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#101 Posted by TheCheapParakeet (19 posts) - - Show Bio
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#102 Posted by Supermanthor (16218 posts) - - Show Bio

Still brothers stomps

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#103 Posted by bdelloidgrain2 (1916 posts) - - Show Bio
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#104 Posted by Mister_Surreal (9084 posts) - - Show Bio
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#105 Posted by Supermanthor (16218 posts) - - Show Bio
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#106 Edited by etriel (505 posts) - - Show Bio

@rajjar said:
@mister_surreal said:

@rajjar: Honestly, a monitor beating The Presnsce didn't make sense to me. I just thought that Mandrakk was one of those characters that defy logic. But I agree with Overivoid>Presence.

I mean, if the Thought Robot was able to feel the Presence and cover Limbo with a palm, where exactly would he be in this hierarchy?

And honestly, the Monitor power logic seems exactly how the Superflow works in Marvel's Eternity War; the moment you enter it, Tiger-God amped Black Panther can throw down with the most powerful abstract. However, if the Monitor Sphere still stands, all of the Monitors get to keep their status and feats, while at the same time conveniently ignoring all anti-feats that took place in the Sphere, since the Monitor would lose any advantage if the narrative was completely local, and not say, external to the sphere.

the presence exists outside the multiverse and time and space. and exists either in the void or embodies the void or exists beyond the void. IE, he exists beyond the monitor sphere.

morrison literally omitted the presence from the list of beings living in the silver city.

the presence was a white void with no prior self awareness before the multiverse existed.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/2/21/Void_Synnar.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20161208115924

god (god to allan moore referred to the presence) breathes in and breathes out. outside of time and space.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/420647803786887190/518110045481992193/RCO017.jpg

here. when parallax sent hal spectre to the infinite void the void beyond all voids (the overvoid) he gets empowered up by the divine presence by merging with the void beyond all voids.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/NgNG3KlVo7cppyVoVLa-Xw8cgJCqINt4imBCHQqlrBglCNm5yg6PcoqAkp5q3TpdNKT6oZTNoI0Zyw=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/q6i0-nl1US8k-qrRZqhSpa1VXEOraGQCiAKGU_yz1pXnjJNLwYjNBXybA3Dj4ScasopA33iKKz0l1g=s1600

here. statement that the void is just part of the presence.

No Caption Provided

the presence floats in the void as well.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/K5pgM0zQvQip2NtLvOUyijln7galKH6UV-OGzp7ruGmDh12xh6ksOV_-qfed9FeAhqBBoKa69eS86Q=s1600

the void beyond all voids (overvoid) is strongly associated with the presence. its part of the presence.

the monitor sphere meanwhile is smaller than the dark multiverse (which is time and space) the monitors are insignificant nothing to the presence.

meanwhile dax novu barely survives just staying in the dark multiverse and the void after thought robot kicked him off the monitor sphere. he needs help to multiverse hop while the presence exists everywhere and beyond time and space while dax novu depends on time and space to feed on to continue existing.

dax novu will come up with bullshit headcanons to counter this. he has no evidence for like a vast majority of the things he says.

he claimed that sandman comics were written by jack kiby (lie. theyre written by gaiman and many writers not jack kirby. sandman and co. is not kirby lore.)

he claimed that universe 51 was a megaverse (lie. morrison said its just a singular timeline)

he claimed that destiny of the endless and nabu were the same (lie again. destiny of the endless and nabu were in two different places during the sandman comics. doctor fate was trapped in the pocket dimension created by odin being offered to dream while destiny was somewhere else. funny because dream and destiny is more powerful than odin who trapped doctor fate unknowingly.)

he is the schizophrenic troll of the century. no. of the millenia.

the monitor wanker is under the delusion that because he makes the last reply. he all of a sudden wins no matter how stupidly wrong his hypocritical beliefs are.

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#107 Edited by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

@mister_surreal:

Mister. If you recall my statements from a few days ago, Etriel has been editing scans out of order. You've been lied to, right to your face. .

First, Mandrakk recreated Nil. Monitors deleted it all in Final Crisis. You were lied to by Etriel.

No Caption Provided

Second. The rules there are different in his new Nil and not the same. Right here at this point in the story, Mandrakk had not consumed Neon and Alden. He was not very powerful. He just popped out of the Over Void to say hello. He just consumed Omar Syn to gain enough power to fight Neon and Firebrand which is why Nth metal was deflecting his eye blasts. You were lied to by Etriel. Third. Quench shows up, who is the owner of Destruction incarnate gifted by the Over Monitor. Meaning, he says you are done, you are done. He wants you deleted, you are deleted. Simple as that. He is destruction. They go on to say that Mandrakk at that point in the fight is not reaching high output energy in offensive capability. However, total destruction power of Alden Quench far beyond the Presence and all the Endless is not capable of beating him. His durability is literally infinite. You were lied to by Etriel because that is what Etriel does, he never posts the scans. Just read back a few pages and I've already posted the scans that show all this man.

No Caption Provided

Why are you listeing to Etriel of all people?

No Caption Provided

He killed all of them, Etriel does nothing but edit out the scans that are actually telling the story...and I have been making fun of him for this for the last week or so. Etriel went on record saying both of these guys beat Mandrakk. Now...he said that because these scans were not posted to Google image search quite yet. And that is all he references at the time...until I came in about a month ago to correct him with the real time line.

No Caption Provided

Please Surreal, seriously...just read the scans.After this scene, Mandrakk had enough and eats Neon and Alden. He kills both of them and takes their powers. They both are sent to the Worlds Forge for unknown reason, and are brought back by the Over Monitor who gives them Narrative Control.

No Caption Provided

They state that nothing in all of Creation can stop Mandrakk except to change how he feeds on energy, so they shut it off and change it to only eat dark energy. And he now has no reason to go to the positive matter multiverse.

