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#1 Posted by foxerdes (9777 posts) - - Show Bio

Lady Shiva represented by Chimeroid

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Ninjak represented by EmperorThanos

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Rules:

  • No time to prepare
  • Win by death or KO
  • Standard Gear
  • Location. Combatants start on different floors (A upper than B)
  • Random encounter
  • In-character
  • 3 posts per debater

Enjoy another not so Mid-Street Tournament. Sixteen participants will face each other to prove they are the top dog here. Winner as usual will be determined by other members of the forum so feel free to share your thoughts once the debate is over. Good luck and have fun!

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#2 Posted by foxerdes (9777 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Chimeroid (9169 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos Super excited about debating against you, waited for quite a while :D

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#4 Edited by HigherPower (11982 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#5 Posted by Vertigo- (17491 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: Always wanted to see what all the fuss behind Shiva was, and you did call her "teh bae" once (post 16). Not sure if I'll vote quite yet, but tag me after every post, please and thanks

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#6 Posted by cdiddyman911 (5525 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me please. This certainly looks like an uphill battle for one of you...

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#7 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos Super excited about debating against you, waited for quite a while :D

Yeah same, I can't believe we haven't already. Would you mind going first? I got still finish a little more reading on ninjak.

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#8 Posted by Chimeroid (9169 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos:Here we go

Lady Shiva

I deliberately missed you, pig... to prove I could kill you easily! Instead, I prefer to do it otherwise:

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Sandra Wu-San, known as Lady Shiva, is one of the greatest martial artists in fiction and definitely top 3 in DC. What separates her from the bunch is her obsession with death, be it her killing her enemies or trying to find someone worthy of killing her, Lady Shiva is obsessed with warrior's death. TO be completely fair, this can sometimes come up as a disadvantage to her as she will refuse to degrade herself by killing enemies who are not worthy of being killed by her, but I doubt that would be her opinion of Ninjak. But, not to drag on, let's get on to what we really want to see, the feats.

Physicals

Lady Shiva is a peak human, commonly tussling with other peak humans and easily being capable of great things, let's go through some of them

Strength:

While not really known for her strength Sandra Wu-San is definitely not a wimp, she has various strength feats that come in both striking and lifting feats, so let's showcase them a little:

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1. Rips a huge man's guts out with her bare hands 2. Tosses a man quite a distance with one arm

I do understand that feats like this don't quite put her at Batman's level, but she definitely has enough brute strength to contend.

Striking Power:

While her lifting feats are few and far in-between, he striking power is incredible and almost unmatchable by non-powered characters, you will see what i mean soon enough.

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1. With a single kick sends Hwa Rang (430 pounds heavy) flying and impaling him onto spikes. Worth noting that Hwa Rang was fighting Nightwing evenly and had the upper hand 2. One-shots Nightwing (he was out for the rest of the fight) 3. Breaks the bones of Post-Hush Croc with ease.

Speed:

We will get to various speed feats later on in the debate, as it goes, but, Shiva had no troubles fighting against the speed of Cassandra Cain and even out-pacing her:

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Another gorgeous showing of Shiva's speed would be her fight against Connor Hawke where she effortlessly kicked 4 arrows out of the air simultaneously

Skill

It goes without saying that I will not be posting all of the feats that Shiva has regarding her skill or the best ones in my opener, but I will present with some feats that leave little to be desired. So, what has Sandra achieved that makes her out to be so well known for her martial skills:

Well, for one thing, i should bring up the first time she tested to see if Richard Dragon was worthy of her attention and found him wanting.

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It is worth noting that this was Richard Dragon after he has won the title of the best fighter in the world and after he trained Batman whom Richard described as a "talented amateur" .

Another one of her lower-end feats would be humiliating the Huntress while barely trying.

And lastly for this post, she has beaten Batman with relative ease in a newer comic.

I will come back with better feats later on in the debate, this should suffice for now.

Body Reading:

One of the reasons Lady Shiva is as deadly as she is is the fact that she has learned the language of combat and can use it to predict the moves of her opponents before they make them.

But let's let someone infamous for that ability explain it for us:

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To be fair, this was a de-powered Cassie Cain, i am not using this showing to say Shiva stomps Cassie, simply to point out her ability.

