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#1 Posted by ComicsrulebutDBZdoes2 (7566 posts) - - Show Bio

no need for setting when it comes to powers of this magnitude

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#2 Posted by skyroid (2646 posts) - - Show Bio

This has been done to death, really man?

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#3 Posted by Khael (15331 posts) - - Show Bio

This battle been done so many time but the results are the same ( Everybody just keep posting without knowing MD & LM feats )

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#4 Posted by MasterKungFu (20773 posts) - - Show Bio

lucy manipulates him

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#5 Posted by Khael (15331 posts) - - Show Bio

I we go by feats then Michael and Lucifer wins

But if we go by hype and Statement then Beyonder

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#6 Edited by haoalchemist (6196 posts) - - Show Bio

@khael said:

This battle been done so many time but the results are the same ( Everybody just keep posting without knowing MD & LM feats )

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#7 Posted by Battle123axe (9056 posts) - - Show Bio

Feats:Powers and AbilitiesEdit

Powers

The Beyonder has the general ability to manipulate reality. He has vast psionic abilities, can easily change states of matter, and has a host of different powers. He is endowed with superhuman strength of such an extent that it is potentially incalculable. Using his ability to manipulate reality, he can, in effect, regenerate damage done to his body by simply willing it repaired. Other powers include teleportation, flight, the ability to choose his own physical resistances and attributes, as well as the ability to move others from one place to another via teleportation, such as the heroes and villains he moved through spacetime to his 'Battleworld' construct in the original Secret Wars. He can make or destroy a multiverse.

Inherent in his almost limitless psionic abilities the Beyonder has the potential to affect reality in a manner that could, in theory, simulate virtually any power.

Power Grid [27]

Intelligence

7

Strength

7

Speed

7

Durability

7

Energy Projection

7

Fighting Skills

6

Strength level

Due to his Nigh-omnipotence, he has limitless strength.

Weaknesses

The Beyonder possesses no inherent weaknesses, but he was, at one time, stripped of his powers by Doctor Victor Von Doom in Battleworld and later became mortal through his own devises by investing his power into a machine. It is possible for the Beyonder to be weakened, albeit by performing such a great feat as destroying a fundamental force of the universe such as Death. Even in this state, however, he was incredibly powerful, having enough strength to at least banish a legion of demons back to Hell in one motion.[17] The Puma when in perfect harmony with the universe was also claimed to be able to destroy the Beyonder. The Beyonder also had to exert himself in battle against the Molecule Man, and he was once overloaded by the Rachel Summers Phoenix, after which he collapsed on the ground. Despite the above facts, he was claimed to be either omnipotent or nigh omnipotent on different occasions, and to have power millions of times greater than Multiversal scale. Similarly, despite claiming to be omniscient, he had no knowledge of the multiverse outside of his own realm, and had to learn everything by experience.

ParaphernaliaEdit

Transportation

Extra-dimensional teleportation using his own power.

NotesEdit

In New Avengers Illuminati Vol 2 #3, the apparent revelation of the Beyonder's true origin led to a confrontation with the Beyonder during the events of the second Secret War, wherein Black Bolt expressed his extreme displeasure toward the Beyonder's activities. When encountered, the Beyonder was dwelling in a simulacrum of Manhattan Island on Ceres, a dwarf planet in the asteroid belt. The scene playing out was one from the Secret Wars II series (the destruction of Power Man and Iron Fist's headquarters). At the 2007 Philadelphia Comic-Con, writer Brian Michael Bendis admitted the asteroid scene was deliberately vague, allowing readers to draw their own connections to Secret Wars II. He also claimed he did not receive enough credit for maintaining the character's 1987 jeri-curl. The story itself is deliberately ambiguous; Black Bolt, for example, does not remember the mutant Inhuman who vanished, making it possible the Beyonder arranged all this as a mind game. Story's connection to modern continuity is unclear: the scene depicted on the asteroid is one which remains in continuity.

If the Beyonder indeed was a Mutant Inhuman, then none of the stories involving him as a Cosmic Cube could logically have happened, as the Beyonder was not such a being, and the Shaper and Kubik's statements of the sort were incorrect. This may have been Marvel's way of retconning problematic implications stemming from those stories.