No Caption Provided

The power of Creation and Destruction (the power of michael and lucifer combined) is still nothing to Mandrakk and we have literal visual evidence of it.

No Caption Provided

Daddy Over Monitor Popps out of Mandrakk and lets Neon rewrite the story of Mandrakk and that is the end of it. He gives up.

No Caption Provided

And Mandrakk gives up.

So for a fourth time, Etriel lied to you. Why are you listening to a guy who does nothing to lie to you right to your face and hopes you dont actually read the comic? Seriously. I am asking directly, Surreal. Why are you listening to Etriel when he has a history of editing documents and scans and not telling the story in a linear fashion?

So...basically Id love to know why anyone at all would listen to Etriel at this point when he

Loading Video...

---

"The Dying God left your universe wounded, broken and defenseles."

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#108 Posted by Mister_Surreal (9084 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel: @daxnovu: I have no way to tell who is telling the truth at the moment so I’m just going to step out of this.

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#109 Edited by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

That's fair. It is certainly a conumdrum and a mess for onlookers, no doubt. So, if you step back in and have any specific questions, or want a scan, or need proof of something, let me know. I have all the scans in question and I wont do what he does and just post a random one without context.

The best one I can offer you is this. The forging monitor made everyone and everything. The positive multiverse is where all the Endless are and the Presence. Yes, the forging monitor made all of them. Dream states he cannot go to the Dark Multiverse and cannot stop Barbados from burning his library. He requires Superman and Batman to go investigate and stop it. He is powerless to help. That was the core foundation of the Dark Knight metal series.

No Caption Provided

Moreover, the Endless are all listed under the Monitors on the Positive Matter Cosmic Map. They've been in the canon since 2007.

No Caption Provided

Here, Unexpected Issue 8 cites that Mandrakk is not of Creation. He was not made by the Forging Monitor.

No Caption Provided

None of the Science Monitors were. They came after. None of the powers of Creation affect them. Dax/Mandrakk/CAS were made to go look at the Monitor, Anti Monitor and Forging Monitors Bullcrap shinnanigans and go see what the hell the problem was.

No Caption Provided

Mandrakk holds more power than the Forging Monitor, who made Michael and Lucifer. Who yes, are part of the canon now.

"If you look at the Multiverse, as Grant portrayed it in Multiversity, ideas and concepts that were created in Elseworlds are now part of the continuity. They weren't created in that fashion to start — they were stand-alone stories that were able to stand on their own weight, and the ones that had great value, we ultimately created worlds around them, and those worlds were ultimately incorporated into the Multiversity series — and into our Multiverse."

- Dan Didio - Senior Vice President of DC.

No Caption Provided

And not to mention, the entire issue of Final Crisis Revalations of The Presence speaking to Crispus Allen Spectre Directly...again Rox Ogama defeated this Spectre and the Radiant at the same time. There is so much talk with the Presence in this issue, that is is actually funny that anyone can just say nah, there is no presence in this continuity...

No Caption Provided

The Evidence is so vastly overwhelming that it is actually mind boggling anyone can cite the angel brothers would win this.

rox ogama already defeated The presence and the Spectre/Radiant and he did it with no Monitor powers at all. If you read any thread and any user opinion for the angel support, you wont see any reason given. Not one user in the history of this debate gives a reason why. Its just Michael and Lucifer stomp or win. No reason why. :\

---

"The Dying God left your universe wounded, broken and defenseless."

@mister_surreal said:

@etriel: @daxnovu: I have no way to tell who is telling the truth at the moment so I’m just going to step out of this.

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#110 Edited by etriel (505 posts) - - Show Bio

@mister_surreal said:

@etriel: I have no way to tell who is telling the truth at the moment so I’m just going to step out of this.

you can ask a multitude of users who know of dc's cosmology to various ends. nobody likes this guy nor agrees with him.

daxnovu ignores evidence and counters people he debates with, with often times blown out of proportion scans. and tends to change the subject.

for example. he claimed that sandman is written by jack kirby when basic research tells you this is not true.

he also claimed that destiny of the endless was the same as dr fate.

he also claimed that dragonball was owned by dc. we have a scan of this.

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#111 Posted by TonyStark6999 (2257 posts) - - Show Bio

Either of Team 1 can solo

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#112 Edited by Mister_Surreal (9084 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel: I don’t necessarily care that much as to ask around.

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#113 Posted by Mister_Surreal (9084 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel: Anyway, I can do some research and find out for my self.

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#114 Posted by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

The Void and the Monitor Mind are not the same thing. The white space in Vertigo is not the same. In Vertigo, Monitor Mind isn't canon. Etriel is confused by colors. Morrisonverse includes all of Vertigo in lore. Not the other way around. To say otherwise makes you look uneducated, Etriel (which we know you already don't read anything to begin with...soooo....)

Morrison wrote Final Crisis Revealations in which the Presence and God was referred to and speaking to Crispus Allen and the Radian a total of 31 times in the issue. He spoke directly to the Spectre through the Radiant. So you have no clue what you are talking about.

Etriel, you are easily the 2nd least educated user on this web forum outside of Sora. Here is a link to why the terms Morrison and Moore should never in a million years be referenced together. You using Moore to justify Morrisson is proof, once more, you have no clue what you are talking about, that you dont read anything, that you dont follow any of them online and you dont actually read comics:

"here. when parallax sent hal spectre to the infinite void the void beyond all voids (the overvoid) he gets empowered up by the divine presence by merging with the void beyond all voids." - Etriel

Here, we see Monitors talking about the same event and were totally unaffected by it, along with Flashpoint, COIE and other stories that affected CANON events in DC Comics history. Now whats your excuse? You have any references to Micheal, Lucifer or the Presence talking about non canon past events? Can you post any scans of them talking about past lore and continuity like this? I bet you cant.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

The white space in Vertigo isn't the Monitor Mind. Goodness. That is a huge stretch.