The Leopard Blow:

The one move i had to separate from all the rest, Shiva's ultimate finisher, the Leopard Blow:

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Shiva enjoys the battle and is no hero, she kills her opponents and, if she deems you worthy of it, she will do so by using her signature technique, but how powerful is it? Well, when Richard Dragon said "Through the skull" he meant it a bit more literally than we expected as it goes through the back of the enemies head, like he, unfortunately, experienced himself,

But, the most impressive use of the Leopard Blow was when Neron brought both of them to hell and pitted them against demons:

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I know, this is a weird ass showing, but I still decided to run with it :D

Initial Consideration:

I would expect this to be a pretty decent match with both of them having to work for the win they want to deserve, i will not call out for Shiva's win before i see your post since, honestly, i do not know enough about Ninjak just yet to make a conclusion. But, from what i can see, he is a high-tech ninja, and, thankfully, Shiva has experience with one. Meet ShadowDragon , a cyber ninja capable of giving Superman himself trouble with his speed and weapons, He can move at the speed of thought and dodge lasers, so, one could say that he is pretty damn comparable to Ninjak, however, when he faced Shiva, he did not really stand a chance

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There was more in that fight, she took some hits, but i can't post due to the 3 post number rule.

This should be more than enough for an opener and to give an idea of how good Shiva actually is, the ball is back in your court, in the meanwhile Shiva has a message:

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#9 Edited by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid:

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Ninjak

Bio

Ninjak's real name is Colin King. Both his parents were spies which resulted in them almost never being home and so he was brought up by a cruel butler. Who would also end up giving him earliest teaching for becoming a Spy himself. In the new Rebooted Valiant Universe as Mercenary who does jobs for the MI6 and he was hired by them to bring down X-O Manowar. However he would end up teaming up with him to fight of aliens. He would later join and be part of Unity which is basically a sort of avengers for the Valiant Universe.

Abilities and Skill

Speed

Ninjak has no superhuman powers or anything He is just a peak human with some nice tech. However he is still pretty fast and agile.

A good example of his agility comes in Ninjak #6. Where he fought one of the Shadow. The opponent he was fighting could control a bunch of small circular drones that where capable of firing of lasers. Ninjak uses his agility and speed to avoid the various lasers to finally strike the person controlling then. He then quickly destroys every single one of them.

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And like most street levellers, Ninjak is a bullet timer. As shown in Ninjak #1 when he was shot at by Roku. He managed to block the bullet after it was fired with his gauntlet/arm as it was coming to face.

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Durability

Ninjak has pretty good durability, pain tolerance and endurance. On top of that his suit gives him an added layer of protection just in case.

He has been able to tank strikes from Superhuman on multiple occasions. One such occasion involves X-O Manowar or Aric in Unity #1. Where he tanked a bullrushed punched from Aric and was able to get back up and fight again. Aric is capable of busting tanks with punches and while he wasn't using such power tanking a punch from him is still impressive.

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As for his suit, it is made from Anti Ballistic Polymer. In Ninjak #5 It was shown to be able to protect him from Roku's hair. It was stated that just three strands of Roku's hair can behead a man and her hair is also capable of cutting through metal with ease.

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Skill

Ninjak is no slouch in the skill department either. Though this is likely one area he is inferior to SHiva, he can still use skill in combat. For now I will stick to one example from Unity #5, where he manages to kill a man with single strike

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Gear

Ninjak's best advantage in this fight is that he always has one him a numerous amount of gear that can aid him at any given moment. Now I could go on forever on the various gear he has displaced in random encounters. But here are the most important

  1. Two Katana's made of a super metal that is superior to any regular metals found on Earth. It can be coated with poison and can vibrate at high frequencies.
  2. Special Gauntlets with multiple weapons from, a large blinding flash to knockout gas, that can be activated through a set of hand movements
  3. Special boots also fitted with weapons from poison tipped blades to explosives.
  4. Various different types of shurikens ranging from flash bangs to explosives.
  5. Special contact lenses

Initial considerations

I'm not all that familiar with Shiva so this will certainly be interesting. Based of your openers I guess the first advantage I can say Ninjak posses is his gear. Shiva is coming into this fight unarmed while Ninjak posses two katanas that will come in handy. However that aside it's his other gear in this suit that will really come into play. Now I am citing his various fight with Roku multiple times in this opener. But they do serve my points. Here in Ninjak #3 he fights her gain and we see his gear. First his grappling hook which has it's own AI. Though that will not come into play here the other weapons shown will. The first being a sort of flash that blind Roku temporarily and then the poison tipped blades on his boots.

