she'd have a raw power advantage over both Zuko and Rangi combined
Raw power is her thing like it is for any master; if you mean she doesn't prefer to attack using large quantities of water like a conventional waterbender might, then true. She still uses her tendrils for pressurised offence, like when she overpowered Kya, and extremely powerful icebending, cutting stone in half with her blades and drilling through permafrost, which Zuko definitely could not match head-on.
Also, concerning "power" -in a more general sense of combined strength and scale of bending- then it's doubtful that Zuko and Rangi could exactly combine their power the way e.g. airbenders might in a fight, and, even if they did, they wouldn't be a match for her in general, much less under a full moon. If she rose on a large vortex and bombarded them on her octopus form from above, all they could do is run. Zuko and Katara's elemental whips, like the ones they clashed with in Ba Sing Se, are extremely constrained relative to Ming-Hua's technique, so I doubt that'd be an adequate respose to her at any point.
Ming Hua was stronger than Kya, but it wasn't by such a massive amount that I'd say it makes her also stronger than Zuko. Granted, that's all very speculative considering we're going across elements with characters who've never interacted, but that's beside the point. If Zuko can shield himself from a point blank combustion blast, I think he could handle a pressurized blast from Ming. Cutting stone isn't anything Zuko couldn't match, he was slicing through large crystals with his fire whips and casually cutting through the stone statues Toph created in the Melon Lord scene. Azula could slice through small buildings with her fire attacks, and post-dragons Zuko could match her raw power. As for the drill technique she used at P'li's prison, I don't think we can say that she wasn't using her own waterbending to help break through the ice. If it was a normal waterbender who used a similar drill, then maybe we could infer that their focus was on bending the drill itself and not on bending any surrounding ice. But Ming Hua doesn't bend like normal waterbenders, she bends her water arms to then bend additional water. It's not necessarily an either/or situation like it would tend to be for other waterbenders. Words are hard, so I'm not sure if that all made sense. Basically, I don't see why we should assume that she was exclusively bending her water arms in that instance and not using any of her bending power on the ice itself. It would seem illogical and inefficient to not use any bending on the ice itself (like an earthbender using a stone drill to tunnel as opposed to earthbending the tunnel itself)
On a slightly different note, do you have any particular method/logic to help account for the full moon's impact on waterbending and firebending power? Cause that's my main hangup in this fight. I could definitely see the full moon strengthening Ming Hua and weakening Zuko/Rangi enough for me to give Ming Hua the win, but I'm not really sure how to evaluate that with any consistency.
Based on her feats and overall portrayal, I can't see any reason for her to not be at least comparable to Mako. Personally, I'd argue for her being better, but even someone at Mako's tier would offer something above fodder level in this fight. It's not like she'd just be some random Fire Nation soldier or anything like that
Well I can, because her feats and overall portrayal aren't anywhere near his. Rangi isn't superior in terms of scale, potency, versatility, track record, battle IQ, subbending, physicals, experience, or mobility. Neither is Zuko for that matter, as he himself lacks any real standalone feats of scale or potency especially. Rangi also has no answer for lightning and her only claim to fame is her mobility, which still isn't any better than Mako's. And Ming Hua in base could match Mako's power consistently, and his only answer to her octopus form was lightning, which neither of the team have here. So if Ming Hua actually decides to just bombard them with tendrils at once there isn't anything they can really do about it. Which is why I think she wins this.
Hold up, you think Mako>Zuko? If you're looking at scale/potency, Zuko's shown raw power (and more consistency with that power) than Mako has.
We're going in circles with a lot of things here so I'm just going to leave a number of the points alone, but the Zuko thing surprised me
I already gave you an example, Mako. He used jets against Ming and against Ghazan and kept on the offensive just fine. So the point still stands, Rangi's usage of jets aren't going to phase Ming Hua, and if she tries to get close and use an amplified melee move she's basically conceding the fight.
No, Mako wasn't doing both simultaneously. He would boost himself into the air and then switch from bending the jets to bending an attack. Rangi, however, was continuously hovering in the air while simultaneously launching attacks. The only other firebender I can think of with a similar showing would be Jeong Jeong when he was hovering over Omashu while summoning the walls of fire.
My argument isn't about it being outdated, it's just that her bending repertoire displays nothing Mako can't do himself, and the only thing Mako did against Ming Hua that showed any effectiveness were basic fireblasts and lightning. The latter Rangi can't do, and the former Rangi never showed the power to accomplish the same feat.
Rangi had sufficient power to blast groups of people down with a single blast, could produce concussive force felt by bystanders without even producing flame itself, and with a bit of charging produced a blast far stronger than anything Mako ever did. Mako's not that noteworthy in terms of raw power, and I see no reason why Rangi wouldn't be at least comparable.
She doesn't have to have anything that would greatly surprise Ming Hua. You said it yourself: basic fireblasts can be effective against Ming Hua. All I'm arguing is that Rangi can provide effective offense support alongside Zuko in this fight, particularly since Rangi's own enhanced mobility can help her keep up with Ming Hua in that regard.