"the monitor sphere meanwhile is smaller than the dark multiverse (which is time and space) the monitors are insignificant nothing to the presence."

Made up nonsense. You've no proof of that. You just make up stuff. The Monitor sphere is bigger than Limbo. Limbo is 1D to Nil. And the entire Orrery of Worlds is inside of that. Whats your excuse for this?

No Caption Provided

"meanwhile dax novu barely survives just staying in the dark multiverse and the void after thought robot kicked him off the monitor sphere. he needs help to multiverse hop while the presence exists everywhere and beyond time and space while dax novu depends on time and space to feed on to continue existing. "

Meanwhile, Mandrakk states he was biding his time waiting for someone to stop by so he could eat them.

No Caption Provided

"its why Hawkmans nth metal mace can deflect Mandrakks lazer eyes"

Yea, its why his Nth Metal Mace absorbed the 10th metal creation crystal power Omar Syn had in the issue just prior. Fantastic. ^_^

No Caption Provided

"he claimed that sandman comics were written by jack kiby (lie. theyre written by gaiman and many writers not jack kirby. sandman and co. is not kirby lore.)"

I never claimed this. Kiddo. I said that Morrison stated all of Kirby's stuff is in U51. Here, again, have a taste.

No Caption Provided

I also said that the owners of DC said that all the previous canons are part of the larger collective now, here have a taste.

"If you look at the Multiverse, as Grant portrayed it in Multiversity, ideas and concepts that were created inElseworlds are now part of the continuity. They weren't created in that fashion to start — they were stand-alone stories that were able to stand on their own weight, and the ones that had great value, we ultimately created worlds around them, and those worlds were ultimately incorporated into the Multiversity series — and into our Multiverse."

- Dan Didio - Senior Vice President of DC.

"Morrison said it was a singular timeline"

Proof of this or get out. Show me a statement of him saying its a timeline and nothing more.

"he claimed that destiny of the endless and nabu were the same (lie again. destiny of the endless and nabu were in two different places during the sandman comics. doctor fate was trapped in the pocket dimension created by odin being offered to dream while destiny was somewhere else. funny because dream and destiny is more powerful than odin who trapped doctor fate unknowingly.)"

I never said this. What the hell are you even on about? You are talking about someone else entirely, I think. Not me, you are paranoid with your alt accusations. I do not believe this. I never did. Before anything else, Nabu and Over Monitor existed. You lose on this argument. Here is the proof. Show me where it said Destiny Predated everything and every multiverse ever. Show this to me, or leave the argument. Morrison explained that Nabu is a play on the word Nobu, which means fate and that the ultimate concept of fate is Nabu. It is Destiny. The highest form of it. It doesnt play like Destiny. It isn't a character. You are so uneducated on this. Fate doesnt play a role in the destiny of anyone or anything. Destiny of the endless holds the authorship of the positive matter multiverse. Fate is just the ultimate concept of Destiny that was existing before any multiverse. You understand nothing. Because you read nothing.

No Caption Provided

IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE I NEED TO DEBUNK YOU ON? ANYTHING AT ALL?

---

"The powers of Creation cannot stop me." Mandrakk - The Unexpected: Issue 8

@etriel said:

the presence exists outside the multiverse and time and space. and exists either in the void or embodies the void or exists beyond the void. IE, he exists beyond the monitor sphere.

morrison literally omitted the presence from the list of beings living in the silver city.

the presence was a white void with no prior self awareness before the multiverse existed.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/2/21/Void_Synnar.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20161208115924

god (god to allan moore referred to the presence) breathes in and breathes out. outside of time and space.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/420647803786887190/518110045481992193/RCO017.jpg

here. when parallax sent hal spectre to the infinite void the void beyond all voids (the overvoid) he gets empowered up by the divine presence by merging with the void beyond all voids.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/NgNG3KlVo7cppyVoVLa-Xw8cgJCqINt4imBCHQqlrBglCNm5yg6PcoqAkp5q3TpdNKT6oZTNoI0Zyw=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/q6i0-nl1US8k-qrRZqhSpa1VXEOraGQCiAKGU_yz1pXnjJNLwYjNBXybA3Dj4ScasopA33iKKz0l1g=s1600

here. statement that the void is just part of the presence.

No Caption Provided

the presence floats in the void as well.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/K5pgM0zQvQip2NtLvOUyijln7galKH6UV-OGzp7ruGmDh12xh6ksOV_-qfed9FeAhqBBoKa69eS86Q=s1600

the void beyond all voids (overvoid) is strongly associated with the presence. its part of the presence.

the monitor sphere meanwhile is smaller than the dark multiverse (which is time and space) the monitors are insignificant nothing to the presence.

meanwhile dax novu barely survives just staying in the dark multiverse and the void after thought robot kicked him off the monitor sphere. he needs help to multiverse hop while the presence exists everywhere and beyond time and space while dax novu depends on time and space to feed on to continue existing.

dax novu will come up with bullshit headcanons to counter this. he has no evidence for like a vast majority of the things he says.

he claimed that sandman comics were written by jack kiby (lie. theyre written by gaiman and many writers not jack kirby. sandman and co. is not kirby lore.)

he claimed that universe 51 was a megaverse (lie. morrison said its just a singular timeline)

he claimed that destiny of the endless and nabu were the same (lie again. destiny of the endless and nabu were in two different places during the sandman comics. doctor fate was trapped in the pocket dimension created by odin being offered to dream while destiny was somewhere else. funny because dream and destiny is more powerful than odin who trapped doctor fate unknowingly.)

he is the schizophrenic troll of the century. no. of the millenia.

the monitor wanker is under the delusion that because he makes the last reply. he all of a sudden wins no matter how stupidly wrong his hypocritical beliefs are.

