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#1 Posted by Defiant_Will (1180 posts) - - Show Bio

Mid Tier PYP

@ashrym

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Characters:

  • New 52 Aquaman (5)
  • King Shark (5)

Perks:

  • Nonstandard Gear (2) Poseidon's Trident (Aquaman)
  • Basic Knowledge (2)
  • 30 minutes of prep (1)

VS

@avaliantimge

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Characters:

  • (3) Classic/Modern Toyo Hardra
  • (6) Invincible
  • (1) Archer

Perks:

  • (1) 30 min of prep
  • (2) DP's healing Factor---> Invincible
  • (1) Batman's skill---> Toyo

Rules

  • 10 character points to spend.
  • 5 perk points to spend.
  • No BFR.
  • No time manipulation.
  • No reality warping.
  • Cloning is limited to 10
  • Standard Gear.
  • In Character.
  • Team Work is none a factor, but your team will not have perfect Team Work if they never worked together either.
  • DC Characters are Post Crisis and New 52 composite unless specified.
  • Marvel is modern 616 unless otherwise specified.
  • All movies get canon comic feats with movies unless specified.
  • All Video games get canon comics, and manga feats unless specified.
  • All Manga Characters are manga and anime Composite.
  • All characters are in their (unamped) prime.
  • Win by death, KO, incap.
  • Must have Completed a CaV or Have over 500 Posts to Participate

Setting

Fighters Start 50 Feet Apart
Fighters Start 50 Feet Apart

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#2 Posted by Defiant_Will (1180 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Ashrym (2953 posts) - - Show Bio

@avaliantimge: I will be able to post some time this weekend. Did you want to post first?

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#4 Edited by AValiantImge (368 posts) - - Show Bio

@ashrym: It doesn't matter to me who goes first. I guess whoever puts it up the fastest.

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#5 Posted by Ashrym (2953 posts) - - Show Bio

Opening Post

Aquaman -- Champion of the Gods

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Powers and Abilities

  • superhuman strength
  • superhuman durability
  • superhuman healing factor
  • superhuman speed
  • superhuman reflexes
  • superhuman leaping
  • superhuman senses
  • expert tactician
  • high intellect
  • combat master (trident)
  • magic affinity
  • magic weapon
  • telepathic abilities

Intro

Aquaman is a super-Atlantean. All Atlanteans have superhuman levels of strength, speed, durability, and come from a technological & magical society much more advanced than the rest of the world. Aquaman's hybrid nature unlocked recessive traits granting him physical abilities greater than typical Atlanteans. As a royal Atlantean, he had access to training, education, and equipment not typical of other Atlanteans. He inherited his telepathic abilities from his mother, and was recently shown to be using one of the seven powers of creation -- the life force.

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After the events of Drowned Earth, the ocean chose him as it's champion and washed him ashore to the Unspoken Water, an island where the old sea gods dwell. He washed up with amnesia and it required 3 of the sea gods to force him under the water, starting the process of getting him to remember as well as leading into his great strength.

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Strength and Striking Power

Aquaman is one of the great powerhouses of the DC mythos. Along with Superman and Wonder Woman, he's been stated to be one of the strongest beings on the planet.

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Aquaman has demonstrated such strength he took on the god of strength himself, Hercules. And beat Hercules unconscious in a long difficult battle.

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Those are some of the images from the battle against Hercules and others. It ended in Hercules being knocked unconscious and sealed back into the Labyrinth. The also turned a mountain into beach front property, seen in the first image.

Hercules strength is important here because Aquaman beat Hercules, and we can see Shazam (who had the same strength) put up a fight against Superman and Wonder Woman just before the Forever Evil events.

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Aquaman reinforced his strength as greater than Hercules or Shazam when he ripped apart a wall where Shazam was being held like it was made of paper.

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Aquaman has gone on to be part of a Superman rescue from the mad Kryptonian god Rao along with Wonder Woman and later helped Supes and WW tackle Rao.\

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Aquaman easily impales Rao and tosses him over to Wonder Woman. He also casually reassures Supes it'll be okay because he and WW are there, acting like saving Supes is normal for people like them.

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Aquaman has such tremendous striking power he hit Namma hard enough her physical body exploded into dust and she was forced to create a new body in order to keep fighting. Namma an ancient goddess and mother to the first gods.

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Whether Aquaman is fighting armies of Kryptonians, punching Poseidon hard enough that the shockwave knocks Wonder Woman backwards, dropping someone who just tanked blows from Superman, or punching out the big blue boy scout himself Aquaman consistently demonstrates he can hang with Supes or Wonder Woman when it comes to brute force.

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When Aquaman caught and mostly contained that attack he it was meant to replicate this...

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Catching that is a continent level feat before scaling off of opponents like Superman or Martian Manhunter. Time and again he's been demonstrated to have the physicals to compete with high tier characters.

Durability

Catching the Dead King's continent busting attack doubles as a durability feat because Aquaman was not destroyed in the process.

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Aquaman is clearly capable of taking blows from Martian Manhunter after MMH amped himself up by making extra eyes for the Martian vision and mass increase for even greater strength. Aquaman's superhuman density gives him massive durability against pressure, blunt force attacks, and energy attacks.

The same density does allow for attacks that are high levels of piercing and slashing, or custom designed weapons to affect his physiology. Such attacks typically stop at skin level or barely penetrate skin for superficial damage as the density resists actual penetration.

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Just the touch should have cut him in half. He was barely scratched.

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Aquaman survived the cosmic death kraken. The Kraken destroys all life on a planet by contact. It's strong enough to ignore Superman and continue it's decent, and considered unstoppable. Aquaman has the power of the life force (a comparable force to the speed force). This enabled him to survive and kill the death kraken after flying straight down it's maw.

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Took direct blows from Darkseid and shockwaves such as the one where Darkseid struck Wonder Woman and the one that shattered Hal Jordan's shield.

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Aquaman was brutally pummeled by Karaku the Volcano God (that blow repeated itself over a dozen times). You can see by the bruising on Arthur's face (that did not happen against WW, Supes, MMH, or even Darkseid) that Karaku was hitting harder than Superman level opponents. Aquaman remained conscious after that. Hercules did actually get a mild bit of bruising in, however.

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Aquaman was in a prolonged battle against JL team buster Shaggy Man. Shaggy Man is so powerful is footsteps were misinterpreted as earthquake activity from 80 miles away under water. Aquaman eventually won via BFR, was hospitalized, and pulled a same day recovery leading into the next section.

Aquaman has an extremely high resistance to everything imaginable at this point. I will provide feats as they become relevant in the debate.

Healing Factor

High force or special attack piercing or slashing attacks can overcome Aquaman's high levels of durability. His damage soak is high enough to ignore it while his healing factor quickly overcomes any damage inflicted.

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Poseidon nearly cut Aquaman in half only to have Aquaman get back up seconds later to land that blow with no visible signs of damage.

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Similarly, Namma transformed her arm through Aquaman's shoulder and he was completely healed seconds later.

Speed and Reflexes

Aquaman has demonstrated high hypersonic travel and combat speeds.

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He can easily track and block point blank automatic fire, and blitz the attackers.

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Aquaman demonstrated speed comparable to Wonder Woman and no-speed-force Flash when he destroyed one of John Stewart's constructs before it could attack. Note that the speed of the attack created suction blowing Aquaman's hair into it and even without the speed force Flash is faster than thought. Aquaman was then moving at blur speed towards John Stewart.

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Speed was demonstrated as comparable to blood lusted Wonder Woman again when he fought her to a stand still.

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As you can plainly see, Aquaman has many examples of using super speed and reflexes both in travel and combat, and in or out of water. The examples include throwing his trident fast enough to sonic boom, keep pace with Wonder Woman, part of his four-corners-of-the-world-during-a-single-combat feat (that's a minimum MACH 18 and potentially triple digit MACH speeds, moving faster than any vessel in the Atlantean military can match (they have shown high hypersonic speeds), speed rush chest stab, speed grab pulling Scavenger from his armor, speed dodging, speed blitz punching Ocean master starting on the far side of and down the street a bit, super speed tackle, dodging and deflecting energy, reacting to and dodging Supes superspeed punch while obviously tracking it, dodging an energy attack after it was fired AND super speed leaping to show comparative distances, reacting to and creating ice fast enough to impale Atlantean craft (again, shown to be hypersonic to high hypersonic in speeds), supposedly frozen in time along with Wonder Woman but over the course of the panels they were both clearly moving (I can get more if you need), and clearly reacting to Wonder Woman's attack while super speed counter attacking.

It's more common for Aquaman to use a straight forward speed tackle or trident strike than fancy maneuvers, and he more often than not tanks attacks due to his durability until he discovers they can damage him, but he clearly has hypersonic speed and reflexes.

Note the most of those feats are not in the water. It's a common misconception that Aquaman is faster and stronger in the water. Actual Aquaman lore states he's faster and stronger out of the water due to the lack of pressure and resistance.

Leaping

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The first two images show Aquaman's best surface to air leap. Mera created a low resistance tunnel so he could make a run at it to leap from Atlantis to Iceland throught the stratosphere for an intercontinental leap. He typically leaps and cover miles at a time.

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Aquaman's jumping is so well controlled it's almost the equivalent of flying. Travel speed calcs by leaping (such as Boston harbor to downtown) place such travel speeds in the MACH 5-11 range.

Skill

Aquaman is one of the greatest warriors Atlantis has ever seen, and has been stated by Corum Rath that he doubts any Atlantean could match Arthur. Aquaman's showings against Wonder Woman alone should be enough to cement him in a high tier of combat ability. Additionally, he has simultaneously fought Atlantis's greatest warriors while he was holding back as showing by trying to talk to them and explain the real situation going on.

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Those are examples of taking on Atlantis's greatest warriors at once and facing armies bred solely for war in preparation against Aquaman specifically.

Poseidon's Trident

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Using any trident to block attacks allows Aquaman to substitute it's durability for his while defending himself. This is a very common for him. It's not the real power of Poseidon's trident, however; it's the magical gifts of Poseidon that come with it.