Originally, the entity known as the Beyonder comprised all of the other-dimensional universe, called the "Beyond-Realm," in which he existed. The entity was entirely unaware of the existence of other beings until, several years ago, the atomic accident that transformed laboratory worker Owen Reece into the superhuman Molecule Man opened an inter-dimensional "pinhole" between the Beyond-Realm and the universe in which Earth exists.[4]

It has recently been confirmed by Tom Brevoort that the Beyonder's supposed Inhuman origin is in fact false. It was most likely an unambiguous scene or a ploy by the Beyonder (hinting to the wink he makes).

Powers and AbilitiesEdit

Powers

Nigh-Omnipotence: Lucifer is able to manipulate any external force for any effect he desires. He cannot, however, create something out of nothing; for this he needs the Demiurgic force of his brother Michael, and later his niece Elaine. Together, Michael and Lucifer are capable of creating anything from living beings to entire multiverses. His most common use of power is calling forth the fire of the various suns he used to birth and burning his opponents to ashes.

Energy Projection

Absolute Immortality: Lucifer will never grow physically old and can live forever. He is billions of years old. Only the Presence is said to have the ability to destroy him.

Invulnerability

Matter Absorption

Reality Alteration

Superhuman Stamina

Superhuman Strength

Enhanced Intellect

As a psychopomp, Lucifer can choose the soul's destination if he kill a person or supernatural being (as a demon). He killed Musubi by her own will; she allowed it to free herself from Izanami's service.

Abilities

Deception

Genius Level Intellect

Indomitable Will

Occultism

TriviaEdit

Lucifer means “Bringer of Light”, "Light Bearer" in Latin. His (supposed) name in Hebrew is Sammael, which means "Poison of God".

Lucifer is also known as Satan, The Devil, The Lightbringer, Atse'Hashke, The Maker, The Mocker.

Powers and AbilitiesEdit

Powers

Relative Omnipotence: The archangel Michael Demuirgos is the second most powerful being in the universe, equaled only by his twin brother, Lucifer, and surpassed only by their father, the God of the Covenant. When an unbound Spectre attempted to break through the doors of heaven in order to take back the soul of Jim Corrigan, it was Michael who defeated the Spectre in battle, and banished him away to another plane.

ParaphernaliaEdit

Weapons

Michael's Sword

TriviaEdit

In the beginning, Michael was given the Demiurge power by Yahweh, which gave him the ability to enable the physical creation of the cosmos to occur. However, although it was Michael's Demiurge power that created the universe out of nothingness, it was Lucifer who willed it into existence using his infinite will. Michael's only limitation is that he cannot manipulate what he has created, meaning that he cannot give shape to his creation. Only his twin brother, Lucifer, is capable of doing that. Together, Michael and Lucifer are capable of creating entire multiverses.

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#8 Edited by Khael (15331 posts) - - Show Bio

@battle123axe: Nice post man, but i mean multiversal feats from Lucifer and Michael like Destroy Multieverse, tanking blast that can destroy Creation, etc.

But it's really nice post.

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#9 Posted by YIFY (1599 posts) - - Show Bio

@khael said:

@battle123axe: Nice post man, but i mean multiversal feats from Lucifer and Michael like Destroy and create Multieverse, tanking blast that can destroy Creation, etc.

But it's really nice post.

Isn't Lucifer practically powerless without Michael?

What I mean by that is, Lucifer can create a universe from 1 particle, but he cannot create that first particle.

-yify

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#10 Posted by Khael (15331 posts) - - Show Bio

@yify said:
@khael said:

@battle123axe: Nice post man, but i mean multiversal feats from Lucifer and Michael like Destroy and create Multieverse, tanking blast that can destroy Creation, etc.

But it's really nice post.

Isn't Lucifer practically powerless without Michael?

What I mean by that is, Lucifer can create a universe from 1 particle, but he cannot create that first particle.

-yify

Yes, Lucifer is powerless without Michael since he has nothing to manipulate.

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#11 Posted by AgentofChaos1 (2578 posts) - - Show Bio

Brothers stomp

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#12 Edited by skyroid (2646 posts) - - Show Bio

@yify: Lucifer powerless?

Lucifer's power is manipulation.

