Michael Demiurgos (DC Vertigo) vs EoS Game Master Ushiromiya Battler (Umineko no Naku Koro ni)

Rules

This is EP8/End of Series Battler that was temporarily amped to Bernkastel's level (and ultimately stomped her until he threw the fight) due to them both being a Game Master. Endless Nine is allowed.

Micheal in this battle is to scaled to the infinite dimensional DC cosmology to make this fair.

Location: Indestructible City of Books

Both are in-character but serious.

whats the feat for michael’s opponent?

The problem with Sandman Abstracts is the rapid inconsistency with the rest of the DC Cosmology, and extremely depends on Pan-DC Cosmology interpretation of what their feats actually did and did not do.

So if you scale and gauge Michael from a standpoint of only reading Lucifer.

Michael's best feat would be literally preventing an unclear number of Universes, most likely only a Million Universes, from being destroyed every instant or moment. And it seems he needed to be in the Logos Tower to do it.

Now why do we say a Million number of Universes only?

Because of this scan in which one of the Lilim confirms that there were just a Million Universes in Lucifer's Creation, which was stated to be equal to Yahweh's. not Infinity of them, in each Creation of Sandman there were just a Million Space Time Continuums.

Meaning Lucifer and Michael are just Multi-Universal in the Millions and are barely even Baseline Multiversal. Without trying to Composite DC's Cosmology for them to scale for.

See? There were no Infinite Universes in Carey Lucifer Story Isolate. It was just a Million.

The only way to rectify this issue to use a Composite DC Cosmology Model which requires a billion number of Head Canons to attempt to unite DC's Contradicting Cosmology.

Since, the literally ONLY thing Carey's Spinoff Cosmology has anything of intrinsic commonality with the rest of DC's Cosmology is that the Multiverse/Creation/All of Existence is bordered and contained by a Source Wall, which is stated to be the edge of EVERYTHING.

That said, Lucifer and Michael transcend Time and Space and Infinity in all its entirety, including the Source Wall, but the scale of the Time and Space doesn't seem too impressive without Composite DC Cosmology Unity Backing.

Since Lucifer and Michael transcend the Source Wall anyway and the Source Wall is greater than all the Biggavursal Megaversal Infinite Dimensionals of DC's messy Metaversal Cosmology, it's fine right? No.

The Source Wall in Carey Lucifer is not the same size as the Source Wall in Mainstream DC.

So it is a problem to scale Lucifer and Michael to the Source Wall off of the Source Wall's showings in the rest of the DC Cosmology which is greater than its showings in the Carey Lucifer.

See, the problem is that the Source Wall's size changes as it goes from being Universe level to Multiverse level because DC's Cosmology evolves and the Source Wall was a concept when the idea of a Multiverse was not so well consolidated into DC's Cosmology at the time.

Earlier versions of the Source Wall was only Universe level because DC's Cosmology was barely Multiversal back in the day. And any mentions of a Multiverse was always an Outlier Cosmology overridden by the idea of a Universe only all of existence.

References of a Universe level Source Wall only was as so because writers did not concieve the idea of a Multiverse yet. But the idea is that the Source Wall contains EVERYTHING regardless if Universe or Multiverse. The size changes whenever writers add new contents to DC's Cosmology which always inevitably sits below the Source Wall until stories like Lucifer's Multiverse or the Dark Multiverse came.

Let's not forget that there are way too many inconsistencies between Carey's Lucifer and other Sandman and even classic Sandman stuff. Not just Mainstream DC contradictions. For example.

1. Elaine merged Heaven and Hell in the ending of Lucifer, but in Mainstream current DC, they're still intact.

2. Spectre fought Michael during the time Lucifer quit to Australia. But this doesn't make any sense because in Carey Lucifer, Michael was imprisoned by the time Lucifer quit.

3. Gods are created by Dream of the Endless. But in Mainstream DC, it is the God Wave that created them.

4. Pralaya creates the Multiverse every now and then. Which contradicts the creation with Mother Night and Father Time as well as Lucifer and Michael.

