Michael & Lucifer Vs Thanos{hotu} & Protege

@thebestofthebest:

It's cool to go out-of-topic but here it's clearly said 9 times that it's only one Universe that have been created.

Moreover the other said that they created a Cosmos and Cosmos = Universe.

I don't get why you are derailing the main topic...

Did you run out of arguments ?

@realitywarper:Am not arguing actually i just want your opinion that's all, am not very knowledgeable about this stuff

It's cool to go out-of-topic but here it's clearly said 9 times that it's only one Universe that have been created.

Moreover the other said that they created a Cosmos and Cosmos = Universe.

I don't get why you are derailing the main topic...

Did you run out of arguments ?

Oh.. :/ i see you took it as an offense. sorry about that I'll edit my post. i didn't run out. am doing some research's however i assume you know that Lucifer < Michael and Lucifer > Morpheus who's Multiversal+ as i recall. So that mean's Michael is Multiversal++ in raw of power's ?

No problem man.

I answered that point about Morpheus in the other thread if you want to check it. :)

Alright !

So you debunked that good lol

Thanks ! ;)

@killemall said:

@the_caped_crusader said:

@ragnar_lodhbrok said:

Man HotU is not on the level of Lucifer and Michael.

The HotU is only UNIVERSAL. All HotU did was absorb a single universe. It also only beat an M-Body of LT. Even Galactus and Korvac can do that. Even if HotU beat the real LT, that still doesn't imply multiversal power. Marvel writers don't care about power scaling.

Another instance is when it only took 3 Beyonders to kill LT, but all of the Beyonders were killed by a blast that only destroyed thousands of universes. So the Beyonders can't even tank mid multiversal attacks, yet they still beat the Living Tribunal.

Exactly.

And without power scaling you can bring forth feat from Lucifer that is said to be multiversal? I would love to see that actually, at least from his own solo issue.

The only one that's even arguable is the whole making his own multiverse, and even that, apart from 1 story Lucifer Nirvana, that feat is said to be universal, throughout his series, including once by Elaine after ascending to the throne of god.

From Lucifer # 68

Heck in Lucifer # 69 Yahweh threatns to destroy ALL of CREATION, including Lucifer's creation. And you know what ALL of CREATION included? One universe

Lastly this is from Lucifer's final issue, Issue # 74, were Elaine with the power of God, merges 3 creation into 1. Even the new re-created combined cosmos is again called Universe

Lastly don't get me wrong I am not trying to argue Lucifer is universal, because well he isnt. But that whole he isnt part comes from a bit of ABC logic with him being more powerful than Dream whose power exceeds universal. But if you are going to argue HOTU is universal, you have the same problem for Lucifer.

People can argue around it all you want, but apart from 1 statement by god, if you compare only feat, literally there is nothing Lucifer has done that is better than say what Eternity has done.

Here's what Dormammu had to explain about Eternity's power.

Can you show me a single feat from Lucifer, Michael or even both together , without supposedly ABC logic, could you show me a feat that is better than this?

Let everyone on the thread see it for what it is

I don't know much about Lucifer and don't really care about DC. I was merely trying to debunk Marvel feats. I was under the impression that Lucifer actually had multiversal feats (being as people compare him to Living Tribunal), but if it only comes from power scaling, then it can't be used. As you can see from the link, power scaling can't be used in DC either.

Power levels change based on the writer. Eternity for most of his incarnations is only universal. Also Marvel writers don't care about power scaling on VS forums, as confirmed by Tom Brevoort (who's basically the Akira Toriyama of Marvel) himself.

http://brevoortformspring.tumblr.com/post/123784086828/hi-tom-theres-been-a-lot-of-heated-debate-about#notes

http://brevoortformspring.tumblr.com/post/114667242403/i-dont-understand-how-the-beyonders-could-wipe

"We need to stop thinking of these power relationships in such simple linear and black and white terms. if real life worked like that, there’d be no need for sporting events of any kind–you could tell which person or team was going to win without a game, from just looking at the stats."

The Beyonders killed Living Tribunal, but were killed by solar system level beings, and completely wiped out by a blast that only destroyed thousands of universes.

