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#51 Edited by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

It wasn't the original Nil. They said Nil was destroyed. They were in a Nexus that was Mandrakks new Monitor World he dubbed Nil.

This version of Mandrakk isn't the same as the original in Final Crisis. Who at Full power, was the Editor of DC Comics that both CBR and DC editors confirmed as true. He lost his power. You saw the scans of that in that other post. You were aware of this.

Simple low level magician? He was stronger than the Presence and all the Endless. He was stronger than Barbados and Dream of the Endless specifically by infinite degrees. And that was just Neon. Quench was even stronger than Neon and Mandrakk literally killed both of them one scan before the first you posted. Which you were too scared to show.

Here, Mandrakk kills the same guys you said just beat him.

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Here, the dead souls of both of them are teleported to the Forge because there is no Heaven or Hell in the Dark Multiverse. The Dark Multiverse doesn't house The Presence, or Michael, or Lucifer or any version of death that you've read in DC thus far. It is another fictive entity on its own and when you die there, you are sent to the World Forge's waters/lava and you end up swirling around in it until you vanish completely. You don't die. You are erased from existence. There is no God there. There is no Spectre, or Presence, or angels from Vertigo. Dream of the Endless cannot enter the Dark Multiverse. The Presence did not create The Dark Multiverse. The Presence did not create the normal Orrery and Multiverse. The 3rd Monitor did. He made the Presence and all the Endless. None of them have any power in the Dark Multiverse.

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"The Dying GOD left your universe wounded, broken and defenseless."

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#53 Posted by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

@felgrim31:@daxnovu: and all of that got retconned when new 52 was retconned. Not even a tiny bit of effort there.

No, it didn't. N52 wasn't retconned, it was expanded on and some stories were retconned. Great for my case when there this one place called Limbo in Final Crisis where all retcons go anyway. Did you read Final Crisis, you know the big plot point was that the Science Monitors are immune to retcon right? But, all of Jack Kirby stories and characters, including Vertigo and the angels are not immune? And that Destiny of the Endless's book was a center piece for the story inside Limbos retcon?

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"Nothing in all of Creation can stop Mandrakk"

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#55 Edited by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

Seems you didn't read Final Crisis either. If you aren't going to read anything, why are you debating?

@felgrim31 said:

@daxnovu: didn't even read your response fanboy.

"The Dying God left your universe wounded, broken and defenseless."

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#56 Posted by MiracleComeBack (2128 posts) - - Show Bio

either michael or lucifer solos

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#59 Posted by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

Alden Quench, Neon and Mandrakk all said that nothing in all of Creation, Dark Multiverse included, could stop Mandrakk. That includes the angels.

either michael or lucifer solos

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"The Dying God left your universe wounded, broken and defenseless. Here, at the end of all stories, where Mandrakk dwells."

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#60 Posted by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

It is time to end this debate now that The Unexpected #8 is out, once and for all. One guy who didn't read the comic said that Quench and Neon were "low level Wizards" Yea, ok buddy. Low Level wizards who can destroy the entire infinite Multiverse twice over.

Here is not one, but two statements of total Multiversal level destruction by Neon and Quench. Anyone who disagrees needs to sit down.

Not once.

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But Twice

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Mandrakk's plans were to go eat the Presence, all the Angels and all in Heaven and Hell. Lucifer and Michael were on the Menu. Don't even try to challenge me on that by saying the Endless and angels arent a part of this story, because Dream of the Endless is a central figure in these arcs. Mandrakk is well aware of these characters and Rox Ogama already took a bite out of the Presence in Final Crisis and made it flee for its existence, also murdering the Spectre and Radiant.

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Here, all of Creation was a buffet for Mandrakk and nothing was going to stop him.

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Why wasn't it going to stop him? Because this fight was actually meta, they were stories fighting each other. They were above and beyond physical matter, no reality warping here. No particles. They are all above such things. They are narratives fighting each other and things beyond creators battling for supremacy

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Just stories

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Total Multiversal and Creation destruction was moments away

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Neon and Quench can take out all of Creation. The entire thing. All of the Dark Dimension and the Positive Matter normal Creation. Mandrakk ate and beat both of them with his bare hands at the same time.