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Ninjak really has no qualms with killing people. And he almost always uses his gear in his fights to help gain an advantage even if all they do is distract his opponents. With this he should be able to do significant damage to Shiva. While his durability should protect him from Shiva's regular strikes considering he has tanked hit's from superhumans on several occasions, as shown already. The leopard blow seems deadly but Shiva only uses it if she deems her opponent worthy according to you. So he may simply just end up killing her before she thinks about using it.

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#10 Posted by Chimeroid (9169 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos:

Round 1:

"The Combatants are set, it's time for a DEATH BATTLE!!!"

The Gear Question:

Something that i expected to be an issue when choosing Sandra was the fact that her Post-Crisis persona travels light and rarely uses weapons. However, that was the reason i asked for composite Shiva as in New-52 Continuity she does not shy away from her weaponry. And while it is true that Ninja-K definitely has better gear than Shiva, it is not that she is completely unarmed. In fact, every time she was shown in the period between 2011 and 2016 she was armed. Let's go through it:

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1. Dual wielding Kusarigamas (as someone who has 10 years of martial arts behind me, i can say: this is nigh impossible)2. Hair blade 3. Throwing crosses(poisoned) 4. Shuriken 5. Bo staff (metal) 6. Dual wielding sword.

And even in Rebirth she was shown using a sword. Like when she was beating the shit out of the Bat-family:

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So, while she doesn't pack gear in the sense characters like Batman and Ninjak do, she definitely does not really find herself completely unarmed since the Flashpoint. So Shiva will not be getting carved up from distance.

Arguing your feats

While there is not a lot to disagree with, for the sake of the debate i need to discuss some of the showings you chose to use, however, i have no worries about you finding other feats to replace those:

Speed: The bullet blocking seems to be aim-blocking not really out-reacting a bullet.

Durability: Not quite a clean-cut feat since we can see from his claims that the Hologram he used made Aric almost miss completely and he blocked with his sword that was vibrating which he claims further lessened the power of the strike he said would go straight through him instead of just breaking his ribs in the following issue. And, while he was still capable of moving, he did not stand up. In fact he was on his knees trying to focus on not blacking out. Unfortunately, seems like this feat is inapplicable and that Ninjak's suit does not (as of yet) grant him any more durability Nightwing's grants him. Cutting resistance however, will come in handy for this fight. No doubt about it. But in the end, it does not make him invulnerable to strikes.

Debating battle considerations:

I'm not all that familiar with Shiva so this will certainly be interesting. Based of your openers I guess the first advantage I can say Ninjak posses is his gear. Shiva is coming into this fight unarmed while Ninjak posses two katanas that will come in handy.

As i have showcased in this post, Shiva hasn't really been going around unarmed since the Flashpoint. So she will have a weapon on her to combat his Katanas and level the playing field. She has proven herself to be extremely adept in the use of any weapon she laid her hands on so Ninjak will have his work cut out for him.

And, while it's true that Ninjak has his advantages with hidden blades and gases, one should remember that Shiva can predict his moves ahead of time and react accordingly.

So, why do i feel Shiva takes this?

Well, honestly, as i have said, she already faced a Cyber-Ninja archetype enemy in Shadow Dragon, and i am yet to see anything from Ninjak that would show us that he is superior to Shadow Dragon in any way. Given how easily Shiva took that fight i believe she would take a majority of her fights with Ninjak. However, one should also note that, while Shiva has showings against Cyber Ninjas, so does Ninjak have a showing against what is basically Valiant's version of Shiva, but without any weapons or move reading. And in his fight against Fitzy (that, unfortunately, we didnt get to see) it was shown that they are quite equal and the fight was pretty much a stalemate. (Ninjak 8). Shiva, however, is definitely a superior threat to Fitzy, for 3 reasons:

1. More, and better feats

2. Body reading.

3. Weapons.

But, how does Shiva take this?