Heart of the Universe only absorbed a single universe. Nowhere in the story does it say that HotU is multiversal. You can either believe that he only defeated an M-Body of LT (as many weaker beings have done so), or accept that power scaling doesn't work in Marvel. Either way, HotU is only universal.

RealityWarper Thanks for what LOL :v

@ragnar_lodhbrok said:

@killemall said:

@the_caped_crusader said:

@ragnar_lodhbrok said:

Man HotU is not on the level of Lucifer and Michael.

The HotU is only UNIVERSAL. All HotU did was absorb a single universe. It also only beat an M-Body of LT. Even Galactus and Korvac can do that. Even if HotU beat the real LT, that still doesn't imply multiversal power. Marvel writers don't care about power scaling.

Another instance is when it only took 3 Beyonders to kill LT, but all of the Beyonders were killed by a blast that only destroyed thousands of universes. So the Beyonders can't even tank mid multiversal attacks, yet they still beat the Living Tribunal.

Exactly.

And without power scaling you can bring forth feat from Lucifer that is said to be multiversal? I would love to see that actually, at least from his own solo issue.

The only one that's even arguable is the whole making his own multiverse, and even that, apart from 1 story Lucifer Nirvana, that feat is said to be universal, throughout his series, including once by Elaine after ascending to the throne of god.

From Lucifer # 68

Heck in Lucifer # 69 Yahweh threatns to destroy ALL of CREATION, including Lucifer's creation. And you know what ALL of CREATION included? One universe

Lastly this is from Lucifer's final issue, Issue # 74, were Elaine with the power of God, merges 3 creation into 1. Even the new re-created combined cosmos is again called Universe

Lastly don't get me wrong I am not trying to argue Lucifer is universal, because well he isnt. But that whole he isnt part comes from a bit of ABC logic with him being more powerful than Dream whose power exceeds universal. But if you are going to argue HOTU is universal, you have the same problem for Lucifer.

People can argue around it all you want, but apart from 1 statement by god, if you compare only feat, literally there is nothing Lucifer has done that is better than say what Eternity has done.

Here's what Dormammu had to explain about Eternity's power.

Can you show me a single feat from Lucifer, Michael or even both together , without supposedly ABC logic, could you show me a feat that is better than this?

Let everyone on the thread see it for what it is

I don't know much about Lucifer and don't really care about DC. I was merely trying to debunk Marvel feats. I was under the impression that Lucifer actually had multiversal feats (being as people compare him to Living Tribunal), but if it only comes from power scaling, then it can't be used. As you can see from the link, power scaling can't be used in DC either.

Power levels change based on the writer. Eternity for most of his incarnations is only universal. Also Marvel writers don't care about power scaling on VS forums, as confirmed by Tom Brevoort (who's basically the Akira Toriyama of Marvel) himself.

http://brevoortformspring.tumblr.com/post/123784086828/hi-tom-theres-been-a-lot-of-heated-debate-about#notes

http://brevoortformspring.tumblr.com/post/114667242403/i-dont-understand-how-the-beyonders-could-wipe

"We need to stop thinking of these power relationships in such simple linear and black and white terms. if real life worked like that, there’d be no need for sporting events of any kind–you could tell which person or team was going to win without a game, from just looking at the stats."

The Beyonders killed Living Tribunal, but were killed by solar system level beings, and completely wiped out by a blast that only destroyed thousands of universes.

I already proved you wrong. Did you even bothered replying to my post ... i suggest to recheck Secret wars issue 5. It was the clash between the beyonders regardless you have simply zero evidence that they were killed by Universal forces . That's a lame claim.

Hell. Not even the scans bear your utterance !!

Heart of the Universe only absorbed a single universe. Nowhere in the story does it say that HotU is multiversal. You can either believe that he only defeated an M-Body of LT (as many weaker beings have done so), or accept that power scaling doesn't work in Marvel. Either way, HotU is only universal.

I already proved that :

LOL no i proved that wrong eternity along is Multiversal+ an yet Thanos Hotu wished him out of existence utterly.

Eternity is the Embodiment of the Multiverse :

Dormammu using Eternity's power to recreate the multiverse.

