Both are at full power and can use all of their abilities.
Both are bloodlusted
Who wins
Dammit... I was saving this battle to remake myself later. Well regardless, a REAL battle for once. Not Michael and Battler Thanos snapping fodder like Beyonder.
So here I will explain Battler' feats. (If anyone has read this before, I've actually added more this time.)
Both Battler and Dlanor's weapons have these properties:
^ These traits apply to the weapons themselves, meaning every casual swing of their swords has these traits.
Battler and Dlanor (especially Battler) have no concept of death to where they can revive after being erased just by thinking again:
Here we have Battler reviving after Beatrice erased him:
Merely regaining his will to fight revived him completely; and this is Pre-Game Master Battler. Remember the scans I sent of Dlanor's swords earlier? Pre-Game Master Battler got hit with that AND Dlanor's ultimate Red Truth attack that had all of the previous traits mentioned:
And of course all of these attacks from Dlanor are versions of the Red Truth. As to what the Red Truth is:
Yet Battler revives from getting hit twice from Dlanor's Red Truth (the last one being her ultimate one) just by becoming the Game Master:
Battler and Dlanor's speed were also surpassing the concept of distance in their fight:
Battler has an ability called Endless Nine, which is a state of mind to where if you don't believe in something, it will not effect you, period. Usually Endless Nine is meant to deny just whatever the user deems supernatural, but Battler has perfected it to the point that he can simply decide to ignore an attack and it will not effect him. Since Endless Nine is a mental state, the only weakness is that if the user's mental state isn't 100% perfect for the ability (I.E. isn't 100% denying the target), then Endless Nine can start to get penetrated, such as when Bernkastel started to barely penetrate Ange's Endless Nine after she just learned how to use it:
However, this doesn't apply to Battler, as he has perfected Endless Nine and his mental state entirely to where nothing will intimidate him to where is faith wavers in denying whatever he feels like. We see him tank attacks from the Imperial Guard Corps when he was a Human, and Aurora's guards when he was the Game Master. Both were infinities above him:
Even Aurora could not interfere with Battler at this point.
Battler also has the Golden Truth, which makes anything he wants fact/reality on a level beyond the Red Truth:
Battler proceeded to throw the fight against Bernkastel, allowing himself to die so that it could help Ange learn what he was trying to teach her (plot stuff). Even Ange's non-perfected Endless Nine and Golden Truth denied reality itself on a conceptual level where her and her family died and let them live regardless:
Ange then proceeds to one shot Bernkastel with the Golden Truth (who is far above Ange in raw power):
And again... Ange's Endless Nine and Golden Truth is a joke compared to Battler's.
We also have Beatrice, who created a sophisticated Catbox for the Human Domain:
Battler has control over this catbox once he inherits Beatrice's title as Game Master. While the catbox very small compared to DC, it contains many metaphysical dimensions, as it contains a part of the Human Domain. (I feel as though Battler Vs. Michael comes fown to hax and metaphysics, as opposed to cosmology size.)
"Ok, now is the time to get into the nitty-gritty, the complexity of the Human Domain. For this, I'm going to use scans form ReWrite, Ryukishi07's collaboration with Tanaka Romeo and Tonokawa Yuuto, the same trio that wrote TrianThology. As you guys would see, the cosmological concepts from WTC are also present here, but I'll let you interpret this how you desire.
