Midnighter vs Spider-Man

Ok, this is one of a very few battles that I've wondered about off and on for a long time without coming to a decision. I'm a fan of both characters (one more than the other) and I don't want Midnighter to lose, but I think it's a distinct possibility. (I'm pretty sure that's almost exactly how I started the Martian Manhunter/Mr. Majestic thread.) Anyway, it's a fight I'd like to see done justice, but also one that might leave me a little dissatisfied no matter the result.

As far as I can tell, Spider-Man is stronger than Midnighter. Midnighter can punch heads off and junk, but if Marvel allowed their comics to be a little more...messy, Spider-Man could too. However, I'm fairly certain that despite Spidey being stronger, if Midnighter got a hold of him, even for a second, he'd have the necessary strength and ability to kill him. And that is the real reason I haven't decided who wins yet. I don't know if Midnighter can get a hold of him (and vice versa). It's not a strength or even a speed issue in my mind, just a question of how Midnighter's combat computer would fair against Pete's Spidey Sense. The way I usually see it, both abilities allow for the user to be several steps ahead of their enemy, but I think Midnighter's is better and could bring him victory. His allows him to see many more steps ahead (all the way to the end), tells him millions of ways for every possible move to play out, and also exactly what his opponent is going to do, giving him the information he needs to plan ahead and find the best way to win. Spider-Man's doesn't reach as far ahead or calculate as many variables, but it does tell him what he needs to know and with enough time to avoid harm. I figure that Midnighter can start the fight and already have a plan in place that forces Spider-Man into a position he can't get out of in time even with his spider sense, and then just take him down. There is more to the fight than just their precognitive abilies (though the other stuff doesn't carry as much weight) and there is more about these abilities than even what I said, but that's where I start.

Those are a few of my thoughts on it, an opening statement of sorts. So, both combatants in character, who do you think wins?

Or

They're fighting (or at least starting) in the streets of Metropolis during rush hour.

(I'm not going to tell you to go read up on both characters, I just plan on ignoring anyone that shows that they don't know what they're talking about.)

Ok I looked up Midnight cause I had a general idea what he can do but dang that is crazy. How does anyone beat him? Anyways as for this battle. Midnight would know Spider-Man has a Spider-Sense so he can put that into his calculations as he works out his battle plan. The thing he doesn't know the is how the Spider-Sense is going to tell him to react. But from I worked out he things of a plan for ever possible reacting Spider-Man could pull off. So even with Spider-Sense he is already ready anything he will do. I don't see how anyone has beaten this guy. Sorry Spider-Man but I don't think you can win.

Midnighter's implants put him on par with Apollo's strength... so at least at Spiderman's level...

i think the deciding factor here would be Spiderman's agility... he's far above Midnighter in agility and speed, and though Midnighter's implants actually give him an upperhand on some of it, Spiderman's speed, agility and equal strength would be too much to overcome.

i've actually got to give this one to Spiderman

M

Methos says:

"Midnighter's implants put him on par with Apollo's strength... so at least at Spiderman's level... i think the deciding factor here would be Spiderman's agility... he's far above Midnighter in agility and speed, and though Midnighter's implants actually give him an upperhand on some of it, Spiderman's speed, agility and equal strength would be too much to overcome. i've actually got to give this one to Spiderman M"

Midnighter has been beat before, specifically by speedsters with greater speed and agility than him...

the only way he survived was to use a "Door".

he has also been beaten by people with superior strength, though in this case he actually used psychological warfare to win the battle.