You are gonna have to find a way to solve this contradictions before you try to scale Michael and Lucifer under a United DC Cosmology.

@sungsam: Hm, I was going off of what everyone on every website (including Vine) has said about Michael and Lucifer. I don't usually take words at face value, but I've always heard people calling them omniversal (infinite-D or higher) for years upon years, which is the bare minimum requirement to fight this version of Battler IIRC, considering he is overall above Bernkastel and is the 3rd strongest character in the entire verse next to Aurora and The Creator. I assumed there was truth to the Micheal and Lucifer omniversal stuff considering literally everyone I see says they are at this level.

If they are as strong as you say, then this is the first (and biggest) accidental troll level/spite-tier match I've ever made in my 11+ years of debating, so my bad.

@zgtfreak: You didn't do anything bad. Lol

The problem Z, is that DC's Cosmology size CHANGES depending on the writer you ask. Even its origins change. That is the thing I'm trying to get across.

Grant Morrison said that DC's Cosmology was running on a lot of M-THEORY and BRANE COSMOLOGY, these two theories are only 11 Dimensional. He claims a Monitorid Origin Story. Not to mention the DC Multiversity Map only outlines 5 Levels of Existence instead of Infinite Levels of Existence.

JM De Matteis on the other hand states that DC's Cosmology has INFINITE DIMENSIONS and only under him most recently alongside Paul Jenkins is DC's Cosmology at its largest. JMD also claims that Presence is Omnipotent and beyond everything in DC. But this same guy's issues he writes claims that Presence created DC by himself without Lucifer and Michael. Or that Pralaya created it.

Neil Gaiman however, who is the ORIGINAL CREATOR of Lucifer Morningstar, DOES IN FACT CLAIM in the original Sandman that there were Infinite Universes (Dream of a Thousand Cats) running on a Quantum Cosmology with Wave Function (indicating that Gaiman probably uses Quantum Cosmology).

The problem is that MIKE CAREY who wrote the Spinoff of Lucifer CONTRADICTS the cosmology of everyone else's. It is Mike Carey who retconned DC in his own isolated Lucifer run that there were just a Million Universes. There were only a Million Gates for every Universe between Presence's Source Wall Multiverse and Lucifer's Multiverse indicating again there were just a Million Universes.

So how do we rectify this shit? Even Sandman stories contradict one another.

I already said before I think, DC Cosmics power levels DEPENDS on interpretation and Composite or non-Composite Cosmology scaling. It's a big hell of a mess.

Z, do you want us to ignore the fact that Mike Carey said there were just a Million Universes in his story many times and use the Cosmology of different Dc and Vertigo writers to scale for Michael and Lucifer? It depends on what you would deem acceptable.

It cannot be, that I shove my standards down your throat when it comes to Comic Cosmology. You and the other debaters who might join this thread have to decide.

@sungsam: I find it only logical to use the cosmology your story directly uses and not using a completely unrelated and or composite cosmology from different writers that have nothing to do with your story.

With that being said, that means I only consider Micheal multi-universal now, considering I find using other unrelated DC cosmologies as bias, unfair, and nonsensical. I've seen no one ever mention that Sandman cosmology is different; everyone I've seen for years have been using the largest cosmology ever for Sandman and acting like it was actually in the story.

These nigh-infinite contradictions are one of the main reasons (out of many) that I can't stand comics and never really read them. The only reason I even use comic characters vs Umineko and this version of Battler is because it's borderline impossible to find a manga/anime/VN character who is even baseline multiversal, let alone infinite-D/infinitely layered, otherwise I'd almost exclusively debate those forms of media since they are much more consistent (and interesting imo).

@zgtfreak: Well, not COMPLETELY unrelated stories. They're still DC. To call them unrelated stories kind of glosses over the real problem. The problem is totally imperfect collusion between different Comic writers.

Carey still agrees with other DC Writers like JMD that Presence created DC.

Lucifer and Michael GET THEIR POWER from the Presence. Their power respectively are 50% of Presence's power for each of them, but Presence however can take their powers away.