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#115 Edited by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

Also, Here is Morrison saying that all stories are on the Over Monitor. Its the thing that lets all the other things exist. So yes, DB is in there too. Along with Archie, and popye it seems and Marvel and everything else.

Now...when you have a big scan that says the Over Monitor contains the MARVEL AND DC Multiverse and all the other story multiveres...and then poor little Etriel comes around pouting NUH UHHHH...who are you going to believe? Etriel...or the guy who wrote the book on the subject?

https://www.ign.com/articles/2015/10/21/grant-morrison-on-finishing-multiversity-and-whats-next-at-dc

No Caption Provided

Proof? Here is morrison at comic con stating he let Rox ogama take out Marvel's entire multiverse first along with U51 in final crisis

https://soundcloud.com/user-488861860/grant-morrison-multiversity-panel-at-sdcc-2015

This is a ton of debunking...dont you guys agree?

CAS and Mandrakk stomp. They are the editors of DC comics. Literally.

---

"The Dying God left your universe wounded, broken, defenseless and alone in the dark, where Mandrakk dwells."

@etriel said:
@mister_surreal said:

@etriel: I have no way to tell who is telling the truth at the moment so I’m just going to step out of this.

you can ask a multitude of users who know of dc's cosmology to various ends. nobody likes this guy nor agrees with him.

he also claimed that dragonball was owned by dc. we have a scan of this.

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#116 Edited by Mister_Surreal (9084 posts) - - Show Bio

@daxnovu: Hmm, I suppose you do have a good point and provided evidence that appears to be reliable.

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#117 Posted by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

@mister_surreal: One thing I need to clarify, because there is a fair amount, such as Sora who admitted to not reading Final Crisis at all, and Etriel who also hasnt read it, or the beginning of Multiversity in this panel below that explains the hierarchy:

No Caption Provided

I don't want to flood you with info specifically, I am responding to anyone reading and Etriel specifically, Surreal, but if you want to read too thats great, its a ton of info, im sorry. Its from 2007 to now's worth of info and thats a mountain of it and for that i apologize.

But, Etriels biggest nonsense post was the White void of Vertigo was the same as the Over Monitor. That is the biggest BS statement of all time, just as nonsense as Sora saying Darkseid is the Presence in Final Crisis. Yep, he did say that by the way. If you read this, from Grant, he explains it all perfectly in the interview.

No Caption Provided

Its

Monitor Mind

Source

Multiverse

The Source contains the Multiverse and the Orrery. However, as Final Crisis explained repeatedly, like 7 times I believe, they left the Multiverse. All the Multiverse stops at the edge of the Source Wall. There are two actually. Both are lies. Explained in the Dark Knight Metal series. Previously, they thought there was only one at the edge of each universe, that was found to be a lie in Dark Knight metal when he was breeched and Final Crisis Bleedspace was found beyond it. Here is an article on that because there are like 50 scans in comics explaning it and its too much to post.

On the cosmic map, there is a source wall past Nil. That is also just a title that showcases the actual link source wall back to the Monitor Mind. So that is the real source wall. Nobody ever broke it except the Science Monitors. CAS and Mandrakk broke it and it leads directly to the Monitor Minds.

Etriel thinks this Monitor mind in the scan above is the same as this from vertigo

No Caption Provided

He thinks they are the same...because they were both colored white. No other reason. Just because they are both white. Disregard what Morrison said in that the Monitor Mind contains all other Multiverses and it doesnt know how they got there and it didnt make them directly and its the ultimate god concept. Void in Vertigo is the same as Monitor Mind...CUZ ITS WHITE

No Caption Provided

Oh...just ignore that bit at the bottom about all of Kirby stuff condensed down to U51 that was discussed too. Anything else Etriel? Anything? So...I guess that is the end of the discussion right there. You were debunked on literally everything. Team 2 smashes.

---

"The Dying God left your universe wounded, broken and defenseless."

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#118 Edited by etriel (505 posts) - - Show Bio

the overvoid and the void beyond all voids in matteis's stories are the same thing since they're both white and both transcend all voids.

all your other scans dont say anything about addressing my argument. youre pulling scans out of nowhere that has nothing to do with debunking my scan saying that presence contains the void beyond all voids.

the marvel multiverse doesnt exist in dc unless there are copyright strikes for such an issue. and even then. you are already changing the subject.

you type a lot of things without saying anything.

furthermore. using lucifer scans is pointless because theyre not even canon to dc.

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#119 Posted by Aristeaus (922 posts) - - Show Bio

I have some questions...

If Mandrakk was changed to feed of Dark Matter instead of the Bleed, aren't all of his Bleed related feats irrelevant here? Doesn't that essentially make him featless?

Mandrakk was stated to be able to destroy universes with relative ease. That is a statement though. We know for a fact Michael and Lucifer created the multiverse itself. Aren't feats > Statements? Especially ones that are much, much higher then said statements?

If a bleed feeding Rox was stomped by some superman and some GL, why are we even debating this?

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#120 Posted by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

You got smashed into oblivion and are just pouting. Had author statements firing arrows into your face on the subject matter and you still can't accept it. Meaning you lost the debate.

I addressed all of your scans individually, you are off your meds it seems.

The presence was defeated by Rox Ogama, a monitor without his powers. He isn't the void beyond all voids. Monitor Mind is. All of Final Crisis revelations deals with the Spectre and the Presence. You are literally making up your own canon.

Yes, Marvel does technically. You are taking things so literally and that is a bad argument. You dont seem to understand what meta means and for that reason you should stop debating comics. Learn what meta means then come back and talk to me.