Quench. Dead.

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Neon. Dead.

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Why is Mandrakk the most powerful? Because he isn't from Creation. And nothing in Creation can stop him except his daddy Monitor Mind, which defeated him again at the end of this story for a 2nd time.

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The power of Creation itself cannot stop Mandrakk in his weakest form ever shown.

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Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

So now that you are all educated on the subject of Mandrakk. And you have actual scans showcasing total Creation control and Multiversal level destruction power. You can all stop with the Mandrakk/CAS vs threads right? Because this version of Mandrakk is a weakened form of the character in comparison to what it was in Final Crisis. It was basically nothing by comparison. Dream of the Endless was crapping himself over Mandrakk. And Barbados who forged all of Creation didn't register in comparison to a weakened Mandrakk.

End of story. Mandrakk was going to eat Michael and Lucifer and all the Endless as soon as he was done with Neon and Quench here. What he didn't count on was daddy Monitor Mind stepping in again and saving everyone.

Proof in the comic was just given. The debate is over. @majinblackheart please lock the thread, the answer was given directly in the latest issue of The Unexpected: Issue 8.

Beyond that, his little brother Rox Ogama, without any of his powers, already defeated the Presence back in final crisis. Michael and Lucifer are not on par with the Presence.

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"I am the Anti God. Here now to consume your stories."

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#61 Posted by jamespacker (533 posts) - - Show Bio

Mandrakk is on another level

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#62 Posted by Rijehu (1536 posts) - - Show Bio

Seems like the only being who can stop Mandrakk is Mxy then.

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#63 Edited by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

The combined power of Creation itself, all of Creation in a literal sense could not stop Mandrakk in his weakest form. So no. They also say in this issue nothing in Creation can stop him. Not even Imps. It was quite literally stated and cannot be argued. Even Dream of the Endless was horrified and powerless by comparison.

@rijehu said:

Seems like the only being who can stop Mandrakk is Mxy then.

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"The Dying God left your universe wounded, broken and defenseless."

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#64 Posted by Rijehu (1536 posts) - - Show Bio

@daxnovu: Ever since I spoke to you about the meta, I've been looking into that. Featwise, despite what Morrisonverse may infer, Mxy has been a meta character in every since of the word. I explained this on the Mxy vs Mandrakk post recently because I had no idea this was even a thing. Go look up his feats and his appearances and see what he has done. Ide argue he makes the OM look insignificant. And a Mxy has a consistency in those crazy feats. It's insane.

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#65 Edited by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

No. He is actually condensed. He never left the comic, he only hopped to a realistic looking Earth just like Earth 33 in the Orrery. And he did so immediately following hopping from alternate reality to reality that looked different each time. He was depowered by the Spectre after Days of Vengeance and then beaten nearly to death by Superman Prime, he has been consistently outsmarted by Superman and many other beings because he cannot see the future, his best feat is becoming larger than the multiverse and creation which is the same thing Cosmic Armor and Monitors already do normally. Along with the apparent removal and recreation of Creation itself, which is the same as the Forging Monitor, who was murdered by Barbados, who was mortified of...yep, you guessed it, Mandrakk

So nowhere is Myx winning this fight. Not even in WF form. And the Michael and Lucifer together form the same power that Neon and Quench had which Mandrakk in his weakest form murdered with bare handed with. So...its curtains for Myx and the Angels.

the 5th dimension is inside bleed space, in the orrery. It was made by the forging monitor, who was murdered by Barbados, who in turn was absolutely terrified of Mandrakk in his weakest form.

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@rijehu said:

@daxnovu: Ever since I spoke to you about the meta, I've been looking into that. Featwise, despite what Morrisonverse may infer, Mxy has been a meta character in every since of the word. I explained this on the Mxy vs Mandrakk post recently because I had no idea this was even a thing. Go look up his feats and his appearances and see what he has done. Ide argue he makes the OM look insignificant. And a Mxy has a consistency in those crazy feats. It's insane.

