needs explanation.
(only made that rule because i must write something here, and i can not think of anything)
Michael Demiurgos vs Pre Recton Molecule Man
@baron_von_santa: Didn't you already make this thread?
Anyways I think we've already got enough Michael Demiurgos vs Molecule Man threads.
PR MM without a huge amount of difficulty.
@jwwprod: no, it was a three character thread, this is the first. and in every thread, these two are always brought up, but never actually used for their own battle thread
Ok, so here is why this is always a touchy, and frustrating debate. Some Heavy Marvel fans will automatically give the win to MM because of what was mostly STATED in Secret Wars. MM was only second to Beyonder and he was supposedly above the Abstracts and even LT. However, since nobody ever actually attacked him, we never saw if he was actually above abstracts or not. His biggest feat was repairing the Universe with his finger and blasting Beyonder with a blast that could have destroyed billions of dimensions. That is pretty much why people automatically assume MM stomps anyone else. He was basically, a mortal man with insanely powerful matter manipulation abilities which passed on to him manipulating reality itself.
But logically, lets look at Michael. He is literally the second most powerful being only to The Big Guy himself in DC comics period. He is the power of God embodied, meaning his power is, and actually has been shown to be truly unlimited and infinite. His power was described and an vast and endless ocean. It was Michael's demiurgic power that willed the DC Universe into existence out of NOTHING. Everything in DC, every molecule, atom, character, concept, idea, and even powers such as magic and Psionic abilities, all of creation itself flows from Michael's very existence. He is all power and he possesses all power.
Michael, due to his Archangel nature, is also truly Immortal seeing as he is beyond Death. When he was destroyed by Lucifer, he was flawlessly reformed from the blast immediately afterwards. Because Michael is all power, if he were to die and detonate, he would literally take all of creation with him, undoing all there is. To prove that his power is truly unlimited, Michael's power created the DC Universe, which was later shaped into the DC Multiverse, and Lucifer then created his own Multiverse in the void using Michael's Demiurgic power. Michael's power has created multiverses already on panel and it is evident that he can indeed create endless mutiverses, while Lucifer can shape endless mutiverses. So in a sense, his power could actually create megaverses, but then again it is LIMITLESS.
Now PR MM is a heavy hitter but as I said before, I don't see how his feats would defeat Michael IMO. For one MM is a human, whereas Michael is not, his durability without his powers, is still that of a mere man, which is infinitely less than that of Michael's. Also, MM's feat of repairing the Universe with this finger was the same thing Michael did. Michael was constantly repairing DC when The Presence left his creation. Every second, he was bleeding into creation and repairing the damage that was being done by the absence of God, while he was fighting Lucifer and severely weakened form the battle. Also, a lot of times I see people use collateral damage as a reason or victory. I don't see how that works here.
1) MM warps reality but is still confined to the laws of the Universe, whereas Michael is above any such laws as he created his universe and all power within it.
2) MM destroying all of creation should not affect Michael because Michael has existed before any known Universe or matter was even an idea. He predates creation and MM does not. In fact, everything MM is, Michael is the creator of in DC. Reality warping is not a problem for Michael.
3) Even if MM manages to destroy Michael completely, he would most likely be destroyed himself because Michael's power would wipe out all of creation around them. After the blast, Michael would simply walk out of the destruction unscathed once again, while MM would be obliterated. What I am saying is, destroying millions or billions of dimensions means nothing to a being who embodies the power of endless creation and hold infinite power inside of himself to create endless universes just as easy.
4) One thing I also noticed about MM is that he was seemingly like MJJ. He was a POWERFUL Reality warper, but like MJJ, he was restricted to working inside the boundaries of Reality itself, meaning he needed reality to function with his powers. Michael created all realities and can destroy them just as easily, or warp MM to a place void of reality.
There are many reasons why I believe Michael would put up a great fight, and could even win, but before I get chewed out for going against marvel, it is obvious that MM wind due to how "OP" the comic made him, logically however Michael could take him.
@jwwprod Nope. I made this thread first. Look here:
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/michael-demiurgos-dc-vs-pre-retcon-molecule-man-ma-1458134/
@rijehu said:
Ok, so here is why this is always a touchy, and frustrating debate. Some Heavy Marvel fans will automatically give the win to MM because of what was mostly STATED in Secret Wars. MM was only second to Beyonder and he was supposedly above the Abstracts and even LT. However, since nobody ever actually attacked him, we never saw if he was actually above abstracts or not. His biggest feat was repairing the Universe with his finger and blasting Beyonder with a blast that could have destroyed billions of dimensions. That is pretty much why people automatically assume MM stomps anyone else. He was basically, a mortal man with insanely powerful matter manipulation abilities which passed on to him manipulating reality itself.