Midnighter is just as dangerous when he's talking, maybe even more so than when he's fighting. he managed to convince an ex marine to give up fighting and go home to his lover in the middle of a war. so letting him talk to an 'emo' like Peter... hell, he'd probably have Peter slitting his wrists inside an hour...

ok, i forgot about his psychological warfare training, i'm switching my vote to Midnighter lol

M

Methos says:

"Midnighter has been beat before, specifically by speedsters with greater speed and agility than him... the only way he survived was to use a "Door". he has also been beaten by people with superior strength, though in this case he actually used psychological warfare to win the battle. Midnighter is just as dangerous when he's talking, maybe even more so than when he's fighting. he managed to convince an ex marine to give up fighting and go home to his lover in the middle of a war. so letting him talk to an 'emo' like Peter... hell, he'd probably have Peter slitting his wrists inside an hour... ok, i forgot about his psychological warfare training, i'm switching my vote to Midnighter lol M"

i've only read a few issues of "Ultimate Spiderman", specifically the Venom storyline...

i only really picked that up because is was written by Brian Bendis and inked by Art Thibert and Rodney Ramos. if i ever see Bendis and Ramos working together i have to get it...

those two are an amazing team, everything they work on it amazing stuff :D

M

Methos says:

"i've only read a few issues of "Ultimate Spiderman", specifically the Venom storyline... i only really picked that up because is was written by Brian Bendis and inked by Art Thibert and Rodney Ramos. if i ever see Bendis and Ramos working together i have to get it... those two are an amazing team, everything they work on it amazing stuff :D M"

trust me... if you ever see Bendis and Ramos as Writer and Inker (respectively), pick up the book...

it's like seeing Waid and Ross (writer and artist respectively) working together... just buy the book, you know it's going to be amazing :D

M

I don't pick up books due to writers or artist, mostly cause I am really bad at names and won't know who it is anyways.

writer and artist are actually the only 2 things i look at when i'm going to pick up new stuff...

my local store knows if there's anything by "Michael Turner" being released, or "Alex Ross", to automatically give it to me, because i'll buy it :D

what do you use to pick up comics then? characters? publishers?

M

Mostly the characters involved.

ok, we'll take this dicusssion over to http://www.comicvine.com/message/how-do-you-decide-on-a-new-comic-to-pick-up/342834/ so we don't ruin buckshots thread :D

M

Methos says:

"Midnighter's implants put him on par with Apollo's strength... so at least at Spiderman's level... i think the deciding factor here would be Spiderman's agility... he's far above Midnighter in agility and speed, and though Midnighter's implants actually give him an upperhand on some of it, Spiderman's speed, agility and equal strength would be too much to overcome. i've actually got to give this one to Spiderman M"

Actually Midnighter is much weaker than Apollo, less durable and potentially has less endurance.

Many of the under pinning bits of info for these statements can be found in the Authority comic when Apollo and Midnighter first appeared.

In their (with the other Team Black members) first mission, it is Aploolo and Amaze (superman and Wonder Woman variants) who rip the big doors off the hinges. Is it Apollo who also says to stay behind me to Midnighter as he is not bullet proof.

During the Stormwatch briefing on Midnighter and Apollo for the stormwatch team, when Midnighter and Apollo are rogue agents, he describes Apollo as having flight, a weird eye construction that alllows him to lase light and massive strength enhancement with commesurate structural augmentation.

Midnighter is described as enhanced chrarcteristics, tough, quick and has the weird battle computer (1 million scenerios etc etc) (I might have ommitted a few things as that's all from memory).

We don't see midnighter comitting huge strength feats and all of this info is supported by the Official Silver Age Sentinels RPG setting for the Authority.

Their stats, backed by the writers, indate strength to a level of 1-2 tonnes, enhanced durability (near bullet proof), enhanced reactions and speed (several times faster than a normal human), senses to indicate the nature of a persons super powered enhancements and the precognitive battle computer.

Although Midnighter has the ability to see most/all of the fights outcomes/activities, he is still only so fast, only so durable and only so strong.

Spiderman has faced stronger, faster and more durable foes before in hand to hand and come on easily on top.

Spidereman is far stronger and quicker and I would say, he also has more endurance as well. For durability, I would say that Midnighter is better.