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As you can see by the many examples, the magical abilities are varied and powerful. The trident gives control of the oceans and weather, ability to control land, hurl lightning, generate and manipulate ice, teleport from water to anywhere in the galaxy, disrupt and counter magic, disintegrate a giant building full of enemies Aquaman had frozen in ice first, fly (no speed given so nothing faster than what he already has), open dimensional portals and more. At the height of it's power, Aquaman was able to counter the wellspring powering the existence of the dimension of Thule, which was large enough it supported intergalactic colonization.

One image shows almost instant healing when he was injured as well.

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He also used it to one-shot an entire squad of Kryptonian warriors as powerful as Superman.

Telepathy

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Typically used for summoning armies of sea monsters.

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Other uses included locating a brain for a vulnerable attack, reading the target's sense of self and history, analyzing life down to a nanoscopic level, and scanning for the presence of life.

This is not limited to sea life, but stems from the primitive parts of the mind.

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Aquaman has a natural connection to all life, even when the life force has been stripped from him. The life force is a deeper and stronger connection to all life than mere telepathy.

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Aquaman's life force powers reached across to Earth and Atlantis when Martian Manhunter and Jarro's telepathy failed to cross the same barriers. That's definitive evidence Aquaman's TP is more powerful than MMH's TP. Those powers also rejuvenated the powers of the old sea gods, who answered Aquaman's telepathic call.

Often underestimated, Aquaman is a physical powerhouse and tank, and he has many abilities at his disposal to help him as a champion.

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King Shark -- Best Frenemies

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Powers and Abilities

  • superhuman strength
  • superhuman durability
  • superhuman healing factor
  • superhuman speed
  • superhuman reflexes
  • superhuman senses
  • natural weaponry
  • animal control

Intro

Nanaue has a mysterious origin that is unclear whether it's been retconned in recent years. Originally a villain in Hawaii for Superboy, he was the demigod child of the shark go and a human woman. He's been associated with the Suicide Squad, the Secret Six, the warriors of Atlantis, and the Atlantean criminal underworld. In the new 52 his origins as Nanaue were referenced and later his father had been changed. Since Rebirth, he may be a demigod or one of the lower caste from the ninth triad who naturally mutated from the magic associated with Atlantis.

He has gone from a definite villain to sometimes antihero with groups like the Secret Six and Suicide Squad, and shortly after taking control of the criminal underworld in Atlantis he worked as allies with Aquaman against the tyrant Corum Rath and again against the Suicide Squad.

Strength and Striking

Durability

Same respect thread.

Healing Factor

Speed

This should be enough of an intro for King Shark. He's largely another tank.

Strategy

With the 30 minutes of prep, Aquaman secures the island and make sure there are a lot of sea monsters.

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Aquaman can secure the shores and borders of the United states in under 10 minutes. This gives him plenty of time to use Poseidon's trident and summon a tropical thunder storm with plenty of rain. It also allows for summoning enough sea creatures to secure the island more than 5 times over. My team will start near the water or move there during prep time.

The only member on your team that's any threat is Invincible, and he cannot stand up to the power of the trident. Aquaman can teleport from the ocean to a point behind Invincible and one shot him by trident, then repeat as necessary. King Shark will run distraction or interference should things go sideways, and if there is any trouble with that set up then sea monster attacks will jump in to prevail.

Apologies for the lack of post on King Shark. Internet is acting up here and I was rushing.

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#6 Edited by Ashrym (2953 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by AValiantImge (368 posts) - - Show Bio

@ashrym: nice I'll try to have mine up soon.

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#8 Posted by AValiantImge (368 posts) - - Show Bio

@ashrym

The strongest Psiot, An Emperor and the Infinite

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Toyo Hardra

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psychic Japanese man

TK

No strength feats as he only uses TK

Makes a massive crater and redirects dozens of missiles ( Harbinger #25)

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Slams into a large ship hard enough to nearly tip it over (Imperium #15)

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Sends Peter through multiple skyscrapers collapsing them and makes a massive crater ( Harbinger 1992 #25)

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Someone with Toyo's powers rips apart a aircraft carrier and makes giant exoskeleton out of it (HARD Corps 30)

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Said person receives Toyo's powers

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Speed

As a kid Toyo disintegrates a bullet shot at point blank range ( Harbinger #0)

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Redirects assault rifle fire ( Harbinger Wars #2)

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Invincible

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Half Human Half Vutrimite all brutal

Strength

To get a handle of Invincible's strength I have to go through some explanations and comparisons to other characters

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In issue 12 Invincible's dad punches him into the side of a mountain collapsing it. And much later on arm wrestles his dad and only loses on purpose

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It at the very least shows that Invincible is on par with someone who can send people into mountains. And like how it is implied superior.

But he has his own feats so no need to rely on scaling too much. Invincible early on is able to bench press nearly 400 tons

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And before that possibly lifts an even heavier stone pillar that dwarfs him in size

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To further show off his strength, Invincible slams Conquest into a planet obliterating a mountain

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Then charging around making a mini canyon. So to summarize Invincible at this point in time is about equal to someone who can crush mountains and has the feats to back it up. So basically mountain level. Now let me introduce you to Thragg on of the most powerful characters in the whole series by far. In Mark's first encounter he couldn't even hurt Thragg at best giving him a bloody nose

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Thragg just stomps Invincible, he no sells Mark's blows

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Infact Thragg even stomps both Mark and his dad at the same time

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Even much later on Thragg rips Mark in half with ease

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Again just to summarize Thragg curbstomps people who are easily mountain level. And by the end of the series Invincible is able to fight Thragg on even ground in the gotdamn sun

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Although he did have a bit of help from one of robot's suits providing some defense in the end it melted off (again the sun) and Invincible had to finish the job himself. So by near the EOS Mark was about on par with Thragg meaning he is vastly superior to his old self. In all areas.

Durability

Now for some durability. Invincible is casually nuke level which is a given

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No sells the glassing of Las Vegas

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And as shown before tanks blows from Thragg while his skin is melted off and before the fight moves into the sun. Again Thragg is massively stronger than Omi-man and early Invincible beings who could shatter mountains

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Near the end he's so durable Thragg's vultrimite kids literally break apart by ramming themselves into him

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Speed

As for speed, Mark has that covered as well. Very early on when he was moving into his dorm Invincible moved all of his stuff into his dorm across the city while on the phone with someone all with the person in question not noticing until the end

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Mark moves his stuff to a room across the city in a second flat. Even with this level of speed his Father still massively out speeds him

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Omi-man so fast he can zip to saudi arabia and back in about a second from america.

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Omi-can even blitz's the OG Guardians of the Globe which includes red rush

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Who in turn can run around a city stopping crime , beating people up and saving a cat all in between words easily massively hyper sonic speed there

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And in case you wanna say it was all because of a surprise attack, later on in the "reboot" arc where Mark gets sent back in time to re do things Omni-man fights an unsurprised Guardians of the Globe and tags Red Rush knocking him into Darkwing

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And of course you know where I'm going with this. By near the EOS Invincible fights evenly with Thragg who is superior to Omni-man in every way shape and form. They do have the exact same power set and are of the same race.

But I also do wanna supplement this with more. In all these scans Mark and Omni-man basically attack like speedsters. Doing varies motions and actions at super speed (the dorm feat, tagging other speedsters) this is because Vultrimite speed is linked together. Since CV separates speed into two or three categories being travel speed, reaction speed and combat speed. See Viltrumites experience time dilation when they instantly accelerate

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Meaning they gain the necessary reaction times to function at high speeds. For Vultrimites all three categories of speed are very closely tied together. This is important because Invincible has been shown to fly from one planet to the next across the vastness of space in a single page

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The light from the stars even started to blur which indicates light speed travel. So with time dilation and fast movement speed Invincible can certainly react at the very least light speed.

I have Invincible's stats down no time to move on

Obadiah Archer

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A guy who can copy powers

Since Archer is a one and a street leveler I won't waste time showing his strength or durability just why I chose him. Archer has access to the akashic records the sum of mankind's knowledge, skill and even powers...

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Archer copies the H.A.R.D Corps powers. Which come from an implant in the brain.

Perks

Prep

With 30 min prep time Archer goes ahead and copies Toyo's powers. Which as shown above he has the ability to do so. Now for the real interesting part, Toyo goes ahead and takes over Invincible's body abandoning his weak squishy human body for a strong durable Vultrumite body.

As he is dying Toyo takes over Aric's wife's body and retains his powers ( Timewalker 6)

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And since Mark has no TP resistance this should easy and quick. So now Toyo is now in possession of Mark's body and his own powers to boot.

Deadpool's Healing Factor

Now this should be simple Mark(Now Toyo) has the extremely powerful and potent regeneration of Deadpool. Here ol DP gets turned into a pile of ash from Thor and his healing factor keeps him alive and conscious.

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But if that is a bit "high end" for you DP has plenty of other feats like when he was basically a puddle and regenerated from it

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Vomited out by Cable and still regens

Also despite having a large in his head Deadpool still operates just fine

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And after being impaled by an elephant his is again just fine

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Overall DP's healing factor makes InvinToyo that much harder to kill

Batman's Fighting Skill

It was never specified which Batman's skill I have but in the tourney rules it says

  • DC Characters are Post Crisis and New 52 composite unless specified.

So I'll just be using both PC and New 52 feats just to cover the basis.

In the New 52 Batman is skilled in pressure as here he takes out an opponent he really couldn't harm otherwise with pressure points

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Then in Post-Crisis Batman defeats Prometheus in hand to hand

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Prometheus had to rely on endorphins and tech to get the upper hand when he was defeat in pure h2h skill. Sure Batman defeated him in the end by deleting Prometheus's martial programs and replacing it Stephen Hawking but Batman still hand the upper hand in pure hand to hand even breaking Prometheus's jaw

This is impressive as hell because Prometheus has the skill of thirty of the world's greatest martial artists including Batman's

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And Toyo has Batman's fighting skill who is no in Invincible's body. Its safe to say that Batman is much more skilled than Aquaman.

Overall

Since that was alot I'd like to summarize it.

Toyo Harada is now currently possessing Invincible's body whose physicals by the end are enough to match or be near the level of Thragg who curbstomped early Omi-man and Invincible people who can shatter mountains and move/function at light speed. A body that now has the extremely powerful and potent regen of Deadpool with the powers of Toyo and the skill of Batman. Archer basically amps himself by coping Toyo's powers so he won't be totally useless. Now this battle isn't as simple as you'd like it to be, Aquaman can't one shot InvinToyo due to DP's healing factor and with Toyo's Tk can move the fight anywhere he wishes. Archer can interface and support InvinToyo. Between InvinToyo's physicals, tk, healing factor and skill I don't see Aqauman or King Shark coming out on top.