You post a lot of scans and edit the linear time line of events to make it look like something happened that didnt. :\

---

"The Dying God left your universe wounded, broken and defenseless."

@etriel said:

the overvoid and the void beyond all voids in matteis's stories are the same thing since they're both white and both transcend all voids.

all your other scans dont say anything about addressing my argument. youre pulling scans out of nowhere that has nothing to do with debunking my scan saying that presence contains the void beyond all voids.

the marvel multiverse doesnt exist in dc unless there are copyright strikes for such an issue.

you type a lot of things without saying anything.

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#121 Posted by Supermanthor (16218 posts) - - Show Bio

The Angel brothers lol stomps this overrated duo of Morrison

Online
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#122 Edited by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

Now? Yes. Monitor Mind gave Neon the power Mandrakk and CAS used to have. He gave them Narrative Control. Neon changed the power Mandrakk had and stated that its the only way to stop him. No other power narrative control can stop him. So rewriting his narrative any other way wouldnt work. Rewriting his power sets, or his story, or how he does anything else, anything at all but changing how he feeds on energy would not work. Neon states that directly. And that was only because Mandrakk was in his weakened non Monitor form at the time. And it was a gift from Over Monitor to Neon to stop Mandrakk. Once again, Over Monitor steps in to help. They stated nothing at all in creation, not even any other form of narrative control can stop him. Mandrakk gave up at that point and was not beatable, couldnt be harmed or physically beaten. They cut off his food supply and said please leave, and he did.

The Forging Monitor made Michael and Lucifer, they made the positive matter and dark multiverse. The Endless, Angels and Presence are in the Positive matter Creation. The Dark Matter Creation has no heaven and hell. Its empty. Which is why Neon and Alden were baffled as to why they were teleported to the Worlds Forge after Mandrakk killed them both. Over Monitor helped and sent them to the Creation/Destruction pool again and gave them new powers to use. They ressurrected themselves and came back with Narrative control. Dream of the Endless could not go to the Dark Multiverse. And yes, feats > statements. But, Mandrakk drilled holes through the entire infinite orrery of worlds and positive matter creation, including heaven, dreams dimension and more and nobody could lay a finger on him while he did it.

Because he wasnt? Rox Ogama was banished to the Orrery and all of his powers were removed. He took out the Presence, The Spectre and the Radiant without any powers and Nix Uotan was allowed to retain his monitor powers while all the other monitors self deleted. Nix came to help, snapped his fingers and let the the heros beat Rox Ogama. The GL core didnt win. Superman corps didnt win. Nix won that.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

The debate would then turn into how does the GL core and 52 supermen beat the Radiant and the Spectre?

---

"The Dying God left your universe wounded, broken and defenseless."

@Aristeaus said:

I have some questions...

If Mandrakk was changed to feed of Dark Matter instead of the Bleed, aren't all of his Bleed related feats irrelevant here? Doesn't that essentially make him featless?

Mandrakk was stated to be able to destroy universes with relative ease. That is a statement though. We know for a fact Michael and Lucifer created the multiverse itself. Aren't feats > Statements? Especially ones that are much, much higher then said statements?

If a bleed feeding Rox was stomped by some superman and some GL, why are we even debating this?

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#123 Posted by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanthor: Yes, we see you Supermanthor, we get it. We know your opinion is Michael and Lucifer > Presence. thanks so much. Here, have a lolli pop.

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"The power of Creation cannot stop Mandrakk." - The Unexpected: Issue 8

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#124 Posted by Helloman (28540 posts) - - Show Bio

Team one wins.

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#125 Edited by Supermanthor (16218 posts) - - Show Bio

@daxnovu: i tag you in my thread go there give your opinion

also i am having a better food

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#126 Posted by Aristeaus (922 posts) - - Show Bio

@daxnovu said:

Now? Yes. Monitor Mind gave Neon the power Mandrakk and CAS used to have. He gave them Narrative Control. Neon changed the power Mandrakk had and stated that its the only way to stop him. No other power narrative control can stop him. So rewriting his narrative any other way wouldnt work. Rewriting his power sets, or his story, or how he does anything else, anything at all but changing how he feeds on energy would not work. Neon states that directly. And that was only because Mandrakk was in his weakened non Monitor form at the time. And it was a gift from Over Monitor to Neon to stop Mandrakk. Once again, Over Monitor steps in to help. They stated nothing at all in creation, not even any other form of narrative control can stop him. Mandrakk gave up at that point and was not beatable, couldnt be harmed or physically beaten. They cut off his food supply and said please leave, and he did.

Ok. So, if he has no "food supply", and hes now Dark Matter fed instead of the Bleed, what feats do you have that would indicate he wins anything? Bleed feats are irrelevant now. Everything you posted was Bleed related.

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#127 Edited by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

Mandrakk didnt originally require any feeding, he did it because he loved to consume stories. Nothing more. After his defeat in final crisis, he was no longer a monitor and needed to feed on something.

The debate is not Mandrakk in Unexpected Vs Michael and Lucifer. The unexpected issue 7 and 8 just came out in January of 2019 and december of 2018, its brand new. And its the end of the Unexpected series. Nobody knows whats coming next with a new series.

The debate is CAS and Mandrakk in final crisis vs Michael and Lucifer. When Mandrakk was at his full power. It is very relevant. Even if users cannot accept that, the full power of Creation and Destruction, the same power that Michael and Lucifer used to create CREATION, was not enough to even remotely touch Mandrakk in this weak state. The power of the presence, and the Creation power of michael and lucifer couldnt stop Mandrakk in his weakened state, so I am just so baffled as to how anyone can say Mandrakk would lose this.

