Minerva McGonagall, Severus Snape, and Bellatrix Lestrange vs. Lord Voldemort

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geekryan

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#1  Edited By geekryan

Minerva McGonagall, Severus Snape, and Bellatrix Lestrange

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VS.

Lord Voldemort

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Rules

  • Everyone is in character but serious and determined to win
  • Team is willing to work together and cooperate
  • Victory by KO, death, or incap
  • Team gets 5 minutes of prep
  • Voldemort has his standard wand (not Elder)
  • Starting distance is 30 feet
  • Battle takes place in the ruins of the Courtyard during the Battle of Hogwarts
  • There are no other people nearby

Rounds

Round 1: Book Feats Only

Round 2: Movie Feats Only

Round 3: Composite Feats

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ANTHP2000

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Voldemort should win R1, maybe Team in R2. Could go either in R3.

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decaf_wizard

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#4  Edited By decaf_wizard

Voldemort already was beating a comparable team in McGonnagal, Slughorn, and Kingsley

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geekryan

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Voldemort already was beating a comparable team in McGonnagal, Slughorn, and Kingsley

Kingsley and Slughorn are not near the level of combat skill of Snape or Bellatrix...

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decaf_wizard

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#6  Edited By decaf_wizard

@geekryan said:
@decaf_wizard said:

Voldemort already was beating a comparable team in McGonnagal, Slughorn, and Kingsley

Kingsley and Slughorn are not near the level of combat skill of Snape or Bellatrix...

Slughorn is certainly comparable to Snape, and Kingsley is probably the closest person to Bellatrix that isnt a tier below her (if Voldermort/Grindlewald/Dumbledore are tier 10's, she is a tier 9 and Kingsley is an 8.5 IMO)

Kingsley is also certainly superior to Snape. He went toe to toe with two named death eaters simultaneously at the Department of Mysteries battle and came out on top. I don't think there's a single instance in any of the books where Kingsley is ever bested in combat, except for against Voldemort himself and against Dumbledore, who he was likely jobbing intentionally against

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geekryan

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@decaf_wizard: Umm Kingsley lost to Bellatrix in the Battle of the Astronomy Tower...

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decaf_wizard

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#8  Edited By decaf_wizard

@geekryan said:

@decaf_wizard: Umm Kingsley lost to Bellatrix in the Battle of the Astronomy Tower...

I never said he was better.......I said he is probably the closest person to her that isnt superior

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geekryan

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@decaf_wizard: But still. By feats, both Snape and Bellatrix are superior to Kingsley and Slughorn.

They are also much more familiar with the Dark Arts and Voldemort himself, which could give them a much better advantage in a fight against him.

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decaf_wizard

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#10  Edited By decaf_wizard

@geekryan said:

@decaf_wizard: But still. By feats, both Snape and Bellatrix are superior to Kingsley and Slughorn.

They are also much more familiar with the Dark Arts and Voldemort himself, which could give them a much better advantage in a fight against him.

Id argue Slughorn over Snape tbh. If not by feats then by implication

Slughorn is arguably comparable in knowledge to Snape as well. And that goes both ways, Voldemort would be very well suited to countering Bella, for example. Far more so than Shacklebolt

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EmmaFrostXmen

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Round 1- Voldemort Solidly

Round 2- Team In an extremely hard battle, Bella is the MVP

Round 3- Voldemort But they make him work for it

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geekryan

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@geekryan said:

@decaf_wizard: But still. By feats, both Snape and Bellatrix are superior to Kingsley and Slughorn.

They are also much more familiar with the Dark Arts and Voldemort himself, which could give them a much better advantage in a fight against him.

Id argue Slughorn over Snape tbh. If not by feats then by implication

Slughorn is arguably comparable in knowledge to Snape as well. And that goes both ways, Voldemort would be very well suited to countering Bella, for example. Far more so than Shacklebolt

Feats > Statements. McGonagall, Snape, and Bellatrix also have lots of statements to back them up, plus the feats.

Snape has actually practiced the Dark Arts and was involved with Voldemort for decades...That kind of experience and knowledge doesn't compare to Slughorn. When Dumbledore was dying from the curse of the ring, he sought out Snape for help, not Slughorn.

And yeah, it does go both ways, but it would be harder for Voldemort to utilize that advantage in a 3v1 than it would for Bellatrix to use it.

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ProfessorRespect

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Snape solos

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ElPendejo

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Yeah I’m still trying to figure out just how good Snape is so I’m gonna day idk

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YodaOrb35

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@decaf_wizard: He was stalemating them: when Bellatrix died, his anger was so great that it caused an explosion of rage that knocked those closest to him into the air. Given that that's not an ordinary occurrence I don't think that counts as a victory.

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decaf_wizard

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#17  Edited By decaf_wizard

@geekryan said:

Trying to put a ranking on Snape is very tricky because seldom do we see him duel at his best, and at his worst he gets dunked on by Harry before he can react. The most we know of his magical skill is in non- combative arts, like Occlumency, Dark Arts and Potions. What we do know is he was probably the most skilled Occlumens in the entire series barring Dumbledore and Voldemort, and also had a unique ability and talent for editing potions recipes. The only duels we see him are against Harry, and McGonnagal and Flitwick. These two are fixed showings though, as they dont really mean much as in both instances he was not trying to harm (rather, defeat/kill I guess) the opponents

We see a lot more from Slughorn without context. We see him casting master level human transfiguration (something stated extremely difficult) and charms spells throughout the books (such as non-verbally casting a Patronus) and in the defence of Hogwarts alongside Flitwick and McGonagall. We see Dumbledore admit that he would not be able to penetrate Slughorn's mind with Legilimency. And of course we see him hold his own against what was essentially bloodlusted Voldermort with the Elder Wand, alongside two others. And he was known to have dispatched several death eaters when lesser wizards the likes of Remus were having issues with only one

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Voldemort would win. The one that will last the longest is Snape, but he will go down eventually. He will hold his own for a while at least.