As for the battle computer advantage, being able to see a fights activies before the event and being able to avoid them are different things. Midnighter has been manhandled by speedsters before. Although you may know the combination of blows going to be thrown, you still need to avoid them.

Spiderman has too great a reaction speed and strength advantage to overcome in this context when you combine it with the slight offensive/defensive offset granted by his spider sense. Although only intuitive and not all seeing, it does allow some offset against the simulator.

As for psychological warfare, Peter is strong enough to overcome it.

Although Midnighter's battle computer makes him unbeatable for most enemies, when he runs into a fight his computer hasn't recorded he can be in serious trouble. When he encountered Regis he got pounded into the pavement, simply because he'd never encountered anyone who fought like Regis did. If Spider-Man decides to fight using the "spider within" or whatever he calls it, there's a good chance Midnighter won't know how to respond. And Spidey's more than capable of matching him physically, so that won't be an issue.
Post Edited:2007-10-31 08:56:58

I just read up on Midnighter and his powers seem incredible. Although his computer does give him some edge in this battle. I don't think he'll be able to move faster that Peter due to his enhanced agility. He's also one of those fighters that you can't really know what to expect from him. Midnighter can see every possibility in this fight, but I think that Parker'll end up on top, tired, but on top.

I like the Creator's diagnosis of the fight. Mainly because it grounds in Midnighter what I have considered to ambiguous a powerset. I know he is enhanced and can see more outcomes than his opposition but can he execute the necessary moves to be victorious. In that is his weakness. Which all good well rounded characters need.

I like the Creator's diagnosis of the fight. Mainly because it grounds in Midnighter what I have considered to ambiguous a powerset. I know he is enhanced and can see more outcomes than his opposition but can he execute the necessary moves to be victorious. In that is his weakness. Which all good well rounded characters need.

Colt Python says:

"So Spidey wins? Or what?"

Going by a majority vote, yes, Peter wins.

Alexander Anderson says:

"Although Midnighter's battle computer makes him unbeatable for most enemies, when he runs into a fight his computer hasn't recorded he can be in serious trouble. When he encountered Regis he got pounded into the pavement, simply because he'd never encountered anyone who fought like Regis did. If Spider-Man decides to fight using the "spider within" or whatever he calls it, there's a good chance Midnighter won't know how to respond. And Spidey's more than capable of matching him physically, so that won't be an issue.
Post Edited:2007-10-31 08:56:58"

Actually, Midnighter does not have to have seen a person before to overcome them. He special senses allow him to know the powers of who he is fighting and I suppose in some way gauge their fighting ability.

He got pounded by Regis because Regis has some telepthic ability and he could see what Midnighters battle computer was see and this allowed him to circumvent it's predictions.

The_Creator says:

"Although Midnighter has the ability to see most/all of the fights outcomes/activities, he is still only so fast, only so durable and only so strong. Spiderman has faced stronger, faster and more durable foes before in hand to hand and come on easily on top. Spidereman is far stronger and quicker and I would say, he also has more endurance as well. For durability, I would say that Midnighter is better. As for the battle computer advantage, being able to see a fights activies before the event and being able to avoid them are different things. Midnighter has been manhandled by speedsters before. Although you may know the combination of blows going to be thrown, you still need to avoid them. Spiderman has too great a reaction speed and strength advantage to overcome in this context when you combine it with the slight offensive/defensive offset granted by his spider sense. Although only intuitive and not all seeing, it does allow some offset against the simulator. As for psychological warfare, Peter is strong enough to overcome it. "