It was blatantly stated already...lol

---

"The Dying God left your universe wounded, broken and defenseless"

@Aristeaus said:
@daxnovu said:

Now? Yes. Monitor Mind gave Neon the power Mandrakk and CAS used to have. He gave them Narrative Control. Neon changed the power Mandrakk had and stated that its the only way to stop him. No other power narrative control can stop him. So rewriting his narrative any other way wouldnt work. Rewriting his power sets, or his story, or how he does anything else, anything at all but changing how he feeds on energy would not work. Neon states that directly. And that was only because Mandrakk was in his weakened non Monitor form at the time. And it was a gift from Over Monitor to Neon to stop Mandrakk. Once again, Over Monitor steps in to help. They stated nothing at all in creation, not even any other form of narrative control can stop him. Mandrakk gave up at that point and was not beatable, couldnt be harmed or physically beaten. They cut off his food supply and said please leave, and he did.

Ok. So, if he has no "food supply", and hes now Dark Matter fed instead of the Bleed, what feats do you have that would indicate he wins anything? Bleed feats are irrelevant now. Everything you posted was Bleed related.

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#128 Posted by Aristeaus (922 posts) - - Show Bio

@daxnovu said:

it is CAS and Mandrakk in final crisis

Forgive me if I am wrong, but the Mandrakk in Final Crisis was Rox. They are different characters.

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#129 Posted by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio


Well...both of them appeared in Final Crisis, which part of the story are you referring to? Mandrakk fought Cosmic Armor in Nil and was tossed into Monitor Mind. However, Rox consumed a bit of Mandrakks essence prior and he was mind controlling Rox's body during the final part of final crisis.

Rox was banished from Nil and stripped of his powers after Mandrakk was defeated. He was sent to the Orrery because he absolutely hated it there, it was his hell. All of his powers were removed but what was left was still enough to make him basically God. His first move was to take over Ultraman. He also ate the entire Continuua of Universe 51, which is all of Jack Kirby's stories and characters, and also the Marvel analogue of Universe 7 and 8. Take out the Presence, the Radiant and the Spectre.

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He was mind controlled by Mandrakk all the way from the Monitor Mind. So it was Rox's body, but Mandrakks mind. Yes they are different characters entirely.

---

"The Dying God left your universe wounded, broken and defenseless."

@daxnovu said:

it is CAS and Mandrakk in final crisis

Forgive me if I am wrong, but the Mandrakk in Final Crisis was Rox. They are different characters.

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#130 Posted by Archangel01 (1412 posts) - - Show Bio

Either of the archangels stomp

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#131 Edited by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

The entire issue of Final Crisis Revalations deals with the Presence speaking to The Spectre. In the very next issues of Superman Beyond Issue 2, a fallen Monitor then defeats the Presence as well as the Radiant and the Spectre. Are users not aware of this? The Presence lost that fight. How could Lucifer and Michael possibly win this?

The answer is clear. Unless you really believe in the misnomer and logical fallacy of The Presence being weaker than Michael and Lucifer?

---

"Come Closer, Superman. I need to eat you."

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#132 Edited by etriel (505 posts) - - Show Bio

@daxnovu:

oh look what i found from the new jl annual 2018 #1 issue! the source wall!

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do you know what this means dax boy?

the void and the overvoid are the same! the overvoid has been called the void twice!

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here again. jl annual 2019 #1 again.

the overvoid outside the broken source wall is called the void again!

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man not looking good for you anymore dax boy!

your source wall universe theory is bullshit becauuuse....

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and you dont believe me? here is another scan.

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and again!

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as i said. the presence is not bound to universe 51 because he has the OVERVOID inside him!!! voids exists outside the source wall only!!!!

the void is just another name for the overvoid. lol. so this scan here still applies!

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and this!

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we know the overvoid and the void are the same. check.

we know the source wall that was destroyed was the multiversal source wall. check.

what lies beyond the multiversal source wall is the overvoid/void check.

presence contains the void/overvoid check.

so.... check mate!

either way. your universe 51 presence is debunked! your 'overvoid and void not the same' theory is debunked!

the presence > void beyond all voids > overvoid > monitor sphere. and you cant take it! lol!

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#133 Edited by etriel (505 posts) - - Show Bio

@soratoumiga hey sora. check this. lets see how daxnovu slithers his way out of this. this time.

'overvoid and void are not the same' lol! stupid fanboy theories this guy has! there isnt even a void between normal universes.

yet the presence is beyond the void and beyond the multiverse but this guy still says presence is only universe 51! lol!

@mrstranger

i believe held up my end.

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#134 Posted by Soratoumiga (2136 posts) - - Show Bio
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#135 Posted by UltraPhoenix (36 posts) - - Show Bio

@daxnovu Will you respond to Etriel's post? Have you caught up on the JL annual issue he mentioned?

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#136 Edited by etriel (505 posts) - - Show Bio

@ultraphoenix:

how can he even respond?

his argument was that the void and the overvoid are not the same. despite that even Zillo Valla even called the Overvoid as simply "The Void" as well.

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but that doesn't count. right?

There are no VOIDS between the Universes of DC, so his argument of the Universe 51 theory containing Voids and stuff to accomodate his theory that outerversals like lucifer and presence are bound to uni 51 is non sense because several Sandman characters have appeared in a place logically beyond any Universe and any Bleed Space.

voids is a dimensionless construct. universe 51 is a dimensioned construct.

Furthermore, we see Lucifer destroy Multiple Universes. We see Morrison confirming Universe 51 to be just a single timeline.

we don't even need the JL Annual to prove my point.

