Mephisto Vs. Satannish

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VS.

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  • Takes place in neutral territory
  • Win by any means

Which demon is more powerful?

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Claymore1998

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#3  Edited By Claymore1998

Stalemate.

We haven't really seen the real limit of what either of them can do and both of them are regarded as being the more powerful side of the whole hell-lords clan. Whoever wins would be decided by a hair's breath.

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LordWhiskers

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#4  Edited By LordWhiskers

I'm pretty sure Mephisto has already been beaten in his realm by Satannish.

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Tzimiscelord

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Stalemate, they ahve been stated as equal many times

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deactivated-1351355

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@claymore1998 said:

Stalemate.

We haven't really seen the real limit of what either of them can do and both of them are regarded as being the more powerful side of the whole hell-lords clan. Whoever wins would be decided by a hair's breath.

Unlikely.

If we think about it, Satannish has more wins and good showings over Mephisto than vice-versa.They had a stalemate in the Earth-Plane back in Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme#8, but Satannish was later able to go beyond that and even stalemate Mephisto in Mephy's Dimension during Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme#30. They fought once again in Satannish's Dimension during West Coast Avengers#100, although Mephisto was amped by using the souls of that dimension to hold his own. Satannish was able to easily imprison Mephisto from behind some years later in a sneak attack during Hellcat#2, but Mephisto later got his revenge in the next issue( Both of these showings happened while still inside of Mephy's Realm, though). Mephisto defeated Satannish once again in a sneak attack during X-Factor#254....And by using a weapon(Trident) of unknown properties. I don't think it's that debatable and would back Satannish way more often. Satannish also isn't a jobber as Mephisto.

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NewWorldOrder

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Satannish

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Darth_Nimrod

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Satannish.

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Claymore1998

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@laylah said:

Unlikely.

If we think about it, Satannish has more wins and good showings over Mephisto than vice-versa.They had a stalemate in the Earth-Plane back in Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme#8, but Satannish was later able to go beyond that and even stalemate Mephisto in Mephy's Dimension during Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme#30. They fought once again in Satannish's Dimension during West Coast Avengers#100, although Mephisto was amped by using the souls of that dimension to hold his own. Satannish was able to easily imprison Mephisto from behind some years later in a sneak attack during Hellcat#2, but Mephisto later got his revenge in the next issue( Both of these showings happened while still inside of Mephy's Realm, though). Mephisto defeated Satannish once again in a sneak attack during X-Factor#254....And by using a weapon(Trident) of unknown properties. I don't think it's that debatable and would back Satannish way more often. Satannish also isn't a jobber as Mephisto.

Hehe so 2 guys who fight often, have similar wins and losses and hold the same spot in cosmic pantheon seems equal to me. If anything your argument directly supports it.

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deactivated-1351355

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@claymore1998 said:

Hehe so 2 guys who fight often, have similar wins and losses and hold the same spot in cosmic pantheon seems equal to me. If anything your argument directly supports it.

Similiar? No.

Hence why I said: "Satannish has more wins and good showings over Mephisto than vice-versa." Mephisto victories over Satannish are usually with some sort of context in the middle, such as either using an amp or objects. How does that make their losses and victories similar then? Fighting often doesn't mean that said battles are neither one-sided or full of context. Why titles have to be strictly related to power? It's not like Satannish only occupies that position in Hell and arguably not something beyond because his master wishes to have him as a sleep agent, right?

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chiq

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Bump

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Alastor0

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Ends in sex

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OgreLordShrek

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Satannish kinda stomps

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SladerAcer

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#14  Edited By SladerAcer

Who’s more powerful? Depends on the situation. They already stalemated each other on neutral grounds so victory from either side is 50/50

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Andromeda1001

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Satannish is currently the king of the Hell-Lords as per Doctor Strange Vol.5#16:

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He should win these days.

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ProfessorRespect

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#17  Edited By ProfessorRespect

@andromeda1001: Wouldn't he be king of the Hell Lords anyway given Dormlactus had consumed most of the mystical realms? lol

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Andromeda1001

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@professorrespect: I assume his title actually came before that, and Mephisto's Hades was mostly intact during the whole arc, only being affected when Strange dissipated the energies of Galactus in Doctor Strange Vol.5#16. So we can at least scale to him.

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Zetsu-San

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@professorrespect: I assume his title actually came before that, and Mephisto's Hades was mostly intact during the whole arc, only being affected when Strange dissipated the energies of Galactus in Doctor Strange Vol.5#16. So we can at least scale to him.

I think it’s an empty brag tbh. The throne of hell has always been something all the demons want to lay claim to, but never have the guts to really do so in front of the others.