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YodaOrb35

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@decaf_wizard: We have never seen Slughorn summon a patronus. Where did you see that?

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decaf_wizard

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@decaf_wizard: We have never seen Slughorn summon a patronus. Where did you see that?

In the movie version during the battle of Hogwarts, after Voldy and the like show up

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deactivated-5d1d6494661e3

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@decaf_wizard

Trying to put a ranking on Snape is very tricky because seldom do we see him duel at his best, and at his worst he gets dunked on by Harry before he can react.

A surprise attack/cheapshot has no bearing on Snape's ability to duel especially given he's out reacted faster opponents. If you want feats Snape has stalemated McGonagall and out reacted her during the initial exchange of their duel. Minerva has been stated to be above Dawlish who is Kingsley tier by accolades and has also managed to fight as an equal to Kingsley and Slughorn when they were duelling Voldemort.

The most we know of his magical skill is in non- combative arts, like Occlumency, Dark Arts and Potions. What we do know is he was probably the most skilled Occlumens in the entire series barring Dumbledore and Voldemort, and also had a unique ability and talent for editing potions recipes.

I don't think any of these are relevant tbh which you seem to agree with.

The only duels we see him are against Harry, and McGonnagal and Flitwick. These two are fixed showings though, as they dont really mean much as in both instances he was not trying to harm (rather, defeat/kill I guess) the opponents

They mean a lot actually. His fight against Harry isn't too impressive as Harry didn't have any optimal defence against Snape's Legilimency so Snape could read him like an open book and subdue him before he could react.

His fight with Minerva is impressive though. He negates most of her attacks and out reacts her in the initial exchange despite having a surprise advantage. Reflexes are key in a duel as has been established multiple times in the books so him out reacting her is definitely a showing of superiority given he's proven he's equally versatile and skilled with magic. The showing shouldn't simply be ignored because he wasn't trying to kill her (even then that's up for debate).

We see a lot more from Slughorn without context.

Have we really? Because as far as I can see almost none of the below is relevant.

We see him casting master level human transfiguration (something stated extremely difficult) and charms spells throughout the books (such as non-verbally casting a Patronus) and in the defence of Hogwarts alongside Flitwick and McGonagall.

Why is human transfiguration impressive exactly? Also, I don't remember this so I'd like a quote if you don't mind.

Snape has performed Charms as well. It isn't impressive.

We see Dumbledore admit that he would not be able to penetrate Slughorn's mind with Legilimency.

Legilimency is incredibly ineffective. Draco can block Snape's legilimency and it's pretty much directly stated several times that as long as one has an adequate mental defence no matter their strength as a wizard their mind can't be read.

And of course we see him hold his own against what was essentially bloodlusted Voldermort with the Elder Wand, alongside two others.

While protected by Harry's sacrifice... And one of those was Minerva who Snape is probably better than.

And he was known to have dispatched several death eaters when lesser wizards the likes of Remus were having issues with only one

Remus has never had issues with a single Death Eater (at least not to my recollection he hasn't). I also don't recall Slughorn ever holding off multiple Death Eaters so quote, please.

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Cregan_Stark

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Voldemort should win after a decent fight

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Bearderby

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#23  Edited By Bearderby

Round 1: Voldemort, confidently

Round 2: Team, high diff

Round 3: Voldemort, confidently

jokes to that Snape solos

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MyGod000

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Voldemort Wins all 3 rounds.

Base Voldemort is more powerful than Base Dumbledore. Numbers games doesn't really matter to Wizards on Voldemort and Dumbledore's level they can take on numerous Wizards at the same time with ease.

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jimmyvailer

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Dumbledore, Grindelwald, and Voldemort are several tiers above any other wizard. Dumbledore casually stomped Bellatrix with a statue while fighting Voldemort, protecting Harry, and alerting the Ministry at the same time.

Voldemort LOLstomps.

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@decaf_wizard: Not only was he beating Kingsley, McGonagall, and Slughorn, he was doing it while using a wand that wasn’t his and while having to deal with Harry’s protection.

He absolutely demolishes this team with the Elder wand and no Harry.

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Dumbledore, Grindelwald, and Voldemort are several tiers above any other wizard. Dumbledore casually stomped Bellatrix with a statue while fighting Voldemort, protecting Harry, and alerting the Ministry at the same time.

Voldemort LOLstomps.

Voldemort and Dumbledore yes, we can confirm that they are several tiers above any other wizards. However, Grindelwald maybe, but he isn't in the same tier as Voldemort or even Dumbledore. I say this Because Dumbledore Beat Grindelwald, when Grindelwald had the Elder wand...We know that Base Voldemort was already on par with Dumbledore, this was before we knew Dumbledore had the strongest wand ever made.

This just reinforces the idea that Voldemort is actually more powerful than Dumbledore was, and then their is statements from Dumbledore admitting that Voldemort was better than he was. overall I agree with 90% of your post, but I think Grindelwald may Struggle with McGonagall, Snape, and Bellatrix.

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#28  Edited By jimmyvailer

@mygod000: It's pretty clear from the chapter "The Only One He Ever Feared" that Dumbledore is meant to be easily above Voldemort (the movie was a travesty). He was casually duelling (his goal was not to win the duel but to protect Harry and alert the Ministry) and still overcoming Riddle. Meanwhile Riddle was trying to kill Albus (while shaking with fear the entire time) and failed miserably (he had to flee).