Furthermore, the Presence, Lucifer, Destiny and the Endless and etc. are not even creations of Jack Kirby. So even if Jack Kirby's lore was restricted to Universe 51, this is a total lie and would not apply. Because Jack Kirby didn't do jackshit at all in the creations of those characters. in fact dc needs permissions from gaiman just to use dream and death. how did the endless become kirby lore?????

hell the new gods are kirby lore and theyre in the sphere of the gods. this is so stupid.

furthermore, the Spectre who exists in the Sphere of the Gods already debunks the idea that the Presence exists only in Uni51 because because his servant and other angels and the silver city exist in a higher sphere.

every facet of his argument is a lie.

it doesnt matter what daxnovu believes. he is a universally hated user. what matters is that im right.

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#137 Posted by Supermanthor (16218 posts) - - Show Bio

This crap getting ridiculous

Screw Morrisons cosmology

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#138 Edited by EineFaust (217 posts) - - Show Bio

I have no reason to put Dematteis's interpretation(cosmology) above interpretation.

At least, current DC cosmology is based on Morrison's and Snyder's who inherited Morrison's cosmology.

I have no idea why you hate Morrison's interpretation.

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#139 Edited by etriel (505 posts) - - Show Bio

@einefaust said:

I have no reason to put Dematteis's interpretation(cosmology) above interpretation.

At least, current DC cosmology is based on Morrison's and Snyder's who inherited Morrison's cosmology.

you literally argued before that a confirmed on panel 5-dimensional construct contains infinite-dimensional constructs in other fictions. you are okay with morrison infringing copyright violations on other fictions dc does not own.

but you hate it when we are applying a still canon interpretation of matteis to the outer-void presence? why? that alone proves we really dont need to concern ourselves with your judgement. you really need to rethink your standards a little bit better.

in fact. nothing in morrisons cosmology really contradicts that matteis presence contains the void inside him. according to morrison. the presence doesnt even exist in the silver city by his absence in the list of beings in the silver city. only the voice does.

even if you do not like matteis's cosmology (which i dont really give a damn either way. no offense. this is dc cosmology. not morrison. and morrison is not the end be all for dc's cosmology either way).

matteis presence still autoshits on the overvoid for containing the void beyond all voids inside him.

I have no idea why you hate Morrison's interpretation.

what morrison cosmology?

morrrison drew destiny of the endless chained to his book on top of the source wall itself on his freaking map and who is more powerful than destiny? who created the book? the presence himself. but your crew didnt believe that and instead came up with non sense "nabu is destiny" bullshits which is literally debunked by the fact that destiny and nabu were in TWO separate locations at the same time during the arc of the gods bidding for the key to hell.

nabu was in the odin pocket dimension as a result of the justice society story while destiny of the endless is the one who led dream to a series of chained events leading to the gods themselves.

you should really stop because this is getting repetitive drivel on your end.

hating on him? what you see here is not morrison cosmology. it is dax novu's wank lies about morrison's cosmology blown out of proportion.

dax argued that the void and the monitor mind are not the same? i debunked that to shreds. snyder thinks the overvoid = void. he argued against that.

morrison never said that the endless are restricted to universe 51. this is a lie by dax novu. again.

if you are going to criticize me for disliking morrison and snyder cosmology. tell daxnovu about how wrong he is for saying overvoid =/= void even though theyre just synonymous to one another. tell him how destiny of the endless is literally on top of the monitor sphere. tell him that.

you do not support morrison cosmology. you support personal perception of morrison cosmology which is not the same thing,.

heck. snyder used spectre who is still canonical to the matteis spectre runs in the 2019 jl annual. snyder uses matteis cosmology as continuum as well. makes no difference. so we have no reason either to discount matteis's cosmology so long as it does not contradict so much if at at all

we do not hate the morrison cosmology. we just merged what happens if put together with presence's most powerful portrayal. we use what is reasonable of dc's cosmology. if anything. i just used it.

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#140 Posted by Yamiyodare (1097 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 stomps hard.

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#141 Edited by EineFaust (217 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel:

So,you hate Morrison's cosmology because you hate DaxNovu ?

I am not with Dax though, personal bashing is futile. To make thread to bash each other is more futile.

BTW, it is mere fact ,not my personal interpretation that Morrison confirms that like omniverse, Hypertime encompasses every fictional unjiverse combined. I quoted source.

And, I don't care whether Morrison's setting violate copyright or not.It has nothing to do with debate.

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#142 Edited by etriel (505 posts) - - Show Bio

@einefaust said:

@etriel:

So,you hate Morrison's cosmology because you hate DaxNovu ?

I am not with Dax though, personal bashing is futile. To make thread to bash each other is more futile.

BTW, it is mere fact ,not my personal interpretation that Morrison confirms that like omniverse, Hypertime encompasses every fictional unjiverse combined. I quoted source.

your personal opinion would mean that 5D imps are OUTERVERSAL and infinite dimensional because hypertime is contained in the 5th dimension which contains things in fiction that transcend space and time like beyonder, reinhard and all outer gods. which is ridiculous because you are arguing things that transcend time are inside of time. it would make every dc cosmic more powerful than previously, including the presence and lucifer and it benefits them as well. but we dont care

but Wow. nice strawman.

i dont hate morrison's cosmology. we use it all the time. we just hate YOUR interpretation of morrison's cosmology which is utter garbage.

according to morrison. destiny > monitor sphere. who is stronger than destiny? presence. you didnt believe that. so you are a hypocrite. you have NO right to lecture me about hating morrison.

but we merge it with the writings of other dc writers. morrison did not say "my cosmology is better than others" all he did was add limbo and the monitor sphere above the hierarchal multiverse and below the source wall. he just inserted stuff in between. the physical below which changes in size to other writers.

which just powers up everyone who was above the multiversal source wall from the start before this.

thats it. you people keep saying that matteis and gaiman are all in universe 51 which is completely non sense.

there is nothing from morrison that suggests that the presence does not contain the void inside him. there is nothing from morrison to suggest that the presence the endless and lucifer are bound to universe 51.