While Ming Hua was definitely strong, raw power never seemed to be her thing the way it was for someone like Korra or Katara. Under neutral conditions, I'd argue that Zuko fairly comparable in terms of raw power (based on him matching Katara's water arms, I can see him matching Ming Hua's strength-wise). The boost from the full moon could shift things enough that Zuko couldn't go blow for blow with Ming Hua anymore, but I'm not sure she'd have a raw power advantage over both Zuko and Rangi combined
I agree with this.
OT: I don't know if it's Ming-Hua being overrated or Zuko and Rangi being underrated but I don't see how she wins this at all imo.
The best opponent Ming-Hua overpowered is Kya, there really is nothing to suggest that she's more powerful than either Zuko or even Rangi from that because she just doesn't have any scaling past that, both in scale (which she never really did) and more importantly potency which is the major determinant of power we have for her, Higher end shots from Zuko would be able to evaporate her arms, It being her defense too doesn't help at all, her arms are not tanking this:
She's also not really faster than Zuko combat-wise like most people are saying, her best feat of speed in combat once again is pressing Kya and Mako in that area, both of whom are inferior to Zuko in speed and sets no reason for the assumption that she would be able to dominate Zuko in that manner, using comparison to the average soldier too, she's able to take on 3-4 max which is around Zuko's range. It's going to be at most equal in this area between her and Zuko alone, adding that she has to deal with rangi too alongside Zuko definitely solidifies her having no advantage here.
The only thing that would really set ming apart in this fight is her mobility enhancement advantage with slide/spout which is more effective than that of the firebenders by feats and the implied power advantage she'll have with the full moon ( which isn't even a given as--like I said-- she doesn't even have anything to suggest she's above either of the firebenders in the first place), But these advantages are not enough to suggest any of the firebenders cannot at least keep her focused in a 1v1 regardless of if they would win or lose, Zuko and Rangi being highly physically capable fighters with good agility and reaction, also having their own mobility to help and both being smarter than Ming hua, I think either of them keeping her focused in that manner, like mako did for example, while the other exploits that by finding an opening that could straight up put her down or at least disorient her enough to which both of them can capitalize on (Mako/Bolin style against Ghazan) and put her down is a more likely outcome than Ming-Hua putting down two benders on her tier (imo) or to anyone else, at worst, a tier close to that with just dinky advantages.
@arcus1: I feel like assuming she did more than drill through the ground is unnecessary. Obviously I cannot prove a negative, but there's no indication she did more than simply power through. If she were to bend an actual tunnel she would've just done that -we've seen other waterbenders tunnel on polar locations, such as a waterbender in Hama's memories from the Southern Tribe, or Korra in Welcome to Republic City when she snuck out her compound, so it's a familiar technique, and the waterbending equivalent of earthbending tunneling. Ming-Hua just formed a drill as a chained aerial attack that granted her additional momentum. It's also worth noting that the prison was in a tundra, so not a pure ice terrain, but one with permafrost (you can also see an elevated piece of it right near where she drilled), which would make it more difficult to bend, therefore making a powerful enough drill more quick and efficient -although permafrost is bendable to waterbenders, as Unalaq could manipulate it, I'd imagine it's still suboptimal.
I don't know if I have a way of evaluating it too precisely -and I'm wondering if the writers do either- but I'd say it's a very noticeable amplification the way it's treated in the series. It was common knowledge that it granted some waterbenders enough power to allow them to bloodbend, and it was a big part of the Siege of the North. Iroh said the waterbenders would be undefeatable under its effect.
That said, I do wonder about the inner mechanics of the full moon and its effects on waterbending; first, I'd question it actually weakening firebenders. Firebenders might be slightly weaker at night than in the day due to the temperature drop/hiding of the sun, but the phase of the moon itself does not matter. The amplification seems to be entirely spiritual/supernatural, without a physical/natural aspect to it, unlike all other celestial phenomenons/bodies that affect water and firebenders, that have at least a bit of a physical side to them. For instance, Sozin's Comet clearly amplifies firebenders' chi greatly, but it is also listed as a great heat source in The Lost Scrolls, implying it affects both aspects of benders/bending, therefore I'd assume it also negatively affects waterbenders to a degree.
If we go with that, then I'm not sure we can put an exact number on a purely spiritual enhancement -it would in part depend on the individual waterbender, their spirituality, and the connection they have with the element. I'm thinking of the way Hama's veins were popping under the full moon. I don't think every random waterbender's body would respond to it that same way (even one with the same physique as her). So, clearly it affects all waterbenders, but I wouldn't be surprised if it does to different degrees, at least slightly different ones. This theory is also supported by the fact that Yue could choose to come down and amplify Aang's waterbending when he needed to be saved -she wasn't affecting waterbenders globally. So a waterbender more connected to the element, and by extent the moon, might be able to harness this energy... better, I suppose. At the end of the day, there's too many stuff on Avatar cosmology we unfortunately don't know yet, so this is all just theories working on what we have. I'd rather go with this than just say waterbenders are 35% stronger under a full moon or something though, lol.