Any of the number of possible ways she can take out an armored Ninja. She could use a leopard blow, attack with pressure points, use her swords on unprotected bits or, lastly, do like she did against Batman and go for a submission.

;)
;)

Back to you :D

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#11 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: Just saw this. Will get to it soon. In the mean time you have a finals that could really do with atleast one post.

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#12 Posted by ANTHP2000 (23855 posts) - - Show Bio

Ninjak kinda reminds me of WS.

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#13 Posted by Chimeroid (9169 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: Just saw this. Will get to it soon. In the mean time you have a finals that could really do with atleast one post.

I am the only one without prep, so i am waiting for them to make their openers. Doesn't really make sense for me to go first.

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#14 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos said:

@chimeroid: Just saw this. Will get to it soon. In the mean time you have a finals that could really do with atleast one post.

I am the only one without prep, so i am waiting for them to make their openers. Doesn't really make sense for me to go first.

Fair enough. I spoke to Zets and he said he will post but once he finishes another cav. Would you still be able to participate if I started the next edition before you guys finish. I did last time but I just want to check.

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#15 Edited by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio
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Counters

Gear

Something that i expected to be an issue when choosing Sandra was the fact that her Post-Crisis persona travels light and rarely uses weapons. However, that was the reason i asked for composite Shiva as in New-52 Continuity she does not shy away from her weaponry. And while it is true that Ninja-K definitely has better gear than Shiva, it is not that she is completely unarmed. In fact, every time she was shown in the period between 2011 and 2016 she was armed. Let's go through it:

Does she have one constant weapon or piece of gear that she uses in all her fights? Her gear seems to change every single time. So it's hard to determine what would actually be considered as Standard Gear. I guess the best way to determine that would be to just ask which of those instances were a random encounter. With Ninjak being a high tech ninja is what he is known for while if Shiva seems to be more of an unarmed combatant.

Feats

Speed: The bullet blocking seems to be aim-blocking not really out-reacting a bullet.

I disagree. The intent of the feat was pretty clear. We see the bullet leaving the gun and then Ninjak blocking it with his arm. It would take bullet timing reaction to block the bullet before it hit his face. However if that isn't enough here is another one which is a lot more clear cut. In Ninjak #27. Ninjak deflects another bullet after it is fired at him. This time he didn't even know th shooter was there and could only see her at the last minute with his nightvision. He didn't even have his sword out when the shot was taken but he still deflected it. In following scan he would again dodge two bullets whilst distracted with another opponent. His nigthvision had be destroyed so he couldn't see the shooter but still avoided the bullets and then tagged her with two shurikens.

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Now aside from just his reaction speed, Ninjak's combat speed is also pretty good. In Ninjak #16, Ninjak kicked up a bunch of stones into the air and manged to quickly kick all of them before they could fall down at his enemy. Whilst his hands were tied.

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Durability: Not quite a clean-cut feat since we can see from his claims that the Hologram he used made Aric almost miss completely and he blocked with his sword that was vibrating which he claims further lessened the power of the strike he said would go straight through him instead of just breaking his ribs in the following issue. And, while he was still capable of moving, he did not stand up. In fact he was on his knees trying to focus on not blacking out. Unfortunately, seems like this feat is inapplicable and that Ninjak's suit does not (as of yet) grant him any more durability Nightwing's grants him. Cutting resistance however, will come in handy for this fight. No doubt about it. But in the end, it does not make him invulnerable to strikes.

While Ninjak was injured, This was against someone who can casually destroy tanks who saw Ninjak as someone trying to destroy his newly found people. Ninjak tanking a single punch from him is impressive how being able to survive attacks and being able to get back up is enough to show how durable he can be or atleast his endurance and pain tolerance.

However another good feat for him comes in Ninjak #14. This time without his suit he takes multiple strikes from MI6 Agents wielding batons. He is not only able to tank these strikes but get his own counter strikes to take out his opponents. And this was without his suit.

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Another decent durability showing for Ninjak was when he go sucker punched by Roku and got up from it with no visible damage in Ninjak #26. Roku is actually pretty strong, she has been able to break swords with punches casually and this was a full on punch.