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#9 Posted by Ashrym (2953 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by Ashrym (2953 posts) - - Show Bio

@avaliantimge:

Rebuttals re team abilities

In my opener, I gave continent level feats plus scaling off of Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, and Shazam / Hercules. Toyo's best feat given is the aircraft carrier and that wasn't even Toyo, Invincible has mountain level feats, and Archer has Toyo's feats at best but better combat. King Shark scales off of Aquaman and Superboy for the most part but that's some pretty high level of strength and durability.

King Shark has bitten through Superboy's TK shields that have held up to Supergirl's attacks. He can also survive a city level explosion,stop a train, launch Jon Kent to the center of the moon, smack a Superman with two passenger planes, and lift a palace. Atlanteans can be a bit much for him, however. It doesn't help your argument that Superboy uses tactile TK and the only difference between that and Toyo is range; and Superboy's is more powerful.

Toyo with the occasional bullet sensing speeds isn't even close to Aquaman or King Shark. More on Invincible below.

But he has his own feats so no need to rely on scaling too much. Invincible early on is able to bench press nearly 400 tons

That's nothing compared to Aquaman's feats. He throws this Russian nuclear subout of the ocean. That's a 50000 ton vessel even before the unimaginably impressive calc that would add water pressure and drag coefficient to the feat. We need to remember that every feat under water is far, far more impressive than the same feat outside of the water. Even the DCEU's live action sub feat calcs out to over 500000 tons after adding in the water column above it (it's still an outlier, however and only mentioned to illustrate what water feats really mean).

When I see Toyo rocking a ship that Aquaman can casually lift it just isn't impressive.

Then charging around making a mini canyon. So to summarize Invincible at this point in time is about equal to someone who can crush mountains and has the feats to back it up. So basically mountain level. Now let me introduce you to Thragg on of the most powerful characters in the whole series by far. In Mark's first encounter he couldn't even hurt Thragg at best giving him a bloody nose

...

Thragg just stomps Invincible, he no sells Mark's blows

...

Again just to summarize Thragg curbstomps people who are easily mountain level. And by the end of the series Invincible is able to fight Thragg on even ground in the gotdamn sun

That doesn't mean Invincible's strength has increased beyond the weights given or mountain level striking power. It means his combat skill improved after he became more experienced. What you would need to demonstrate is actual striking power. Even if it turned out he was twice as strong as Invincible that still 2+ mountains and well below the feats I provided in comparison.

Ultimately, continents > countries > mountain ranges > mountains. Aquaman's feats >>>> Invincible's feats before scaling.

Invincible's durability < Darkseid or Rao. You have not denied that Aquaman's trident bypasses Invincible's durability (which it obviously does) so I'll get back to that when debunking your strategy.

This is important because Invincible has been shown to fly from one planet to the next across the vastness of space in a single page

...

The light from the stars even started to blur which indicates light speed travel. So with time dilation and fast movement speed Invincible can certainly react at the very least light speed.

The problem is that he can do that in space. That doesn't mean he can do it in an atmosphere. This is true for the same reason feats in water are more impressive than feats in the air. Feats in the air beat feats in a vacuum because of atmospheric pressure and drag coefficient. In space, he also has the relative perspective of distance instead of the rush of up close objects to deal with. The fact he isn't leaving fire streaks everywhere he goes indicates he's not even moving fast enough to cause burn like we would see on reentry.

It's also no different than Superman doing the same thing, I and demonstrated both Aquaman and King Shark with Superman. This version of Aquaman has fought Superman level opponents with solid showings many times now, and that scales better than what Invincible can accomplish.

Rebuttal re perks and strategy

It's more like perks and tragedy, tbh. There's some fatal flaws going on that will cost you.

Deadpool's regeneration protects him from psionic manipulation because his brain is in a constant state of regeneration. Giving Invincible Deadpool's regeneration also gives him Deadpool's TP protection. That means Toyo isn't trading his body in for Invincible. There is another huge flaw in your strategy.

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It's not Deadpool's regeneration that keeps him from dying regardless of insane damage. It's because he's been cursed to never die. Invincible may have Deadpool's regen but that doesn't include his immortality and even with impressive regen he'll be damaged to the point of death or temporary incapacitation at the very least from Poseidon's trident couple with a disintegration attack.

Your entire strategy is flawed. Toyo cannot take a better body and Deadpool regen will not prevent death. Toyo also cannot take my team because Aquaman can boot him out. Chimera is a world level telepath.

It's also not safe to say Batman is more skilled than Aquaman as if that would matter here given the difference in physicals.

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Aquaman scales off of Wonder Woman. He's not better, but he's comparable enough to give her a solid fight. She is plenty skilled enough to prove it. She could fight Faora and Zod at the same time. I demonstrated earlier that Aquaman has taken on armies of warriors bred and trained with the sole purpose of fight him. That was from thousands of years of prep over a prophesy. I already demonstrated he could take on the best Atlantis could come up with at the same time. Corum Rath stated none could match him.

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Corum Rath stated he doubted anyone in Atlantis could match Aquaman. Aquaman demonstrated it as well.

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Those were elite guards and members of the drift. They were first amped by magic from the Silent School and then again by the Abyssal Dark, making them the best fighters as well as super Atlantean level physicals.

Aquaman easily disarms Chesire and once he admits to not holding back anymore, stomps. Cheshire is regarded as the most dangerous woman alive by both the Operative (a special agent who's in his sixties and still active) and the narrator.

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It turned out she is vastly inferior to his level of skill.

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He is so skilled he can break he grip of the world's greatest melee fighter when she's behind him with leverage. Batman level martial arts aren't enough to compensate for any small skill gap that might exist when so far he's shown vastly superior physicals.

Thoughts

The only solid benefit you have is Invincible's durability and Poseidon's trident will bypass that. Your strategy has a big wrench in it because Invincible will be protected from Toyo's plans. Toyo seems to pick easy targets for that ability anyway, otherwise there would have been better choices than the one in your example.

Both of my characters are revitalized by the rain storm created in my prep to give them more than enough lasting power for this fight.

You failed to respond to my army of sea monsters. Topo is enough. He's this big.

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That little spec on the behemoth the kraken is tearing apart is Aquaman. The behemoth was beyond Aquaman's physicals, scaling his summon up way beyond his physicals too.

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The funny thing about Aquaman's sharks is they get pretty big.

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Those sharks dwarf Manta's sub, and they are no-selling toxic water that erodes any metal. Aquaman is no-selling it too, of course. Those sharks also no-sold torpedoes that were damaging the fortress of doom, which could withstand that pressure and erosion.

Aquaman spent his prep time securing the entire island with marine based life. The time allowed him to gain the best creatures available instead of what is simply in the area at the time. The best creatures are extremely durable and powerful. It was a huge mistake to ignore that kind of an army. Between that and issue with your strategy, I cannot see you possibly winning this.

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#11 Posted by AValiantImge (368 posts) - - Show Bio

@ashrym: noice will try to reply today or tomorrow if not Monday by the latest.

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#12 Posted by AValiantImge (368 posts) - - Show Bio
Please excuse my bad attempt at the
Please excuse my bad attempt at the "I sleep" meme

Post 2

Toyo's TK

King Shark has bitten through Superboy's TK shields that have held up to Supergirl's attacks. He can also survive a city level explosion,stop a train, launch Jon Kent to the center of the moon, smack a Superman with two passenger planes, and lift a palace. Atlanteans can be a bit much for him, however. It doesn't help your argument that Superboy uses tactile TK and the only difference between that and Toyo is range; and Superboy's is more powerful.

For what Toyo lacks in raw power he makes for up in precision and control. Here he rips out someone's brain ( Blood and the H.A.R.D Corps #15)

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And Casually pops someone's head ( Imperium #10)

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But more impressively he can use his Tk to disintegrate people

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Toyo can straight up infinity war people and even Disintegrates a cold fusion reactor with a wave of his hand (Imperium #6)

And this is on the atomic level since from Valiant's official website they list of his powers as being to control matter

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So although Toyo doesn't have the raw power can attack internally with tk disintegrating Aquaman or King Shark's insides. Not even limited to their internal organs Toyo can go ahead and attack their brains with tk even a little of damage would massively impair Aquaman or Ks since you haven't shown them regenerating from brain damage. Which Archer can do as well since he copied Toyo powers.

Toyo with the occasional bullet sensing speeds isn't even close to Aquaman or King Shark. More on Invincible below.

Although he doesn't have much in terms of active defense as a kid when powers first activated his shields take a nuke. Toyo didn't know what was happening yet his powers activate fast enough to shield himself after a nuke after it had gone off.

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Invincible's strength

That's nothing compared to Aquaman's feats. He throws this Russian nuclear subout of the ocean. That's a 50000 ton vessel even before the unimaginably impressive calc that would add water pressure and drag coefficient to the feat. We need to remember that every feat under water is far, far more impressive than the same feat outside of the water. Even the DCEU's live action sub feat calcs out to over 500000 tons after adding in the water column above it (it's still an outlier, however and only mentioned to illustrate what water feats really mean).

When I see Toyo rocking a ship that Aquaman can casually lift it just isn't impressive.

Thats why I said early Invincible at that point of the series it wasn't even half way over. Invincible has grown immensely stronger over the years and would curbstomp his younger self. Especially since EOS Mark is a 500 year old Vultrimite emperor. Mark and his much weaker bother Oliver lift and throw half of a space ship that is easily bigger than an aircraft carrier into space

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But of course lifting doesn't really matter.

That doesn't mean Invincible's strength has increased beyond the weights given or mountain level striking power. It means his combat skill improved after he became more experienced. What you would need to demonstrate is actual striking power. Even if it turned out he was twice as strong as Invincible that still 2+ mountains and well below the feats I provided in comparison.

Being more experienced doesn't stop someone whose so much stronger than you that they rip you in half like wet tissue paper.