So, if I were to apply that theory to this battle, then I'd say Ming-Hua would be noticeably enhanced. At the end of the day, maybe a decent method would be to think about the fact that Hama under the full moon was supposed to be stronger than Katara without it -given the bloodbending 'rule' that was only broken by Yakone's bloodline. And Katara under the full moon was capable of decidedly overpowering Hama. So the amplification must be noteworthy, taking a bender from being less powerful than their opponent to noticeably -although not exceedingly- more powerful than them. This comparison is a pretty safe way of thinking about it because even under the theory I described above, Katara and Hama would still be enhanced to a similar extent.
Hold up, you think Mako>Zuko? If you're looking at scale/potency, Zuko's shown raw power
In terms of scale and potency? Ya I do. The best feats Zuko has are explosive blasts, and when he melted Katara's ice encasing him. Mako can create explosive blasts on similar if not larger scale, and his plume of fire on Unalaq's camp is superior to Zuko melting Katara's ice. Not to mention he can bend explosions on a larger scale than what Zuko can create.
(and more consistency with that power) than Mako has.
I don't know what you're talking about, if anything it's the opposite. Mako consistently creates adult sized fireblasts (and spams them), whereas Zuko doesn't opt for such scale as often.
We're going in circles with a lot of things here so I'm just going to leave a number of the points alone, but the Zuko thing surprised me
It remains true though, Zuko doesn't have more power, versatility, and his mobility is worse. He's shown more techniques - as in his firebending defense is better, but his firebending defensive options don't allow him to do anything beyond blocking an attack, which means he doesn't have an opening to counterattack Ming. And the techniques he offers that Mako doesn't (that we've seen anyway), don't have much use vs Ming Hua. Like those fire whips he threw at Katara. And when you think about it, the only answer Mako had to Ming's octopus form was lightning, which Zuko doesn't have. So I don't see how Zuko would fare better than Mako did, especially against amped Ming.
No, Mako wasn't doing both simultaneously. He would boost himself into the air and then switch from bending the jets to bending an attack. Rangi, however, was continuously hovering in the air while simultaneously launching attacks. The only other firebender I can think of with a similar showing would be Jeong Jeong when he was hovering over Omashu while summoning the walls of fire.
Is that what you meant? Because I thought you just meant being able to provide an effective offense while using jets in active combat. Not necessarily shooting fireblasts while still riding jets. Although, I still don't see how that changes this fight. It doesn't matter if the fireblasts are fired by someone riding on jets or standing still, it just matters whether or not those fireblasts are potent enough to accomplish something, and Rangi doesn't have the power to compete with amped Ming Hua. So I guess you've convinced me Rangi's use of jets aren't "outdated" in comparison to Mako's, the point about jet usage not being all that relevan in this fight still stands.
Rangi had sufficient power to blast groups of people down with a single blast, could produce concussive force felt by bystanders without even producing flame itself, and with a bit of charging produced a blast far stronger than anything Mako ever did.
Mako can and has downed groups of people with single blasts, and the last bit is untrue. Mako's charged attacks are much more powerful than Rangi's. Seeing how his lightning is powerful enough to blow the colossus spirit core (or whatever it was) up, which was enough to create a huge explosion that blew up the entire colossus.
Mako's not that noteworthy in terms of raw power, and I see no reason why Rangi wouldn't be at least comparable.
He doesn't have to be "noteworthy" in power to be superior to Rangi or for the point to still stand.
She doesn't have to have anything that would greatly surprise Ming Hua. You said it yourself: basic fireblasts can be effective against Ming Hua.
Sure, as long as they're potent enough to accomplish anything. Which considering more powerful benders struggled to do so vs base Ming Hua, I have my doubts on Rangi being able to do anything against an amped Ming Hua.
All I'm arguing is that Rangi can provide effective offense support alongside Zuko in this fight, particularly since Rangi's own enhanced mobility can help her keep up with Ming Hua in that regard.
Two things. One mobility doesn't really mean much if you don't have superior combat speed to boot, especially here. Zuko was able to keep up with Azula on jets despite him just standing in one spot the entire fight. So neither should have trouble with Ming Hua's mobility unless she specifically goes octopus form and wields 9+ tendrils and a spout like she did before her death. Which both could evade for a bit maybe, but it's too much area of effect for either to completely outflank.
Two Rangi's offensive support is limited not just because she's a ways below an amped Ming, but because of the nature of who she's fighting. Ming Hua doesn't have to occupy herself to Rangi to block her attacks, she doesn't have to raise water shields to protect herself from burning. Her tendrils are her shields, all she has to do is raise them to block her attack, and considering her overwhelming advantage in raw power here, those tendrils would nullify any fireblast Rangi (or Zuko) attempts to throw at her. So unless Rangi specifically goes for a larger attack that Ming would struggle to defend against (which I don't think she has one), I don't see her offense providing much use. Especially considering Ming again, can just bumrush them with nearly a dozen tendrils and force both of them on the defensive at the same time. And neither can really do anything about it.