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Also even if Shiva does manage to hurt him. Ninjak has incredible paint tolerance on top of his durability. He can fight even with broken ribs as shown in Ninjak #5. Where he survived being punched through a wall and then falling on to another floor which resulted his ribs getting broken. However he was still able swim around and move too fast for his opponent to stop him from tying him down.

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Even if Shiva were to hurt him. Ninjak can fight through a lot.

Battle

As i have showcased in this post, Shiva hasn't really been going around unarmed since the Flashpoint. So she will have a weapon on her to combat his Katanas and level the playing field. She has proven herself to be extremely adept in the use of any weapon she laid her hands on so Ninjak will have his work cut out for him.

But again with almost each instance she has a different weapon so what weapon would she actually have? There is an entire continuity where she almost never used weapons while in New 52 she used random weapons without any of them being what would be considered standard gear.

And, while it's true that Ninjak has his advantages with hidden blades and gases, one should remember that Shiva can predict his moves ahead of time and react accordingly.

How would Shiva predict his usage of gear or what specific gear would actually do to her. For example Shiva would be familiar with a shuriken however she would have no idea what Ninjak's special shurikens would do to her. She attempt to deflect or catch it, maybe even dodge it but it could still affect her. For example here are some of the various shuriken's Ninjak has.

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  1. A Shuriken that has multiple electric wires attached to it.
  2. A Shuriken with blades that shot out of it once thrown
  3. A flashbang shuriken.

I don't see how she can predict attacks from gear she has no idea Ninjak has.

Well, honestly, as i have said, she already faced a Cyber-Ninja archetype enemy in Shadow Dragon, and i am yet to see anything from Ninjak that would show us that he is superior to Shadow Dragon in any way. Given how easily Shiva took that fight i believe she would take a majority of her fights with Ninjak. However, one should also note that, while Shiva has showings against Cyber Ninjas, so does Ninjak have a showing against what is basically Valiant's version of Shiva, but without any weapons or move reading. And in his fight against Fitzy (that, unfortunately, we didnt get to see) it was shown that they are quite equal and the fight was pretty much a stalemate. (Ninjak 8). Shiva, however, is definitely a superior threat to Fitzy, for 3 reasons:

Cyber-Ninja doesn't have the feat to compare, he may have gadgets but he isn't as skilled or as fast as Ninjak. And that Fitz fight was all off-panel. Ninjak wasn't even trying to kill Fitz but contain him since there was a chance that killing Fitz would have set of a bomb. And yeah Shiva is superior but that is really only due to Fitz having practically no feats even his one major fight was all off panel.

Any of the number of possible ways she can take out an armored Ninja. She could use a leopard blow, attack with pressure points, use her swords on unprotected bits or, lastly, do like she did against Batman and go for a submission.

Likewise Ninjak has multiple ways of taking her down. His gadgets can effectively one shot. And he has shurikens to give him a ranged advantage. A flashbang shuriken or a an explosive one would help disorient her if not take her out. And he has shown to be very accurate with them, though dodging isn't going help Shiva much. Also even if he is taken down his gadgets are there to help. For example in Unity #4 after being taken down by a superhuman, he was able to knock him out with gas.

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#16 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Edited by Chimeroid (9169 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos:

Round 2

An admirable post, however, it has some ideas i have to disagree with, and first of all, i would like to start with what i am basing a large chunk of my argument on - Shadow Dragon

Shadow Dragon > Ninjak, and what does it mean for this fight

While the two are definitely not fighting each other, i am insisting that we draw a direct parallel between the most "Ninjak" opponent Shiva has faced. And that is Shadow Dragon (or, if you want - Batman, but that doesn't bode any better for Ninja-K). One of your statements is very wrong, thankfully for me:

Cyber-Ninja doesn't have the feat to compare, he may have gadgets but he isn't as skilled or as fast as Ninjak.

Actually, he does. With his actual feats he is every bit as skilled as Ninjak and vastly faster. But, no worries, i have all of that backed up with feats. So, let us start with his skill and a direct comparison to the feat you offered us:

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1. Fights four masters at the same time, beats them with 0 effort and without getting tagged once.