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Omni-Man has his hands break punching Thragg that's how much more durable and stronger his is than Omni-man

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Thragg uses his arms as spears to impale and slice through Omni-man

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No amount of experience is going to make up for a gap in physicals that large. His blows actually deal decent damage to Thragg unlike Omni-man

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Of course there's also Robot whose suits tanked Invincible's blows which are a massive upgrade from his old suits that Mark one shots. Even his best blows don't damage them. Although it is implied Invincible can break them down he isn't doing so in one shot.

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After his fight with Thragg Invincible breaks through robot's suits in one shot

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Showing just how much Invincible has grown in strength. As he can now one shot things he couldn't before.

Ultimately, continents > countries > mountain ranges > mountains. Aquaman's feats >>>> Invincible's feats before scaling

Invincible has more feats. He slams Allen into the moon making an impact that almost spreads over the curvature of the moon when Mark was absolute scrub.

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Or when Invincible and the Tick knock a moon out of orbit and onto Mars.

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And of course the infamous Viltrimite planet busting feat

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Now there is context so I'll explain the best I can. Mark, Omni-man and Thaedus follow Space Racer's projectile into the planet blowing it up. Space Racer's gun was only used to destabilize the core and the gun shoots a fist sized projectile

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Bascially an indestructible projectile that can punch through "anything"

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So the three followed the projectile as it left a fist sized tunnel through the planet.

Although it is a shared feat split three ways it is still impressive. And the three tanked the explosion afterwards

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Aaaaand Thragg blitzes and rips off Thaedus's head

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One of the three that busted the planet.. ....

Invincible's durability < Darkseid or Rao. You have not denied that Aquaman's trident bypasses Invincible's durability (which it obviously does) so I'll get back to that when debunking your strategy.

Piercing damage is healed off with DP's healing factor.

It's also no different than Superman doing the same thing, I and demonstrated both Aquaman and King Shark with Superman. This version of Aquaman has fought Superman level opponents with solid showings many times now, and that scales better than what Invincible can accomplish.

The thing is knocking Superman away isn't equivalent of doing actual damage. Mark could make Thragg bleed by the nose with a punch but was still below so much so that Thragg could rip him in half like paper and has. Aquman hasn't done actual substantial damage to Superman. For scaling I'd say Invincible does better, remember the robot suit/drones? Well when Mark and Thragg fought Robot sent a suit to help out Mark and not even Thragg could one shot the suit despite his best blows

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The suit only went away after it was melted off the freaking sun. Thragg the same guy who impales Omni-man and rips off Theadus's head people who can ram through planets after the core's been de-stabilized and tank the resulting explosion. Yet Invincible can, showing how much stronger he's gotten.

Invincible's speed

The problem is that he can do that in space. That doesn't mean he can do it in an atmosphere. This is true for the same reason feats in water are more impressive than feats in the air. Feats in the air beat feats in a vacuum because of atmospheric pressure and drag coefficient. In space, he also has the relative perspective of distance instead of the rush of up close objects to deal with. The fact he isn't leaving fire streaks everywhere he goes indicates he's not even moving fast enough to cause burn like we would see on reentry.

Invincible can fly that fast on earth, he flys faster than Cecil's teleportation.

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Cecil only has to step forward through a door yet Invincible speeds away

And later Invincible's fight with Thragg is so fast that satellites can't track it

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Orbital satellite are five minutes behind their high speed fight

There is also the scan where Omni-man flies from america to saudi Arabia and back in about a second

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Mark didn't even finish chewing his first bite of the hot dog. The distance from Washington(It was unknown where mark and omi-man where so I'll assume east coast capital city) to Saudi Arabia is 6736 miles and Omni-man did a round trip which comes out to 13472 miles. All before Mark finished his first bite. 13472 miles per second goes out to mach 63,210 those speeds blow re-entry out of the water and yet Omni-man didn't light on fire.

The thing is Invincible holds back alot on earth

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But when he wants to he outspeeds an ftl space ship and searches the earth for signs of the vultrimites without stopping

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Despite being close to earth Invincible accelerates faster than the ship and slows down as soon as he enters Earth's atmosphere. Showing that time dilation at work.

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Deadpool's regen

Deadpool's regeneration protects him from psionic manipulation because his brain is in a constant state of regeneration. Giving Invincible Deadpool's regeneration also gives him Deadpool's TP protection. That means Toyo isn't trading his body in for Invincible. There is another huge flaw in your strategy. It's not Deadpool's regeneration that keeps him from dying regardless of insane damage. It's because he's been cursed to never die. Invincible may have Deadpool's regen but that doesn't include his immortality and even with impressive regen he'll be damaged to the point of death or temporary incapacitation at the very least from Poseidon's trident couple with a disintegration attack.

Your simultaneously arguing that Invincible has DP's regen and doesn't at the same time. Picking and choosing what applies and doesn't . Invincible has DP's healing factor and all the feats that come along with it, simple as that really. And Deadpool is more so protected against mind reading due to how messed up his mind is

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So really its a combination of regenerating brain cells and a crazy mind. Invincible only has half of that. Also Toyo isn't gonna be mind reading or "mind raping" he's going to take over Invincible's body.

Your entire strategy is flawed. Toyo cannot take a better body and Deadpool regen will not prevent death. Toyo also cannot take my team because Aquaman can boot him out. Chimera is a world level telepath.

Expect it really isn't when Deadpool hasn't resisted having his body taken over and because this is Mark not DP. Stabbing won't overtax DP's healing by a long shot even if its a brain stab. And Toyo wouldn't want Aquaman's body when he can have a much stronger, durable, faster body with a stupidly good healing factor.

Batman's skill

It's also not safe to say Batman is more skilled than Aquaman as if that would matter here given the difference in physicals.

It very much is, safe to say. Batman has grappled Wonder Woman to ground before in JLA Secret Files issue 3

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Wonder Woman had to use her strength advantage to get Batman off her. Although it was a training session it should speak volumes at Batman's skill. And Here I have the advantage of scaling off Post-Crisis Wonder Woman.

Aquaman scales off of Wonder Woman. He's not better, but he's comparable enough to give her a solid fight. She is plenty skilled enough to prove it. She could fight Faora and Zod at the same time. I demonstrated earlier that Aquaman has taken on armies of warriors bred and trained with the sole purpose of fight him. That was from thousands of years of prep over a prophesy. I already demonstrated he could take on the best Atlantis could come up with at the same time. Corum Rath stated none could match him.

Corum Rath stated he doubted anyone in Atlantis could match Aquaman. Aquaman demonstrated it as well.

Those were elite guards and members of the drift. They were first amped by magic from the Silent School and then again by the Abyssal Dark, making them the best fighters as well as super Atlantean level physicals.

But actually how skilled are those Atlanteans? Batman matches karate kid in zero g

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And I feel like your underestimating the feat against Prometheus, the man had 30 of world's best martial artists skill including Batman's himself and more than likely Wonder Woman. And yet Batman still beat the piss outta him breaking his jaw and making him rely on adrenaline and tasers to get the upper hand. Aqua-man hasn't face anyone that skilled.

Aquaman easily disarms Chesire and once he admits to not holding back anymore, stomps. Cheshire is regarded as the most dangerous woman alive by both the Operative (a special agent who's in his sixties and still active) and the narrator.

Chesire is a street lever, Aquaman is high mid tier to low high tier he massively outstats her in every way shape and form of course he would.

He is so skilled he can break he grip of the world's greatest melee fighter when she's behind him with leverage. Batman level martial arts aren't enough to compensate for any small skill gap that might exist when so far he's shown vastly superior physicals.

Batman's more skilled than Prometheus someone who more than likely has WW skill downloaded and Batman has done the same thing. With vastly superior skill and physicals AND a extremely potent healing factor Aquman's pooch is screwed.

Thoughts

The only solid benefit you have is Invincible's durability and Poseidon's trident will bypass that. Your strategy has a big wrench in it because Invincible will be protected from Toyo's plans. Toyo seems to pick easy targets for that ability anyway, otherwise there would have been better choices than the one in your example.

Invincible's higher strength, speed and durability are all very very solid benefits. DP's healing shrugs off any piecing damage with casual ease. Invincible isn't protected and Toyo takes over his body simple as that.

Both of my characters are revitalized by the rain storm created in my prep to give them more than enough lasting power for this fight.

Quantifiablely by how much? Enough to come by having their brain's be disintegrated at the molecular/atomic level while InvinToyo punches them in the face with a force much stronger than even Thragg could muster?

You failed to respond to my army of sea monsters. Topo is enough. He's this big.

Thing is much weaker Vutrimites have one shotted massive sea monsters.

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Its so large it completely dwarfs a large cruise liner. That tiny spec in the second scan is Anissa.

That little spec on the behemoth the kraken is tearing apart is Aquaman. The behemoth was beyond Aquaman's physicals, scaling his summon up way beyond his physicals too.

Since Invincible is also way beyond Aquaman's physicals that doesn't mean much.

The funny thing about Aquaman's sharks is they get pretty big.Those sharks dwarf Manta's sub, and they are no-selling toxic water that erodes any metal. Aquaman is no-selling it too, of course. Those sharks also no-sold torpedoes that were damaging the fortress of doom, which could withstand that pressure and erosion. Aquaman spent his prep time securing the entire island with marine based life. The time allowed him to gain the best creatures available instead of what is simply in the area at the time. The best creatures are extremely durable and powerful. It was a huge mistake to ignore that kind of an army. Between that and issue with your strategy, I cannot see you possibly winning this.

The thing about the army is that InvinToyo can fly as can Archer. They can move the fight into the sky way above the water and away from the sea monsters. If Aquman is in the air whats stopping InvinToyo or Archer from simply keeping him in the air with TK? Aquaman can't fly so he has no way to actually move if suspended in the air. He can fail his arms and legs around all he wants with nothing to push off of he might as well be in space same goes for King Shark. . Sure restraining his arms and legs isn't possible but simply lifting him up isn't a problem. Aquaman doesn't weigh alot. Archer can keep Aquama and King Shark in the air while InvinToyo starts to slam them with his best hits and using his own TK to shred their insides.

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#13 Posted by AValiantImge (368 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Edited by Ashrym (2953 posts) - - Show Bio

@avaliantimge:

Sorry for the late reply.