Being able to manipulate anything.

Like manipulating a blast that can erase creation to create a multiverse.

Mind you, he wasn't given the power, the power was in a form of a blast, Lucifer tanked it without scratch and molded it into a multiverse.

Where do ppl get the idea that Lucifer is powerless.

Only one here who actually has feat to prove of having limitless power is Michael.

By feat Michael stomps> Lucifer>>>> hotu& beyonder>>>> ivory kings, ivory kings powered doom>>>>> Lt

Lucifer actually created a multiverse on panel from scratch

Created DC along with his brother

Destroyed logos the voice of GOD

Took a blast from the dunamis demiurges (God's power) that can erases creation without any harm

His presence destroyed countless creations, universes and realms,

created The Endless therefore not subject to death

He couldn't even die when his own power was used against him, all that did was bring him "in between stops" as death her self said

And no need to mention Michael as he's the vassel to God given limitless power.

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#13 Edited by KingTPhil (1730 posts) - - Show Bio

This has been done countless times. It depends on what you go by. Michael and Lucifer win by CV standards, because they have the feats to back them up. PR Beyonder is possibly the most hyped comic book character ever. He's completely based off of statements.

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#14 Posted by skyroid (2646 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingtphil: And his statements contradicts it's self billion times.

Apparently Beyonder himself claims he's bound by TIME.

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#15 Posted by The_Caped_Crusader (10533 posts) - - Show Bio

Michael and Lucifer.

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#16 Posted by MaZeRaIII (4725 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by Spiderman1997 (2349 posts) - - Show Bio

PR Beyonder had every single abstract and Living Tribunal at his knees. Living Tribunal was also onlu second to TOAA much like Michael and Lucifer are second only to Presence. When Beyonder entered the Marvel Multiverse he became one with the multiverse and the whole thing became his mere imagination(that's what he said in SW 2). IMO he is a notch above the brothers.@mysticmedivh: Would it be a problem if I asked you to fact check this ? It's been a while since I even saw a scan of SW 2 let alone read it.

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#18 Posted by Keikai (1685 posts) - - Show Bio

Beyonder.

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#19 Edited by Khael (15331 posts) - - Show Bio

@skyroid: I want to ask you a question: If Michael didn't create anything, What can Lucifer do since he have nothing to manipulate ?

@skyroid said:

@yify: Lucifer powerless?

Without Michael yes, with Michael no.

Lucifer's power is manipulation.

Nice, but i think everybody know that

Being able to manipulate anything.

What if he has nothing to manipulate

Like manipulating a blast that can erase creation to create a multiverse.

And that blast just not popped up right, Michael created it

Mind you, he wasn't given the power, the power was in a form of a blast, Lucifer tanked it without scratch and molded it into a multiverse.

Like i said, if Michael didn't create that blast, Lucifer Can't create Multiverse and he have nothing to tank

Where do ppl get the idea that Lucifer is powerless.

I think they get that idea from logic

@spiderman1997 said:

PR Beyonder had every single abstract and Living Tribunal at his knees. Living Tribunal was also onlu second to TOAA much like Michael and Lucifer are second only to Presence. When Beyonder entered the Marvel Multiverse he became one with the multiverse and the whole thing became his mere imagination(that's what he said in SW 2). IMO he is a notch above the brothers.@mysticmedivh: Would it be a problem if I asked you to fact check this ? It's been a while since I even saw a scan of SW 2 let alone read it.

Like everybody said Michael create every single abstract so Pick one and by what FEATS you put LT on the brother level. That imagination become nightmare when Doom stole his power.

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#20 Posted by traskindustries (2521 posts) - - Show Bio

If Beyonder is in-character, he'd probably somehow lose to Lucifer alone, because he (Beyonder) isnt exactly the smartest villain ever. But if he's not in-character (meaning, no PIS) he should win.

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#21 Posted by Khael (15331 posts) - - Show Bio

Pre-Retcon Beyonder wins.

Pre-Retcon Beyonder was Ultipotent.

http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Ultipotence

Great, the power that defy logic itself

If Beyonder is in-character, he'd probably somehow lose to Lucifer alone, because he (Beyonder) isnt exactly the smartest villain ever. But if he's not in-character (meaning, no PIS) he should win.