The basic premise here is that those guys have a power called ReWrite which grands them the ability to improve all of their "stats", to say it blunt lol. Here is what happens when it goes kinda too far:
From the very beginning we already have some kind of unimaginable realm beyond concepts of space and time and where all coordinates do not work:"
"What is this realm? Well, one where creatures are concepts:"
"Composite versions of infinite selfs. Although for them this world seems like ordinary reality (well, almost):"
"This place contains things that the human mind can't even comprehend:"
"Just trying to look and understand the incomprehensible knowledge in this diagram is deadly for ordinary beings from this world. Fortunately, they do not die, even if they die (lol):"
"Due to the increased level of intelligence due to the diagram, it was possible to understand something about the nature of this conceptual world. In particular, about the illogical structure of time in this timeless world:"
"Further, an increase in intelligence is achieved with the help of special superpower:"
"But this still is not enough to understand anything but insignificant grains of knowledge in the flowchart:"
"And here, alienation from human nature is getting brighter:"
"The understanding comes that happiness is in ignorance:"
"Removal from human nature continues. This is what we can call the beginning of evolution into a higher order being:"
"Next comes a sharp jerk of understanding. Finally, we are dealing with a ladder of concepts that transcends the universe. This applies not only to the real physical world, but also to that abstract world from which the journey began:"
"This is what is probably physical concepts. Once again I pay attention, this is not actually physics, these are transcendental concepts that exist beyond the universe and beyond realm, that exist outside of all coordinates. Our hero is still full of confidence that he can understand everything:"
"Then we have a combination of such laws, the nature of forces and other abstract things:"
"Aspects of humanity continue to be lost:"
"Next we have an existential cold. So this is what can be called mental concepts. Here comes an understanding of things related to the mind/soul/heart. Since this is quite a materialistic view of the universe, this part can bring despair. The world turns out to be like an unfeeling mechanism, where there is nothing divine:"
"Fortunately, on the next steps, the traveler met salvation in the form of kakera of love, which came from some much more high place:"
"It turned out that the concept of love is not only a mere observation of primitive civilizations, but something extremely important:"
"This kakera gave even more understanding about the world, but this is only the first chapter:"
"Then there are some truths about the history of the world, about the symbiosis of material and spiritual things:"
"Finally, we have some serious concept. Something like infinity, even from the perspective of this level, and understand something more about this thing is impossible. Our hero is increasingly beginning to understand his limitations:"
"The movement continues and misunderstanding only grows. The clouds of unknowable things:"
"And finally it is over. The wall of absolute misunderstanding:"
"It is this level that is the pinnacle of human conceptualization. The visitor is already beginning to understand the problem of boredom, which is characteristic of higher being (coughWitchescough):"
"However, even here there is still hope. There are still unknown things. And this is still a human level. Nevertheless, this is already a transitional level, which brings a human closer to a higher level:"
"As Lambda tells us, one of the main differences between humans and higher beings is that they have ground under their feet. This is their advantage. That is, they do not need to make an effort to simply exist, but they do not move through the layers. They do not evolve and do not fall within their domain:"
"Getting back to our hero, he is at the peak of the Human Domain. So high that the lower ladder of concepts has lost its meaning. All that was below disappeared. The feeling of footing is already lost, an independent return to human nature is no longer possible:"
"...Though he manages to get back:"
"Our hero could not exceed the peak and could not find kakeras with other chapters:"
"And this basically gets us full circle to the begining, where Lambda says that it would be easy to make a Human into a God (i.e. Witch), but their mind would end up dispersing:"
"Yes, yes, that is exactly what will happen even with a man who has been at the peak of all things. And not only the higher domain is dangerous. Our hero was only at the beginning of this peak and there are many more concepts in this wall that can destroy his mind:"
"So, all of this is part of the Human Domain, the very bottom of the Hierarchy."
Since Battler can create multiverses in the Human Domain after obtaining the same powers as Beatrice, he is capable of creating everything shown here.
This will be the main part of this thread... Here I (with the help of Ovy7 and Kil) will be showing and explaining the When They Cry multiverse and the sheer size of it. Before we start, I'd like to mention that we do not use VS Battles logic in any way and are against it entirely. Now, onto the main event...
There are three domains in When They Cry: the Human Domain, the Witches Domain, and the Creator's Domain. These domains are basically the three main parts of the When They Cry multiverse, and are actually three separate multiverses and planes of existence entirely, with the Creator's Domain being the highest, then the Witches Domain, then the Human Domain. The difference between domains is like the difference between two hierarchies:
もちろん、右代宮家と縁などあるわけもない。そもそも、彼らの存在する階層さえ、異なる。
Translation: Of course, there is no relationship between Willard and the Ushiromiya House. Even the hierarchy in which they reside is, in the first place, different.
The hierarchy of the Ushiromiyas here applies to the domain of Humans, which is different from the one where Will exist (the Witches one).
So is there a difference in actual power between the domains? And if so... how big is the difference? To the first question, yes, there is an actual power, volume, and size difference between them, and we will get to that a bit later. To the second question, we will also get back to that in a bit. But for now, let's take a look at the Human Domain and what it contains first...