In Response

There seems to be something seriously off with your arguments that I want to address immediately as I start this reply. I opened with a continent level feat from Aquaman and you replied with a 400 ton feat, plus some scaling that was not quantifiable. In my second post, I included scaling off of Superboy with this image clearly showing Superboy throwing an opponent through the outer layers of the moon to an molten core. You responded in your replies with this...

Invincible has more feats. He slams Allen into the moon making an impact that almost spreads over the curvature of the moon when Mark was absolute scrub.

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Or when Invincible and the Tick knock a moon out of orbit and onto Mars.

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And of course the infamous Viltrimite planet busting feat

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Now there is context so I'll explain the best I can. Mark, Omni-man and Thaedus follow Space Racer's projectile into the planet blowing it up. Space Racer's gun was only used to destabilize the core and the gun shoots a fist sized projectile

That moon impact is nowhere nearly as impressive is Superboy throwing someone into the moon's core through the surface. Knocking the moon out of orbit with the Tick is better but also a shared feat and I'm not convinced it beats the continent feat I provided. The "planet busting" feat might be impressive but the issue I see there is the three of them essentially finished off a destablized planet, making it hard to quantify. Later in your post, you added this...

Since Invincible is also way beyond Aquaman's physicals that doesn't mean much.

How did you ever come to that conclusion by posting weaker feats than I had posted, scaling Mark against himself earlier and later by benchmarking off a character without giving quantifiable feats, and listing shared feats (with context) where it becomes difficult to determine what Mark actually did? That's before even looking at the character for whom I gave battles from which to scale. The only conclusion you seem to be providing evidence for is that Mark was stronger later than he was earlier and somehow misapplying that to being stronger than Aquaman.

Aquaman scales off of Superman level characters. They have had several battles and we have that consistency where Aquaman has the physicals to face off against Superman level characters, at least for a bit. Superman can easily be shown as a planet buster; not shared and not needing context.

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Superman kicked off from that planet so hard in his attempt to get to the stars he shattered it without anything to destabilize it, or using momentum flying in from space, or help, or anything else like that. He's Superman. Invincible is not in Superman's league or anywhere near it. Again, that is the level Aquaman scales to in his battles. Of course, you also had this to say...

The thing is knocking Superman away isn't equivalent of doing actual damage. Mark could make Thragg bleed by the nose with a punch but was still below so much so that Thragg could rip him in half like paper and has. Aquman hasn't done actual substantial damage to Superman.

You seem to have confused this...

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with this...

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Vulko is an older scholar, and he's fast and strong enough to "knock Superman away". In the image above those two, Supe's eyes are closed and he looks unconscious. That took place before the Atlantean armies even rose from the oceans during Throne of Atlantis. It took 24 panels and two scene changes before Superman was able to return to the fight. At which point Superman needed to catch up and ask questions.

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Clearly well after the battle started. There is a huge time gap from the point Aquaman punches Superman out of the scenario and when Superman finally returns. He was either unconscious, knocked so far away it took that long to get back, or a combination of both to add up to such a long absence. This battle is similar too...

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That blow where the shockwaves are tearing up the ground sure look like it hurt. Mera is clearly capable of knocking Superman farther than Vulko did. In that third image, Superman is dazed enough is not even blocking, dodging, or getting counter-attacks in; he's simply getting smacked around hard. Now, Aquaman is not Superman. But he is in Wonder Woman's ballpark to the point he does do damage to Superman with his striking power. He's also far stronger and faster than any other Atlantean after his hybrid nature unlocked thousands of years old genetic features, which is why he strikes so much harder than other Atlanteans, who can clearly knock Superman back. You don't even need to take my word for it. This is one of several interviews that were done around that fight, so in case you decide to continue trying to lowball or discredit those feats, keep this in mind...

DA: I think the handling of that scene originated with a face-to-face conversation I had with Geoff Johns before we even got into the scripting, about that confrontation being a really important thing to do because of what it says about Aquaman. We wouldn’t have considered doing that if we hadn’t thought it would be an even enough fight for neither one of them to seem like a bully. I think Aquaman’s power level, and Mera’s certainly, are often underestimated.

and

I don’t think either of us is suggesting that Aquaman outclasses Superman, but he certainly can hold his own. I think he’s possibly the most likely member of the Justice League --- with the exception of Wonder Woman --- who can go toe-to-toe like that and stand even a chance of soaking it up and doing some damage.

Any argument you have where you are trying to claim Aquaman wasn't doing damage is nothing more than head-canon. No that that's settled, moving on to other points.

Toyo can straight up infinity war people and even Disintegrates a cold fusion reactor with a wave of his hand (Imperium #6)

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The wave of his hand is holding the TK bubble. The reactor is disintegrating more slowling in the background.

And this is on the atomic level since from Valiant's official website they list of his powers as being to control matter

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So although Toyo doesn't have the raw power can attack internally with tk disintegrating Aquaman or King Shark's insides. Not even limited to their internal organs Toyo can go ahead and attack their brains with tk even a little of damage would massively impair Aquaman or Ks since you haven't shown them regenerating from brain damage. Which Archer can do as well since he copied Toyo powers.

Those internal attacks were clearly not being used on characters as durable as Aquaman or King Shark, both of whom benefit from massive body density multipliers as part of their physiological adapation. Controlling matter doesn't mean controlling it on the atomic level. The write up you gave is to bend steel and stop bullets, and the images so far haven't demonstrated that level of ability. It's also a bit "neck feats" to assume they don't have fast healing all around, especially since the high durability precludes having needed to demonstrate it in the past. I can think of a few examples, however.

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King Shark was being bomb controlled with bombs that would atomize him and the entire room around him. They were detonated while he was wearing them and destroyed an undersea military complex the size of a small town. Everyone assumed he was destroyed but instead he survived it and was able to leave the area before Superboy could get there to look for his body. The other two images are using Resurrection Man. They show King Shark eating Resurrection Man and the energy could be seen coming out his eyes that had gone in through his mouth. The final image is how Resurrection Man creates new bodies out of existing materials around him, which would include the inside of King Shark's head.

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These images demonstrated that Shaggyman had squeezed Aquaman's head hard enough blood started to run out his mouth. There was an obvious concussion at minimum in that fight, and likely with Karaku too. Those healed quickly.

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Just a reminder of how powerful Shaggyman is.

Aquaman virtually never demonstrates damage to such an area because of his durability. He does, however, demonstrate resistance to attacks to change him.

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Aquaman Tyde's transforming water that affected the rest of the planet, and the transformation of the Otherness that turned people into Deadwaters. The Otherness turned out to be a psionic sentient ocean planet.

Regarding Invincible's speed, some of those look fast but aren't quantifiable or get back to my earlier comment about taking place in space.

Mark didn't even finish chewing his first bite of the hot dog. The distance from Washington(It was unknown where mark and omi-man where so I'll assume east coast capital city) to Saudi Arabia is 6736 miles and Omni-man did a round trip which comes out to 13472 miles. All before Mark finished his first bite. 13472 miles per second goes out to mach 63,210 those speeds blow re-entry out of the water and yet Omni-man didn't light on fire.

The fast he didn't light on fire simply means the fan-calcs are wrong. And it's still pointless when Aquaman has managed against Superman with such speeds. I could wank that right up with the moon rebuilding feat if I wanted to push it. The fact is, Aquaman is high hypersonic at deep pressures as his lowest measurement, faster outside of water, and has shown the reflexes where his speed is relevant against Superman and Wonder Woman even though both are faster characters. Aquaman also has clear combat speed as shown. And before you try to lowball that one too...

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Atlanteans are used to the pressure and resistance of the water. That image is Garth and Donna Troy. What it demonstrates is that too much speed or force can throw an Atlantean off balance, so such speed and force is used deliberately as opposed to carelessly. That's why Aquaman shows speed and reflexes but does not always apply the speed out of the water when he's hard to hurt anyway.

Cecil only has to step forward through a door yet Invincible speeds away

Cecil doesn't look fast.

Also, for all this speed being shown, I don't see it in a tropical storm? How are Invincible's senses for navigating such?

Your simultaneously arguing that Invincible has DP's regen and doesn't at the same time. Picking and choosing what applies and doesn't . Invincible has DP's healing factor and all the feats that come along with it, simple as that really. And Deadpool is more so protected against mind reading due to how messed up his mind is

Not at all. Deadpool has been specifically stated (as shown) to have protection against telepathy because of his regeneration. Having additional protection from being messed in the head is irrelevant because it doesn't preclude the demonstrated regeneration protection. You would be the one cherry picking what applies and what doesn't, not me.

The problem is that some of the feats you want to come with it are dependent on another factor -- Thanos Curse. Deadpool's regeneration isn't what keeps him alive. Without that curse, Invincible could die or become incapacitated. The regeneration is good, but it's not going to guarantee a win by any stretch.

Expect it really isn't when Deadpool hasn't resisted having his body taken over and because this is Mark not DP. Stabbing won't overtax DP's healing by a long shot even if its a brain stab. And Toyo wouldn't want Aquaman's body when he can have a much stronger, durable, faster body with a stupidly good healing factor.

And because it's Deadpool's regeneration that also provides protection from telepathy as demonstrated Toyo cannot take over Mark's body. That's just a fact. Also, brainstab and some godsmack levels of magical abilities for additional damage, repeatedly for mush, maybe twist it around through a few eyesockets and a beheading. Aquaman's trident bypasses the durability easily.

Also, I went through that stronger etc body above. You clearly have not demonstrated that to be the case at all.

Chesire is a street lever, Aquaman is high mid tier to low high tier he massively outstats her in every way shape and form of course he would.

He does but the writer's intent was obviously to demonstrate his skill by the dialogue.

It very much is, safe to say. Batman has grappled Wonder Woman to ground before in JLA Secret Files issue 3

Batman has plenty of wankpower, sure. Hell, he's even saved Superman from a mini black hole.

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If I believed every batwank pic out there I'd have to be pretty gullible. This image is part of a longer sequence showing Wonder Woman's caliber as described by Black Canary (another top tier martial artist) in which Canary didn't know if Diana let her score a strike or if someone of Wonder Woman's caliber had actually given her an opening with an unexpected mistake; ie luck. TBH, all your images showed was Batman successfully pulling off a sneak attack.

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Bats doesn't stand a chance against her in a fair fight even with the Justice Buster armor. Trickery was his only way to go. Even if he could score a strike, that doesn't make him better; just good enough to be relevant.