Gallery

Genis-Vell and Entropy kill Eternity in order to destroy the multiverse.

Gallery

Check post's 33 and 38 and 52. Were i proved your claim's wrong !!! The Heart of Infinity is Multiversal+ in raw of power.

@realitywarper said:

@thebestofthebest said:

@realitywarper said:

@thebestofthebest: In my opinion it was an Universe but I'm not totally sure about it

Right ! Thanks man ^^

Michael is not Multiversal,other characters with his power only created a UNIVERSE:

All that power and still no penis. I just can't get right with that.

@mazeraiii: Good one XD

@mazeraiii: @thebestofthebest: @realitywarper: Anyone else ever noticed that LT is just a naked man fresh from the shower with a towel on his head and no penis...?

Luifer is above MULTIverse. He is stronger than Mxy who is multiversal+

This argument is hard

@the_caped_crusader said:

@ragnar_lodhbrok said:

@the_caped_crusader said:

@khael said:

@the_caped_crusader:

I don't know, what was this comic?

That was a crossover, and crossovers are non-canon. LT never held two megaverses in his hand. The brothers Yin and Yang were the guardians of the two megaverses, not the embodiments.

And if you actually read the scan, it says LT held energy that could wipe out galaxies. Not to mention he's explicitly stated as being the supreme entity of the multiverse.

Crossover comic, still non-canon.

And if you actually read the scan, it says LT held energy that could wipe out galaxies

Galaxies are peanuts at this level. I hope you knew that.

Not to mention he's explicitly stated as being the supreme entity of the multiverse.

Are you kidding? He is not the supreme entity of the multiverse. TOAA is.

Think before you post.

I know but people are trying to use that scan to try proving that LT is somehow stronger than he already is and can solo fiction or something.

Not really. The brothers are just guardians of a single universe. They are universal entities, with multi galaxy level capabilities.

Exactly. Some people think words like megaverse and omniverse make LT stronger, even though they are made up terms and he is only multiversal.

Anyway, Thanos with HOTU solos, Protege solos. They are greater than LT, a 16-dimensional god. Lucifer and Michael are 11-dimensional at best.

Team 2

@evil_incarnate said:

@realitywarper said:

@thebestofthebest said:

@realitywarper said:

@thebestofthebest: In my opinion it was an Universe but I'm not totally sure about it

Right ! Thanks man ^^

Michael is not Multiversal,other characters with his power only created a UNIVERSE:

All that power and still no penis. I just can't get right with that.

That thing is actually addressed in the comics.

@tonychu: Who are those people???

Lol.

@evil_incarnate: The one with short black hair is Elaine, Lucifer's niece & newest God of creation. One with mask is Mazikeen, his lover, and one with white dress is Mona, Elaine's "best friend" (if you know what I mean). Don't remember other two.

Protege and Thanos wins.

Either of the Angels solo also life would be a lot easier if we just stopped using this damn universal/multiversals statment lucifer and Michael being multiversal is undeniable anyone who is willing to go by those statements should accept all his other high end statements also

About Lucifer & Michael being Universals ?

@realitywarper: yes did the writer actually state they were him stating it was merly a cosmos contradicts what he says about it being all encompassing all encompassing means everything not a mere universe

I wan,to see what he said next I hardly doubt he inteded a diving being who is second to God and can swat multiversals beings like spectre to be merly universal don,t nitpick

It's a good question.

@realitywarper: also if you wanna call it a universe so to say he has other feats a swell that make him multiversals your,e whole argument is based on one stupid statment also why would the writer who clearly stated that death of the endless (the true death) in fx who is the end of the dc multiverse be below lucifer wouldn't, that make lucifer vastly weaker He did shape her and all her power too you should take all this into consideration it would be ludacris for the writer to intend for being who shaped ideas concept and time to weaker than beings likespectre who himself is far above universal read crisis on infinite earths and yet is below lucifer and micheal by a good margin micheal did three shot him of course without the demuirgos too I think your,e looking to deep into it

You can say what you want.

There is at least 9 scans that quote L&M creating an Universe in the comics.