In the Human Domain, we have higher-dimensional worlds and complex quantum structures:
五次元の壁を越えて現在の世界に移り住むようになった「リューンの民」の入植状況を見守り、先住民への危害など違反行為を行う者に対して制裁することを任務とする「監視者(ジェダ)」のひとり。
~Is one of the “guardians (Jedas)” who monitor the immigration situation of their fellow “Ryūn people” who crossed the fifth dimension wall to live in the current world.
So, how do higher dimensions work in When They Cry? Well, higher dimensions are infinitely above/superior to lower dimensions:
The Human Domain is a double quantuminfinite-dimensional+ ladder that ascends upwards to the Witches Domain. Why is this? Well... let's take a look:
Each step of the ladder in the Witches Domain is a higher dimension. Witches try to continuously climb the ladder until they reach the highest point, and then try to ascend to the Creator's Domain. They try to prevent falling down the ladder (can happen due to various things), as it will land them in the bottomless hell known as the Sea of Oblivion (the lowest section of the infinite ladder that is a bottomless hell):
Now, what does this have to do with the Human Domain? Well... there is a common misconception that When They Cry has one single ladder that runs through all three domains and is one single infinite-dimensional ladder; however this is not the case. Take note in the scan above that it states that the lowest part of the infinite ladder is the bottomless Sea of Oblivion. But... the Human Domain is specifically stated to have a ground at the bottom that humans can stand on if they fall from their ladder. They purposely make this a distinct difference between the two domains:
As you can see, this is contradictory. If there is only one single infinite ladder that runs through all three domains, then how can said ladder be bottomless yet have a ground? Well... this is clearly not the case. Each domain has their own separate ladder (aka their own separate set of dimensions). So how big is the ladder in the Human Domain? Well, Beatrice's Catbox (which consist of only the Human Domain) runs off the Type 3 Multiverse Model if we look closely:
Beatrice's Catbox is a multiverse that self-generates infinite possibilities that keep branching out infinitely, Basically Beatrice's Catbox is a Type 3 Multiverse.
LEVEL III MULTIVERSE: THE MANY WORLDS OF QUANTUM MECHANICS
There may be a third type of parallel worlds that are not far away but in a sense right here. If the equations of physics are what mathematicians call unitary, as they so far appear to be, then the universe keeps branching into parallel universes as in the cartoon below: whenever a quantum event appears to have a random outcome, all outcomes in fact occur, one in each branch. This is the Level III multiverse. Although more debated and controversial than Level I and Level II, I've argued that, surprisingly, this level adds no new types of universes.
https://space.mit.edu/home/tegmark/crazy.html
While the possibilities/parallel worlds in a Type 3 Multiverse are the same as a Type 1 Multiverse (your standard infinite multiverse), the difference is that a Type 3 Multiverse uses an infinite-dimensional Hilbert Space:
Tegmark writes that, "The only difference between Level I and Level III is where your doppelgängers reside. In Level I they live elsewhere in good old three-dimensional space. In Level III they live on another quantum branch in infinite-dimensional Hilbert space."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse#Level_III:_Many-worlds_interpretation_of_quantum_mechanics
Credit to Sungsam/Norsewinter for that last bit of information. ^
So Beatrice's Catbox is an infinite-dimensional multiverse in the Human Domain that self-generates endless worlds (timelines/parallel universes). And Beatrice's Cat Box is only one part of the Human Domain. Bernkastel states that she had to find and open an even bigger catbox than Beatrice's:
So Bernkastel found a catbox bigger than Beatrice's self-generating infinite-dimensional catbox. We even see in the scan above that there are multiple catboxes in the background. However, Beatrice's self-generating infinite-dimensional Catbox is stated countless of times to be extremely unique; so the chances of those other catboxes being infinite-dimensional is unlikely (aside from the one specifically stated to be bigger than Beatrice's of course).
Now...