It was the multiverse not unviverse he fixed. he also in a few moments gathered enough energy to make a barier more durable than the multiverse and being able to control his and volcanas molecules when Beyoneder controled all the molecules on earth
But logically, lets look at Michael. He is literally the second most powerful being only to The Big Guy himself in DC comics period. He is the power of God embodied, meaning his power is, and actually has been shown to be truly unlimited and infinite. His power was described and an vast and endless ocean. It was Michael's demiurgic power that willed the DC Universe into existence out of NOTHING. Everything in DC, every molecule, atom, character, concept, idea, and even powers such as magic and Psionic abilities, all of creation itself flows from Michael's very existence. He is all power and he possesses all power.
If we want to look logicly it is illogical to think that micheal has the true power of god. he has the power of creation or the big bang if not more. that is above multiversal but he is not unlmited and infinite. Ellane was able to hold his power (with Lucifers help) and when he died (second time) not everything was destroyed. If micheal was truly the power of the prescence then him, lucifer an gabriel could overthrow god, but they cant. All micheal did was suply the energy for creation itself in which lucifer molded into reality, magic, ect.
Michael, due to his Archangel nature, is also truly Immortal seeing as he is beyond Death. When he was destroyed by Lucifer, he was flawlessly reformed from the blast immediately afterwards. Because Michael is all power, if he were to die and detonate, he would literally take all of creation with him, undoing all there is. To prove that his power is truly unlimited, Michael's power created the DC Universe, which was later shaped into the DC Multiverse, and Lucifer then created his own Multiverse in the void using Michael's Demiurgic power. Michael's power has created multiverses already on panel and it is evident that he can indeed create endless mutiverses, while Lucifer can shape endless mutiverses. So in a sense, his power could actually create megaverses, but then again it is LIMITLESS.
He died. Do you not remember he was killed by Lucifer? And this is a thing with the Archangles, while they are beyond death under normal circumstances they can also be killed and claimed by death. Death is weird in that way, she can claim other endless, creation and in time the archangles. IIRC she said if Lucifer did some resurection thing he would be under her domain. While Micheals power is inded beyond multiversal and could be megaversal that is 100% irelvent when dealing with either PR Molecule man or beyonder. There power comes from BEYOND creation itself. And I would not put to much into him being limitles. That has been said about many beings like the Phoenix Force (Similar to micheal in purpose but not power) and even Odin has been caled Omnipotent.
Now PR MM is a heavy hitter but as I said before, I don't see how his feats would defeat Michael IMO. For one MM is a human, whereas Michael is not, his durability without his powers, is still that of a mere man, which is infinitely less than that of Michael's. Also, MM's feat of repairing the Universe with this finger was the same thing Michael did. Michael was constantly repairing DC when The Presence left his creation. Every second, he was bleeding into creation and repairing the damage that was being done by the absence of God, while he was fighting Lucifer and severely weakened form the battle. Also, a lot of times I see people use collateral damage as a reason or victory. I don't see how that works here.
It is hard to call him just a "human". He was exposed to energy from the beyond realm a realm which makes the infinte marvel multiverse like a drop of water in the ocean that is beyond. And so what if he was a human before and who cares that micheal is an angel? Hulk has beaten gods and gone toe to toe with zeus yet he is still human. If you want to take away Molclue mans powers we could make it pure h2h against micheal as both human like beings. The thing with MM reparing was it was in a moment and done while he was doing other things. He reparied part of the multiverse from beyonders temper tantrum with one finger. What you sound like Micheal did was a job that required doing not something with hsi finger. And damage maters since if you cant tank it you are ko at the least
1) MM warps reality but is still confined to the laws of the Universe, whereas Michael is above any such laws as he created his universe and all power within it.
-__- the laws of the universe? His power source is beyond the multiverse! What is confining him? You say he is above laws and what not but MM power is beyond creation. Something far beyond micheal in power.
2) MM destroying all of creation should not affect Michael because Michael has existed before any known Universe or matter was even an idea. He predates creation and MM does not. In fact, everything MM is, Michael is the creator of in DC. Reality warping is not a problem for Michael.