And didn’t you argue that Mephisto being the Serpent of Eden makes him higher than Satannish not too long ago? lol

OT: I‘ve always felt like Satannish should be more powerful in a direct fight.

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Andromeda1001

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@zetsu-san said:

I think it’s an empty brag tbh. The throne of hell has always been something all the demons want to lay claim to, but never have the guts to really do so in front of the others.

And didn’t you argue that Mephisto being the Serpent of Eden makes him higher than Satannish not too long ago? lol

OT: I‘ve always felt like Satannish should be more powerful in a direct fight.

I don't think Satannish meant to be king of all demons or demoniac entities, but only the Cabal/Five-Fingered Hand. I think the throne of Satan is another matter altogether.

I did, but I was mostly referring to demons like Marduk and Thog. And after thinking more about it, I came to the conclusion that shouldn't weigh it so much.

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SladerAcer

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Kind of funny how some ppl on cv still confuse satanish even in 2024, the OPs pic version and current are not the same. Lol

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Andromeda1001

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#22  Edited By Andromeda1001

@sladeracer said:

Kind of funny how some ppl on cv still confuse satanish even in 2024, the OPs pic version and current are not the same. Lol

Because they are? I don't know what you're talking about.

It was confirmed by Umar herself as shown in the scan I posted above. Marvel Wiki separates them for some reason, but DoDS#3 and guidebooks have already confirmed it was the main reality. And that pic in the OP isn't even from any comics, but from Satannish's profile page in the guidebooks.

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Zetsu-San

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#23  Edited By Zetsu-San
@andromeda1001 said:

@sladeracer said:

Kind of funny how some ppl on cv still confuse satanish even in 2024, the OPs pic version and current are not the same. Lol

Because they are? I don't know what you're talking about.

It was confirmed by Umar herself as shown in the scan I posted above. Marvel Wiki separates them for some reason, but DoDS#3 and guidebooks have already confirmed it was the main reality. And that pic in the OP isn't even from any comics, but from Satannish's profile page in the guidebooks.

Sees First of the Fallen and Lucifer:

@sladeracer: "They're the exact same character!"

Sees old Satannish and current Satannish:

Also @sladeracer: "ThESe aRe SEParAtE ChARactErS gUYs!"

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Andromeda1001

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@zetsu-san: To be fair to him, Satannish was substituted by an identical demon called Molgotha for a time. As shown in his handbook page from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Horror 2005:

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The problem is that Satannish wasn't actually destroyed by Mephisto, but banished. He would return not so long after to the comics later, as can be seen in a future profile page from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A to Z#10:

No Caption Provided

So I assume that could be the reason for the mistake, but again, it's without a doubt Satannish in the scan I posted.

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Zetsu-San

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Andromeda1001

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#26  Edited By Andromeda1001

@zetsu-san said:

Mmm... I don't think you can mistake them. lol

They do seem to share some similarities and if you base it solely on the first handbook scan I posted, then it's hard to know where Molgotha's appearances end and Satannish's begin.

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Zetsu-San

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#27  Edited By Zetsu-San

@andromeda1001: I mean he's red and has a different face, not to mention the comic doesn't shy away from calling him Molgotha instead of Satannish.

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Andromeda1001

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@zetsu-san: I mean after the Magik series. The only reason we know it was Satannish again during the issues that would come in the future and not Morgotha, is because of the handbook. Satannish didn't have his name dropped in many of the comics. One could assume it wasn't him then.

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SladerAcer

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#29  Edited By SladerAcer

@andromeda1001:

Op’s pic originates from a sorcer supreme comic, where Sataanish’s origin is also Mephisto’s, in fact, they used to be one and the same. So In Marvel there are 2 of them, one is Mephisto’s twin bro the other is unrelated. Btw according to Dr. Strange, Agamotto also doesn’t know who’d win between them, even tuned in to see them fight on cosmic 4D TV.

So this topic is debatable.

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To the user who confused not only sataanish but also comic Lucifer check below he’s also called TFOTF@zestu-san which is blatant since he’s based on a biblical figure.

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Andromeda1001

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#30  Edited By Andromeda1001

@sladeracer: Op’s pic originates from a sorcer supreme comic, where Sataanish’s origin is also Mephisto’s, in fact, they used to be one and the same. So In Marvel there are 2 of them, one is Mephisto’s twin bro the other is unrelated. Btw according to Dr. Strange, Agamotto also doesn’t know who’d win between them, even tuned in to see them fight on cosmic 4D TV.

It doesn't. That art specifically originates from the guidebooks only, which date from 2005 or so(Way after the scans you posted). As far as Satannish and Mephisto being the same and existing two of them, it's not true. Satannish's origins were retconned later, but the events continued the same and were even referenced in Hellcat#2, which was published in the 2000s.