But actually how skilled are those Atlanteans? Batman matches karate kid in zero g

The greatest warriors from an ancient warrior race? Or the one's from Thule that were bred and trained to face Aquaman specifically with a few centuries of prep? No, those were the special forces for the ancient warrior race... Those are accolades by themselves, and he's still skilled enough vs WW. Batman's skill cannot possibly exceed his by enough to make the difference you think. Matching Karate Kid is zero G doesn't mean a thing unless you are demonstrating Karate Kid is more skilled than Wonder Woman or Aquaman, and all that image really shows is that Karate Kid was similarly skilled to Batman.

And I feel like your underestimating the feat against Prometheus, the man had 30 of world's best martial artists skill including Batman's himself and more than likely Wonder Woman. And yet Batman still beat the piss outta him breaking his jaw and making him rely on adrenaline and tasers to get the upper hand. Aqua-man hasn't face anyone that skilled.

"and more than likely Wonder Woman" is speculation. It's wild speculation because if he was using Wonder Woman's skill he would have kicked Batman's ass. Aquaman has faced someone that skilled. Her name is Wonder Woman. He also handled Murc, who was the best of the drift and royal guard, protected Orm from the Deep Six, and was the sole survivor of some fire trial. I would have to look for that reference and find it if you want. As I said originally, his repeated showings against Wonder Woman is enough to set his skill level.

Thoughts

A few things here.

Invincible's higher strength, speed and durability are all very very solid benefits. DP's healing shrugs off any piecing damage with casual ease. Invincible isn't protected and Toyo takes over his body simple as that.

I gave scans that disagree with you. Simple as that.

Quantifiablely by how much? Enough to come by having their brain's be disintegrated at the molecular/atomic level while InvinToyo punches them in the face with a force much stronger than even Thragg could muster?

Thragg isn't near Superman, or the opponents more powerful than Superman, so the punches in the faces mean little. The molecular / atomic level wasn't really demonstrated but resistance to that level of manipulation was as well as healing from the damage. A bigger problem is the attacks from the trident still.

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Waller would keep King Shark dehydrated deliberately to control him. That made him slow and unintelligent. The second image shows one dip in the ocean reverses that. The third breaks mind control with a splash. The last demonstrates it was common enough they would go for water for King Shark as a tactic. The rain storm is more for him because he's more affected by dehydration and faster.

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One splash is all it takes for Aquaman, too. He was worn out after a long battle, tricked Mad Hercules, and then fresh as fresh can be.

Thing is much weaker Vutrimites have one shotted massive sea monsters.

Its so large it completely dwarfs a large cruise liner. That tiny spec in the second scan is Anissa.

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Those subs are about 450' long. As you can see, just Topo's head is about that wide and longer, and looks like it's bigger than a city block here. That's the small piece. Claiming to have one shot massive sea monsters is a false equivalence. These are Kaiju that grew to become ancient protectors of Atlantis. The Karaqan is was drove the volcano god Karaku to the hidden dimension of Pacifica as an example. They are extremely resistant to damage, highly intelligent, and burn with internal fire or energy that consumes them if they die. They will live thousands of years. Topo has high hypersonic speeds and such too. More serpents and more kraken and more monsters creates overwhelming numbers as an advantage.

Since Invincible is also way beyond Aquaman's physicals that doesn't mean much.

Except he's not.

The thing about the army is that InvinToyo can fly as can Archer. They can move the fight into the sky way above the water and away from the sea monsters. If Aquman is in the air whats stopping InvinToyo or Archer from simply keeping him in the air with TK? Aquaman can't fly so he has no way to actually move if suspended in the air. He can fail his arms and legs around all he wants with nothing to push off of he might as well be in space same goes for King Shark. . Sure restraining his arms and legs isn't possible but simply lifting him up isn't a problem. Aquaman doesn't weigh alot. Archer can keep Aquama and King Shark in the air while InvinToyo starts to slam them with his best hits and using his own TK to shred their insides.

The obvious counter to that is Aquaman and King Shark stay deep in the water, far away from the open air. And continues to control the wind, and storms, and lightning, and ice, and earth, and water, and teleports... and flies like I mentioned in my opening post. He's got Poseidon's trident.

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We don't have a solid flight speed because he was teleporting everywhere.

The Reality

Basically, you came into the match with your strategy. That strategy was to have Toyo attack Mark. The attack was a telepathic attack and, unfortunately as I pointed out, doomed to failure because Deadpool's healing factor protects him from telepathic attacks by constantly regenerating his brain. That means Mark is going to fight Toyo during your prep in response to that attack. Your team will be down Toyo or Mark for the encounter because of the error in your planning.

Aquaman has the speed and power to one-shot blitz Archer or Toyo. He has the power to injure and pour on disintegration attacks to Mark to incap him long enough for a win, probably kill him because Mark doesn't have Deadpool's immortality.

The entire area is blanketed in tropic storm to create visibility issues for your team and water everywhere for mine. The island is surrounded by sea monsters and if you want to win you cannot simply hide in sky because I can just hide in the water.

Team frenemies has this.

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#15 Posted by AValiantImge (368 posts) - - Show Bio

Post 3

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Invincible's physicals

There seems to be something seriously off with your arguments that I want to address immediately as I start this reply. I opened with a continent level feat from Aquaman and you replied with a 400 ton feat, plus some scaling that was not quantifiable. In my second post, I included scaling off of Superboy with this image clearly showing Superboy throwing an opponent through the outer layers of the moon to an molten core. You responded in your replies with this...

That moon impact is nowhere nearly as impressive is Superboy throwing someone into the moon's core through the surface. Knocking the moon out of orbit with the Tick is better but also a shared feat and I'm not convinced it beats the continent feat I provided.

The Moon Tick and Mark knocked into Mars is the same size as Earth's moon

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And considering Mars's moons are pretty small

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This means Tick and Mark knocked Earth's moon all the way to Mars. And even if that wasn't the case the moon/that moon (which is clearly the size of earth's moon) is denser than any continent on earth.

The "planet busting" feat might be impressive but the issue I see there is the three of them essentially finished off a destablized planet, making it hard to quantify. Later in your post, you added this...

That feat isn't hard to quantify. 50 Moons could fit inside the Earth

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And 81 to have equal mass

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And the planet those three flew through is bigger/denser than Earth as Viltrum has 1.25x of Earth's gravity

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So in reality it's actually a bit better to have busted Viltrum than earth. Now with that in mind I dare say its close to moon busting for each character. Not %100 a full on moon busting feat but look at the facts , how many moons it would take to fill the Earth/equal it in mass and this planet is denser than Earth.Sure De-stabilizing the core does knock it down few pegs and I won't claim a moon level Invincible. But it gets pretty close I'd say and Moons>>>Continents. Oh and of course EOS Mark is leagues above his younger self so he might as well be but I still won't say it is full on moon busting due to fear of over rating Mark. So to go from knocking a moon out of orbit (with help) to being close to busting one isn't unreasonable. Aaaaaaand remember those three tanked a planet bigger than Earth exploding

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They didn't take the full on blast due to distance away + all the energy goes outwards in a 360 radius(Not as good as ground zero ) but they still tanked a decent portion of the blast. And Mark would one shot his younger self and everyone else here

How did you ever come to that conclusion by posting weaker feats than I had posted, scaling Mark against himself earlier and later by benchmarking off a character without giving quantifiable feats, and listing shared feats (with context) where it becomes difficult to determine what Mark actually did? That's before even looking at the character for whom I gave battles from which to scale. The only conclusion you seem to be providing evidence for is that Mark was stronger later than he was earlier and somehow misapplying that to being stronger than Aquaman.

Feats for Vultimite War Mark: Charges through a planet denser than Earth with help and tanks a portion of the explosion. With that being better than what Aquaman has done. So when Thragg someone who before one shots Mark is defeated by a more powerful Mark, it shows the large gap between Aquaman and Invincible.

Aquaman scales off of Superman level characters. They have had several battles and we have that consistency where Aquaman has the physicals to face off against Superman level characters, at least for a bit.

Here's the thing about scaling from Superman. Aquaman hasn't fought a bloodlusted version of him nor has he definitively surpassed him or done something stats wise that he couldn't. Mark scales from Thragg, because Thragg was %100 going for the kill and Mark one shotted Robot's suit when Thragg couldn't. Aquaman can still scale from Supes but it's not as good since he isn't fighting him at his absolute best aka willing to kill. nor has he done something Supes couldn't stats wise..You posted..

Superman kicked off from that planet so hard in his attempt to get to the stars he shattered it without anything to destabilize it, or using momentum flying in from space, or help, or anything else like that. He's Superman. Invincible is not in Superman's league or anywhere near it. Again, that is the level Aquaman scales to in his battles. Of course, you also had this to say...

Planets>>>Moons>>Continents. If Superman wanted to he could rip Aquaman in half. If Aquaman fought a mind controlled Superman and held his own then you'd be able to scale better but he hasn't only against a fully in control Superman who wouldn't ever kill another superhero. As of now Aquaman can scale to Superman but he's not even near Supes's level when he finally lets loose. Unlike Aquaman Mark has more than surpassed his previous superior.

Vulko is an older scholar, and he's fast and strong enough to "knock Superman away". In the image above those two, Supe's eyes are closed and he looks unconscious. That took place before the Atlantean armies even rose from the oceans during Throne of Atlantis. It took 24 panels and two scene changes before Superman was able to return to the fight. At which point Superman needed to catch up and ask questions.

Has Aquaman overpowered or stomped Vulko to say he can scale from him? Another way to scale would be to show Aquaman dealing more damage to Superman or at least close to that. But Aquaman, from what you've shown has ever k.oed Supes.

Clearly well after the battle started. There is a huge time gap from the point Aquaman punches Superman out of the scenario and when Superman finally returns. He was either unconscious, knocked so far away it took that long to get back, or a combination of both to add up to such a long absence. This battle is similar too...

This does not line up with this

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Aquaman gets in far more hits on Superman here than in other scan and yet he never k.os Supes only knocks him around. No visible damage not even hitting the spit out of his mouth.