You should explain how he win if it's moral off

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#22 Posted by Aatroxxx (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucy solos if Beyonder is morals on, probably messes around/underestimate him.

Morals off can see Beyonder winning.

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#23 Posted by Khael (15331 posts) - - Show Bio

@aatroxx said:

Lucy solos if Beyonder is morals on, probably messes around/underestimate him.

Morals off can see Beyonder winning.

I can see Beyonder winning too IF his statements are true. ( This guy have lot of statement )

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#24 Posted by Khael (15331 posts) - - Show Bio

I think this battle will be even if we put Molecule man but of course it's been done so many time.

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#25 Posted by traskindustries (2521 posts) - - Show Bio

@khael said:

You should explain how he win if it's moral off

By having more power?

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#26 Posted by Khael (15331 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Edited by traskindustries (2521 posts) - - Show Bio

@khael said:

And what feats make you think he's more powerful?

He was the most powerful being in the whole Marvel omniverse, and he proved it many times. He was not the smartest though lol

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#28 Posted by Khael (15331 posts) - - Show Bio

@khael said:

And what feats make you think he's more powerful?

He was the most powerful being in the whole Marvel omniverse.

The most powerful being in marvel, huh.

You realize Lucifer and Michael Are the most powerful being in DCverse, right ?

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#29 Edited by traskindustries (2521 posts) - - Show Bio

@khael said:
@traskindustries said:
@khael said:

And what feats make you think he's more powerful?

He was the most powerful being in the whole Marvel omniverse.

The most powerful being in marvel, huh.

You realize Lucifer and Michael Are the most powerful being in DCverse, right ?

Presence is above them, how could you not know this? And yes, Beyonder was the most powerful being in Marvel before the retcon.

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#30 Posted by Khael (15331 posts) - - Show Bio

@khael said:
@traskindustries said:
@khael said:

And what feats make you think he's more powerful?

He was the most powerful being in the whole Marvel omniverse.

The most powerful being in marvel, huh.

You realize Lucifer and Michael Are the most powerful being in DCverse, right ?

Presence is above them, how could you not know this? And yes, Beyonder was the most powerful being in Marvel before the retcon.

TOAA is above him, how could you not know this? and yes Michael and Lucifer is the most powerful being in DC excluding Presence

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#31 Edited by traskindustries (2521 posts) - - Show Bio

@khael said:
@traskindustries said:
@khael said:
@traskindustries said:
@khael said:

And what feats make you think he's more powerful?

He was the most powerful being in the whole Marvel omniverse.

The most powerful being in marvel, huh.

You realize Lucifer and Michael Are the most powerful being in DCverse, right ?

Presence is above them, how could you not know this? And yes, Beyonder was the most powerful being in Marvel before the retcon.

TOAA is above him, how could you not know this? and yes Michael and Lucifer is the most powerful being in DC excluding Presence

Could you post some scans of TOAA? any feats or stuff like that? No? Thought so.

TOAA is not a being, how could you not know this? And you didnt say "excluding Presence" in the first place, thats why I informed you.

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#32 Edited by Khael (15331 posts) - - Show Bio

@traskindustries:

@traskindustries said:
@khael said:
@traskindustries said:
@khael said:
@traskindustries said:
@khael said:

And what feats make you think he's more powerful?

He was the most powerful being in the whole Marvel omniverse.

The most powerful being in marvel, huh.

You realize Lucifer and Michael Are the most powerful being in DCverse, right ?

Presence is above them, how could you not know this? And yes, Beyonder was the most powerful being in Marvel before the retcon.

TOAA is above him, how could you not know this? and yes Michael and Lucifer is the most powerful being in DC excluding Presence

Could you post some scans of TOAA? any feats or stuff like that? Thought so.

TOAA is not a being, how could you not know this? And you didnt say "excluding Presence" in the first place, thats why I informed you.

I don't have the scan, but he created freakin marvel including Beyonder ( Since he's the writer ). And Presence above Michael and Lucifer is common knowledge

Being most powerful being in marvel is not impressive at all, i mean if Michael and Lucifer come to Marvel they will become the most powerful being too excluding TOAA of course

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#33 Edited by YIFY (1599 posts) - - Show Bio

@skyroid said:

@yify: Lucifer powerless?