Grindelwald's feats in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them are very very impressive. He was demolishing 40+ Aurors until Newt ambushed him from behind.

Dumbledore is known for his modesty and he never said Voldemort was better than he was. He said Voldemort had powers he will never have and McGonagall said that was only because he chooses not to use those powers.

“You flatter me,” said Dumbledore calmly. “Voldemort had powers I will never have.”

“Only because you’re too — well —noble to use them.”

In fact, Albus, on numerous occasions over the rest of the series, criticizes Riddle's limited knowledge of magic.

Dumbledore was clearly written by Rowling to be ahead of Riddle. However, Voldemort would still stomp McGonagall, Snape, and Bellatrix in his sleep (especially since this battle gives him the Elder wand and he's not being held back by Harry).

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MyGod000

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@mygod000: It's pretty clear from the chapter "The Only One He Ever Feared" that Dumbledore is meant to be easily above Voldemort (the movie was a travesty). He was casually duelling (his goal was not to win the duel but to protect Harry and alert the Ministry) and still overcoming Riddle. Meanwhile Riddle was trying to kill Albus (while shaking with fear the entire time) and failed miserably (he had to flee).

Grindelwald's feats in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them are very very impressive. He was demolishing 40+ Aurors until Newt ambushed him from behind.

Dumbledore is known for his modesty and he never said Voldemort was better than he was. He said Voldemort had powers he will never have and McGonagall said that was only because he chooses not to use those powers.

“You flatter me,” said Dumbledore calmly. “Voldemort had powers I will never have.”

“Only because you’re too — well —noble to use them.”

In fact, Albus, on numerous occasions over the rest of the series, criticizes Riddle's limited knowledge of magic.

Dumbledore was clearly written by Rowling to be ahead of Riddle. However, Voldemort would still stomp McGonagall, Snape, and Bellatrix in his sleep (especially since this battle gives him the Elder wand and he's not being held back by Harry).

It's pretty clear from the chapter "The Only One He Ever Feared" that Dumbledore is meant to be easily above Voldemort (the movie was a travesty). He was casually duelling (his goal was not to win the duel but to protect Harry and alert the Ministry) and still overcoming Riddle. Meanwhile Riddle was trying to kill Albus (while shaking with fear the entire time) and failed miserably (he had to flee).

Grindelwald's feats in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them are very very impressive. He was demolishing 40+ Aurors until Newt ambushed him from behind.

Dumbledore is known for his modesty and he never said Voldemort was better than he was. He said Voldemort had powers he will never have and McGonagall said that was only because he chooses not to use those powers.

Well, good points. However, Fearing someone doesn't really mean that he was weaker than someone. pretty much in all the books it implied Voldemort has the most knowledge of magic alive. You forget that Dumbledore had the Elder wand which is the most powerful Wand in existence, and Voldemort still stalemated him, Take that Wand away and give them both normal Wands and then tell me if the results remain the same which I doubt strongly.

“I knew that Voldemort’s knowledge of magic is perhaps more extensive than any wizard alive. I knew that even my most complex and powerful protective spells and charms were unlikely to be invincible if he ever returned to full power

^In HBP proves right their by Dumbledore that not only that Voldemort knows more magic than just the dark arts it also pretty much implies that he knows more than Grindelwald who at this point was still alive.

I'll post the battle how it went down:

Voldemort attacks first and Dumbledore vanishes, reappearing behind Voldemort. Dumbledore sends the centaur into attack, then Voldemort vanishes and reappears near the pool. Dumbledore moves towards Voldemort, and the dark lord attacks, but misses. Dumbledore sends a spell at Voldemort, which he blocks with a magic shield. Voldemort attacks again, and the centaur takes the hit. Dumbledore casts the flame spell which surrounds Voldemort, but dark lord changes it into a serpent and vanishes.

Voldemort reappears and instantly casts the killing curse, at the same time the snake strikes. Fawkes then flies in and takes the hit, eating the jet of green. Dumbledore turns the serpent into smoke, and cocoons Voldemort with water. Voldemort the vanishes again and possesses Harry.

You said Voldemort Feared Dumbledore, which is facts, because Dumbledore Defeated the second Greatest Dark Wizard Grindelwald...It doesn't prove that he was weaker...If Voldemort was that scared of Dumbledore and the disparity in their abilities was so great than Voldemort would not have engaged Dumbledore and would have just left...especially since Dumbledore was going to have back in the form of the Aurors, and OTP. As for Grindelwald holding his own against 40+ Aurors, that is bit of an exaggeration...it was less than 20, and that is hard impressive since we don't even know any feats from those Wizards and The Ministry offered to give Harry potter Protection from Voldemort in the form of Aurors, and Harry potter laughed at that idea pretty much said they can't do anything against Voldemort.

Anyways, Voldemort is implied to be Dumbledore Equals only that he uses Dark Magic while Dumbledore uses Light Magic. Like I mentioned evidence points to Voldemort being slightly better since when Voldemort dueled Dumbledore, he didn't know that Dumbledore had the strongest wand ever...Neither did we as the audience until like book 6 or something and Voldemort found out at the end of book 7 part 1 about the Deathly hollows. Voldemort was literally using his power power and matching Dumbledore who was using the power of the elder wand.

I am not taking anything away from Grindelwald I think he is extremely powerful...But the other two are just much more powerful than him since Dumbledore bested him and beat the power of the Elder wand as well.

This is going a bit off topic so let try not to derail the thread, On topic Voldemort should easily stomp the team in all 3 rounds.