"The Dying God left your universe wounded, broken and defenseless."

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#66 Posted by Rijehu (1536 posts) - - Show Bio

@daxnovu: Mxy would have had to leave the comic to know that he is essentially apart of an store franchise including merchandise. And there isn't literally a panel of him explaining to Superman what was about to happen because he had read ahead. He has told John kent that this entire creation is merely pages in a book but John can't understand because he's a character. Not to be rude but, I'm not seeing how a guy who can read the comic book, prove that he read the comic book by referencing what was going to happen on a particular page, and then consistently refer the universe as a book and make a distinction between the real world and the comic he is currently both in an reading, can't be considered more powerful. Everyone knows Mxy is a trickster and limits himself for fun. Him getting beat or nearly killed by anyone isn't literally in his nature as an imp. And the fact that he had already destroyed DC with a gesture and brought it back with another, referenced the fact that he did it, then held the multiverse in his hands in another arc...Mxy has better feats that anyone else. I will send you the link to those feats. On top of that, he has addressed the reader just like CAS somewhat did but somehow that doesn't count? Again, not being rude but in terms of meta and comic feats, has Mandrakk actually destroyed creation casually and brought it back, or has he been just stated to be able to do so? Not that he can't but it seems Morrisons implications of what "should be" is now taking precedence over what IS. Feat by feat and meta feat by meta feat, (not statements) why isn't Mxy the most powerful being in the comicverse? Again, I'll send you a link.

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#67 Edited by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

Im sorry but no. Earth 33 is the real world analogue with authors who published DC comics. This all was explained in the Multiversity. Monitors actually set that up to pave a safety net and way to get comic issues out to the public and other universes as a way to stop The Empty Hand when he arrived. I totally respect your view though, so please dont take this as me saying 100% NO you are wrong. I am not that type. :)

But, I dont see the logic in saying that Myx and Batmite were just reality hopping from JLA to a hand drawn to a painted version to a line art to another comic looking version reality and then a black and white pencil drawing versiona and then all of a sudden they are out of the comic? No. They teleported to another realistic looking Universe. Because there are universes in the Orrery, where DC comics are a publication. And Myx is a written character. That isn't a meta feat. What is a meta feat? The front cover of Final Crisis stating Cosmic Armor stuck his finger back into the comic book.

The place myx went was actually universe 33, it wasnt meta, he never left the comic. He and batmite were just reality hopping and ended up in a realistic looking one, the same one the monitors later would be revealed to have setup to send Grant Morrisons unpublished DC encyclopedia and comics to in order to help other heroes battle the Empty Hand later. The front cover of final crisis says Cosmir armor left the comic. I would love a link to something that said Myx left the comic book. Officially. Limbo, the meta space for retcons, was 1D flat plane to the cosmic armor, that contained the entire infinite orrery and 5th dimension too.

There are hundreds of characters that know they are comic characters and inside of a fiction, that isn't a powerful feat to showcase sadly. Myx feats dont even remotely come close to Mandrakk, who is confirmed by CBR and DC itself to be the Meta Editors and concepts battling for power in a place without reality or particles, space or time. And that Mandrakk is the DC comics Editor, literally. all of that was confirmed just recently.

Myx isnt an editor, and is subject to retcon. Mandrakk is not. Direct from DC and CBR.

@rijehu said:

@daxnovu: Mxy would have had to leave the comic to know that he is essentially apart of an store franchise including merchandise. And there isn't literally a panel of him explaining to Superman what was about to happen because he had read ahead. He has told John kent that this entire creation is merely pages in a book but John can't understand because he's a character. Not to be rude but, I'm not seeing how a guy who can read the comic book, prove that he read the comic book by referencing what was going to happen on a particular page, and then consistently refer the universe as a book and make a distinction between the real world and the comic he is currently both in an reading, can't be considered more powerful. Everyone knows Mxy is a trickster and limits himself for fun. Him getting beat or nearly killed by anyone isn't literally in his nature as an imp. And the fact that he had already destroyed DC with a gesture and brought it back with another, referenced the fact that he did it, then held the multiverse in his hands in another arc...Mxy has better feats that anyone else. I will send you the link to those feats. On top of that, he has addressed the reader just like CAS somewhat did but somehow that doesn't count? Again, not being rude but in terms of meta and comic feats, has Mandrakk actually destroyed creation casually and brought it back, or has he been just stated to be able to do so? Not that he can't but it seems Morrisons implications of what "should be" is now taking precedence over what IS. Feat by feat and meta feat by meta feat, (not statements) why isn't Mxy the most powerful being in the comicverse? Again, I'll send you a link.

"Nothing in all of Creation can stop Mandrakk"

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#68 Edited by Rijehu (1536 posts) - - Show Bio

@daxnovu: Interesting, and crazily elaborate lol. But here's what I'll do. I'll read Final Crises, try to understand everything including the context around it, then go back and look at all of Mxys feats and appearances as to help me better make my case. But thank you because this is informative.

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#69 Edited by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

@rijehu: It is just important to know that Monitors are not Created by Michael and Lucifer and have no ties to the Presence's Creation. The Forging Monitor made The Presence, all the Endless and the Angels too. It made the Dark Multiverse and The Angels made the normal positive matter Multiverse that the primary DC comics stories are from, which was made by the team of Michael, Lucifer and the Presence. This is a hilarious debate, because Rox Ogama being controlled by Mandrakks mind already wasted the Presence in final crisis and all of megaverse 51.

However, none of that power matters even to a weakened Mandrakk. Here, a power even greater than the Presence and the angels, and all the endless is still as nothing to Mandrakk when Mandrkak is still in his weakened form.

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Be brushes off the power of Creation and Destruction in the most potent form possible. Just recall that in the Unexpected series and Dark Knight Metal, Dream of the Endless was powerless to stop Barbados. And Barbados was powerless to stop Mandrakk when he was a shadow of his former self.

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This is why anyone who says 5th dimensional imps like Myx, or any of the Endless, or Angels like Michael and Lucifer, or even the Presence being Mandrakk is just the most absurd thing imagingable at this point. It showcases extreme bias.

Mandrakk isn't of Creation. He wasn't made by the Presence, who made only the positive matter creation and Bleedspace. He wasn't made by The forging monitor, who also made the Presence, but also the Dark Multiverse. Neither hold dominion over him.

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"The Dying God left your universe wounded, broken and defenseless. Here, at the end of all stories, where Mandrakk dwells."

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#70 Edited by Rijehu (1536 posts) - - Show Bio

@daxnovu: I get all of the tiering and hierarchy stuff. I understand that Monitors are not created by The Presence and so on and so forth. But I'm still going to check it out so I can come to my conclusion in regards to Mxy and all this meta madness. I have my work cut out for me ha.

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#71 Posted by bdelloidgrain2 (1963 posts) - - Show Bio

I think people seriously underestimate just how powerful Thought Bot and Mandrakk actually were. Michael and Lucifer stomp.

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#72 Edited by Rajjar (1772 posts) - - Show Bio

@daxnovu

So do you know if Mxy has ever gone meta to begin with? Or has that always been in context of Earth-33?

OT: Based on the feats shown, I think Team 2 pulls a majority, if the Dying God is the Presence, and if a single one-way trip to the nexus point Yggdrasil did that much to Lucifer and Michael, then Mandrakk sucking creation dry would do something of similar effect, if they used any spatial application unto him. Because for all Lucifer and Michael can create in unison, Mandrakk can destroy. Then there is all the meta stuff.

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#73 Posted by Supermanthor (18823 posts) - - Show Bio

The Angel brothers lol stomps this overrated duo of Morrison

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#74 Edited by etriel (569 posts) - - Show Bio
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#75 Edited by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

There are no meta feats of any 5th Dimensional Imps. Myx was depowered by the Spectre in Days of Vengeance and everyone siding with him adheres to the fact that all versions of Myx are exactly the same and there is just one of them. So continuity wide Spectre > WF Myx on an objective basis. The Earth 33 explanation didn't come until the Multiversity.