Lucifer's power is manipulation.

Being able to manipulate anything.

Like manipulating a blast that can erase creation to create a multiverse.

Mind you, he wasn't given the power, the power was in a form of a blast, Lucifer tanked it without scratch and molded it into a multiverse.

Where do ppl get the idea that Lucifer is powerless.

Only one here who actually has feat to prove of having limitless power is Michael.

By feat Michael stomps> Lucifer>>>> hotu& beyonder>>>> ivory kings, ivory kings powered doom>>>>> Lt

Lucifer actually created a multiverse on panel from scratch

Created DC along with his brother

Destroyed logos the voice of GOD

Took a blast from the dunamis demiurges (God's power) that can erases creation without any harm

His presence destroyed countless creations, universes and realms,

created The Endless therefore not subject to death

He couldn't even die when his own power was used against him, all that did was bring him "in between stops" as death her self said

And no need to mention Michael as he's the vassel to God given limitless power.

Did you even read what I typed?

Isn't Lucifer practically powerless without Michael?

What I mean by that is, Lucifer can create a universe from 1 particle, but he cannot create that first particle.

-yify

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#34 Posted by Khael (15331 posts) - - Show Bio

@yify: If Michael didn't create anything Lucifer can't manipulate anything.

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#35 Posted by YIFY (1599 posts) - - Show Bio

@khael said:

@yify: If Michael didn't create anything Lucifer can't manipulate anything.

That's what I'm trying to tell Skyroid.

-yify

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#36 Edited by traskindustries (2521 posts) - - Show Bio

@khael said:

I don't have the scan, but he created freakin marvel including Beyonder ( Since he's the writer ). And Presence above Michael and Lucifer is common sense

Being most powerful being in marvel is not impressive at all, i mean if Michael and Lucifer come to Marvel they will become the most powerful being too excluding TOAA of course

You dont have any scans because there are no scans of TOAA. Because he is not a character, its a real person in real life like you said. Presence above Michael and Lucy is common sense, but you didnt exactly display that common sense when you said the brothers are the strongest in DC.

"Being most powerful being in marvel is not impressive at all" and I could say that being the most powerful being in DC is not impressive at all. What kind of an argument is that lol? And for the third time, TOAA is not a being, can you understand this concept?

"i mean if Michael and Lucifer come to Marvel they will become the most powerful being" not if PR Beyonder stands in their way, no.

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#37 Posted by Khael (15331 posts) - - Show Bio
@khael said:

I don't have the scan, but he created freakin marvel including Beyonder ( Since he's the writer ). And Presence above Michael and Lucifer is common sense

Being most powerful being in marvel is not impressive at all, i mean if Michael and Lucifer come to Marvel they will become the most powerful being too excluding TOAA of course

You dont have any scans because there are no scans of TOAA. Because he is not a character, its a real person in real life like you said. Presence above Michael and Lucy is common sense, but you didnt exactly display that common sense when you said the brothers are the strongest in DC.

"Being most powerful being in marvel is not impressive at all" and I could say that being the most powerful being in DC is not impressive at all. What kind of an argument is that lol? And for the third time, TOAA is not a being, can you understand this concept?

"i mean if Michael and Lucifer come to Marvel they will become the most powerful being" not if PR Beyonder stands in their way, no.

Lol, so what you're trying to explain in the first place and this battle is about them, to be honest you're not explaining why PR Beyonder is above them AT ALL.

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#38 Posted by traskindustries (2521 posts) - - Show Bio

@khael:

Doom almost destroys all of reality with Beyonder's powers.

No Caption Provided

Beyonder takes control of every molecule and every atom in the world just because he wished so.

No Caption Provided

Gives Dazzler half of his powers, which is a thousand times more energy than in all of existence.

No Caption Provided

After killing Death, Beyonder creates her again while being severely weakened.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Beyonder got a little angry and almost destroyed the multiverse.

No Caption Provided

How much more do you need?

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#39 Posted by Spiderman1997 (2349 posts) - - Show Bio

@khael: Michael didn't create anything in the Marvel Universe though I might have interpreted your post wrong so if I did please pount out. And LT holding abd judging two Megaverses(>multiverse) while holding them in his hands puts him on the brothers' level.