It is not just him being able to destroy creation but being able to tap into a power that is BEYOND creation. Not only does marvel have higher levels of infinity. Where Cube beings can do multiversal stuff and are still dwarfd by others.
3) Even if MM manages to destroy Michael completely, he would most likely be destroyed himself because Michael's power would wipe out all of creation around them. After the blast, Michael would simply walk out of the destruction unscathed once again, while MM would be obliterated. What I am saying is, destroying millions or billions of dimensions means nothing to a being who embodies the power of endless creation and hold infinite power inside of himself to create endless universes just as easy.
Marvels dimensions work difrent from DC. Ya see in marvel our multiverse exists from the dimensoins 2.6 to 6.2 dimension wise. LT exists on the 16th dimension. Already we have things that dwarf versions of infinity. Dwarf multiverses. Surpass the power micheal put out in creation. And molcule man destroyed billions of them! that is beyond creating the infinte dc U to me.
4) One thing I also noticed about MM is that he was seemingly like MJJ. He was a POWERFUL Reality warper, but like MJJ, he was restricted to working inside the boundaries of Reality itself, meaning he needed reality to function with his powers. Michael created all realities and can destroy them just as easily, or warp MM to a place void of reality.
Where does anything even remotly like MJJ hapen for MM? His powers stem from something beyond creation. Not matter or anything else. That is his source. Creating does not mean destroying. His power can destroy him as shown when he ya know DIED.
There are many reasons why I believe Michael would put up a great fight, and could even win, but before I get chewed out for going against marvel, it is obvious that MM wind due to how "OP" the comic made him, logically however Michael could take him.
If we go by logic MM puting up any fight against beyonder gives him the win as beyonders power dwarfs both Micheal an Lucifer
@bronze_surfer said:
@rijehu said:
Ok, so here is why this is always a touchy, and frustrating debate. Some Heavy Marvel fans will automatically give the win to MM because of what was mostly STATED in Secret Wars. MM was only second to Beyonder and he was supposedly above the Abstracts and even LT. However, since nobody ever actually attacked him, we never saw if he was actually above abstracts or not. His biggest feat was repairing the Universe with his finger and blasting Beyonder with a blast that could have destroyed billions of dimensions. That is pretty much why people automatically assume MM stomps anyone else. He was basically, a mortal man with insanely powerful matter manipulation abilities which passed on to him manipulating reality itself.
It was the multiverse not unviverse he fixed. he also in a few moments gathered enough energy to make a barier more durable than the multiverse and being able to control his and volcanas molecules when Beyoneder controled all the molecules on earth
Well I stated MM was powerful so I have no problem with corrections as such.
But logically, lets look at Michael. He is literally the second most powerful being only to The Big Guy himself in DC comics period. He is the power of God embodied, meaning his power is, and actually has been shown to be truly unlimited and infinite. His power was described and an vast and endless ocean. It was Michael's demiurgic power that willed the DC Universe into existence out of NOTHING. Everything in DC, every molecule, atom, character, concept, idea, and even powers such as magic and Psionic abilities, all of creation itself flows from Michael's very existence. He is all power and he possesses all power.
If we want to look logicly it is illogical to think that micheal has the true power of god. he has the power of creation or the big bang if not more. that is above multiversal but he is not unlmited and infinite. Ellane was able to hold his power (with Lucifers help) and when he died (second time) not everything was destroyed. If micheal was truly the power of the prescence then him, lucifer an gabriel could overthrow god, but they cant. All micheal did was suply the energy for creation itself in which lucifer molded into reality, magic, ect.
PAUSE RIGHT HERE LOL. I NEVER, EVER stated that Michael was as powerful as God, I said he is the embodiment of God's power, the unlimited ability to create and destroy, which Michael God can do. Before we continue on assumptions, please explain to me where you feel I said this? In fact, on every thread I say the exact opposite. Saying he was God's power embodied is not at all the same thing as saying he is God's equal. Having the power of God DOES NOT equal the extent to which God himself can use that power. Rather it is LT or Michael, or Lucifer, they all can technically do WHAT their creators can, but no where near the scale or EXTENT of their creators. And Michael's power being absorbed by his daughter with the help of Lucifer does not in any way mean his power was limited, she was his daughter, his very own essence, of course she was built to contain that power since it was flowing from her very own creator.