@kataraaaa: What makes you think Ming Hua is better than Tagaka? The only advantage now that I think about it more clearly, Ming Hua has over her in an actual fight is mobillity. Stuff like the drill move is not really applicable as Tagaka can just shoot her down like she did to a much more hyped up/powerful bender.
We've already seen Ming Hua handle large scale "icebergs" against the twins and traverse it just fine. I don't think Tagaka has shown enough to beat MH, especially in an environment with limited water where Ming would excel.
there really is nothing to suggest that she's more powerful than either Zuko or even Rangi from that because she just doesn't have any scaling past that, both in scale (which she never really did) and more importantly potency which is the major determinant of power we have for her, Higher end shots from Zuko would be able to evaporate her arms, It being her defense too doesn't help at all, her arms are not tanking this:
Rangi isn't even better than Kya, and Ming literally demonstrated significantly more scale than both firebenders combined before her death. She can wield 9 tendrils with every single one being legitimately twice-three times Mako's size. Zuko barely ever even produces fireblasts larger than a person. And Zuko's "higher end shots", are just explosions who, you know, Mako (a bender who's attacks Ming can and has blocked plenty), can also create on an equal if not larger scale. And Ming accomplished that without any amps. It's a reductive point.
She's also not really faster than Zuko combat-wise like most people are saying, her best feat of speed in combat once again is pressing Kya and Mako in that area, both of whom are inferior to Zuko in speed and sets no reason for the assumption that she would be able to dominate Zuko in that manner, using comparison to the average soldier too, she's able to take on 3-4 max which is around Zuko's range.
She doesn't have to be, and you literally just made Zuko being faster than those characters up. There isn't any indication he's faster than them, the only interaction Zuko even has with mutual opponents to the two is Ghazan, who he wasn't faster than. And one could easily just assume Zuko didn't get any slower with age, since both Bumi and Iroh were doing just fine in terms of combat speed when they were old. And almost any named character can beat 4 fire nation soldiers or whoever you're referring to.
. It's going to be at most equal in this area between her and Zuko alone, adding that she has to deal with rangi too alongside Zuko definitely solidifies her having no advantage here.
Lol what is Rangi going to do to her?
The only thing that would really set ming apart in this fight is her mobility enhancement advantage with slide/spout which is more effective than that of the firebenders by feats and the implied power advantage she'll have with the full moon ( which isn't even a given as--like I said-- she doesn't even have anything to suggest she's above either of the firebenders in the first place), But these advantages are not enough to suggest any of the firebenders cannot at least keep her focused in a 1v1 regardless of if they would win or lose, Zuko and Rangi being highly physically capable fighters with good agility and reaction, also having their own mobility to help and both being smarter than Ming hua, I think either of them keeping her focused in that manner, like mako did for example, while the other exploits that by finding an opening that could straight up put her down or at least disorient her enough to which both of them can capitalize on (Mako/Bolin style against Ghazan) and put her down is a more likely outcome than Ming-Hua putting down two benders on her tier (imo) or to anyone else, at worst, a tier close to that with just dinky advantages.
Zuko's mobility isn't even good, he never showed the ability to use it in active combat. And we don't need full moon feats to know she has more power here, because she has superior feats of scale without it. Mako never fought an amped Ming Hua, and there's nothing suggesting he'd be as powerful as an amped Ming either. And Rangi isn't on her tier, or Zuko's. They both lose
I think it depends how the firebenders work together. Ming Hua isn’t going to lose in a straight clash considering she has the amp and river for proper power use, but if they try to finesse her, they can definitely win.
Hold up, you think Mako>Zuko? If you're looking at scale/potency, Zuko's shown raw power
In terms of scale and potency? Ya I do. The best feats Zuko has are explosive blasts, and when he melted Katara's ice encasing him. Mako can create explosive blasts on similar if not larger scale, and his plume of fire on Unalaq's camp is superior to Zuko melting Katara's ice. Not to mention he can bend explosions on a larger scale than what Zuko can create.
(and more consistency with that power) than Mako has.
I don't know what you're talking about, if anything it's the opposite. Mako consistently creates adult sized fireblasts (and spams them), whereas Zuko doesn't opt for such scale as often.
I'm genuinely unsure what you're remembering from Mako to make you think he's consistently more powerful than Zuko. The only time I can remember Mako making noteworthy explosions with his blasts was in the raid on Unalaq's camp, while Zuko has repeated showings of blasts having equal or greater force. He has plenty of sizeable blasts as well, if that's what you're more interested in
As some examples
Gallery
Couldn't get this to upload as a gif, but I wanted to include it as well
What has Mako done with any consistency that makes you think he's superior? I don't actually think I've ever heard someone try to argue that Mako is more powerful than Zuko
Rangi had sufficient power to blast groups of people down with a single blast, could produce concussive force felt by bystanders without even producing flame itself, and with a bit of charging produced a blast far stronger than anything Mako ever did.