That blow where the shockwaves are tearing up the ground sure look like it hurt. Mera is clearly capable of knocking Superman farther than Vulko did. In that third image, Superman is dazed enough is not even blocking, dodging, or getting counter-attacks in; he's simply getting smacked around hard. Now, Aquaman is not Superman. But he is in Wonder Woman's ballpark to the point he does do damage to Superman with his striking power. He's also far stronger and faster than any other Atlantean after his hybrid nature unlocked thousands of years old genetic features, which is why he strikes so much harder than other Atlanteans, who can clearly knock Superman back. You don't even need to take my word for it. This is one of several interviews that were done around that fight, so in case you decide to continue trying to lowball or discredit those feats, keep this in mind... Any argument you have where you are trying to claim Aquaman wasn't doing damage is nothing more than head-canon. No that that's settled, moving on to other points.

A level damage that would indicate Aquaman could really hurt Superman if given the chance? No. A level of damage that would indicate Aquaman can knock him around and leave no lasting visible damage? Yes. No bruises, no marks, no blood, not even spit. This is why Aquaman doesn't fully scale to Supes's level, to some degree sure but not even half.

Regarding Invincible's speed, some of those look fast but aren't quantifiable or get back to my earlier comment about taking place in space. The fast he didn't light on fire simply means the fan-calcs are wrong.

Expect that there is real tangible distance between Saudi Arabia and the U.S and a measurable time frame. Flying from the U.S to Saudi Arabia assessing the battle seeing that its bad then going back to the U.S in the time it takes to chew a single bite of food is hilariously faster than re enter speeds. Omni-man literally could not do that unless he moved that fast, he can't teleport so speed is his only option. Whether he light on fire or not is irrelevant he still preformed the feat.

And it's still pointless when Aquaman has managed against Superman with such speeds. I could wank that right up with the moon rebuilding feat if I wanted to push it. The fact is, Aquaman is high hypersonic at deep pressures as his lowest measurement, faster outside of water, and has shown the reflexes where his speed is relevant against Superman and Wonder Woman even though both are faster characters. Aquaman also has clear combat speed as shown. And before you try to lowball that one too...Atlanteans are used to the pressure and resistance of the water. That image is Garth and Donna Troy. What it demonstrates is that too much speed or force can throw an Atlantean off balance, so such speed and force is used deliberately as opposed to carelessly. That's why Aquaman shows speed and reflexes but does not always apply the speed out of the water when he's hard to hurt anyway.

Aquaman doesn't fully scale to Superman since they are not even close to the same level. The simple fact is Mark can accelerate to FTL speeds and experience time dilation to achieve the necessary reactions to operate at such levels. Does this mean Mark has FTL combat speed? No, at most relativistic combat and light speed reactions. Thragg (Mark has more than surpassed so scaling to him is fine) zips around Space Rider's laser

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Which as shown before outspeeds Omni-man during the Vultrimite planet busting and Omni-man can travel at light speed so with the laser staying in front of Omni-man giving it his all makes it at least light speed. And Thragg zips around it, showing light speed reactions. Being high hyper sonic isn't enough, heck I even showed Omni-man being that fast with the America to Saudi feat. Light speed rushes with the ability to operate at those levels shows that Invincible is much faster than high hyper sonic and thus faster than Aquaman.

Cecil doesn't look fast.

Cecli only has to take a simple single step forward to teleport yet as soon as he does Invincible flys off into the horizon.

Also, for all this speed being shown, I don't see it in a tropical storm? How are Invincible's senses for navigating such?

Some rain isn't going to blind Invincible.

TK

The wave of his hand is holding the TK bubble. The reactor is disintegrating more slowling in the background.

The reactor disintegrates at the same speed as everything else. There really isn't a point to this.

Those internal attacks were clearly not being used on characters as durable as Aquaman or King Shark, both of whom benefit from massive body density multipliers as part of their physiological adapation.

One's insides are not as durable as the outsides unless specifically stated or shown. There's a reason why internal attacks are so effective.

Controlling matter doesn't mean controlling it on the atomic level. The write up you gave is to bend steel and stop bullets, and the images so far haven't demonstrated that level of ability.

I don't see why not to have control over matter one must manipulate it at the very least the molecular level, maybe even atomic level. Controlling matter is specifically mentioned. Those people and the reactors turn to literal dust its clear.

It's also a bit "neck feats" to assume they don't have fast healing all around, especially since the high durability precludes having needed to demonstrate it in the past. I can think of a few examples, however.

Aquaman's healing factor has not been shown to overcome and heal direct severe brain damage and without feats to support your claim , InvinToyo can disintegrate his brain.

King Shark was being bomb controlled with bombs that would atomize him and the entire room around him. They were detonated while he was wearing them and destroyed an undersea military complex the size of a small town. Everyone assumed he was destroyed but instead he survived it and was able to leave the area before Superboy could get there to look for his body.

That was not an atomization bomb just a strong a bomb, it doesn't atomize.

he other two images are using Resurrection Man. They show King Shark eating Resurrection Man and the energy could be seen coming out his eyes that had gone in through his mouth. The final image is how Resurrection Man creates new bodies out of existing materials around him, which would include the inside of King Shark's head.

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Expect it took King Shark out of the fight. Survived? Yes. Tanked? No. He can be incapacitated from brain damage

These images demonstrated that Shaggyman had squeezed Aquaman's head hard enough blood started to run out his mouth. There was an obvious concussion at minimum in that fight, and likely with Karaku too. Those healed quickly.

Having your head squeezed isn't the same as having parts your brain disintegrated/ turned to dust

Aquaman virtually never demonstrates damage to such an area because of his durability. He does, however, demonstrate resistance to attacks to change him.Aquaman Tyde's transforming water that affected the rest of the planet, and the transformation of the Otherness that turned people into Deadwaters. The Otherness turned out to be a psionic sentient ocean planet.

Toyo isn't going change Aquaman into a zombie he's going to disintegrate him on the atomic/molecular level. Toyo isn't rearranging Aquaman's molecular structure just ripping it apart.

Deadpools Healing Factor

Not at all. Deadpool has been specifically stated (as shown) to have protection against telepathy because of his regeneration. Having additional protection from being messed in the head is irrelevant because it doesn't preclude the demonstrated regeneration protection. You would be the one cherry picking what applies and what doesn't, not me.

The perk is Deadpool's healing factor not Deadpool's "telepathy resistance" its that simple. That is another aspect of the character. Your cherry picking that Deadpool's regen makes him immune to tp (which it doesn't) yet still leaves Mark to killed by simple stabbing.....DP's mental state is what makes him an oddball with tp

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The messed up imagery clearly shows DP's metal state to be a another prime factor in having decent TP resistance. But the thing is Taking over someone's body is not mind reading or mind control. Its something completely different.

The problem is that some of the feats you want to come with it are dependent on another factor -- Thanos Curse. Deadpool's regeneration isn't what keeps him alive. Without that curse, Invincible could die or become incapacitated. The regeneration is good, but it's not going to guarantee a win by any stretch.

Deadpool's healing factor is what is going to keep Mark alive if he is stabbed. Your trying to disregard the perk my team has. He stays alive because DP's healing factor heals off the damage. Because that's what a healing factor does. As simple as that.

And because it's Deadpool's regeneration that also provides protection from telepathy as demonstrated Toyo cannot take over Mark's body. That's just a fact. Also, brainstab and some godsmack levels of magical abilities for additional damage, repeatedly for mush, maybe twist it around through a few eyesockets and a beheading. Aquaman's trident bypasses the durability easily.

Provides protection from TP yet still doesn't work against a brainstab? Again cherry picking. Deadpool's HF no sells brain damage with ease

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Just fine even when a hole is blown through his head

And knife in the head yet still just fine

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At what point is it "Thanos death curse" or Deadpool's HF? At this point they are one and the same. Also Aquaman won't be "twisting" anything when InvinToyo punches away Aquaman after laughing off the damage from being stabbed. Bypassing durability means nothing when the damage being dealt is healed off instantly. And Invincible survived fighting in the sun so lightning won't damage him.

I'll just post feats for Toyo since this still seems to be an issue for you

Hijacks a metal link and nearly kills 2020 ( Harbinger 15)

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Scans the entire world

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Projects a disguise into any mind for miles in the direct path of a neural disrupter

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Defeats Peter in a TP battle (Harbinger #23)

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1)Who can defeat Ingrid another telepath

2-3) Hear thoughts while near Saturn

4) TP a group of soldiers in the path of neural disruptor

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Heck Toyo's mind is strong enough to be unaffected by reality warping ( Imperium #7)

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What ever measly defense DP's healing might or might not (this is the most obvious ) supply Toyo easily overpowers it.

Also, I went through that stronger etc body above. You clearly have not demonstrated that to be the case at all.

Expect I have Mark ramming through a planet denser than earth with help>>Catching a continent level attack. And Invincible at that point is fodder to his EOS self

Batman's Skill

He does but the writer's intent was obviously to demonstrate his skill by the dialogue.

Expect when Aquaman's strength is specially mentioned

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And then proceeds to k.O her with brute force once he stops going easy

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Batman has plenty of wankpower, sure. Hell, he's even saved Superman from a mini black hole.

Thats N52 Batman with a power suit don't see what this has to do with pure skill

If I believed every batwank pic out there I'd have to be pretty gullible. This image is part of a longer sequence showing Wonder Woman's caliber as described by Black Canary (another top tier martial artist) in which Canary didn't know if Diana let her score a strike or if someone of Wonder Woman's caliber had actually given her an opening with an unexpected mistake; ie luck.

Expect it really isn't wank when Batman outskilled WW who then easily overpowered him.

TBH, all your images showed was Batman successfully pulling off a sneak attack.

Batman and Wonder Woman we're sparing in training room. I don't see how that comes even close to a sneak attack

Bats doesn't stand a chance against her in a fair fight even with the Justice Buster armor. Trickery was his only way to go. Even if he could score a strike, that doesn't make him better; just good enough to be relevant.

Of course he doesn't he's a street leveler and she's a low high tier ( Like Aquaman and Chesire.......). This isn't about whether or not Batman defeats WW in a fight its about skill and Batman has displayed more.