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jimmyvailer

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#30  Edited By jimmyvailer

@mygod000: I didn't say him fearing Dumbledore meant he was weaker. "The Only One He Ever Feared" was just the title of the chapter. However, if you read the chapter (I'm not going to paste the whole battle here), Albus was clearly superior.

I did not forget Dumbledore had the Elder wand. However, he had an emphatic victory without it, so if they both had normal wands, Dumbledore would still win (although it'd be a lot closer). Voldemort didn't come close to stalemating, considering APWBD wasn't even trying to defeat him and was multi-tasking the whole fight and still forced Voldemort to flee.

How does Half-Blood Prince prove that Voldemort know more than Dumbledore? The whole series was Voldemort floundering around unable to kill Harry because of his extremely limited knowledge of magic. Voldemort LOST in the end at the Battle of Hogwarts because Dumbledore thoroughly outsmarted him on every level.

You keep countering your own arguments.

If Voldemort was that scared of Dumbledore and the disparity in their abilities was so great than Voldemort would not have engaged Dumbledore and would have just left

Yeah exactly. The disparity in their abilities was so great which is why Voldemort left the Ministry. He tried duelling Dumbledore, embarrassed himself, and then fled.

As for Grindelwald holding his own against 40+ Aurors, that is bit of an exaggeration...it was less than 20

Wrong again. Count carefully. Less than 20 LOL.

No Caption Provided

Tina is also an Auror and Picquery is an extremely skilled witch. Even if all those Aurors are on Dawlish level, that is still an extremely impressive feat by Grindelwald. Although Tina is definitely a very powerful Auror.

Grindelwald was a lot more knowledgeable than Voldemort, knowing about the Hallows and laughing in Tom's face at his ignorance. Gellert didn't kill without reason or needlessly (like Gregorovitch or in Crimes of Grindelwald) and was a lot more cunning and stable than Voldy.

Grindelwald also accomplished a lot more than Voldemort. He took over the whole world except Britain. Voldemort couldn't even take over Britain (or kill a teenager) because he kept getting outsmarted by Dumbledore.

Dumbledore said Grindelwald was almost evenly matched with him.

"Not what he could do to me magically. I knew that we were evenly matched, perhaps that I was a shade more skillful."

Throughout the whole series, he never said Riddle was even close to him and constantly derides his limited knowledge of magic. I can post quotes if you want but I'm too lazy right now. Voldemort has powers Dumbledore doesn't only because Dumbledore chooses not to use them. The whole series shows Dumbledore playing chess while Voldemort was playing checkers.

On topic: Voldemort would LOLstomp Snape, Bellatrix, and McGonagall as he's several tiers above them, but it's clear that Rowling wrote Dumbledore as superior (and it was ultimately Dumbledore who kept thwarting him and eventually orchestrated his defeat) and Grindelwald is being shown to be superior throughout the Fantastic Beasts series.

Tier 1.

Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore

Gellert Grindelwald

Tier 2.

Tom Marvolo Riddle

Tier 3.

Tier 4.

Tier 5.

Tier 6.

Tier 7.

Minerva McGonagall

Bellatrix Lestrange

Kingsley Shacklebolt

Severus Snape

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marvelfan1992

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@jimmyvailer: while Dumbledore is definitely superior to Voldemort even without the EW, and Grind may also be superior, I would still put all of them in the same tier. Also, I don't think Kingsley should be in the same tier as those 3, didn't he lose decisively to Bellatrix right after she just got freed from prison for like over a decade

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deactivated-5d1d6494661e3

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No reliable method of comparison can be formed between Grindelwald and Voldemort to determine who is better. Meanwhile, we have objective sources confirming Voldemort is better and thematically speaking it's clear that was JK Rowling's intention.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here though. Dumbledore is clearly better than Voldemort and I'll gladly either CaV or at least debate in this thread with anyone who disagrees.

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deactivated-5d1d6494661e3

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@marvelfan1992:

while Dumbledore is definitely superior to Voldemort even without the EW, and Grind may also be superior, I would still put all of them in the same tier.

Voldemort has multiple quotes placing him as Grindelwald's better.

Also, I don't think Kingsley should be in the same tier as those 3, didn't he lose decisively to Bellatrix right after she just got freed from prison for like over a decade

The Death Eaters had months to recover and were never displayed to be seriously affected by it.

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marvelfan1992

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@big_c: i said 'may' just to leave it more open ended as I don't want to get into a discussion about Gellart vs Tom with him, my main point was just that they are all in the same tier

Oh wait didn't that happen in the department of mysteries? Do remind me where it occurred

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@marvelfan1992:

i said 'may' just to leave it more open ended as I don't want to get into a discussion about Gellart vs Tom with him, my main point was just that they are all in the same tier

Fair enough.

Oh wait didn't that happen in the department of mysteries? Do remind me where it occurred

Yes, it happened in the department of mysteries. Though IIRC they had months to recover between breaking out of Azkaban and going there as I said previously.

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MyGod000

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@mygod000: I didn't say him fearing Dumbledore meant he was weaker. "The Only One He Ever Feared" was just the title of the chapter. However, if you read the chapter (I'm not going to paste the whole battle here), Albus was clearly superior.

I did not forget Dumbledore had the Elder wand. However, he had an emphatic victory without it, so if they both had normal wands, Dumbledore would still win (although it'd be a lot closer). Voldemort didn't come close to stalemating, considering APWBD wasn't even trying to defeat him and was multi-tasking the whole fight and still forced Voldemort to flee.

How does Half-Blood Prince prove that Voldemort know more than Dumbledore? The whole series was Voldemort floundering around unable to kill Harry because of his extremely limited knowledge of magic. Voldemort LOST in the end at the Battle of Hogwarts because Dumbledore thoroughly outsmarted him on every level.