On the other hand :

https://www.wordnik.com/words/all-encompassing

Definitions

from Wiktionary, Creative Commons Attribution/Share-Alike License

• adj. including everything; universal

from WordNet 3.0 Copyright 2006 by Princeton University. All rights reserved.

• adj. broad in scope or content

All-encompassing = Universal

@realitywarper: you seem to be missing the point there are nine statments yes but at the end of the day their just statments the mean nothing you can,t just ignore all of the characters feats cause of a few statment feats sre much more relaible what if I told you the author had change his mind and had mean,t it to be a multiverse that would be a retcon and nirvana is an example of that my point is their statments writers could do what they wan,t with them they hold no meaning why because it was never backed up in this case it has been contradicted time and time again by feats wich make them even more unreliable there s reason why most people choose to take that his one statment as him beingmultiversal over the universal one why cause it was backed by feats and now by writers own words "a creation in compasses a everything" it would downright foolishness to refute that also you seem to be forgetting all his high end statments too if you wish to use statment then you can,t refute his other hyperboles lucifer and micheal are multiversals mate put your,e bias aside and accept it. Also by our terms universal in the real world is multiversals in marvel and because our universe is infinite

Point is it's a damn comic stop using real world logic that's low bro

If we go by the dictionary then technically marvels omnivores and megaverse don,t exist

No one has answered this question. Assuming Thanos lets Protege copy his powers (which he will as this is a TEAM battle), would Michael and Lucy be able to prevent Protege from copying them? IMO the answer is NO.

People neglect the team part of team battles. Protege w/ HOTU powers copies Lucy and Michael, game over.

Here we go again

Possibly stalemate

@emeraldeazy: lol, if you really meant that, then you did not read anyone's post. I have answered that and more. Also, if you know Thanos, then you would know he is not the type of guy who would allow someone to be as powerful as he is. And if Thanos does not allow that, then Protege has limited powers to copy.

@dawnone: It remains an Universe according to the writer words.

@realitywarper: did you pay attention to anything You said it remains a universe according to your,e word you just twisted and manipluted his word by bringing random nonsense and definition in a dictionary a dictionary isn,t writers word for example you think the dictionary would take into account a multiverse no one in real life has proven they,s even more than one universe so by all means yes a universe in real life is all encompassing but real life is not bequal dc we know for sure cd has more than one universe thee writer said all encompassing so he'll by his word that includes the presence multiverse also but if you don,t believe me then we know there is more than one universe why because lucifer opened an infinite amount of doors across his multiverse Sugessting that's the multiverse is infiniteto connect it to yahwehs if it was merly a universe he would need one so that debunks your,e argument now please show me the writer flat out stating that it was a universe no such thing was ever stated your,e being heavily biased and ignoring all his other feats and basing his power on just one statement and trying to nitpick him in all areas so if you wanna do that then I gues thou is universal so as lt cause he lost to it and the rest of the abstracts

@dawnone: If you can't deal with the writer saying that L&M being Universal that's not my problem.

Let's agree to disagree.

@realitywarper: the writer said his creation was all encompassing that all he said nothing more nothing less no matter how much theory you bring up it is meaning less cause he never flat out says a universe the writer isn,t a dictionary dictionary's vary there might be a dictionary that calls it a multiverse what would you say about that all we know that it's sll encompasssing due to the nature of dc and the story it would highly suggest that it was multiversals rather than uni but we all have our own opinions for all I know it could be universal as the writer hasn,t flat out said it was multiversals always best to leave opinions as what it is opinions so let's agree to disagree good debating

@dawnone:

Didn't read.

Thanos and Protege wins.

If HOTU can absorb a single universe then it is capable of destroying multiple universes

This could still be a stalemate but michael and lucifier are severely outmatched here

Thanos with HOTU possibly solos

Correct me if I'm wrong, since I have serious catching up to do on the Lucifer series, but aren't Michael and Lucifer working together basically an omnipotent, omniversal duo?

Thee is little evidence to show they are multiversal

@taylan93: that was total PIS

@baron_von_santa: need scans of lucifer creating the endless

Thanos solos, Protege solos