Mako can and has downed groups of people with single blasts, and the last bit is untrue. Mako's charged attacks are much more powerful than Rangi's. Seeing how his lightning is powerful enough to blow the colossus spirit core (or whatever it was) up, which was enough to create a huge explosion that blew up the entire colossus.
You can't be serious, that's not even remotely the same thing. Mako used his lightning to overload the colossus's core, causing a chain reaction that blew up the colossus. It's not like Mako just hit the Colossus with lightning and destroyed it. Meanwhile, Rangi's charged blast was simply vaporizing everything it hit, pure destructive fire power.
Plus, we're talking about fire blasts here, not lightning
@arcus1: It was only described as vaporizing everything. It wasn't as if there was a metal wall in the scenario. I think people oversell Rangi and her white flame which takes her forever to charge.
I'm genuinely unsure what you're remembering from Mako to make you think he's consistently more powerful than Zuko. The only time I can remember Mako making noteworthy explosions with his blasts was in the raid on Unalaq's camp, while Zuko has repeated showings of blasts having equal or greater force. He has plenty of sizeable blasts as well, if that's what you're more interested in
The fact he can do everything Zuko can (that you posted) plus more, I don't know if you're asking me to go "feat for feat", but imo just posting explosive blasts or larger fireblasts would just be reductive, they both can do them with similar ease, Mako's best feats are just better in terms of scale. Which brings us to:
As some examples
Gallery
Couldn't get this to upload as a gif, but I wanted to include it as well
Your last video got cut off when I quoted - and I don't want to sound dismissive here, but none of these feats do anything for Zuko here. From what I'm gathering you're posting a combination of explosive blasts, as well as fireblasts you find impressive in scale. Which is nice, but the issue is whether or not these examples are superior to what Mako's done, and they just aren't. The best feat here is the combined explosion of him and Azula's amped punches, which Mako has already handled larger explosions, and created geysers with similar peaks (and that was without a stronger bender's help). The other best feats are explosive fireblasts, which Mako has already done, both in the S1 finale, on Unalaq's camp, and against Unalaq's shields. Other feats of scale (like this one) aren't even better than Mako covering a street with his fire, and definitely not better than the plume of fire he did on Unalaq's camp. And Mako can also create adult sized fireblasts, and blast away fodder with blasts as large as their bodies. So I don't see what these feats really accomplish. I'd post videos/gifs, but for some reason they're all on gfycat (which died), and I don't feel like making gifs right now, you seem to remember the feats anyways.
What has Mako done with any consistency that makes you think he's superior? I don't actually think I've ever heard someone try to argue that Mako is more powerful than Zuko
Again, what consistency are you referring to? Mako can create adult sized fireblasts, bend large explosions, and fire explosive blasts at will. I don't know what you want me to say, are you arguing his high end feats are outliers are something?
You can't be serious, that's not even remotely the same thing. Mako used his lightning to overload the colossus's core, causing a chain reaction that blew up the colossus.
That's what I meant, and tried to say.
It's not like Mako just hit the Colossus with lightning and destroyed it. Meanwhile,
Obviously, the colossus is way too durable for any bender to "bust".
Rangi's charged blast was simply vaporizing everything it hit, pure destructive fire power.
Plus, we're talking about fire blasts here, not lightning
No, we were talking about charged attacks. And whether or not it's firebending or lightning doesn't matter, what matters is which is more powerful, and it's not Rangi's. Not to mention charged attacks are rarely if ever used in combat anyways. It's a moot point in context of the fight.
The last feat specifically is about, 4-5x the size of the human body if I had to guess, though it's possibly even larger due to the lessened "altitude" of the base of the geysers. All of these blasts were no more than casual blasts he used in active combat, and here's a whopping 7 different feats here. So I don't know where you're getting at with consistency. This shows Zuko is comparable at best, and I still think his best feats are worse, I can't access the fire plume, or the explosive blast on Unalaq's camp that peaked to Zuko/Azula airship size, but I'm sure you remember those feats. All of these blasts are either adult sized or legitimately a few-several times larger than a person. Which is more than what you can say about Zuko's scale you've posted so far.
You can't be serious, that's not even remotely the same thing. Mako used his lightning to overload the colossus's core, causing a chain reaction that blew up the colossus.
That's what I meant, and tried to say.
It's not like Mako just hit the Colossus with lightning and destroyed it. Meanwhile,
Obviously, the colossus is way too durable for any bender to "bust".
Rangi's charged blast was simply vaporizing everything it hit, pure destructive fire power.
Plus, we're talking about fire blasts here, not lightning
No, we were talking about charged attacks. And whether or not it's firebending or lightning doesn't matter, what matters is which is more powerful, and it's not Rangi's. Not to mention charged attacks are rarely if ever used in combat anyways. It's a moot point in context of the fight.