You keep countering your own arguments.

If Voldemort was that scared of Dumbledore and the disparity in their abilities was so great than Voldemort would not have engaged Dumbledore and would have just left

Yeah exactly. The disparity in their abilities was so great which is why Voldemort left the Ministry. He tried duelling Dumbledore, embarrassed himself, and then fled.

As for Grindelwald holding his own against 40+ Aurors, that is bit of an exaggeration...it was less than 20

Wrong again. Count carefully. Less than 20 LOL.

No Caption Provided

Tina is also an Auror and Picquery is an extremely skilled witch. Even if all those Aurors are on Dawlish level, that is still an extremely impressive feat by Grindelwald. Although Tina is definitely a very powerful Auror.

Grindelwald was a lot more knowledgeable than Voldemort, knowing about the Hallows and laughing in Tom's face at his ignorance. Gellert didn't kill without reason or needlessly (like Gregorovitch or in Crimes of Grindelwald) and was a lot more cunning and stable than Voldy.

Grindelwald also accomplished a lot more than Voldemort. He took over the whole world except Britain. Voldemort couldn't even take over Britain (or kill a teenager) because he kept getting outsmarted by Dumbledore.

Dumbledore said Grindelwald was almost evenly matched with him.

"Not what he could do to me magically. I knew that we were evenly matched, perhaps that I was a shade more skillful."

Throughout the whole series, he never said Riddle was even close to him and constantly derides his limited knowledge of magic. I can post quotes if you want but I'm too lazy right now. Voldemort has powers Dumbledore doesn't only because Dumbledore chooses not to use them. The whole series shows Dumbledore playing chess while Voldemort was playing checkers.

On topic: Voldemort would LOLstomp Snape, Bellatrix, and McGonagall as he's several tiers above them, but it's clear that Rowling wrote Dumbledore as superior (and it was ultimately Dumbledore who kept thwarting him and eventually orchestrated his defeat) and Grindelwald is being shown to be superior throughout the Fantastic Beasts series.

Tier 1.

Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore

Gellert Grindelwald

Tier 2.

Tom Marvolo Riddle

Tier 3.

Tier 4.

Tier 5.

Tier 6.

Tier 7.

Minerva McGonagall

Bellatrix Lestrange

Kingsley Shacklebolt

Severus Snape

Okay, I stand Corrected about the Auror, Like I said it doesn't prove anything really.

you are Wrong about the Battle, no one had the upper hand and no one was superior when Voldemort dueled Dumbledore. what? Did you read the battle? Dumbledore incased Voldemort in water in an attempt to incapacitate him, there are other ways to win duels without using deadly force, that can be just as deadly if used correctly.

in that Battle Dumbledore had out side help in the form of Fawkes, which going by what we know comes to a Dumbledore in a time of need. So, Dumbledore needed Fawkes protection otherwise he would have died in that fight against Voldemort instantly.

Harry had been a year old the night that Voldemort — the most powerful Dark wizard for a century, a wizard who had been gaining power steadily for eleven years — arrived at his house and killed his father and mother(Goblet of Fire).

And the Voldemort page on Pottermore:

Formerly known as Tom Marvolo Riddle and commonly referred t as He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. The most powerful Dark wizard of all time

Lily and James Potter had not died in a car crash. They had been murdered, murdered by the most feared Dark wizard for a hundred years, Lord Voldemort(Prisoner of Azkaban).

At the age of one year old, Harry had somehow survived a curse from the greatest Dark sorcerer of all time, Lord Voldemort, whose name most witches and wizards still feared to speak (Chamber of Secrets).

In COS

“Brilliant,” he said softly. “Of course, he was probably the most brilliant student Hogwarts has ever seen.”

every source agrees on the same thing that Voldemort>Grindelwald. There isn't anything else that needs to be debated on that, because Pottermore and all others sources says Voldemort is Greater than Grindelwald.

Dumbledore in Chamber of Secretes stated that Voldemort was the most brilliant Student Hogwarts has ever seen.

Voldemort attempts four killing curses and a snake against Dumbledore which he manages to evade:

1. disapparates out of the way

2. described as missing

3.uses the centaur to block and shatters into a million pieces

4. Fawkes swoops in and swallows the curse and blows up while Dumbledore deals with the snake.

When dumbldore attacks Voldemort:

1. disapparates out of the centaurs way

2. conjures a silver shield against Dumbledore unknown spell that does no visible damage to it

3. Dumbledore fire rope wraps around both Voldemort and shield but is quickly turned into a snake.

4. Dumbledore traps Voldemort in a water dome and while Voldemort had a bit of trouble trying to throw it off he then simply disapparates to a safe location.

None of Dumbledore spells could even Penetrate Voldemort's Silver Shield, the only Time Voldemort showed a bit of Struggle is when he was trying to get the Water dome which was an Attempt to suffocate Voldemort and knock him out until the Aurors Arrived, which Voldemort just said Nope and Disapparated to a safe location.

Let be honest, if Dumbledore was standing in front of those Aurors in FB do you honestly think Grindelwald is going to stay and fight all that with Dumbledore helping them?

Dumbledore was injured in his fight with Voldemort, and needed Fawkes help to block the killing curse otherwise Voldemort would have been the master of the Elder wand in Book 5.

Voldemort>Dumbledore w/Elder Wand=Base Voldemort>Base Dumbledore>Grindelwald w/ Elder wand>Base Grindelwald.