But anyway, they look into the future events and take the Empty Hand as a comic book and all of us as readers, condense us down in comic form, toss the DC comics guidebook (That Grant Morrison didnt write yet and its part of the story that Grant didnt write it in our world yet) into the future for other heroes to use and read about all of DC characters) they also toss Flashpoint, COIE and ultracomics. Again...ultracomics is all of us condensed into a character.

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They gave it to Captain Allen too, who was amazed and baffled by it, the same guy who is just as strong as PR Beyonder, who forged the Superman and Ultraman into the Cosmic Armor in Final Crisis

The collective consciousness 8 dimensions of us knocking on his doorstep through the comic he is reading, simply because he is reading it and allowing the thought of the comic book and us to get into his meta space. Thats pretty meta. Can I see scans of Lucifer and Michael, or Mxy being so Meta that they are unable to cope with us in the real world invading their own meta space?

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Another

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Our real world analogue is Earth 33, its us. Grant Morrison is in there. Monitors tossed all the comics in there for storage. So...the defense of everyone citing Myx > The Monitors is that Myx left the comic and saw the real world. But, he got scared of it and ran away and promised never to come back. All he did was see the authors. Monitors are the editors. Editors > Authors.

Mandrakk and CAS eat the editors and can pull out unwritten publications the editor and authors have not seen and worked on yet in their own real world. So having when these kids show me Myx doing this, I'll agree that Myx is just equal with a Monitor and that Mandrakk is still superior. IF they can show me on the cover of any comic page that Myx did leave the comic, Ill be impressed, the slip cover of final crisis said Thought Robot left the comic.

The opposing side has no real argument.

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And yep, it was the Presence. the issue just before that in Final Crisis is where the Presence was talking to Crispus and Radiant. Team 2 in an obliterating stomp wins over the overrated team 1. Who cant even leave the comic book, has no clue they are comic characters and has no multiversal level destruction feats at all.

@rajjar said:

@daxnovu

So do you know if Mxy has ever gone meta to begin with? Or has that always been in context of Earth-33?

OT: Based on the feats shown, I think Team 2 pulls a majority, if the Dying God is the Presence, and if a single one-way trip to the nexus point Yggdrasil did that much to Lucifer and Michael, then Mandrakk sucking creation dry would do something of similar effect, if they used any spatial application unto him. Because for all Lucifer and Michael can create in unison, Mandrakk can destroy. Then there is all the meta stuff.

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"The Dying God left your Universe wounded, broken and Defenseless."

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#76 Posted by Soratoumiga (2524 posts) - - Show Bio

Was I high when I made this? Lucifer & Michael stomp.

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#77 Posted by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes. You were and still are. One of them is a story in a comic. The other is the confirmed editor of DC Comics. So...whatever drugs you are on, they are awesome and I want some.

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"The Dying God left your universe wounded, broken and defenseless."

Was I high when I made this? Lucifer & Michael stomp.

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#78 Posted by etriel (569 posts) - - Show Bio

@soratoumiga: thats why i attempted to lobby some mods and etc. to implement a feature to threadban users from a thread so we can argue in monitor threads without this schizophrenic loser spouting his debunkable non sense all over the place.

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#79 Posted by Soratoumiga (2524 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel: Yeah, I hope it works... He should be banned from Monitor threads.

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#80 Posted by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel: I've never reported you for anything you've done or said. You've a massive wall of insults. Should I compile them for the mods? How about your scan edits? Your personal attacks? Your accusations? Your trolling? Your harassing? Your stalking and following me into other threads and continuing to debate other topics in a different thread? I'm not going to report any of that, you are free to do anything you wish. I won't lower myself down to your level and try to get you booted because you bother me. You don't bother me.