Michael, due to his Archangel nature, is also truly Immortal seeing as he is beyond Death. When he was destroyed by Lucifer, he was flawlessly reformed from the blast immediately afterwards. Because Michael is all power, if he were to die and detonate, he would literally take all of creation with him, undoing all there is. To prove that his power is truly unlimited, Michael's power created the DC Universe, which was later shaped into the DC Multiverse, and Lucifer then created his own Multiverse in the void using Michael's Demiurgic power. Michael's power has created multiverses already on panel and it is evident that he can indeed create endless mutiverses, while Lucifer can shape endless mutiverses. So in a sense, his power could actually create megaverses, but then again it is LIMITLESS.
He died. Do you not remember he was killed by Lucifer? And this is a thing with the Archangles, while they are beyond death under normal circumstances they can also be killed and claimed by death. Death is weird in that way, she can claim other endless, creation and in time the archangles. IIRC she said if Lucifer did some resurection thing he would be under her domain. While Micheals power is inded beyond multiversal and could be megaversal that is 100% irelvent when dealing with either PR Molecule man or beyonder. There power comes from BEYOND creation itself. And I would not put to much into him being limitles. That has been said about many beings like the Phoenix Force (Similar to micheal in purpose but not power) and even Odin has been caled Omnipotent.
Michael "died" in the sense that his power was absorbed and he was never able to reform from it, thus he ceased to exist. Even so, it was Lucifer who killed him which is not a bad feat on Michael's end since they are equal in power scale. Just because something is above the embodiment of Death, does not mean they can't be killed by a power that rivals their own. LT is easily above Death in Marvel, but he can be kill by TOAA, yet we say he is truly immortal. Being technical will cause a headache so for the sale of sanity and what is on panel, these top tier beings are truly immortal i the sense that they are above their universes embodiment of Death. BUT, I kind of understand what you are saying about Death. She is bit weird because she is not bound by the laws of the other Endless, even though she is endless herself. However, she can't "kill" Top tier beings like Archangels because they are above her embodiment, yet somehow, every living thing seems to be below the concept of Death itself. I think what makes Death so powerful, is the fact that she exists as the end of ALL Life, even life that predates her existence and beings who are even more powerful than she is. It's like Death is a deadly carrier of a virus, and even though you can kill the carrier, once it infects you, you still die even though you killed the individual that represents Death. But in your favor, even DC stated that destroying an embodiment doesn't mean you can destroy the concept. It is just weird lol.
And what do you define as being beyond creation? I thought PR Beyonder was from another universe that was bigger than Marvel's, that is not beyond creation, just beyond MU. When I say Michael was behind creation, I mean he existed in the nothingness that predated any know matter, concepts, or abstracts. He along with Gabriel and Lucifer were the first beings God created. Lucifer, who is Michael's equal, even traveled into the void, and Primal monitor which is literally nothingness beyond the comic book. The void is a place where about three known beings only existed there by sheer will power. He became the 4th. I have not heard of wither PR MM or Beyonder being beyond creation, but I know they were beyond Marvel Universe.
The Phoenix and Odin would get smacked by any of these contenders lol. Neither one of those beings predate creation and The Phoenix is only the spark of Life and the sum if all Psionic energy throughout all of time. Although she may bed able to destroy and create realities, she herself is only exists because of one, and even though she resurrects, she dies as well. She is tied to the universe, where Michael is not. If one were to destroy all psionic energy, and creation itself, I'm not sure Phoenix would go unharmed, but we know Michael would. And Odin???...lol...yeah
Now PR MM is a heavy hitter but as I said before, I don't see how his feats would defeat Michael IMO. For one MM is a human, whereas Michael is not, his durability without his powers, is still that of a mere man, which is infinitely less than that of Michael's. Also, MM's feat of repairing the Universe with this finger was the same thing Michael did. Michael was constantly repairing DC when The Presence left his creation. Every second, he was bleeding into creation and repairing the damage that was being done by the absence of God, while he was fighting Lucifer and severely weakened form the battle. Also, a lot of times I see people use collateral damage as a reason or victory. I don't see how that works here.