And Presence according to JM De Matteis is the Creator of an Infinite Dimensional Multiverse. But the problem is that the Presence's power changes depending on the writer. Some use this as a justification that because Presence is Infinite-D+ Outerversal according to a different writer outside of Carey and Gaiman that Lucifer and Michael are 50% Infinite-D+ in power as well.

The problem is that Mike Carey's take and portrayal of the Presence is just Multi-Universe level in his story, and JM De Matteis's Presence is above Infinite Dimensional or "Outerversal" as you would put it and is literally found in the Void beyond Voids beyond Infinite-D. And yes, SURE, there is only one Presence in all of DC no matter what writer. But the writers portray Presence fucking differently.

So some people like to scale Michael and Lucifer's Presence backed power from a portrayal of a Presence from a different writer who thinks Presence created the Multiverse alone without Michael and Lucifer. In fact, I used to be guilty of this, but I have to be 100% transparent.

But I don't know if this bullshit applies. I don't fucking know at this point. There isn't actually a correct way to look at this.

The Original Sandman under Gaiman stated that the Multiverse ran on a Quantum Cosmology with Wave Functions (Indicating that Gaiman probably considers Infinite-D Cosmology) and Lucifer's story under Carey is a LITERAL SEQUEL to a story that implies possible Infinite Higher Dimensions but the guy who wrote the Spinoff Sequel literally contradicts it and implies Multi-Universal cosmology. This isn't even the only thing Carey shitted over Gaiman in his sequel spinoff to Sandman. For example, Fenris is the Embodiment of Destruction in Lucifer even though we know in Sandman it is Destruction of the Endless who fits that role. It makes no damn sense.

So Carey is literally RETCONNING THE COSMOLOGY, of a story that is a prequel to his spinoff.

The further problem is that Sandman Overture (prequel to the Original Sandman that implies Infinite-D) literally says that Father Time and Mother Night created the Multiverse. Not Michael or Lucifer.

It's not really 'unrelated', it's more like LACK OF COLLUSSION.

So you get two Angel characters who created DC according to this writer Carey, in which in that story, DC is only a Multi-Universe, but the Carey story is a sequel to a probably Infinite-D Cosmology of the previous writer who created Lucifer and not Carey but thinks someone else created DC and not Lucifer and Michael. And the power of these two Lucy and Mikey get their power from the Presence, whose power varies and is is Infinite-D according to another writer named Matteis who thinks Pralaya created DC or Presence created DC alone. Whose cosmology contradicts the Carey story.

IT'S A CLUSTER FUCK.

You want to get a DC character who can SERIOUSLY scale from an Infinite-D Cosmology? Probably only Pralaya and the Presence under JM De Matteis's stories. But Michael and Lucifer? Nope.

Michael by a long shot.

Especially considering battler doesn't have any real power. Everything in Umineko is meta.
Featherine (Ikuko Hachijo) is making an interview of batter. She is trying to figure out the truth about what happened in the rokkenjima island. It turns out Kanon was the one who spread the story about beatrice the witch. The real story is: Battler's parent murdered everyone because they were greedy, they wanted to keep the heritage for themselves

^

@sungsam: Meeeh, at this point I'm thinking Michael and Lucifer should be banned from debates due to this. I'll just go with multi-universal since it is still the cosmology in their specific story. To keep this thread from literal spite however, I'll just make this an assumed infinite-D Michael.

You want to get a DC character who can SERIOUSLY scale from an Infinite-D Cosmology? Probably only Pralaya and the Presence under JM De Matteis's stories.

Hm, well that's good to know for future reference. Thanks.

Actually, on a side note, how do you think this version of Battler would fare against the Presence you're speaking of right now?

@cramem Oh boy, someone who just skimmed through Umineko on YT and saw the trick ending. You do know there is a magic ending where everything supernatural actually happened, right? We are clearly using the "Magic is real" version of Umineko. Since this is the case, I feel like I accidentally made Battler blink-stomp, but I'll use a hypothetical infinite-D Michael for the sake of argument.

@zgtfreak: Can I ask you why you evaluate Battler as the 3rd strongest character of the series?