Far stronger, I agree with, though I don't think that spells defeat. You don't need to be ridiculously strong for a nerve strike to work. Midnighter has killed enemies with a well placed poke before. And it's not as if any of Pete's punches, should they land, are going to stop Midnighter. First, he rarely uses his full strength, and second, Midnighter's durability, healing ability, redundant systems, and tolerance for pain, all working together mean he can keep going even when severely messed up. Far faster, I don't agree with. Excluding unmeasured bursts of speed, Midnighter normally operates at a very fast pace. I'm going past normal bullet dodging because of all the recent discussion, but he can parry bullets (fired from automatic weapons) with his staff. That's not just moving out of the general vicinity of a bullet or "dodging the gun", that's being able to calculate the trajectory of a fast moving projectile and react fast enough to put something relatively narrow exactly in it's path and then readjust and do it again and again for every bullet coming his way. I'm not saying he's faster than Spider-Man (Pete can do the exact same thing, there's pretty solid evidence for it) but I believe he's fast enough that he can, especially with something in his head that tells him what is going to happen long before it does, fight Spider-Man. I know that knowing what's going to happen and preventing it are two different things, I just don't think that Spider-Man is so fast that Midnighter won't be able to react. And could you refresh my memory on the speedsters that manhandled him?

Splitting this into two seperate things now, say the speed difference you say is there (and anything else that might unbalance it) is gone, now who wins? I'm talking about combat computer agains spider sense, this is the part of it that's of most interest to me.

Buckshot says:

"The_Creator says:

"Although Midnighter has the ability to see most/all of the fights outcomes/activities, he is still only so fast, only so durable and only so strong. Spiderman has faced stronger, faster and more durable foes before in hand to hand and come on easily on top. Spidereman is far stronger and quicker and I would say, he also has more endurance as well. For durability, I would say that Midnighter is better. As for the battle computer advantage, being able to see a fights activies before the event and being able to avoid them are different things. Midnighter has been manhandled by speedsters before. Although you may know the combination of blows going to be thrown, you still need to avoid them. Spiderman has too great a reaction speed and strength advantage to overcome in this context when you combine it with the slight offensive/defensive offset granted by his spider sense. Although only intuitive and not all seeing, it does allow some offset against the simulator. As for psychological warfare, Peter is strong enough to overcome it. "

Far stronger, I agree with, though I don't think that spells defeat. You don't need to be ridiculously strong for a nerve strike to work. Midnighter has killed enemies with a well placed poke before. And it's not as if any of Pete's punches, should they land, are going to stop Midnighter. First, he rarely uses his full strength, and second, Midnighter's durability, healing ability, redundant systems, and tolerance for pain, all working together mean he can keep going even when severely messed up. Far faster, I don't agree with. Excluding unmeasured bursts of speed, Midnighter normally operates at a very fast pace. I'm going past normal bullet dodging because of all the recent discussion, but he can parry bullets (fired from automatic weapons) with his staff. That's not just moving out of the general vicinity of a bullet or "dodging the gun", that's being able to calculate the trajectory of a fast moving projectile and react fast enough to put something relatively narrow exactly in it's path and then readjust and do it again and again for every bullet coming his way. I'm not saying he's faster than Spider-Man (Pete can do the exact same thing, there's pretty solid evidence for it) but I believe he's fast enough that he can, especially with something in his head that tells him what is going to happen long before it does, fight Spider-Man. I know that knowing what's going to happen and preventing it are two different things, I just don't think that Spider-Man is *so* fast that Midnighter won't be able to react. And could you refresh my memory on the speedsters that manhandled him? Splitting this into two seperate things now, say the speed difference you say is there (and anything else that might unbalance it) is gone, now who wins? I'm talking about combat computer agains spider sense, this is the part of it that's of most interest to me."

Sorry Buckshot but pretty much all my comics are in storage (and that means i cannot get to them).

I am pretty sure that he did get beaten by a speedster in the past - basically running at him from long distances away so that before combat could commence it was over - and hence the simulator was no significant benefit.

I have to disagree on the amount of damage Spidey's blows would do.

I agree that he would never go in full tilt - far from it, but he would realise quickly that his normal level blows were having little effect and so he would use more strength. If he used anywhere near his 20 tonne peak, those blows would hurt Midnighter.