So as we saw before... the wall between the Witches Domain and the Human Domain was completely incomprehensible and beyond the ability to even begin to access, even for someone who has reached the top of the Human Domain's ladder. So to put it bluntly... the Witches Domain infinitely above the Human Domain. Yes... the double quantum infinite-dimensional+ Human Domain is infinitely transcended by even the lowest parts of the Witches Domain. So how big is the Witches Domain? Well the size of the Witches Domain is very simple. Like the Human Domain, it has its own ladder. Said ladder is infinite-dimensional. I'll post 2 scans that I posted earlier as a reminder:
So to put it simply... the Witches Domain is an infinite-dimensional domain that is infinitely above the Human Domain. We see that Witches basically climb the infinite-dimensional ladder to gain power and free themselves from restrictions, eventually becoming one with The Creator (god):
Basically, the higher a witch climbs the ladder/the more she reaches higher worlds (dimensions), the stronger she becomes. However there is a common misconception that someone gets weaker if they go back to a lower dimension they've previously surpassed. This is not the case. If someone in a higher dimension goes to a lower dimension, they are not weakened by going a step lower, as they have permanently surpassed that dimension by going higher. This is backed up by Bernkastel sending her forces from the City of Books (higher dimension) to the Golden Land (lower dimension) to have war with Battler's forces. If Bernkastel's army got weaker by entering the Golden Land (the lower dimension), she would've just kept them in the City of Books (higher dimension) and have them nuke everyone in the Golden Land from said higher dimension. But she didn't, because going to lower dimensions that her army already surpassed will not weaken them. I just wanted to clear up this misconception many have.
So what does the Witches Domain have in it? Well at the lowest bottomless part of the ladder, we have the Sea of Oblivion. This is a place Witches go to when they fall from the ladder, aka when they are defeated, erased, ect in most cases:
Next we have the Sea of Fragments:
Kakera (カケラ?, lit. "fragment(s)") is a particular concept among "Voyager" witches. In the When They Cry series they are prisms that represent infinite parallel worlds with different possibilities. The different decisions taken by the characters, circumstances, environment and various other variables pave way for the story to play out in particular ways in different kakera. It metaphorically embodies the idea that reality is a microcosm of innumerable known and unknown factors. In the Higurashi no Naku Koro ni Minagoroshi-hen manga, Bernkastel refers to them as books and gives them different names. Likewise, all of the games in Umineko no Naku Koro ni are given different names. The games themselves can be considered parallel worlds existing at the same time in some sense. These different worlds can be viewed in the Meta-World and in the sea of fragments. In Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, Rika Furude is able to view the different worlds in the sea of fragments. Bernkastel has been shown to have entered the sea of fragments to view the different worlds in order to solve the epitaph. Battler, with a push from Virgilia, discovered the ability to access and utilize the sea of fragments to discover the "truth" in End of the Golden Witch. Aside from being used as a way to view different worlds, Bernkastel has also stated in the same arc that she can make a fragment a reality and in Twilight of the Golden Witch, it was used as some sort of teleporting device by Lambdadelta, which allows Voyager witches such as herself to enter and exit different game boards.
https://umineko.fandom.com/wiki/Kakera
This one is unique, because the Sea of Fragments exist on seemingly ever layer of the ladder in the Witches Domain, and they even exist in the Human Domain. They get bigger the higher you go on the ladder (credit to Ovy7 for this):
Ovy7: "Which makes perfect sense with what we see through the VN/manga. In Ep5, Bern and Lambda get Meta-Battler to the Sea of Fragments, but it's only the one from Beato's Catbox, so a small one:"
Ovy7: "In Ep7, Will and Lion escape in a much vaster Sea of Fragments considering that it holds Bern's Catbox and Beato's Catbox, and all of that Sea of Fragments is just a Book for people on even higher lvls:"
This leads us to the highest level of the Sea of Fragments... the City of Books (Capital of Books in the manga), the top of the Witches Domain:
The Great Witch of Theatergoing, Drama, and Spectating's Noble City of Carefully Selected Books, also referred to as the City of Books (図書の都 Tosho no Miyako?) or the Library, is a sacred realm under the supervision of the Witch Senate. It appears as a giant library, with massive shelves holding countless books picked by Featherine Augustus Aurora herself. As stated by Bernkastel, each book contains a different world, similar to Beatrice's game board. The city itself is protected by a holy barrier. Only a witch of the Senate may enter, and outsiders may only enter if they are invited.
In Twilight of the Golden Witch, the city holds the final battle between Bernkastel and Lambdadelta, Lambdadelta and Featherine, and Bernkastel and Battler + Ange.
https://umineko.fandom.com/wiki/City_of_Books
A single book in this dimension holds an entire story, including that of Umineko. So everything previously mentioned in this respect thread is all contained in one book in the City of Books.