...my initial reason for bringing up Rangi's charged blast was in response to the idea that she couldn't compete with the power of Mako's fire blasts. She's not likely to spend a few breaths charging up a blast that powerful here, but we can scale downwards to envision what she could do with more minimal charging
You genuinely don't see how overloading the spirit core (a completely unquantifiable feat) is irrelevant to that?
The last feat specifically is about, 4-5x the size of the human body if I had to guess, though it's possibly even larger due to the lessened "altitude" of the base of the geysers. All of these blasts were no more than casual blasts he used in active combat, and here's a whopping 7 different feats here. So I don't know where you're getting at with consistency. This shows Zuko is comparable at best, and I still think his best feats are worse, I can't access the fire plume, or the explosive blast on Unalaq's camp that peaked to Zuko/Azula airship size, but I'm sure you remember those feats. All of these blasts are either adult sized or legitimately a few-several times larger than a person. Which is more than what you can say about Zuko's scale you've posted so far.
These would be the gifs you're looking for
They are Mako's most impressive feats of raw power, but he's also never shown anything of this scale in combat
Again, they're also the only instance I can recall of Mako's blasts showcasing anything close to the explosive power Zuko was showing repeatedly in Book 3 (in addition to some earlier parts of the show as well)
As far as size of the blasts goes
Clearly larger than either Zuko or AzulaThat's Zuko's blast being blocked by ZhaoQuite clearly larger than several peopleSignificatly larger than the soldier
A few more that aren't quite as impressive
Gallery
But again, the force behind these blasts is just as important as the size. I know of one feat of Mako showcasing explosive blasts, does he have anything else?
Mako's blasts in that scene are also not his own power alone. On the top GIF he is shooting at containers that blow up afterwards, and on the second one the flames grow as the biplane's wing passes right over them with great speed.
Mako's blasts in that scene are also not his own power alone. On the top GIF he is shooting at containers that blow up afterwards, and on the second one the flames grow as the biplane's wing passes right over them with great speed.
We have no reason to believe it was the containers that created explosions, cause shortly right after that scene, Mako created an explosion with one blast in a part where there were no containers. We have no context as to whether the containers were filled with gasoline or something. There never was a scene where the characters are making plans and Mako strategically comes up with an idea to shoot gasoline containers. As to the biplane, the line of fire was already comparable in height to the people on the ground, it became about x2 as the plane flew away a little faster compared to before. And the plane wasn't flying in 'great speed' any time in the gif. I would do calcs if you want me to.
@agmine570: They had an elaborate plan of attack, and that's a compound full of vehicles, weapons technology and fuel. In any case, if that was Mako's blast creating the explosion, then it would've blown up on contact. It instead took a second after it reached the ground, which means the fire simply reached the fuel and it blew up.
What you're describing with the biplane is no different to what I said.
Even if the last feat is Sozin Comet amped, it's still extremely impressive. Ozai never created that kind of scale. Even his first plume doesn't come close. Zuko's Sozin Comet showing don't get enough credit while everyone swoons over Ozai and Iroh.
@agmine570: In any case, if that was Mako's blast creating the explosion, then it would've blown up on contact. It instead took a second after it reached the ground, which means the fire simply reached the fuel and it blew up.
.
There were two blasts in the same area, it is most likely, based on what was shown, Mako's latter blast was the only explosive one. And it wasn't even a second later the explosion happened for the second blast. We still don't have evidence or context that it's fuel btw.
If what you're saying is correct, why would they show this right after that scene?
@agmine570: Mako being capable of throwing an explosive blast doesn't mean he did it in that GIF as well. It's pretty clear to me that if he had created that explosion himself there wouldn't be a delay between the fire hitting the ground and the blow up. And we have a reasonable explanation in those metal barrels shaped like explosives.
I think breeze is an understatement. That trail went from "comparable to human height" to twice or thrice that. The point was that there's noteworthy context to those bits that are more or less Mako's most visibly destructive attacks.
...my initial reason for bringing up Rangi's charged blast was in response to the idea that she couldn't compete with the power of Mako's fire blasts. She's not likely to spend a few breaths charging up a blast that powerful here, but we can scale downwards to envision what she could do with more minimal charging
She can't. His spammable scale and potency is still superior to hers, and you can't just dismiss lightning now that it's brought up, we were just discussing power.
You genuinely don't see how overloading the spirit core (a completely unquantifiable feat) is irrelevant to that?
Nope
These would be the gifs you're looking for
They are Mako's most impressive feats of raw power, but he's also never shown anything of this scale in combat
Okay, first of all you can't dismiss feats that Mako hasn't "replicated in combat", while trying to prop up Rangi for utilizing charged techniques, or Zuko for shooting fireblasts offscreen. That's just using double standards. Second, the first gif wasn't what I was looking for at all (I already posted the scale of the fireblasts), I was referring to the final blast he made on Unalaq's camp, it was a large singular blast that was explosive.
Okay apparently it was posted above lmao
This feat was the one.