You have given us a feat of Ninjak being outside of his suit and fighting multiple opponents too. While he has won, he was tagged 5 times by 3 enemies. In fact, his showing was quite messy, while Savitar Bandu (Shadow Dragon) won his fight with incredible ease. I know that he has fewer showings than Ninjak and that might make it feel like he is inferior. But his showings are incredible. He is at the very least as good as Ninjak. Now, i can see that one might argue that MI6 agents were armed, so HERE, you can see how unarmored Savitar handles armed opponents. (also, while we are here, Here is Shiva fighting 6 at the same time)

Now, let's go onto the speed. Which i feel Shadow Dragon holds way above Ninjak.

First let's go into how exactly his suit works since it does amplify his speed above peak human:

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In these scans you can see that Shadow Dragon's suit enhances his stats, and that he can move as fast as he thinks.

But, ofc, that alone is not enough to prove that he is faster. For that we need feats. And, who better for Shadow Dragon to square off against to show his speed, than Superman himself:

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1. He dodges Superman's initial attack, then Superman doubles his speed, which he dodges again. Then (in the scan i am posting due to the rule that dictates the number of scans) he dodges another attack for Superman to finally admit to himself Shadow Dragon is faster than he

Now. Shadow Dragon's suit works in a very specific way. He does not have combat speed per se. It is just that his reactions are over the top. So, against someone like Superman, who makes big swings, Shadow Dragon can dodge out. I am not saying he is FTL or anything. But he is clearly waaay above peak human.

So, What Does This Mean For This Fight?

To put it in the simplest way possible. Shiva has already beaten someone who is basically a version of Ninjak which means that little that Colin could do would actually surprise her. While, on the flip side, Colin's track record against someone as skilled as Shiva is not that great and Shiva even packs extra abilities and weapons compared to Fitz. .

The Gear Question:

Does she have one constant weapon or piece of gear that she uses in all her fights? Her gear seems to change every single time. So it's hard to determine what would actually be considered as Standard Gear.

Does Ninjak, to be fair? The only actual constant for him is his katana. Everything else he uses is rather random and most of it only pops up once, never to be seen again. Does that mean we should assume he would go in with only his Katana? No.

I guess the best way to determine that would be to just ask which of those instances were a random encounter.

Almost every single one of those was a random encounter. During the new 52 she has always worn her "Hair blade" and her shurikens, and in her most recent showings she has used a katana. So, it is reasonable to assume her gear for this fight would consist of a sword and throwing weapons. (she stopped using the hair blade).

With Ninjak being a high tech ninja is what he is known for while if Shiva seems to be more of an unarmed combatant.

This is an assumption made by you and some others who don't actually follow Shiva's story. As i have said Shiva has been armed in almost every single showing she had since Flashpoint. You cannot simply ignore 6 years of publication history because Shiva is "known" for being unarmed. Known by whom, if i must ask?

To be clear, the argument you are making is: "While she always has a weapon, she tends to use various weapons, thus, we are to assume she will come with no weapon.". Honestly, can you not see the error in that logic? I mean, we can literally say the same thing for Ninjak.

And, no, neither of those should apply.

However, to still deliver on what you are asking we have surveillance photos of Shiva showings us exactly which weapons she owns, her weapons cache and the fact that she uses a sword a lot more than anything else. This single scan shows 6 different, recent, and relevant showings of her with a sword.

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Feat vs Feat:

Thankfully, feats you are posting are very similar to the feats Shiva has for herself. Thus giving us a chance to draw a direct comparison. For an example, let's take the rock kicking one. Sure, it is cool, but kicking four rocks, vs kicking 4 arrows out of the air with a single foot, and quite casually, at it, is simply a lot better.

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Speed:

Sure, Ninjak can kick up a bunch of rocks and kick them again to hit his enemies. But Shiva has kicked 4 arrows out of the air with one leg and with no apparent difficulty. Clearly a better feat. Now, you could try and argue that his bullet timing feat should put him above Shiva. However, once more, Shiva has a feat to prove that she can still overwhelm him with her speed.

Remember this feat?
Remember this feat?

This is Shiva outpacing Cassandra Cain. Well, to be fair, Cassie later got better at her martial arts again and beat Shiva, however, i am only using this fight as a COMBAT SPEED showing. And how fast should you move to outpace Cassie? Well, pretty darn fast. Let's see how fast Cassie is:

Well, for starters, she can dodge 4 bullets, after they were fired, point blank, with a smile on her face

Or this one, Where She dodges a full load point blank while not appearing to be moving at all

Think about it, how hard must it be to punk Batman with a smirk like this?