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#40 Posted by Khael (15331 posts) - - Show Bio

@khael:

Doom almost destroys all of reality with Beyonder's powers.

No Caption Provided

Beyonder takes control of every molecule and every atom in the world just because he wished so.

No Caption Provided

Gives Dazzler half of his powers, which is a thousand times more energy than in all of existence.

No Caption Provided

After killing Death, Beyonder creates her again while being severely weakened.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Beyonder got a little angry and almost destroyed the multiverse.

No Caption Provided

How much more do you need?

Almost destroy reality ( Michael create blast that can erase the multiverse )

Beyonder kill Death ( Michael create Death of the endless in the first place )

Beyonder destroy the multiverse because he's angry ( if Michael forgot to create multiverse the multiverse won't be created in the first place )

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#41 Posted by MrHamWallet (3194 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't really know about Michael and Lucifer so can't comment, but if they can bear pre recon beyonder that means they could brat LT...which seems a little farfetched?

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#42 Posted by Khael (15331 posts) - - Show Bio

@khael: Michael didn't create anything in the Marvel Universe though I might have interpreted your post wrong so if I did please pount out. And LT holding abd judging two Megaverses(>multiverse) while holding them in his hands puts him on the brothers' level.

Yeah i mean everything in DC, lol

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#43 Posted by traskindustries (2521 posts) - - Show Bio

@khael said:

Almost destroy reality ( Michael create blast that can erase the multiverse )

Beyonder kill Death ( Michael create Death of the endless in the first place )

Beyonder destroy the multiverse because he's angry ( if Michael forgot to create multiverse the multiverse won't be created in the first place )

Beyonder could've erased the multiverse too. Beyonder killed and created Death too. Beyonder is the Beyonderverse, which is much much larger than the multiverse.

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#44 Posted by Khael (15331 posts) - - Show Bio

@khael said:

Almost destroy reality ( Michael create blast that can erase the multiverse )

Beyonder kill Death ( Michael create Death of the endless in the first place )

Beyonder destroy the multiverse because he's angry ( if Michael forgot to create multiverse the multiverse won't be created in the first place )

Beyonder could've erased the multiverse too. Beyonder killed and created Death too. Beyonder is the Beyonderverse, which is much much larger than the multiverse.

But we never see this Beyonderverse.

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#45 Posted by Spiderman1997 (2349 posts) - - Show Bio

@khael: It's beyond our imagonations I bet XD

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#46 Posted by traskindustries (2521 posts) - - Show Bio

@khael said:
@traskindustries said:
@khael said:

Almost destroy reality ( Michael create blast that can erase the multiverse )

Beyonder kill Death ( Michael create Death of the endless in the first place )

Beyonder destroy the multiverse because he's angry ( if Michael forgot to create multiverse the multiverse won't be created in the first place )

Beyonder could've erased the multiverse too. Beyonder killed and created Death too. Beyonder is the Beyonderverse, which is much much larger than the multiverse.

But we never see this Beyonderverse.

Wrong again.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

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#47 Edited by MysticMedivh (32250 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderman1997 said:

PR Beyonder had every single abstract and Living Tribunal at his knees. Living Tribunal was also onlu second to TOAA much like Michael and Lucifer are second only to Presence. When Beyonder entered the Marvel Multiverse he became one with the multiverse and the whole thing became his mere imagination(that's what he said in SW 2). IMO he is a notch above the brothers.@mysticmedivh: Would it be a problem if I asked you to fact check this ? It's been a while since I even saw a scan of SW 2 let alone read it.

When the Beyonder entered the Marvel multiverse he didn't become one with it. He was one with the multiverse he came from. With that said the Marvel multiverse was as insignificant to him as say a droplet of water compared to an ocean. To him, yes, everything was as if it was his imagination, as thanks to his powers he could do virtually anything.

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#48 Posted by Spiderman1997 (2349 posts) - - Show Bio
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#49 Posted by Claymore1998 (16541 posts) - - Show Bio

Beyonder

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#50 Posted by MaZeRaIII (4725 posts) - - Show Bio