Again, they're also the only instance I can recall of Mako's blasts showcasing anything close to the explosive power Zuko was showing repeatedly in Book 3 (in addition to some earlier parts of the show as well)
There are literally just as many instances, and these feats were done by B1/B2 Mako, who isn't even on par with his EoS self yet, atleast portrayal wise.
As far as size of the blasts goes
Clearly larger than either Zuko or AzulaThat's Zuko's blast being blocked by ZhaoQuite clearly larger than several peopleSignificatly larger than the soldier
A few more that aren't quite as impressive
Okay, let's compare their feats then, for some reason it won't let me post images, so you'll have to click hyperlinks.
Clearly larger than either Zuko or Azula
Maybe 2x larger, 3 if we're being generous, it's still inferior to the geysers, or this. Again, producing fireblasts larger than humans aren't out of Mako's league.
That's Zuko's blast being blocked by Zhao
This blast isn't even greater scale than the blasts Mako threw at Amon while he was bloodbending Korra:
And he spammed a quartet of those blasts in quick succession.
Quite clearly larger than several people
Mako can also create fireblasts larger than several people, which I already posted... he can also cover large widths with casual gestures, seeing how he covered the width of a street by doing so.
Okay, hopefully that fitted like, 12+ screenshots in total. I don't know why I can't post pictures, but anyways.
But again, the force behind these blasts is just as important as the size.
Sure, which is why I pointed out how Mako can also create explosions with his fireblasts, which is the best thing Zuko offers in terms of potency. In terms of scale, what the scans above for Mako prove is that Zuko is... comparable at best. And you still haven't shown a feat superior to the geysers, or atleast tried to scale humans to one to find some sort of measurement, and in comparison to all of Zuko's feats, all of Mako's feats I posted above were performed in active combat, and it's his casual spammable scale he can create with each fireblast. And for the record, this line you said earlier:
but he's also never shown anything of this scale in combat
Is also false, Mako's replicated that same fire plume against Ming Hua, with the same scale, the only difference is he didn't sustain it so the entire area of effect wasn't showcased like it was on Unalaq's camp.
I know of one feat of Mako showcasing explosive blasts, does he have anything else?
The geysers, Unalaq's camp, a few of the blasts used against Unalaq and Ming, for starters.
Even if the last feat is Sozin Comet amped, it's still extremely impressive. Ozai never created that kind of scale. Even his first plume doesn't come close. Zuko's Sozin Comet showing don't get enough credit while everyone swoons over Ozai and Iroh.
The palace
Feat 1 is just snapping some (rather thin) chains. Katara can do that with just a water pouch, and Ming Hua can do that too just by "punching" them with her tendrils, and Mako had no issues stalemating those same movements and attacks.
Feat 2 isn't a combat move, and it's not better than Mako's plume on Unalaq's camp in scale.
Him actually producing that scale is questionable, since y'know, fire spreading in a dry area, but that was also a built up (and sword-aided) attack that didn't even KO that nameless soldier.
This move showed 0 concussive force and is still inferior to Mako's fire plume.
It was during the comet, Mako never fought under the comet, so that's questionably relevant. And there's no actual way you think that blast is larger scale than the plume Ozai used to burn Wulong forest.
1. Feat 1 is just snapping some (rather thin) chains. Katara can do that with just a water pouch, and Ming Hua can do that too just by "punching" them with her tendrils, and Mako had no issues stalemating those same movements and attacks.
Obliterating multiple chains with force from a fire blast and cutting a singular chain with ice or water are completely different things. And the chains weren't relatively thin.
2. Feat 2 isn't a combat move, and it's not better than Mako's plume on Unalaq's camp in scale.
No, but it does display Zuko can pull off some scale. If a feat is not impressive because it's not useful in combat, what's so special about let's say, Jeong Jeong's fire wall? And the plume was made by a continuous stream while this feat was performed at once. Also, that plume most likely was influenced by the byplane and got x2~x3. I think a more comparable feat from Mako would be this.
3. Him actually producing that scale is questionable, since y'know, fire spreading in a dry area, but that was also a built up (and sword-aided) attack that didn't even KO that nameless soldier.
It wasn't built up, it was rather instant. He was consistently creating fire for the one second he was spinning around. And using the same 'dry area' logic we can also discredit a lot of Azula's best feats as well. Most of Book 2 took place in areas with low humidity.
4. This move showed 0 concussive force and is still inferior to Mako's fire plume.
Aside from that, the building explosions, and explosion bending, (I'm not sure of the blasts he shot at Amon) I can't think of his other feats that rival or surpass this. It doesn't surpass all of Mako's feats, but it does surpass his standard human sized blasts in scale. I wasn't pointing about potency with the gif, just scale.
5. It was during the comet, Mako never fought under the comet, so that's questionably relevant. And there's no actual way you think that blast is larger scale than the plume Ozai used to burn Wulong forest
If you compare the plume to the Royal Palace, nonetheless Zuko's friendly mushroom which was even bigger,
Yes, I think it is. At least in volume, and I'm not sure if it's close. tbh I'm not even sure whether the plume was even taller.