And, I don't care whether Morrison's setting violate copyright or not.It has nothing to do with debate.

it has everything to do with debate because you are trying to argue that matteis's perspective is not canon.

but you are saying that shit not published by dc is canon to hypertime? things that are not dc that contradict dc are canon to morrison but matteis (who is still relevant and canon) his perspective that doesnt really necessarily refute morrison (no really) at all is irrelevant? that is a hypocritical standard on your own.

i mean morrison even thinks destiny exists beyond the monitor sphere. why would the presence who is more powerful than destiny be any different? hm?

wut?

if you do not see the problem with your reasoning. you have to seriously re-evaluate your arguments and think again for months before you reply once more.

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#143 Edited by EineFaust (217 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel:

Please don't post long sentence.

I will not argue with you because it is futile.And,i am neither native nor good at english.So,writing

long sentence is bothersome for me.

But,I posted evidence(Morrison's interview about Hypertime) to prove my opinion.

Whether you think it is ridiculous or not doesn't matter.

If you think it is ridiculous, prove it with official evidence.

BTW, I didn't refer to Destiny.It is Dax. Don't confuse.

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#144 Edited by etriel (505 posts) - - Show Bio

@einefaust said:

@etriel:

But,I posted evidence(Morrison's interview about Hypertime) to prove my opinion.

Whether you think it is ridiculous or not doesn't matter.

If you think it is ridiculous, prove it with official evidence.

BTW, I didn't refer to Destiny.It is Dax. Don't confuse.

hypertime = space time

oblivion (marvel) exists outside of space and time. he cannot be in hypertime because of this

beyonder (marvel) exists outside of space and time. he cannot be in hypertime because of this

outer gods (lovecraft) exist outside of space and time like azathoth and yog sothoth. they cannot be in hypertime.

i gave you references from three different characters debunking this silly notion. done.

no i did not confuse. i just argue against you that you hate the fact that destiny of the endless is above the monitor sphere. you are the one who hates morrison cosmology. not me. lol

you cannot argue because you only have debunkable statements on your arsenal.

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#145 Edited by EineFaust (217 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel:

So,please prove it with official set, not your opinion.lol.

I quoted sources that hypertime encompasses every fictional world and real world combined, Mandrakk devoured everything in existence. You denied them because you think it is ridiculous.

But whether you think ridiculous or not doesn't matter for me. If you want to debunk me, please show me official evidence to debunk sources i quoted in previous threads.

Your reasoning is interesting though,You don't have official quote.

So,please post official evidence to prove your statement, not your opinion.

If you say that i am wanker without basis, you must prove it with official evidence.

Your reasoning debunk nothing because it is not official set.

May i quote official sources again and more?

If you defy them, please disprove them with official sources,not your opinion.

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#146 Edited by etriel (505 posts) - - Show Bio

@einefaust said:

@etriel:

I quoted sources that hypertime encompasses every fictional world and real world combined, Mandrakk devoured everything in existence. You denied them because you think it is ridiculous.

But whether you think ridiculous or not doesn't matter for me. If you want to debunk me, please show me official evidence to debunk sources i quoted in previous threads.

does hypertime contain the overvoid? overvoid is fictional afterall. no? morrison is just being metaphorical. lol. its not to be taken seriously. and you are a hypocrite because you dont even really agree with what you just said.

there are no sources where hypertime contains timelessness and spacelessness. it only contains worlds and that is time and space. hypertime is just time and space. you have not posted such a thing.

morrison only meant things that contain time and space.

here. oblivion's realm has no time. "somewhere that has no time nor place"

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you might or may just be a backup account of daxnovu crawling out here because he lost the debate trying to approach me differently. lol. all of a sudden you show up way after december? suspicious much. let it go man

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#147 Edited by etriel (505 posts) - - Show Bio

@einefaust:

think im lying?

here some more! beyonder exists outside time and space. the beyondrealm is a universe outside of time and space and CANNOT be in hypertime which is a time multiverse

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- beyond realm is a place of nothingness. oblivion's realm is a place of no time and space

- if hypertime contained everything in fiction. how come we dont see it in marvel? see?

- hypertime is just a normal space time multiverse. cyborg confirmed this.

- beyonder and oblivion are BEYOND the multiverse and space and time.

- hypertime does not contain things in other fictions. that is ridiculous as i just debunked

scans already debunk your interpretation.

i gave you three scans already. you only have 1 misinterpreted interview. fite me.

i can give you more and more and more and more scans from more fictions having characters exist beyond time and space. its so easy to debunk this. REALLY.

unless you have 10 different writers saying that hypertime contains their non-dc fictions in hypertime, you cannot argue such non sense.

you really need to stop. your argument is really done. you really need to stop taking fancy words that morrison uses metaphorically out of proportion.

your monitor wanking hoaxes are over.

and tell dax to stop sending more of his brainwashed groupies like yourself here

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#148 Posted by etriel (505 posts) - - Show Bio

anything else i need to debunk?????????????

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#149 Edited by bdelloidgrain2 (1916 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel said:

anything else i need to debunk?????????????

Nicely debated.

I'm even more confused as to why this is still a thread... I thought everyone knew Michael and Lucifer would stomp. Despite how powerful Mandrakk and Thought Robot are, Lucifer and Michael are just above them.

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#150 Posted by EineFaust (217 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel:

Did i say that i want to hear your "reasoning" or "interpretation"?

Please provide "official" evidence to debunk evidence i have posted.You deunk nothing and merge other writer's interpretation with Morrison's.

If you say merging other setting is hilarious, you should not do it too.

BTW,which Michael and Lucifer do you discuss? Mike Carey run?

If so,they are shaped by mortal's belief like Presence confirmed.

@bdelloidgrain2:

Based on what?