With that said. Mandrakk is the Editor, confirmed by DC. Rox defeated the Presence already. So you guys lost the argument and continue onward and I'll keep posting my responses so long as you keep tagging me and insulting me. I've said four times over the past month now. Keep insulting me and I'll keep posting very politely all the same arguments and scans in a respectful manner.

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"The Dying God left your universe wounded, broken and defenseless."

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#81 Posted by Soratoumiga (2524 posts) - - Show Bio
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Lucifer going through CAS and Mandrakk be like...

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#82 Posted by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

@soratoumiga:

Cosmic Armor edit through Lucifer and Michael like

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#83 Edited by etriel (569 posts) - - Show Bio

@daxnovu:

and i never reported you for your multi-accounting either. so shut up. you are a schizophrenic though.

i just dont want your ass in my own threads given if i make one. i want to have the option to disallow people i dont like from sticking their noses in a thread i might make. so cry harder

people i block should not be able to post in my threads. this forum would go way better if we had that option

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#84 Posted by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio


Oh hush Sora. "Etriel" didn't make this thread. Sora did. Whoops. You were on the wrong account when you posted this it looks like. "even if I go and make one?" Seems more like you meant to post that comment under your Soratoumiga profile instead.

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"Nothing in all of Creation can stop Mandrakk!" The Unexpected: Issue 8"

@etriel said:

@daxnovu:

and i never reported you for your multi-accounting either. so shut up. you are a schizophrenic though.

i just dont want your ass in my own threads given if i make one. i want to have the option to disallow people i dont like from sticking their noses in a thread i might make. so cry harder

people i block should not be able to post in my threads. this forum would go way better if we had that option

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#85 Posted by Soratoumiga (2524 posts) - - Show Bio

Did he just imply me and Etriel are double accounts? Can he get more retarded?

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#86 Edited by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

Considering Sora made the thread and Etriel implied he made the thread and didnt want me to post in "his" thread, yep, I sure did.

Either way. I don't really care if you are. I'm not that low, only tossing your rants back at you and im not serious about that. You can have 10 alts and call me any name you want. I don't really care. Nothing you do or say bothers me. What does bother me is when you get your comic lore wrong ;) And when you go as far as saying The Spectre and the Radiant actually do not report to the Presence, but some unknown factor or cosmic being...despite the issue of Final Crisis where...none other than the Presence speaks to Crispus. And you claim to read comics, Sora? Really? You claim to actually READ them? You know, Sora, that entire arc where GOD and the Spectre have beef...

Sigh.

Final Crisis Revelations - Spectre citing he is Gods Sprit of Vengeance. All I do is debunk you guys in my off time. Id love to just read CV now and then and enjoy this forum without non stop debunking and countering your hostility.

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It is clear none of you few read comics. Or else you wouldnt say things like "hmmm, we dont know who that God is, maybe its nobody, or nothing."

No dude, its God. Its the Presence. Sit down already, your argument is really awful.

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"WF Mxy Depowered in Days of Vengeance by the Spectre and somehow able to still beat the Spectre? *shrugs."

@soratoumiga said:

Did he just imply me and Etriel are double accounts? Can he get more retarded?

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#87 Posted by Soratoumiga (2524 posts) - - Show Bio

@daxnovu: Yep, I didn't read that bullshit, I know it's more trash than Cardi B. Anyway, you're the one who made alt accounts to spread stupid claims like Mandrakk/CAS > Presence, with no actual evidence to back it up.

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"CAS gets hurt by the heat of 10 billion suns, and yet he still beats a guy who annihilated the Multiverse with casual ease. *sigh*"

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#88 Edited by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

Ah, ok, so you are a troll then.

CAS and Mandrakk Stomp in a bloodfest of biblical proportion. And they take Myx along for the ride too. Your insults only denote you are harmed by all of this. And your insults mean nothing to me. Oh, about your hurt by 10 billion suns reference? The Heat wasn't harming him, he was referencing the Bleed and how red sunlight harms the story of Superman...That is a cute one. Nice reach there. You know what is equally funny? Myx was punched by Superman and almost killed. How is he going to tank a hit from a cosmic entity larger than the infinite orrery of worlds that defeated The Presence, Dream of the Endless and also the guy who depowered WF Myx?...when the boot of Superman Prime almost crushed his skull?