The entirety of the Witches Domain is infinitely above the entirety of the Human Domain.
The Witches Domain has its own infinite-dimensional ladder
The City of Books is getting more stories constantly stored in it.
The Creator's Domain is also infinitely above the Witches Domain, yet Battler can effect those entities too, despite being weaker. (Creator's Domain part of my respect thread has not been made yet. The finished product of my respect thread will be much larger than what you see here in terms of info.)
...
Stalemate for now.
Michael one-shots Battler and the entire When they cry verse.
Stop putting anime fodder in these match ups.
@underfire47: Quality post like these remind me why others look down upon this website.
@zgtfreak: That's weird, since you guys are doing such a great job upholding it's reputation.
@underfire47: at the very least he provided feats and information of the characters unlike you >.>
@nightwingx: Want me to scan dump a respect thread? I can do that, but people can google it themselves too.
Michael takes this.
Battler wins imo, I don't think the DC cosmology is higher than Umineko's from what I have seen.
Also, DC cosmology is higher. I can elaborate if you're interested.
@bdelloidgrain2: Bigger than even the one ZGT posted above? I mean, I know they are likely larger in Aleph tiering and stuff.
@bdelloidgrain2: Bigger than even the one ZGT posted above? I mean, I know they are likely larger in Aleph tiering and stuff.
Yes.
The Presence > the Outer Void (characters like Pralaya) > Dark Multiverse > Source Wall > Monitor Sphere > Limbo > the Metaverse (infinite multiverses which multiply infinitely) > the Multiverse (infinite universes which multiply infinitely) > Universe (space that grows infinitely).
Umineko cosmology is:
Creator domain > Witches domain > infinite dimensions which expand infinitely.
@bdelloidgrain2: Bigger than even the one ZGT posted above? I mean, I know they are likely larger in Aleph tiering and stuff.
Yes.
The Presence > the Outer Void (characters like Pralaya) > Dark Multiverse > Source Wall > Monitor Sphere > Limbo > the Metaverse (infinite multiverses which multiply infinitely) > the Multiverse (infinite universes which multiply infinitely) > Universe (space that grows infinitely).
Umineko cosmology is:
Creator domain > Witches domain > infinite dimensions which expand infinitely.
But @zgtfreak does bring up a good point. A battle like this could most definitely just turn into a battle of hax. Who can snap their fingers and erase the other person faster? I personally think that Michael would win, but both of these characters are stupid strong. Almost impossible to accurately determine an accurate winner.
I still feel as though Michael is stronger due to cosmology and other reasons.
@bdelloidgrain2: Same here.
@bdelloidgrain2: Bigger than even the one ZGT posted above? I mean, I know they are likely larger in Aleph tiering and stuff.
Yes.
The Presence > the Outer Void (characters like Pralaya) > Dark Multiverse > Source Wall > Monitor Sphere > Limbo > the Metaverse (infinite multiverses which multiply infinitely) > the Multiverse (infinite universes which multiply infinitely) > Universe (space that grows infinitely).
Umineko cosmology is:
Creator domain > Witches domain > infinite dimensions which expand infinitely.
Cosmology is irrelevant at this level since their cosmologies both treat lower layers like fiction, and because of that, they can make the layers below them as large as they want, as they can edit them like fiction, making any cosmology using reality>fiction layers equal, as they can add as many layers as needed. Plus if dropped into a neutral verse without higher layers, that also removes cosmology advantage. There's also the fact that conceptual hax may not be limited to layers, as a person may be manipulating concepts that govern the entire cosmology. Basically there are way too many holes to say that cosmology is the deciding factor at this level. I do think Michael wins, but not because of any of the reasons listed here. Michael wins since he embodies virtually all concepts, including the ones that Battler utilizes.
@zgtfreak: Agreed. Although I would like to know where you got the thing that Michael embodies all the concepts. Btw, Umineko episode 1 is brutally distrubing ;0
@zgtfreak: Irrelevant to the debate. Why does your UI look so simple to navigate and the tips or info show all of the texts on sceen, my version has to scroll down and it's kinda annoying to send scans, when I have to take multiple of them. I'm playing the PS3 port called the (Umineko project). But are you playing the Steam port or an older one??