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SladerAcer

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@andromeda1001:

Fair enough. Tho, most Guidebooks are based on comics from way before, just with better art. Anyway, his retcon origins proves there’s a duplicate, and there’s only one that logically fits the OP.

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Andromeda1001

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@sladeracer said:

Fair enough. Tho, most Guidebooks are based on comics from way before, just with better art. Anyway, his retcon origins proves there’s a duplicate, and there’s only one that logically fits the OP.

His appearance in the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe Vol.1#3 is based on his initial appearances from that time, but the image in the OP first appeared Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Horror 2005, which mentions his appearances way after Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme#30. The retcon just proves that Strange and Mephisto were wrong about the origins, not that exists a duplicate. Heck, Dormammu himself says that to Satannish in the scan I posted.

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Zetsu-San

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@sladeracer: So let me get this straight. Satannish, who is based on Satan, getting an origin reveal is enough to convince you that that's a completely different character, who just happens to have the exact same name and visual appearance as Satannish, but FotF and Lucifer, who have completely different personalities, different goals, different power levels, different companions, etc. absolutely MUST be the same character because they are both based on Satan?

To the user who confused not only sataanish but also comic Lucifer check below he’s also called TFOTF@zestu-san which is blatant since he’s based on a biblical figure.

They literally play chess with each other:

No Caption Provided

We've even seen them on panel as separate characters at the exact same time:

FotF wants power, wants to rule hell, and so on. While Lucifer is trying to shirk his duty as King of Hell at damn near every opportunity he gets. Mazikeen is practically attached to Lucifer at the hip, but she's NEVER seen alongside First of the Fallen, EVER. Does that not seem strange to you?

Now, I don't know where this scan came from:

No Caption Provided

But you can clearly see that First of the Fallen and Lucifer Morningstar are two separate entries. You can even see a line going off of the FotF paragraph and connecting to some cropped off image on the right.

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SladerAcer

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@andromeda1001:

Well let’s see, The “handbook” you refer to has a pic of a character first introduced in Doctor strange 174 and the retcon came after, which you’ve already posted evidence of and if we compare these versions to Mephisto or even to Dormammu, there’s clearly a difference between them not only in power but also in lore. Thereby Dr.Strange can’t be wrong on Mephisto and him being part of the same entity, because that’s exactly what happened in the sorcer supreme book. So yes, the retcon is evidence of a duplicate.

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cosmic_reign

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Mephisto

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Andromeda1001

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@sladeracer: You're confusing the handbooks in question since I brought up two of them. One of them was published in 1983, while the other was in 2005. I also already proved that Strange was wrong. If you read the entry of the most recent one, it debunks the notion of the existence of a duplicate.

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SladerAcer

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#37  Edited By SladerAcer

@zetsu-san:

a couple things I’d like to clarify for a more solid interpretation of the character you referenced (Lucifer) in your previous post but before I begin I’d like to point out that Marvel’s Sataanish is a complete made up fictional character, first introduced in a Dr.strange comic in ways that contradicts what’s universally accepted in major religious statutes. I honestly don’t think anyone who follows these statutes and reads Dr.Strange 174 would agree with the idea that sataanish is based on Satan and instead would say they are totally different concepts, btw satan is not even a name it’s a title. Biblically speaking, Satan has no brother named mephisto, nor a niece trying to kill him, nor was he part of an entity that split in two and for thousands of years the common consensus hasn’t changed. Which is; Biblical satan used to be an angel, created by G0d, the first to be cast out. Which is the interpretation followed in DC comics -

Alrighty, Now let’s talk about comic Lucifer, I’ll start with this scan I posted earlier since it looks like you still didn’t grasp the message.

No Caption Provided
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What I posted, was a scan of a DC book that follow the universal consensus of the adversary found in Christianity, so let’s break it down.

> TFOTF = a title

> The first cast out, has a name.

> There’s a 2nd and 3rd of The Fallen, who are called Demons and not fallen Angels.

If you look closer at the scans I posted, it’s clear TFOTF is none other than Lucifer. I mean, who else would it be? God’s first creation are these 3 and it can’t be Michael or Gabriel. So, with this information, it becomes impossible for Lucifer to not be TFOTF, which is just one of his many titles but it isn’t a name.