Obliterating multiple chains with force from a fire blast and cutting a singular chain with ice or water are completely different things. And the chains weren't relatively thin.
It wasn't multiple chains, they were just wrapped around her legs, and you can literally see how thin they are in the scan in which he broke them. An android photo that doesn't even show anything different doesn't disprove anything.
No, but it does display Zuko can pull off some scale.
Dude, I never denied Zuko can pull off "some scale", I'm comparing him to someone else, if by your own admission the feats you're posting aren't superior in scale there's nothing we have to even talk about here.
If a feat is not impressive because it's not useful in combat, what's so special about let's say, Jeong Jeong's fire wall?
Because I don't care about what you consider impressive, we're discussing a fight, and fight options characters have against each other, which is why all of my scans are just me posting the spammable scale Mako offers. Jeong Jeong has nothing to do with it, because we haven't seen him fight, and for the record I don't find that fire wall feat to be as crazy as other people do. Azula can create a massive fire whip/stream instantaneously, and ascened/descend the stream at will. Jeong Jeong's feat took a squat and two motions as a buildup, I wouldn't question Azula being able to do something similar if she put forth the same effort.
And the plume was made by a continuous stream while this feat was performed at once. Also, that plume most likely was influenced by the byplane and got x2~x3. I think a more comparable feat from Mako would be this.
Exactly, it shows Mako can not only create large instantaneous scale, but maintain it for extended periods of time. There's also no evidence that feat was influenced by that byplane, it also wouldn't matter, since we've seen him use that technique more than once.
And the explosions Mako bent were larger in scale than Zuko's colorful fire spout or whatever you want to call it. They were also larger in scale than any explosion Zuko created himself.
It wasn't built up, it was rather instant. He was consistently creating fire for the one second he was spinning around
The entire feat took 2 seconds to build, which while not significant, most combat-related feats are performed in less time than that. For instance - Azula's lightning (before comics), takes about 2 seconds to use, and she never uses it during active combat because it takes too long. And again, he had his swords to aid him, and it's the same spin move he used against Azula in the finale, and the kyoshi warriors in B1 E4, and it isn't even better than Mako's better scale feats anyways.
And using the same 'dry area' logic we can also discredit a lot of Azula's best feats as well. Most of Book 2 took place in areas with low humidity.
No we can't, because I never once referred to the fire that followed up Azula's attacks to reference her scale, only her attacks themselves. It's just that dry area + a lot of fire = fire spreading.
Aside from that, the building explosions, and explosion bending, (I'm not sure of the blasts he shot at Amon) I can't think of his other feats that rival or surpass this. It doesn't surpass all of Mako's feats, but it does surpass his standard human sized blasts in scale. I wasn't pointing about potency with the gif, just scale.
It surpasses Mako's standard blasts because it wasn't a standard blast, it was a move that required several different movements of buildup, and unlike Mako's standard blasts it displayed 0 concussive force. Mako also still has showcased standard blasts that are larger in scale, and significantly more potent.
But all that aside, if you agree it doesn't surpass Mako's scale, what was the point of even bringing it up? That's what the argument was. I've posted more than enough proof that Zuko is comparable at best. Which you don't even seem to disagree with, so I don't know what you're trying to prove here.
If you compare the plume to the Royal Palace, nonetheless Zuko's friendly mushroom which was even bigger,
How are you supposed to do that? He wasn't at the royal palace when he made the plume, and it wasn't. You're too fixated on the royal palace because that's where the Zuko/Azula fight took place, and the camera angles of both shots. Ozai is legitimately hundreds of meters in the air when he shoots the fire plume, the land you see here is not flat, those are the height of the trees, and when you see the full scale here, you can see it's legitimately covering several miles of forest at its base where it's burning the trees, and it still has the size of comet fireblasts on top of that. You're trying to compare two completely different feats, Zuko's friendly mushroom wasn't as large as this entire location lol, we don't even know if it reached the height of the volcano itself, because of the lengthy distance between them, you could do the same thing for the huge mountains in the background of Ozai's feat as well if you didn't take that into consideration. All we really know about the feat is that it absolutely dwarfs the Fire nation buildings, but Ozai's would too, so I don't even know where you're getting at here. It also has nothing to do with the topic, because Ozai has little feats to begin with and we have little reference on what his scale would look like without SC, and Mako never fought with the comet amp. So even if Zuko had more scale than Ozai under the comet (he didn't), it wouldn't have anything to do with Mako.
Yes, I think it is. At least in volume, and I'm not sure if it's close. tbh I'm not even sure whether the plume was even taller.
Ozai's feat has more volume, the only thing I even considered Zuko's feat being comparable in was height. But again, and don't take this the wrong way, but I don't know why you bothered replying if you agree with my stance, and didn't even bother disproving it, just posting Zuko's feats that we've all seen dozens of times doesn't change anything or help his case here.
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