@bdelloidgrain2: Bigger than even the one ZGT posted above? I mean, I know they are likely larger in Aleph tiering and stuff.
Yes.
The Presence > the Outer Void (characters like Pralaya) > Dark Multiverse > Source Wall > Monitor Sphere > Limbo > the Metaverse (infinite multiverses which multiply infinitely) > the Multiverse (infinite universes which multiply infinitely) > Universe (space that grows infinitely).
Umineko cosmology is:
Creator domain > Witches domain > infinite dimensions which expand infinitely.
Cosmology is irrelevant at this level since their cosmologies both treat lower layers like fiction, and because of that, they can make the layers below them as large as they want, as they can edit them like fiction, making any cosmology using reality>fiction layers equal, as they can add as many layers as needed. Plus if dropped into a neutral verse without higher layers, that also removes cosmology advantage. There's also the fact that conceptual hax may not be limited to layers, as a person may be manipulating concepts that govern the entire cosmology. Basically there are way too many holes to say that cosmology is the deciding factor at this level. I do think Michael wins, but not because of any of the reasons listed here. Michael wins since he embodies virtually all concepts, including the ones that Battler utilizes.
That's a very good point actually. Well, looks like we are agreeing here :)
@zgtfreak: Irrelevant to the debate. Why does your UI look so simple to navigate and the tips or info show all of the texts on sceen, my version has to scroll down and it's kinda annoying to send scans, when I have to take multiple of them. I'm playing the PS3 port called the (Umineko project). But are you playing the Steam port or an older one??
I don't have the VN. I read the manga. I get VN scans from various sources.
@zgtfreak: Agreed. Although I would like to know where you got the thing that Michael embodies all the concepts. Btw, Umineko episode 1 is brutally distrubing ;0
Scans from Lucifer, but specifically the comic where Michael and Specter fight IIRC. Could be misremembering though.
@zgtfreak: I don't think Lucifer ever fought the Spectre. Michael yes, but Lucifer didn't iirc.
@anaverageguy123: No, I mean there was one scan IN the Lucifer comic IIRC. My bad. Typo. The rest were from a different comic where Michael and Specter fought.
@zgtfreak: Ah. I still don't remember anything pointing to that in Lucifer 2000, 2015, or 2018. But alright, I'll be on the look out on my eventually re-readings.
@anaverageguy123: I could be misremembering. Not really invested in this thread enough to dig up scans though.
@zgtfreak: how the heck you made that post on xbox
@zgtfreak: Understandable.
Battler takes this
@bdelloidgrain2: Ah yes, I definitely remember those scans. Not quite sure how that lead him being the emboidment of all concepts. I can totally see him being a vessel for divine power, however. But thansk anyways ;)
@bdelloidgrain2: Ah yes, I definitely remember those scans. Not quite sure how that lead him being the emboidment of all concepts. I can totally see him being a vessel for divine power, however. But thansk anyways ;)
In the two scans, everything is a part of Michael. So it is to assume that concepts would also be a part of him as he created them (the Endless for example) (alongside Lucifer). The Presence created Michael and Lucifer, and in response, these two created everything else. Even abstract things such as emotions.
assuming we dont use endless nine(which wont do anything to michael) then Michael. If we use Battler hax and use the truth especially golden truth it might edge it out otherwise Battler would get murder. Michael is literally what you call pure infinite raw power. he bleeds power and he could easily kill lucifer if he wasnt be merciful or holding back. the twins power are gifted by the presence to function as his power and will.
assuming we dont use endless nine(which wont do anything to michael) then Michael. If we use Battler hax and use the truth especially golden truth it might edge it out otherwise Battler would get murder. Michael is literally what you call pure infinite raw power. he bleeds power and he could easily kill lucifer if he wasnt be merciful or holding back. the twins power are gifted by the presence to function as his power and will.
Endless 9 as an ability is based on what the wielder denies, which is usually an existence or a concept. With that denied concept/existensce not being able to affect or hurt them, so to say endless 9 wont affect Micheal is...well somewhat true since it wont be changing him, but his attacks wouldn't be able to hurt battler if he doesn't accept him.
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