It is hard to call him just a "human". He was exposed to energy from the beyond realm a realm which makes the infinte marvel multiverse like a drop of water in the ocean that is beyond. And so what if he was a human before and who cares that micheal is an angel? Hulk has beaten gods and gone toe to toe with zeus yet he is still human. If you want to take away Molclue mans powers we could make it pure h2h against micheal as both human like beings. The thing with MM reparing was it was in a moment and done while he was doing other things. He reparied part of the multiverse from beyonders temper tantrum with one finger. What you sound like Micheal did was a job that required doing not something with hsi finger. And damage maters since if you cant tank it you are ko at the least
Hulk punched Zeus a few times and was nearly beaten the death, I'm not sure if that was toe to toe. Michael smacked Spectre away twice I believe, and Spectre is far beyond Hulk, Zeus, or any other God in Marvel. I don't see how that is relevant. Also, as I said, Michael was already repairing the Universe long before the fight with Lucifer. He was in a state of bleeding his power into creation over and over, while fighting a being who had multiversal power just as he has. MM was not tasked with constantly repairing a continuously decaying Multiverse, only repairing what was destroyed by Beyonder. I'm not taking away from that, but Michael had a big task as well.
1) MM warps reality but is still confined to the laws of the Universe, whereas Michael is above any such laws as he created his universe and all power within it.
-__- the laws of the universe? His power source is beyond the multiverse! What is confining him? You say he is above laws and what not but MM power is beyond creation. Something far beyond micheal in power.
Show me where MM has power beyond creation? Beyond the Marvel Universe is not beyond creation. Even Beyonder was from a home Universe and he was more powerful than MM so I don't understand what "beyond creation" powers you are referring to. DC has shown The Presence and Lucifer in The Primal Monitor, which is a place that is beyond the known Comicverse. It is the canvas in which the universe are drawn on, basically the blank pages of the comic. That is beyond creation. But I am not sure if Marvel works the same so if you can show me some scans I will agree, if not, at least further explain to me.
2) MM destroying all of creation should not affect Michael because Michael has existed before any known Universe or matter was even an idea. He predates creation and MM does not. In fact, everything MM is, Michael is the creator of in DC. Reality warping is not a problem for Michael.
It is not just him being able to destroy creation but being able to tap into a power that is BEYOND creation. Not only does marvel have higher levels of infinity. Where Cube beings can do multiversal stuff and are still dwarfd by others.
Michael himself is beyond creation...that is why I don't see how having power that is beyond creation will affect a being who is beyond it as well, but that sound interesting...can you explain the different levels of infinity?
3) Even if MM manages to destroy Michael completely, he would most likely be destroyed himself because Michael's power would wipe out all of creation around them. After the blast, Michael would simply walk out of the destruction unscathed once again, while MM would be obliterated. What I am saying is, destroying millions or billions of dimensions means nothing to a being who embodies the power of endless creation and hold infinite power inside of himself to create endless universes just as easy.
Marvels dimensions work diffrent from DC. Ya see in marvel our multiverse exists from the dimensoins 2.6 to 6.2 dimension wise. LT exists on the 16th dimension. Already we have things that dwarf versions of infinity. Dwarf multiverses. Surpass the power micheal put out in creation. And molcule man destroyed billions of them! that is beyond creating the infinte dc U to me.
MM destroyed billions of Realities I thought? Realities are different from Multiverses IIRC. And also, using that information, would;t it depend on where the fight took place then? You have a being who predates creation, verses a being who you ays have powers beyond creation right? That sounds like at least a stalemate because If the Universe is neutral, it wouldn't matter how much power MM pulled from "beyond" because Michael could simply exist beyond that. That is why I wanted to se where MM has ben able to live outside of known creation.
4) One thing I also noticed about MM is that he was seemingly like MJJ. He was a POWERFUL Reality warper, but like MJJ, he was restricted to working inside the boundaries of Reality itself, meaning he needed reality to function with his powers. Michael created all realities and can destroy them just as easily, or warp MM to a place void of reality.
Where does anything even remotly like MJJ hapen for MM? His powers stem from something beyond creation. Not matter or anything else. That is his source. Creating does not mean destroying. His power can destroy him as shown when he ya know DIED.
MJJ was powerful within reality. But when he was teleported outside of it, he was powerless. That is why I say, show me where MM could exist in the marvel version of The void, or The Primal Monitor? From what I hear, MM can manipulate all there is within creation, but has he been SHOWN to be able to both LIVE and OPERATE outside of it?
There are many reasons why I believe Michael would put up a great fight, and could even win, but before I get chewed out for going against marvel, it is obvious that MM wind due to how "OP" the comic made him, logically however Michael could take him.