Overall, the point i am trying to make is that Shiva has fought someone with better speed feats than Ninjak and was even completely outpacing her through sheer combat speed.

Skill:

Ninjak is good, i am not going to argue that he is not, but he relies on his gear a lot and, in general, has very inconsistent skill showings with even his best not really matching up to Shiva. For an example, you have shown us Ninjak blocking a bullet with his sword from Ninjak #27 a damn nice feat. However, mere panels after - this happened:

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This dude has no special speed feats and later on we see Ninjak outpacing him in return. So, what this scan shows is that Ninjak is either A) Inconsistent or B) Relying too much on his armor.

And when you look through his other showings. You can also see that Ninjak does tend to be tagged a lot in situations where someone like him should definitely avoid it. If the exact same scenario from the upper scan was to happen, but with Shiva instead of the lizard man, He would be dead on contact. Nerve strikes, submissions, or a leopard blow. Doesn't really matter. Dead Ninjak is what matters. Look, once you've tapped out Batman there isn't much higher you can go in regards to martial art.

Given her ability to "see Death" by reading their opponents body movements and find the most effective way to take someone out, i don't really see how Ninjak wins this. True, he has his gadgets, some of which seem useful, however, by the time he felt he was in a pinch he would already lose this fight. Not to mention that Shiva has already fought various opponents who deploy gadgets in combat, and won.

And, to wrap up the skill section of this post, i will show a feat of Shiva murdering a whole lot of Colony agents after being ambushed by them.

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And given how they beat the living crap out of Azrael you can rest assured that they are far above MI6. Best part? She murdered them all in 10 seconds flat.

Countering your battle considerations:

Before revisiting my own, i would like to point out some of the issues that i have with your battle considerations.

How would Shiva predict his usage of gear or what specific gear would actually do to her. For example Shiva would be familiar with a shuriken however she would have no idea what Ninjak's special shurikens would do to her.

Given how easily she can dodge or deflect them (nobody really catches shuriken), i don't see this being that much of an issue. The hardest one to dodge in your scans is the one that splits into 4 spikes, and Shiva has dodged more difficult projectiles than that. While his gear is decent, it doesn't really compare with fighting a dozen soldiers armed to their teeth of whom each can pose a challenge to Jean Paul Valley (someone on Batman's level).

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So yeah, exploding Shuriken<< 11 super soldiers with assault rifles, bombs and full combat gear.

Likewise Ninjak has multiple ways of taking her down. His gadgets can effectively one shot. And he has shurikens to give him a ranged advantage.

This is street tier. Everything can oneshot. It takes Shiva a single blow to kill Colin either by hands or her sword. However, i don't see how Shurikens give him a ranged advantage since Shiva uses them too. And has used them, not only in newer comics, but since her first appearance back in Richard Dragon comics. Literally the first panel we get to see Shiva in combat was her using Shurikens. What's worse for you, she is better at using them than he is. As in literally "20 headshots in a single throw" better than he is. And if she brings her Kusarigama, she would also retain her mid-range advantage. However, i have to admit that it is not likely. In the end, she has her sword and her shuriken to even the playing field.

And he has shown to be very accurate with them, though dodging isn't going help Shiva much.

I see no reason for this to be true. Only his flashbank shurikens would pose a difficulty when it comes to dodging and that is a piece of gear he has only used against enemies he otherwise cannot fight. Honestly, i see nothing to convince me that he would open his fight against Shiva with those. Not to mention that i don't believe they would be as effective as you would wish them to. It's not like Ninjak is faster than Shiva to get the first attack off anyhow.

For example in Unity #4 after being taken down by a superhuman, he was able to knock him out with gas.

Not much of a problem. For 3 reasons. 1. Ninjak's in character behavior 2. The complexity of activating that gas 3. Shiva's feats of still managing to fight while poisoned.

1. Ninjak's in character - As we have seen, Ninjak allowed himself to be ragdolled for quite a bit before resorting to using his Gas. At this point Shiva would have already ended the fight.