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marvelfan1992

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@big_c: ah right, for some reason i had it in my mind that they broke out and went directly there lol that's what I get for getting on CV after pulling an all-nighter. But still, I dunno if I want to rank kingsley in the same tier as bella, but I suppose he could be. Do you have the time to give me a refresher on his best duelling feats? All I can recall at the moment is fighting off 2 death eaters in the department of mysteries fight and the 3on1 with Minerva and Horace vs Voldemort who could not actually cause them lethal harm coz they were being shielded by Harry's love aura or whatever the hell that was

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jimmyvailer

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@mygod000: LOL I've read the battle hundreds of times (unlike you). As I've already explained, Dumbledore's goal in the fight was to protect Harry and alert the Ministry. Voldemort's goal was to kill Dumbledore. One of those two accomplished their goal decisively, the other ran away. Ergo, it's obvious who won the battle.

LOL Fawkes is an extremely lazy argument. Dumbledore could've just as easily disapparated if Fawkes hadn't eaten the curse. He chose not to do so as he knew Fawkes would shield him. Unless you think Dumbledore is dumb enough to just stand in front of an Avada Kedavra. Just like Captain America can dodge a bullet but sometimes he chooses not to do so and lets his shield block it.

Is this your first day on the Vine? Feats >>> statements. Rowling did not know she was going to write a prequel series when she wrote those (also she doesn't write most of the Pottermore articles so they are not canon). However, the Fantastic Beasts beasts series is showing that Grindelwald is much more accomplished than Voldemort (who other than Horcruxes did not accomplish much). He is shown to be much more intelligent, stable, knowledgeable, and cunning than Voldemort and actually managed to take over the majority of the world. Voldemort failed epically at killing a teenager (thanks to Dumbledore's machinations).

However, Grindelwald also has feats in the Harry Potter series. He managed to last 3 hours against Dumbledore (which is about 2 hours and 55 minutes longer than Voldemore) and he laughed in Voldemort's face at his ignorance. Also if you want statements, Grindelwald was stated to be just a shade under Dumbledore.

It's in the very first chapter of the series (which at this point I'm unsure if you've even read) that Dumbledore is written to be the greatest wizard in the series.

“My dear Professor, surely a sensible person like yourself can call him by his name? All this ‘You-Know-Who’ nonsense — for eleven years I have been trying to persuade people to call him by his proper name: Voldemort.” Professor McGonagall flinched, but Dumbledore, who was unsticking two lemon drops, seemed not to notice. “It all gets so confusing if we keep saying ‘You-Know-Who.’ I have never seen any reason to be frightened of saying Voldemort’s name.”

“I know you haven’t,” said Professor McGonagall, sounding half exasperated, half admiring. “But you’re different. Everyone knows you’re the only one You-Know- oh, all right, Voldemort, was frightened of.”

“You flatter me,” said Dumbledore calmly. “Voldemort had powers I will never have.”

“Only because you’re too — well —noble to use them.

Even with all his Death Eaters, Voldemort never attempted to make a direct assault on Hogwarts while Dumbledore was alive as he knew he couldn't win in a duel against the headmaster. If he could, why wouldn't he eliminate his biggest threat? He knows where to find Dumbledore and could go and kill him at his leisure.

One o’ the only safe places left was Hogwarts. Reckon Dumbledore’s the only one You-Know-Who was afraid of. Didn’t dare try takin’ the school, not jus’ then, anyway.

I know you haven't read the books, so I'll provide you with some more quotes. Dumbledore completely deride's Tom's lack of knowledge.

“Merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit”

“There is nothing worse than death, Dumbledore!” snarled Voldemort.

“You are quite wrong,” said Dumbledore, still closing in upon Voldemort and speaking as lightly as though they were discussing the matter over drinks. Harry felt scared to see him walking along, undefended, shieldless; he wanted to cry out a warning, but his headless guard kept shunting him backwards towards the wall, blocking his every attempt to get out from behind it. “Indeed, your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness”

Again Dumbledore shows his much greater knowledge of magic than Voldemort. Voldemort's ignorance enabled Harry to survive his killing curse again.

“He said my blood would make him stronger than if he’d used someone else’s,” Harry told Dumbledore. “He said the protection my — my mother left in me — he’d have it too. And he was right — he could touch me without hurting himself, he touched my face.” For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore’s eyes.

Dumbledore calls Tom ignorant to his face.

“Of some kinds of magic,” Dumbledore corrected him quietly. “Of some. Of others, you remain . . . forgive me . . . woefully ignorant.”

Albus is "disdainful, even disappointed" towards Voldemort.

“Thank you,” said Harry gratefully, but Dumbledore had already turned his attention back to the solid cave wall. He did not try any more magic, but simply stood there staring at it intently, as though something extremely interesting was written on it. Harry stayed quite still; he did not want to break Dumbledore’s concentration. Then, after two solid minutes, Dumbledore said quietly, “Oh, surely not. So crude.”

“I said it was crude,” said Dumbledore, who sounded disdainful, even disappointed, as though Voldemort had fallen short of the standards Dumbledore expected. “The idea, as I am sure you will have gathered, is that your enemy must weaken him- or herself to enter. Once again, Lord Voldemort fails to grasp that there are much more terrible things than physical injury.”

Dumbledore calls Voldemort ignorant again (with good reason, since he managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory through his ignorance).

“I think you know,” said Dumbledore. “Think back. Remember what he did, in his ignorance, in his greed and his cruelty.”

Again Dumbledore states that Voldemort's knowledge is very lacking.

“And his knowledge remained woefully incomplete, Harry! That which Voldemort does not value, he takes no trouble to comprehend. Of house-elves and children’s tales, of love, loyalty, and innocence, Voldemort knows and understands nothing. Nothing. That they all have a power beyond his own, a power beyond the reach of any magic, is a truth he has never grasped.