If we removed the speed and the like, then Midnighter as the simulator provides not only short term fluid dynamic battle changes, but shows the long battle progression as well, so enables long term planning.

The spider sense is a much shorter tem warning and cannot really provide planning scope beyond don't do this. It does not provide for what is the best course of action.

So in this case, Midnighter would easily win.

I don't recall an incident with a speedster. I remember both Swift and Jack Hawksmoor dealing with speedsters, but nothing with Midnighter. If it happened though, the difference is that the character was a speedster, so probably a lot faster than Spider-Man anyway, and also used a technique that allowed him to be attacking before Midnighter's computer was even working.

I really don't believe any blows from Spider-Man (again, assuming they land) would stop Midnighter for several reasons. First, I doubt any hits would be solid ones. With his own speed and advanced warning (computer) he can move so as to minimize the damage from each hit. Second, his pain sensors can be turned off. That means that he may not feel anything more than a small sensation telling him that he's been hit. Third, the only damage I've seen that's really stopped him from fighting for any length of time included lots of blood and holes in his body. I just don't see Spider-Man as that vicious. He'd probably try to trap Midnighter rather than cripple him or put a fist through his chest (things that would slow Midnighter considerably, but still not stop him). None of this is to say that if Spider-Man managed to tag Midnighter repeatedly he could ignore it forever, but if Spider-Man is close enough to hit Midnighter, he's close enough to get hit, and despite being weaker, Midnighter could kill him in one hit. Midnighter has taken damage just to get closer to his enemy, so I think if he's getting hit, it's just so he's close enough to hit back.

Anyway, we disagree on speed and exactly what Spider-Man's blows would do to Midnighter, but the main thing for me was their precognitive abilities, and we agree on that so I'm good.

Awesome battle Buckshot, this is a very hard one

There's some awesome posts in here.

"

The_Creator says:

"Although Midnighter has the ability to see most/all of the fights outcomes/activities, he is still only so fast, only so durable and only so strong. Spiderman has faced stronger, faster and more durable foes before in hand to hand and come on easily on top. Spidereman is far stronger and quicker and I would say, he also has more endurance as well. For durability, I would say that Midnighter is better. As for the battle computer advantage, being able to see a fights activies before the event and being able to avoid them are different things. Midnighter has been manhandled by speedsters before. Although you may know the combination of blows going to be thrown, you still need to avoid them. Spiderman has too great a reaction speed and strength advantage to overcome in this context when you combine it with the slight offensive/defensive offset granted by his spider sense. Although only intuitive and not all seeing, it does allow some offset against the simulator. As for psychological warfare, Peter is strong enough to overcome it. "

Far stronger, I agree with, though I don't think that spells defeat. You don't need to be ridiculously strong for a nerve strike to work. Midnighter has killed enemies with a well placed poke before. And it's not as if any of Pete's punches, should they land, are going to stop Midnighter. First, he rarely uses his full strength, and second, Midnighter's durability, healing ability, redundant systems, and tolerance for pain, all working together mean he can keep going even when severely messed up. Far faster, I don't agree with. Excluding unmeasured bursts of speed, Midnighter normally operates at a very fast pace. I'm going past normal bullet dodging because of all the recent discussion, but he can parry bullets (fired from automatic weapons) with his staff. That's not just moving out of the general vicinity of a bullet or "dodging the gun", that's being able to calculate the trajectory of a fast moving projectile and react fast enough to put something relatively narrow exactly in it's path and then readjust and do it again and again for every bullet coming his way. I'm not saying he's faster than Spider-Man (Pete can do the exact same thing, there's pretty solid evidence for it) but I believe he's fast enough that he can, especially with something in his head that tells him what is going to happen long before it does, fight Spider-Man. I know that knowing what's going to happen and preventing it are two different things, I just don't think that Spider-Man is so fast that Midnighter won't be able to react. And could you refresh my memory on the speedsters that manhandled him?