2. The complexity of activating - It takes 4 hand movements in consecutive order and only them aiming at his opponents face to spray out a small cloud of gas. In the time that would take him to do so Shiva would have already ended the fight.

3. Shiva's feats - Ninjak wouldn't be the first to poison Shiva. In fact, once she was poisoned by Cheshire herself (during the run Shiva was one of the Birds of Prey and thus, not killing her opponents). And, even though she should have been completely paralized Shiva managed to fight on for two more pages. And that was when she was clearly poisoned a while before. In a situation in which Colin would resort to poison, 2 pages of fighting would be more than enough. Not to mention that Shiva still survived the poison.

Revising My Own Battle Considerations

You are giving us some really nice battle showings for Ninjak, however, they are far from flawless. The first issue that is going to pose a threat is their respective track records.

Shiva has fought various ninjas with Super gadgets. She has fought Batman, Azrael and Shadow Dragon. Beating them all with relative ease. So Ninjak, while having his gadgets, is nothing she didn't see before.

Ninjak, however, doesn't really handle battling opponents that are better than him all that well. His fight with Fitzy ending in a stalemate is proof enough. And, unlike Fitzy, Shiva is coming in armed and with her body reading capabilities. For every feat you can offer for Ninjak Shiva has faced someone who does things in a similar way and found ways to win.

In the end, every advantage that you listed for Ninjak has been addressed. And, in fact, the only advantage that he holds is his trick shurikens.

She has dodged taser shots by Shadow Dragon. She has also dodged multiple shots at the same time.

When it all comes together, Ninjak's reliance on his armor would be his downfall. He lets himself get tagged way too often and Shiva would exploit that fact striking him with a nerve strike for the win. (or any of the other ways i have presented for her to win).

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#18 Posted by foxerdes (9777 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by Chimeroid (9169 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: OH forgot about this. Will try get a reply up in a couple of days.

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#21 Posted by Chimeroid (9169 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: Always wanted to see what all the fuss behind Shiva was, and you did call her "teh bae" once (post 16). Not sure if I'll vote quite yet, but tag me after every post, please and thanks

I totally forgot that you asked to be tagged after every post. Well, the debate is not over yet, so you can get a quick update right now. It is rather easy to read though. :D

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#22 Posted by Vertigo- (17491 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by Chimeroid (9169 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: Sry to disrupt your flow, but i will edit in the Feat vs Feat section, i thought i had finished that part, but i seem to have forgotten..

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#24 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: Sry to disrupt your flow, but i will edit in the Feat vs Feat section, i thought i had finished that part, but i seem to have forgotten..

So should I not post yet?

Also could tell me which issue that Cassandra Cain vs Shiva fight is from? (I was going to go the where is this from thread but then I realized your my go to person anyway)

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#25 Posted by Chimeroid (9169 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: I already edited it in. :D Feel free to make your post :D

Btw, the fight is from Batgirl 68. Only 5 issues before Cassie finally beats Shiva. And, Btw once more, Shiva wanted to lose to Cassie. You can see, on panel, when shiva stopped fighting back and smiled before her neck was snapped.

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#26 Posted by foxerdes (9777 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: @emperorthanos: Just for the record, I posted few of round 2 matches. You will get an additional time to finish the next round.

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#27 Posted by Chimeroid (9169 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: Been almost a month since you last posted m8, how's it going?

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#28 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes: @chimeroid: My post will be done today. But Chime can move on to the next round. I will finish tis debate but I won't be able to continue the rest of the tourney. (partly because I have kind of lost interest in repping Ninjak as well as time constraints.)

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#29 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15585 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes: @chimeroid: Actually after a week of trying to get a post up I'm going to go ahead and concede. Honestly I actually don't think I can see Ninjak winning this fight anymore. I see Ninjak as around Batman level if not lower and Shiva is quite clearly above that. I probably chose someone a little too weak for the tourney.

Sorry for wasting your time.

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#30 Posted by foxerdes (9777 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos:

Actually after a week of trying to get a post up I'm going to go ahead and concede.

Alright, thanks for the information.

Sorry for wasting your time.

You didn't waste anybody's time. It was an outstanding debate and a great example of what a skilled debater can do even with weaker character.

I probably chose someone a little too weak for the tourney.

Actually, that's my fault, not yours.