Dang Sora, how is that working out for you? Myx cant even handle Superman Prime how is he gonna handle Cosmic Armor Superman?

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"WF Myx depowered by Spectre and somehow he will still take out Spectre? Watch out for that Darkseid...he is known to be the commander and chief of the Spectre and the Radiant...lol"

@soratoumiga said:

@daxnovu: Yep, I didn't read that bullshit, I know it's more trash than Cardi B. Anyway, you're the one who made alt accounts to spread stupid claims like Mandrakk/CAS > Presence, with no actual evidence to back it up.

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"CAS gets hurt by the heat of 10 billion suns, and yet he still beats a guy who annihilated the Multiverse with casual ease. *sigh*"

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#89 Edited by DaxNovu (167 posts) - - Show Bio

"Darkseid could be God, who knows." - Soratoumiga, 2/11/2019

andddd I'm done. We've just hit the lowest possible form of debating and I am sorry Rampage, Supermanthor, Etriel, the few others on the other side of the debate who are insistant on CAS and Mandrakk being as weaklings to your minds eye...but Soratoumiga and Etriel here have just totally ruined your credibility today. My God. There is no more debate on this subject matter. Your side of the debate was just made to look so horrendously terribly bad, that I feel gross even talking about this anymore. Seriously....wow. You guys...

You've sunk to a level where you needed to say that Darkseid = Presence and God just to try to win this debate. Congrats. I have no more words. No words are left.

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#90 Edited by Soratoumiga (2524 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow Please lock this mismatch. Either Lucifer or Michael solo with no effort whatsoever. I was wrong to make this thread, Mandrakk and CAS are way out of their league here.

Also, to block DaxNovu's constant ranting with no evidence, trolling and insulting.

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#91 Posted by Rajjar (1772 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow Please lock this mismatch. Either Lucifer or Michael solo with no effort whatsoever. I was wrong to make this thread, Mandrakk and CAS are way out of their league here.

Also, to block DaxNovu's constant ranting with no evidence, trolling and insulting.

It doesn't seem genuine to claim no evidence, and then admit

@daxnovu: Yep, I didn't read that bullshit,

, I know it's more trash than Cardi B. Anyway, you're the one who made alt accounts to spread stupid claims like Mandrakk/CAS > Presence, with no actual evidence to back it up.

"CAS gets hurt by the heat of 10 billion suns, and yet he still beats a guy who annihilated the Multiverse with casual ease. *sigh*"

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#92 Posted by Mister_Surreal (10203 posts) - - Show Bio

Normally, I would say that the brothers stomp but the are going up against someone who took out their daddy and the being that was able to beat him. They skedaddle away from the fight if they know what’s good for them.

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#93 Edited by etriel (569 posts) - - Show Bio

@mister_surreal: rox ogama never killed the presence. he never even said he killed a god. that is just another one of dax novu's lies taking scans out of context.

he was just chatting about darkseid who was dying just a few panels before it and was basically the black hole tearing reality apart becoming the end of all stories. leaving the universe defenseless which is why it had to be pulled out.

whats worse is that the presence's home isnt even in a universe. he resides in higher dimensions and the void (according to ostrander, matteis and other different writers. the presence either exist inside of or embodies the void) and not a universe. which further proves again that this isnt the presence. it was darkseid who made a mess of the universe leaving it defenseless.

rox ogama was killed by low battery green lanterns and supermen literally with no amps or whatever in like the next two pages. if you think this character can kill the presence then you have to re-evaluate your opinion again.

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#94 Posted by Mister_Surreal (10203 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel: Hey, I was just agreeing with what other people said.

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#95 Edited by Rajjar (1772 posts) - - Show Bio

@mister_surreal said:

@etriel: Hey, I was just agreeing with what other people said.