IIRC he was actually killed in their fight with Bern and then resurected as a part of Ange world (this already should put Ange above him, shouldn't it?) And, to begin with, he was even able to enter CoB only because of Lambda's permission.

And this is not even speaking about him being bound by his own story as a Territory Lord, while Voyagers aren't limited by anything like that (and Bern&Lambda were actually referring to the entire Umineko including what happened in CoB as just one more story they played their roles in). So I really can't see any Territory Lord being above any Voyager.

Also, I can't remember Creator actually appearing in the story, so for me he always was more like some sort of state than the actual being.

Sorry if I missremembered something, was reading Umineko quite a while ago.

Endless Nine GG.......

@notanext: Battler is completely inferior to Bernkastel under normal circumstances, but them both being Game Master amped him to her level. In a raw battle, he borderline crippled her with one punch and a kick; she was powerless against him and asked Aurora for help. Once they began the game, Battler chose not to instantly win by not using the Golden Truth (what Ange used to beat Bern) so that Ange could learn what he was trying to teach her. If Ange wasn't there, after Battler beat the crap out of Bern, he'd pull out his Golden Truth and one shot Bern like Ange did.

@zgtfreak: Can't agree with you. The Golden Truth Ange pulled out was due to her becoming the Witch of The Ressurection and "creating Golden Land inside her soul". Pretty sure she was the only one who could do this via being witch from the future.

Also, even this doesn't change the fact that there is major difference between Voyagers simply playing their roles in the story and those for whom this story is everything they have. All the battles were happening in-story, and what Battler and Ange fought was not Bern herself, but role she chose in Umineko. Territory Lords can't really do anything to Voyagers as they cannot affect anything outside of their world.

@notanext: Battler has demonstrated use of the Golden Truth, and since at that point in time he operated on a way higher level than Ange, he could've easily of done the same.

Bernkastel is above Battler, but since she decided to open a game and become a game master at the same time as him, Battler was amped to her level since they were of equal status. Her level wasn't decreased, Battler's was amped to hers because that's what usually happens. The fact she was surprised at Battler stomping her also shows he was amped to her level, as she didn't expect the sudden boost of his abilities and asked Aurora for help. Under this specific circumstance only, Battler was equal to Bern in raw power and overall surpassed her temporarily. Under normal circumstances, Bern stomps him.

@zgtfreak: It's not like being a Game Master allows you to use Golden Truth in any way you want. Basically, Ange said "I don't care about anything, everyone is alive". Nobody except her could have done it, simply because she was the Witch of The Resurection, not someone else. And saying that GM Battler is above Ange is kinda strange when she resurrected him as a part of her world along with everyone.

And it seems that we don't understand each other regarding Voyagers. What I'm trying to say is that no Territory Lord can reach the level of Voyagers, because he will always be bound by his story and unable to operate outside of it. And, at the same time, Voyagers have no such limitations, and when they are participating in some kind of story, their character is just a role they are taking and not the real them (like it can be seen in Bern&Lambda dialogue at the end of EP8 or with Bern's letter to Featherine).

So what I'm saying is that though in-story Ange defeated Bern it doesn't make her stronger than any Voyager as Voyagers are superior to the story itself.

@notanext: Battler could've done the same thing. Ange resurrecting everyone made her the Witch of Resurrection, not vice versa.

Under normal circumstances, yes, Territory Lords can never match Voyagers, but this is such a specific circumstance that even Aurora refers to it as a miracle (them both becoming Game Masters at the same time). Problem is Bern was still at full power despite being in the story, otherwise she could've used her Voyager self to one shot everyone once she started losing, unless you want to say that Battler's Endless Nine prevents her from doing that since Voyager Bern isn't in the story, which only complicates things and arguably makes Battler even more broken in a certain way. That would mean Voyager Bern can't effect him due to Endless Nine not letting her interfere with his story, and he can't effect her since she is above his story. That seems less likely imo.

To further back up that Battler was amped, he was completely powerless when Bernkastel and Lambdadelta were fighting, but then completely overpowered the SAME Bern moments later due to them both becoming Game Masters.