The greatest warriors from an ancient warrior race? Or the one's from Thule that were bred and trained to face Aquaman specifically with a few centuries of prep? No, those were the special forces for the ancient warrior race... Those are accolades by themselves, and he's still skilled enough vs WW. Batman's skill cannot possibly exceed his by enough to make the difference you think. Matching Karate Kid is zero G doesn't mean a thing unless you are demonstrating Karate Kid is more skilled than Wonder Woman or Aquaman, and all that image really shows is that Karate Kid was similarly skilled to Batman.

The terms "greatest warrior" and "special forces" are given out like candy and mean nothing. This can be done with Karate Kid, he has mastered every martial art developed throughout the galaxy by the 31st century. He breaks eighty kilotons of snow despite having no real powers, only skill

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Now Batman isn't at this level but to have held his own and not be curbstomped speaks for his skill. Honestly KK should be more skilled than Batman but for Batman to hold his own for even a moment is way more than what N52 Aquaman has done

and more than likely Wonder Woman" is speculation. It's wild speculation because if he was using Wonder Woman's skill he would have kicked Batman's ass. Aquaman has faced someone that skilled. Her name is Wonder Woman. He also handled Murc, who was the best of the drift and royal guard, protected Orm from the Deep Six, and was the sole survivor of some fire trial. I would have to look for that reference and find it if you want. As I said originally, his repeated showings against Wonder Woman is enough to set his skill level.

Wonder Woman is high trained fighter and one of the big three of the justice league why wouldn't she be on the disc? Top 30, not top 5 or 10. 30 people. She is widely known in and out of universe as a skilled fighter to say she would be on the disc is pretty reasonable. Two times Batman outskils WW, the sparing match and more than likely against Prom.

Thoughts

I gave scans that disagree with you. Simple as that.

Same here.

Thragg isn't near Superman, or the opponents more powerful than Superman, so the punches in the faces mean little. The molecular / atomic level wasn't really demonstrated but resistance to that level of manipulation was as well as healing from the damage. A bigger problem is the attacks from the trident still.

Neither is Aquaman but Thragg is alot closer to Superman than Aquaman. You haven't shown resistance to being disintegrated at the molecular/atomic level from the inside no less. Trident stabbing is healed off with ease.

Waller would keep King Shark dehydrated deliberately to control him. That made him slow and unintelligent. The second image shows one dip in the ocean reverses that. The third breaks mind control with a splash. The last demonstrates it was common enough they would go for water for King Shark as a tactic. The rain storm is more for him because he's more affected by dehydration and faster.

Getting refreshed isn't heal shredding his brain taking him out of the fight and InvinToyo or Archer can keep him out of the water with TK .

One splash is all it takes for Aquaman, too. He was worn out after a long battle, tricked Mad Hercules, and then fresh as fresh can be.

Again lifted out of the water with TK or brain dead via TK. Not going to heal brain damage

Those subs are about 450' long. As you can see, just Topo's head is about that wide and longer, and looks like it's bigger than a city block here. That's the small piece. Claiming to have one shot massive sea monsters is a false equivalence. These are Kaiju that grew to become ancient protectors of Atlantis. The Karaqan is was drove the volcano god Karaku to the hidden dimension of Pacifica as an example. They are extremely resistant to damage, highly intelligent, and burn with internal fire or energy that consumes them if they die. They will live thousands of years. Topo has high hypersonic speeds and such too. More serpents and more kraken and more monsters creates overwhelming numbers as an advantage.

"Ancient protectors" "Volcano god" Again buzz words that don't mean much. Topo being those doesn't mean anything unless feats are provided for them. The only one you have are the sharks (which are fodder and one shotted with ease) and the Kraken/Topo which is above aquaman but I don't see how it can tank a light speed near moon level bullrush to the face. And of course the battle can and will take place way above the clouds and water.

Except he's not.

Expect he is as Viltrumite War Invincible surpasses Aquaman which the shared feat and that Invincible is fodder to EOS Mark.

The obvious counter to that is Aquaman and King Shark stay deep in the water, far away from the open air. And continues to control the wind, and storms, and lightning, and ice, and earth, and water, and teleports... and flies like I mentioned in my opening post. He's got Poseidon's trident.

And the counter to that is bullrushing at speeds higher than what Aquaman can react to taking him out of the water and using TK to keep him in the air. Teleporting can only be used from the water and a vague scan of him floating doesn't constitute as flight. Its like if he was in space, without anything to push off of he can't move his body only his limbs same with King Shark.

Final thoughts

I not going to a line by line counter of your last section since it was covered above. But I will summarize of course my final thoughts. Mark is by far the strongest one here. His young Vultrimite War self was already above Aquaman but now that Mark is EOS above Thragg levels he should easily out muscle and out speed both Aquaman and KS. Toyo takes over Mark's body as Deadpool's healing factor doesn't provide real defense against TP and even if it did Toyo overpowers it. With that InvinToyo is stronger, faster, more skilled and nearly impossible to kill with DP's healing factor. With both InvinToyo and Archer using tk to shred the insides of your duo. When the battle starts InvinToyo bullrushes Aquaman one shotting any summons if Aquaman manages to stab him he laughs it off while punching Aquaman away and throwing the trident into space then proceeds to beat Aquaman into a bloody plup with superior strength and skill while shredding his brain. While Archer does the same to KS or just keeps him floating in mid air until InvinToyo does the same to him.

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#16 Edited by AValiantImge (368 posts) - - Show Bio

@ashrym Final Post is up and no worries about the late reply this tourney is dead anyways (not a big surprise) and it's niceto face someone who finishes their CAVs.

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#17 Posted by Ashrym (2953 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Posted by AValiantImge (368 posts) - - Show Bio

@ashrym: if you wanna to add another post go ahead I don't have anything more to add.

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#19 Posted by Ashrym (2953 posts) - - Show Bio

@ashrym: if you wanna to add another post go ahead I don't have anything more to add.

Final Post

Rather than respond to each of your points, your over-all arguments just have a few key things that should really be addressed.

Planets>>>Moons>>Continents.

The problem is Invincible doesn't have those feats. The planet was not stable and was shared, the moon clearly isn't proven to be Earth's moon no matter what picture you try to paint and was shared.

If Superman wanted to he could rip Aquaman in half. If Aquaman fought a mind controlled Superman and held his own then you'd be able to scale better but he hasn't only against a fully in control Superman who wouldn't ever kill another superhero.

Well, I did show Aquaman facing Shaggyman, a JL teambuster who outclasses Superman and has no reason to hold back, but if all you need is a Superman level opponent who isn't holding back than say no more. I think you forgot that Aquaman also scales off of Martian Manhunter.

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  1. Aquaman is restraining MMH until shapeshifting catches him off guard.
  2. Aquaman takes MMH telekinesis, which has been shown capable of ripping apart white martians.
  3. There is one of those cries of pain from MMH you might need to see to confirm pain.
  4. More striking power and speed, then MMH morphs extra eyes for the next image.
  5. That's martian vision Aquaman takes with no signs of damage.
  6. Aquaman bulrushes MMH and then forces him over to undersea lava vents.

That's a mind controlled Martian Manhunter. Now Aquaman scales better, no?

Has Aquaman overpowered or stomped Vulko to say he can scale from him? Another way to scale would be to show Aquaman dealing more damage to Superman or at least close to that. But Aquaman, from what you've shown has ever k.oed Supes.

This does not line up with this

Aquaman gets in far more hits on Superman here than in other scan and yet he never k.os Supes only knocks him around. No visible damage not even hitting the spit out of his mouth.

Aquaman one-shot Superman out of the trinity before the Atlantean army rose and Superman was not capable of returning until well after the army rose and the battle was underway. Nothing you posted changes that and it's immensely impressive.

OTOH, the second battle was Superman facing Aquaman after Aquaman had already gone through the US military having been voluntarily incarcerated until Mera decided he needed to rejoin Atlantis. There's more to that fight than I posted because it is not necessary to post every scene.

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There's your spit and expression of pain. Both ways.

What continues to amaze me is the characters and comics mention Aquaman is powerful enough to face Superman and Wonder Woman. The writers back that up in interviews like the one I linked. They even follow up on it in stories so it's clearly canon. Then someone on the internet give an argument that boils down to "nuh-uh".

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The first is in reference to the longer battle including Mera. The second is the Throne of Atlantis strike.

You simply don't have the argument to discredit Aquaman. Usually, that is handled through Manta lowballing even though Aquaman stomps Manta anytime he gets serious. Their relationship is more complex than that, however.

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One of Manta's goes is to get Aquaman to kill him so he can prove to the world that Aquaman is a murderer. Manta does get a lot of PIS thrown his way, but he also has the advantage of the moral victory if Aquaman ever did kill him (intentionally or accidentally). While Aquaman does kill, he tries not to and also holds back.

Getting back to those fights you were dismissing, I would point out that Aquaman was not using his trident. Any trident. Otherwise, Aquaman can skewer Superman as easily as he did Rao earlier, and Rao is yet another Kryptonian.

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I included the pain so you know it's real. ;-)

Plus, I demonstrated Aquaman one-shotting many Kryptonians with the trident. Aquaman was also facing them in melee prior to that. Here is that fight again in more detail.

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Those start after the army shattered Hal Jordan's shield around Earth, as an idea of their starting point. You can see them getting more powerful in minutes under the sun until they are as powerful as Superman. For Aquaman, this happens.

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Your comment on Vulko to imply he's anywhere near Aquaman to somehow prove Aquaman is weaker seemed odd. Vulko has no feats to demonstrate he's up there, no statements, and gets taken prisoner regularly. Aquaman has beaten the best as shown. You would need to prove Vulko is somehow Arthur's level before you could even begin pushing Vulko's strike on Superman as an anti-feat for Aquaman. GG.

The bottom line is I can come up with more arguments demonstrating that even though Aquaman isn't Superman, he's close enough. There's no way you can dismiss the sheer number of showings backing that up at this point.

And a reminder, I still don't buy your strategy. Toyo possessing Mark is a telepathic attack and Deadpool's regen clearly shows it gives him protection from telepathy.

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#20 Posted by Ashrym (2953 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by Ashrym (2953 posts) - - Show Bio

@defiant_will: Bump. Still waiting for this to be switch to votes.

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#22 Posted by AValiantImge (368 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by geekryan (4757 posts) - - Show Bio

@ashrym: @avaliantimge: I'm almost certain this tournament is dead. Defiant hasn't responded in weeks.