If we go by logic MM puting up any fight against beyonder gives him the win as beyonders power dwarfs both Micheal an Lucifer.
If we go by logic, MM putting up any "fight" against Beyonder shows that he was brave...not a testament to his power since after all, Beyonder dwarfed his powers too right? We truly have no idea what type of fight Michael, or LT would have given Beyonder because they never actually fought him. So why I do understand that reference, I don't think it can apply to beings who are this insanely powerful. But I still stand on my opinion MM wins due to how he was written, but based upon capabilities and origins, Michael should make it a difficult fight.
Btw, I know you think this is a curbstomp but the thread said to explain, which is why I didn't just jump in and say "Oh MM murderstomps!". I explained why I think Michael could have a chance. if I didn't think he had one, I would have agreed with you lol.
@bronze_surfer: Out of all that you said, there are a few things you lack to understand...
Facts: Presence himself backs the Demuirgic power of Michael. This is not just limitless power to create but also the limitless power to destroy anything also. MM power is extremely powerful but it is still not backed by TOAA.
MM also has a weakness which was shown when Doom lifted the subconsious blocks in his mind. Lucifer alone could implant these subconsious levels again with possession of the infinite will of Presence.
Death does not have any hold on Michael. Lucifer was the only being able to kill Michael and that was with a godlike weapon.
MM would have no way of wiping Michael from existence AT ALL or being depowered but MM can be depowered as he has been in the comics (i.e. by subconscious mental blocks) Michael can only be destroyed by Presence. His immortality is backed by Presence himself.
Lastly, it is truly important to understand that DC is indeed set up in amore universal approach than Marvel. However when you look at them from their respective Realms and compare then we could easily say that if the Demuirgic power is indeed the god power of Presence then its safe to say that MM cannot touch this power because we all know that he has no godpower on the inside of him although he's extremely power at matter and reality manipulation.
@thezoneexpo: at the time TOAA did not exist as a charecter let's remember that. We must also remember that MM powers come from an equally powerful being as the presence, pre retcon beyonder who was essentially TOAA of creation larger than all of marvel. We are also going off of the logic that the presence is the same level as TOAA or Pre Retcon Beyonder which I don't agree with but won't really argue it as Lucifers and Sandmans connection to DC Canon is shady.
Do you believe that Michael, Lucifer, and Gabriel working together could beat the presence? I don't but If you do then that is an interesting argument to have. The demiurge is perhaps one of the greatest power sources in comics but I don't see it to the level you do. If it was as powerful as it was then The Prescence would have just sent Michael do fight the GEB but he appeared instead.
The argument of placing mental blocks on MM is actually an interesting one and would be a cool way to fight him considering how powerful he is currently. But idk what his mental resistance was after he lost his mental restrictions but personally I think he has some level but that's an interesting point.
Then the immortality is either selective as he died twice, or the prescence is not omnipotent, or he liked lucifer more. Death made it clear to lucifer after he lost to... whatever those weird gods where that went into his multiverse by poisoning his wings, that if he exerts himself to much she can claim him (and clearly does claim Michael in a sense as he dies). I have to re look at the lucifer Michael fight and re look at feats.
I still stand by MM winning for the sheer difference in power he has. Having a source equal if not greater than Michael, better feats of destruction and defense, and being able to fight Beyonder for a little cements it in my mind. But I can see the other side.
I honestly forgot about this thread and this site, thanks for commenting and bringing me back.
@bronze_surfer: i did not know you were still here! Damn, this was made by my first account a while ago....
Oh yeah, being the creator of a creation does not mean you are omnipotent. Lucifer has his own creation as well. And Beyonder already proved his power is not limitless, another sign of non omnipotence, and the MM is much weaker than him. Due to their respective feats in think this is a great fight and still is. A matter manipulator vs a matter creator, both on levels that normal entities cannot comprehend.
@bronze_surfer: You're a reasonable person that makes fair statements. I can respect that.
I understand the things you mentioned. However, I do believe that Presence is equal to or above Pre-Ret Beyonder though. This is due to certain aspects that took place with Beyonder. Presence has never really shown any weakeness but I will say that the Marvel and DC worlds are quite different in display of power and rank. Sometimes is is difficult to compare.
I also believe that GEB was just something that Presence himself wanted to handle.
Non the less I just believe that MM would come short to the demuirgic power due to it being the building block of all creation.
Please Log In to post.
Log in to comment