I was never making a case for Ange being anywhere near Bern. Ange was not amped at all and only beat Bern in the game itself, meanwhile Battler was amped and was stomping Bern in a straight up fight (something Ange was completely incapable of) before they even properly began the game.

@zgtfreak: I don't really think Battler could've done the same. I checked it now and it was even mentioned (in manga) that resurrection was possible only because Ange is "alive in the future". And, as I said, I can't see Battler above her seeing him being resurrected "inside her heart".

Regarding Bern, her Voyager self was not interfering because it had actually no sense since she came to kill her boredom and was interested in game itself, not in result of it (without speculating things like her being sympathetic to once whose fate is alike with her human past and that being the reason she was actually helping Ange to reach certain conclusion all the time... umh, I went to far). Like I said, with her letter to Featherine it can be clearly seen that the Bern who writes letter and the Bern meeting AuAu later are different entities. But, probably, this and other less important things are too vague, so I can see why you are being sceptical about it.

@notanext: Isn't Battler alive in the future as well though IIRC? Regardless, Battler could've used the Golden Truth to instantly win in multiple ways probably. The fact he didn't even attempt to use it shows he intended to lose for Ange.

As for Ange... nothing says she can't resurrect someone above her whatsoever, I mean she resurrected Beatrice, who had more raw potential than anyone there and could've possibly reached the same existence a Aurora, yet that didn't stop Ange from reviving her.

Problem is despite Bern being in the story, she should still be at full power (shown by the fact she is way beyond Battler before he gets amped), and nothing really implies she is any weaker. The only thing I acknowledge is that she was still way beyond Ange and only lost because Ange beat her in the game, which is completely different from her getting dominated in a straight up fight with power levels being accounted for like in her fight with Battler.

I actually think Ange is extremely wanked due to people putting her above Bern and Lambda, simply because she cucked Bern in the game alone and not in an actual fight.

@zgtfreak: Well, in biologicl sense he definitely is...

I don't think any Truth other than what Ange used would've end the game, firstly because the game itself was built around her. And what's the global difference between Battler's punches and Ange's eagle? Both took place in CoB, both were hurting Bern, both were in-game, so why do you consider first ones to be better feat?

So you're saying that in-game Bern was as powerful as her... um... "true self"? Never thought about it this way. I was always thinking that everything in-game is utterly inferior compared to outside of it, probably because it worked this way with human world gameboards. Need to think about it.

@notanext: Problem is Ange only conceptually beat Bern by beating her AT the game, while Battler was just straight up beating her in a raw fight. Bern lost to Ange because she lost the game, Bern was losing to Battler because he outright overpowered her in a real fight due to being amped.

Well everything in the story is inferior to anything above it usually, but as a being above the story, she shouldn't be weakened simply because she put herself in the story, as despite being in the story, she is still above it overall. Nothing states nor implies that Bern putting herself in the story weakened her compared to her true self.

Arguing concepts and beyond concepts is indeedly complicated.

If we apply infinite-dimensional to both verses, EoS Battler Wins, since of his hax like the Golden Truth or Endless nine. I don't even see Michael counter Red Truth, since Red Truth can make everything fact. There isn't a specific ability from Michael that says: ''LAWLS, I can counter the hax that make everything fact no matter what''. He hasn't an answer for it, basically. And Golden Truth and Endless nine can literally counter it. Michael lacks the feats to fight such hax.

Either way

This is a good fight

@zgtfreak: pathetic virgin Gilgamesh wanker

Micheal claps that fodder

Michael he has raw power, his more on Featherine level(Tho he loses to her, but he closed in power to her then Battler is to her.)

Micheal stomps that overwanked fodder.

Hm Battler does get his ass kicked here tho it would be mid diff or high diff.

Micheal wills fodder battler out of existence.

Nah Its the other way around, the golden witch would beat the Angel of power

Wait wrong thread

Haahhaha but No He doesn't blink shit, though he win mid to high diff

Michael wins.

Lucifer/Micheal stomps Fodder battler. Battler is too weak/wall level.