Even Harry knew more than Voldemort thanks to knowledge he received from Dumbledore.

“Yes, I dare,” said Harry. “I know things you don’t know, Tom Riddle. I know lots of important things that you don’t. Want to hear some, before you make another big mistake?”

I think you were misunderstanding when Dumbledore stated that Riddle was perhaps the most brilliant student to attend Hogwarts. Albus meant naturally talented. Voldemort was an extremely skilled wizard who was more than capable of defeating the likes of McGonagall and Bellatrix. However, his knowledge of magic was incredibly limited and was regularly scoffed at by APWBD. This is further evidenced through Voldemort bumbling his way through the whole series and eventually getting defeated by Dumbledore's plan.

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MyGod000

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#39  Edited By MyGod000

@jimmyvailer said:

@mygod000: LOL I've read the battle hundreds of times (unlike you). As I've already explained, Dumbledore's goal in the fight was to protect Harry and alert the Ministry. Voldemort's goal was to kill Dumbledore. One of those two accomplished their goal decisively, the other ran away. Ergo, it's obvious who won the battle.

LOL Fawkes is an extremely lazy argument. Dumbledore could've just as easily disapparated if Fawkes hadn't eaten the curse. He chose not to do so as he knew Fawkes would shield him. Unless you think Dumbledore is dumb enough to just stand in front of an Avada Kedavra. Just like Captain America can dodge a bullet but sometimes he chooses not to do so and lets his shield block it.

Is this your first day on the Vine? Feats >>> statements. Rowling did not know she was going to write a prequel series when she wrote those (also she doesn't write most of the Pottermore articles so they are not canon). However, the Fantastic Beasts beasts series is showing that Grindelwald is much more accomplished than Voldemort (who other than Horcruxes did not accomplish much). He is shown to be much more intelligent, stable, knowledgeable, and cunning than Voldemort and actually managed to take over the majority of the world. Voldemort failed epically at killing a teenager (thanks to Dumbledore's machinations).

However, Grindelwald also has feats in the Harry Potter series. He managed to last 3 hours against Dumbledore (which is about 2 hours and 55 minutes longer than Voldemore) and he laughed in Voldemort's face at his ignorance. Also if you want statements, Grindelwald was stated to be just a shade under Dumbledore.

It's in the very first chapter of the series (which at this point I'm unsure if you've even read) that Dumbledore is written to be the greatest wizard in the series.

“My dear Professor, surely a sensible person like yourself can call him by his name? All this ‘You-Know-Who’ nonsense — for eleven years I have been trying to persuade people to call him by his proper name: Voldemort.” Professor McGonagall flinched, but Dumbledore, who was unsticking two lemon drops, seemed not to notice. “It all gets so confusing if we keep saying ‘You-Know-Who.’ I have never seen any reason to be frightened of saying Voldemort’s name.”

“I know you haven’t,” said Professor McGonagall, sounding half exasperated, half admiring. “But you’re different. Everyone knows you’re the only one You-Know- oh, all right, Voldemort, was frightened of.”

“You flatter me,” said Dumbledore calmly. “Voldemort had powers I will never have.”

“Only because you’re too — well —noble to use them.

Even with all his Death Eaters, Voldemort never attempted to make a direct assault on Hogwarts while Dumbledore was alive as he knew he couldn't win in a duel against the headmaster. If he could, why wouldn't he eliminate his biggest threat? He knows where to find Dumbledore and could go and kill him at his leisure.

One o’ the only safe places left was Hogwarts. Reckon Dumbledore’s the only one You-Know-Who was afraid of. Didn’t dare try takin’ the school, not jus’ then, anyway.

I know you haven't read the books, so I'll provide you with some more quotes. Dumbledore completely deride's Tom's lack of knowledge.

“Merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit”

“There is nothing worse than death, Dumbledore!” snarled Voldemort.

“You are quite wrong,” said Dumbledore, still closing in upon Voldemort and speaking as lightly as though they were discussing the matter over drinks. Harry felt scared to see him walking along, undefended, shieldless; he wanted to cry out a warning, but his headless guard kept shunting him backwards towards the wall, blocking his every attempt to get out from behind it. “Indeed, your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness”

Again Dumbledore shows his much greater knowledge of magic than Voldemort. Voldemort's ignorance enabled Harry to survive his killing curse again.

“He said my blood would make him stronger than if he’d used someone else’s,” Harry told Dumbledore. “He said the protection my — my mother left in me — he’d have it too. And he was right — he could touch me without hurting himself, he touched my face.” For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore’s eyes.

Dumbledore calls Tom ignorant to his face.

“Of some kinds of magic,” Dumbledore corrected him quietly. “Of some. Of others, you remain . . . forgive me . . . woefully ignorant.”

Albus is "disdainful, even disappointed" towards Voldemort.

“Thank you,” said Harry gratefully, but Dumbledore had already turned his attention back to the solid cave wall. He did not try any more magic, but simply stood there staring at it intently, as though something extremely interesting was written on it. Harry stayed quite still; he did not want to break Dumbledore’s concentration. Then, after two solid minutes, Dumbledore said quietly, “Oh, surely not. So crude.”

“I said it was crude,” said Dumbledore, who sounded disdainful, even disappointed, as though Voldemort had fallen short of the standards Dumbledore expected. “The idea, as I am sure you will have gathered, is that your enemy must weaken him- or herself to enter. Once again, Lord Voldemort fails to grasp that there are much more terrible things than physical injury.”

Dumbledore calls Voldemort ignorant again (with good reason, since he managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory through his ignorance).