Splitting this into two seperate things now, say the speed difference you say is there (and anything else that might unbalance it) is gone, now who wins? I'm talking about combat computer agains spider sense, this is the part of it that's of most interest to me.

"

Thats a good point Ebony. I suppose the speed aspect of it would be putting the staff were it needs to be after the first round, but how many bullets has he deflected in one go, a full clip, or just the one or two he couldnt physically dodge at the time?

Also considering this fight is in a city and Spidey is a wall crawler with webbing i think he has an even greater advantage [if the fight stays above ground that is.] The areas Spidey has been shown to cover, quickly, with net styley webbing sheets is quite large; something that may be hard to avoid despite seeing whats going to happen. Spidey could fence off areas and blanket them with webbing, helping him to trap Midnighter.

Webbing in close combat would be usefull too. Spiderman can make the stuff come out in wide enough sprays that in the extreme range of close combat would be hard to dodge, a Midnighter with his eyes covered and arms/legs restricted for even a few moments is a Midnighter who can have his head ripped off or punched through by Spiderman.

Shouldnt Spidermans Spider sense have a similar effect as Regis ability. In the sense that it warns him of [maybe not so specifically] an attack. So what if Regis could read the guys mind? He has the same issue as Midnighter and thats being fast/strong enough to do something about what he sees; and, i may be wrong, but his power wasnt extended pre-cog like Midnighters battle computer but it still rendered it useless. Spiderman is definetly fast and strong enough to react to what his Spider sense warns him of, so i see no reason his pre-cog-ish Spider sense wouldnt counter and possibly interfere with his Battle computer as Regis mind reading did.

Colt Python is here...close.

"Colt Python is here...close."

lol

Oh with regards to the Psychological warfare, i think Spiderman can avoid and even use it himself. His witty banter and jokes. Whilst telling them he can drown ot the sound of Midnighters voice and just ignore what he says, and he cn use some of his wit to land a few zingers on Midnighter, might piss him off and distract him, he has been shown to be distracted before.

Well, a question with regards to Midnighter deflecting bullets with his staff: Is this really a speed feat? I mean, if he knows the outcome of the fight, and the probability of every move that happens, isn't he just putting his staff where he already knows the bullets are going to go? Isn't that more of a precog feat than a speed feat? In fact, aren't most of his speed feats actually just him knowing where things are going to be before they are? I'm not saying Midnighter\s not faster than human -- I mean, that's obvious. But I don't know if feats like bullet dodging and deflecting are the real proof of it.
"

The door? So does Spiderman get Dr. Strange then?

Has Spider-Man had Dr. Strange implanted in his head for about a decade and has he used him regularly?

Good question and I've thought about it before. I think it's a mix of both, speed and precog. He knows a shot is coming, but still has the speed to move out of the way of the bullet (sometimes after it's fired which shows the speed, but not always). Parrying bullets is the same. He knows they're coming but moving his arms and staff to the right position between the shots of an automatic weapon still takes speed and precision.  If he were just keeping it in the same spot for every shot or if there was only one shot, then it would be nothing but precog, but since he's continuously moving and the bullets aren't in exactly the same place, there's speed coming into play. In the end though I'm not sure it matters if the result is the same.

Spidey IMHO.

Wow. This is a toss up, imo. Sure, Midnighter could predict a million outcomes before a fight even breaks out, but what would he make of Spidey's Spider-sense?

tuff

"The door? So does Spiderman get Dr. Strange then?"

Good fight, but I am going with Spider-Man

I'm going with Midnighter.

"Really stupid..."

i like spidey and i think his spidey sense will off set his computer senario.

Spiderman for the win here

"castleking said:

"i like spidey and i think his spidey sense will off set his computer senario.
"

The Spider-sense has been shown to be easily lead in the wrong direction.I doubt Midnighter's implants won't calculate that."