Honestly, the Monitors are a wacky lot, who have power yet no durability at the same time. And considering that Mxy isn't meta anymore given that he's been visiting Earth 33 and not the real world, I've had enough foundations broken for today in DC's horridly complicated hierarchy. I still think Overvoid > Presence though?

And the dreaming Presence one-shots all these fools, IIRC what sungsam explained to me, but that might be a single writer from Vertigo.

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#96 Posted by Mister_Surreal (10203 posts) - - Show Bio

@rajjar: Honestly, a monitor beating The Presnsce didn't make sense to me. I just thought that Mandrakk was one of those characters that defy logic. But I agree with Overivoid>Presence.

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#97 Edited by etriel (569 posts) - - Show Bio

@rajjar said:
@mister_surreal said:

@etriel: Hey, I was just agreeing with what other people said.

Honestly, the Monitors are a wacky lot, who have power yet no durability at the same time. And considering that Mxy isn't meta anymore given that he's been visiting Earth 33 and not the real world, I've had enough foundations broken for today in DC's horridly complicated hierarchy. I still think Overvoid > Presence though?

And the dreaming Presence one-shots all these fools, IIRC what sungsam explained to me, but that might be a single writer from Vertigo.

the monitors derive their multiversal attack power simply based from which dimension they are currently in. that is why despite that the monitors dwarf multiverses by size.

normal sized humanoid heroes are capable of entering the monitor sphere and becoming nearly equal the size class of dax novu. meaning that monitors arent really that special in regards to 'seeing multiverses as germs' feat.

meaning that normal humans can enter the monitor sphere and also become bigger than a multiverse because the nature of the monitor sphere adjusts anyone to that size automatically like boom tubes.

their power is like how boom tubes work. they adjust the size of a character to the proper of a certain dimension level. thats why monitors are much weaker when theyre in a normal universe compared to when theyre in the monitor sphere.

its like how superman becane universe level when he entered new genesis since universes are bubbles to the new gods simply because the boom tubes adjust their size to the proper dimension standard.

monitors are not multiversal on their own ground. they, like other dc characters, their tier depends on the dimension theyre inside of.

thats why nth metal weapons are capable of deflecting their laser attacks of monitors. take note this fight takes place in the monitor sphere and mere thanagarians can still pose a martial stand up against mandrakk.

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im not so well versed on the matteis presence that dreams everything including the void. but matteis doesnt write for vertigo. he writes for dc directly.

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#98 Posted by Mister_Surreal (10203 posts) - - Show Bio

@etriel: I believe I have a better understand of how Monitors work. Thanks.

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#99 Edited by etriel (569 posts) - - Show Bio

@mister_surreal said:

@etriel: I believe I have a better understand of how Monitors work. Thanks.

thats really how they work.

rox ogama was exiled from the monitor sphere and became weakened because he was in the normal universe. the same thing happened to nix uotan. he became humanized and weak due to his exile. it already happened twice.

monitors depend on the bleed or positive matter to sustain themselves. any higher infinite hierarch transcending character can just destroy everything that exists and mandrakk will eventually die.

the whole meta thing with the monitors is just a gag quirk. mandrakk's requirement source of sustenance was literally changed from matter to anti matter by a magician with no planet level feats and mandrakk had no control over that.

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#100 Edited by Rajjar (1772 posts) - - Show Bio

@mister_surreal said:

@rajjar: Honestly, a monitor beating The Presnsce didn't make sense to me. I just thought that Mandrakk was one of those characters that defy logic. But I agree with Overivoid>Presence.

I mean, if the Thought Robot was able to feel the Presence and cover Limbo with a palm, where exactly would he be in this hierarchy?

And honestly, the Monitor power logic seems exactly how the Superflow works in Marvel's Eternity War; the moment you enter it, Tiger-God amped Black Panther can throw down with the most powerful abstract. However, if the Monitor Sphere still stands, all of the Monitors get to keep their status and feats, while at the same time conveniently ignoring all anti-feats that took place in the Sphere, since the Monitor would lose any advantage if the narrative was completely local, and not say, external to the sphere.