“I think you know,” said Dumbledore. “Think back. Remember what he did, in his ignorance, in his greed and his cruelty.”

Again Dumbledore states that Voldemort's knowledge is very lacking.

“And his knowledge remained woefully incomplete, Harry! That which Voldemort does not value, he takes no trouble to comprehend. Of house-elves and children’s tales, of love, loyalty, and innocence, Voldemort knows and understands nothing. Nothing. That they all have a power beyond his own, a power beyond the reach of any magic, is a truth he has never grasped.

Even Harry knew more than Voldemort thanks to knowledge he received from Dumbledore.

“Yes, I dare,” said Harry. “I know things you don’t know, Tom Riddle. I know lots of important things that you don’t. Want to hear some, before you make another big mistake?”

I think you were misunderstanding when Dumbledore stated that Riddle was perhaps the most brilliant student to attend Hogwarts. Albus meant naturally talented. Voldemort was an extremely skilled wizard who was more than capable of defeating the likes of McGonagall and Bellatrix. However, his knowledge of magic was incredibly limited and was regularly scoffed at by APWBD. This is further evidenced through Voldemort bumbling his way through the whole series and eventually getting defeated by Dumbledore's plan.

Anyways that is not what we were told from Fantastic Beast 2, it stated that Fawkes comes to a Dumbledore in a time of need.

Dumbledore needed that Fawkes otherwise he would have died. Yes, Voldemort wanted to Kill Dumbledore, what I said was Dumbledore Attempt to suffocate Voldemort in a Water Dome was using deadly force to win a battle. Like I said Sure Dumbledore didn't Attempt the Killing spell, but attempting to suffocate with a water dome can be just as deadly if used correctly.

During Voldemort's Rise to power, Dumbledore was losing the first Wizard war, it was obvious he was losing judging by the reactions on the Order of the Phoenix face. Everyone close to Dumbledore was getting killed, and it was implied Dumbledore was losing the battle against Voldemort until Voldemort went to kill Harry potter as a baby.

again, at the end of the day Voldemort stalemated Dumbledore who had the Elder wand and had no way of defeating Voldemort with brute Strength. even at the end of their battle it was stated that Dumbledore sustained injuries from Voldemort. So...nothing more needs to be said Voldemort is clearly stronger and more magically powerful than Dumbledore he needed the elder Wand to duel Voldemort and only stalemated in the end. The whole plot of the series was that only Harry can defeat Voldemort not Dumbledore so...there is that as well. Dumbledore has more wisdom than Voldemort, and the Dumbledore that Fought Voldemort was stronger, and more experienced then the one who fought Grindelwald.

I can see this isn't going to go anywhere, we are just going to go around in circle so i'm not going to end the debate on this note you have a good day.

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deactivated-5d1d6494661e3

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@marvelfan1992:

ah right, for some reason i had it in my mind that they broke out and went directly there lol that's what I get for getting on CV after pulling an all-nighter.

RIP.

But still, I dunno if I want to rank kingsley in the same tier as bella, but I suppose he could be.

He could be ranked on her tier I suppose but there's not a lot in the way of reliable comparisons.

Do you have the time to give me a refresher on his best duelling feats?

Certainly. He did the feats you mentioned, is heavily implied to be better than Tonks, fought a group of 5 Death Eaters and managed to take out 3 of them in Deathly Hallows (granted their position in Voldemort's army is unknown and they might not have been members of his inner circle). Also, all be it off screen and for a short period of time he held off Voldemort.

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BreakOfDawn

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#41  Edited By BreakOfDawn

R1: Voldemort in a good fight. If he's rage amped, it's a decent fight. It should be noted he was hindered by Harry's protective ward preventing him from killing any of them or even casting long-lasting spells on them.

R2: Voldemort in a great fight or maybe the team. Destroying a barrier put in place by the combined magical powers of Mcgonagall, Slughorn, Flitwick and Mrs Weasley while using a wand that wasn't even loyal to him and which rebelled him to the point it started breaking apart should be enough of a feat to suggest he wins. However, Bellatrix and Snape, both peers of Mcgonagall, could be enough to turn the tide.

R3: Still Voldemort.

@big_c@marvelfan1992 Kingsley lasted about 30 seconds against Bellatrix, which is incredibly impressive but not enough to put him anywhere near her level.

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vengefulshot

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Voldemort should win the first round solidly. Snape lacks the feats to contend, as does McGonagall tbh.

Round 2, I'd argue he wins even more solidly, maybe even easily. Both Snape and Minerva still have the feat problem and Bellatrix is nerfed to the ground, her movie counterpart was a shadow of how she was portrayed in the books.

Round 3 team might edge it, or at least force a 4/10 minority. Bellatrix mvp.

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Viking1205

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Riddle takes R1 and R3. Team edge out in 2. But I can see arguments made for R2 as well.

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Richard96

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^^^^^^^^

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Voldemort all rounds. 1 and 3 go for him casually, in 2 he has problems but comes out on top nonetheless.

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KingAntagonist

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Voldemort beat them all and without much troubles tbh. He was holding his own and managed to overwhelm with pure rage Kingsley Minerva and Slughorn at the same time, which is incredible it's the fact he did that with his spells and magic being restrained and not working due to Harry Protection.

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Voldemort beat them all and without much troubles tbh. He was holding his own and managed to overwhelm with pure rage Kingsley Minerva and Slughorn at the same time, which is incredible it's the fact he did that with his spells and magic being restrained and not working due to Harry Protection.

True, but Bellatrix and Snape should be superior to Kingsley and Slughorn, while also having the advantage of knowing/using Dark Magic, knowing how Voldemort fights, etc.

Just putting that out there.