Reading the scan you posted I can see where the confusions on comic Lucifer sprouts from, but it’s nothing major, and shouldn’t be taken as serious evidence of him and TFOTF being separate characters. Because if you look closer the scan that information is being spouted by a mortal, who doesn’t even know the devil’s name…. But I guess this is enough info to convince you Tfotf is someone else but from here it looks like a typical mortal getting things wrong philosophically, I mean, how would she know anything of anything? Better evidence would be actual immortals saying this stuff, then it would be more believable so on that note can you elaborate why Morpheus in my scan calls Lucifer “TfoTf” ? Ive linked a name to this title using information from writers. Also, mazikeen wasn’t always by Lucifer’s side, not sure how this would change N52 Lucifer’s identity but as of now the interpretation of the character seems to correlate with, not only vertigo, but to the fundamentals that inspire it.

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Zetsu-San

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#38  Edited By Zetsu-San

@sladeracer: Bruh. Your own guidebook scan is literally listing them separately… Do you not see the two separate entries with lines linking them to two separate images?

You’re arguing Satannish is two separate characters because of an inconsistency in his backstory.

But Lucifer and FotF, who have completely different personalities, completely different aesthetic, and completely different goals/motivations, are one at the same? One is literally a heroic character and the other is a villain.

There is no confusion. They are separate characters. Both were created to be the biblical devil, yes. But the characters were so vastly different from each other in concept, that they had to be clarified as separate characters. Which they have, both in an in story comic, and in the guide book that YOU posted.

And on the topic of Satannish. Marvel has made MANY characters who are all based on the biblical devil, okay. That’s a fact. Mephisto has been linked to the devil. Satannish been linked to the devil. Marduk Kurios has been linked to the devil. Lucifer, has been linked to the devil. Satannish and Lucifer have been treated as the same character on occasion. Marduk Kurios and Lucifer have been treated as the same character on occasion. Mephisto has been linked to biblical roles even recently, with the serpent of Eden.

Comics write stuff. Okay. DC separated the biblical devil into two separate characters. Marvel likes to avoid there being a true satan, so they create a bajillion different hell lords who all get associated with satan at random moments.

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SladerAcer

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#39  Edited By SladerAcer

@andromeda1001:

both handbooks use Dr.strange 174’s sataanish, If you type his name in google/wiki what pops up is the OPs pic with 174s bio and they fusing (Mephisto/Sataanish) already occurred. Btw this is coming from multiple sources not only Dr.strange, who’s intel came straight from a nigh omniscient named Agamotto, the confusion is all yours.

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my visuals isn’t the issue but rather your comprehension @zetsu-san the lines you describe is primarily focused on the Devil referencing his Fallen state. He used to be an angel but turned into the Devil after he fell or TFOTF and only one name is attached to this title, which is the point of the illustration.

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Zetsu-San

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#40  Edited By Zetsu-San

@sladeracer: The Lucifer entry ALSO talks about him as a fallen angel and king of hell. They are listed as separate characters. The images are completely separate characters, who have both appeared at different times. It’s not one form that’s pre fall and another that’s after, that image is what Lucifer looks like, while the other is what FotF looks like.

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Andromeda1001

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#41  Edited By Andromeda1001

@sladeracer: both handbooks use Dr.strange 174’s sataanish, If you type his name in google/wiki what pops up is the OPs pic with 174s bio and they fusing (Mephisto/Sataanish) already occurred. Btw this is coming from multiple sources not only Dr.strange, who’s intel came straight from a nigh omniscient named Agamotto, the confusion is all yours.

No, they don't. For starters, Satannish's original appearance in Doctor Strange#174 was this one below:

His design doesn't look anything like the one in the OP. And since when Google or the Wiki are official sources? Everything that I listed comes straight from Marvel's official line. And last, it was again, simply retconned that Mephisto and Satannish weren't the same. Every canonical guidebook mentions the events in Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme#7/30 and his alleged creation from Dormammu. Here, I highlighted those parts:

No Caption Provided

And now from another guidebook, which goes even further:

You can see that no duplicate is ever mentioned. Besides, all the events from Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme are still intact, but now addressing Satannish's new origin.

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SladerAcer

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#42  Edited By SladerAcer

@andromeda1001:

His design simply improved overtime what’s key here is who invented the character not who drew it better and so far everything I’ve presented points to Thomas Roy’s version of what is in the OP.

Google/wiki aren’t official Marvel sources, but they can still be used for reference since they get their information directly from marvel. Wiki can be as reliable as any GB. Just so you know, the fusion thing is Roy’s idea, it’s in the article I’ve posted. Are we going to claim the original writer was also wrong? A retcon simply means there’s a duplicate and in your GB it’s clear where the artist got his inspiration from

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@zetsu-san

What. In the Lucifer entry, it says he was Hells first king. Think of how The Devil is portrayed, or better Read spoiler in Post #29, Look who Morpheus is talking to

There’s a 2nd and 3rd of the fallen. (Sotf/Totf) In my scan these are titles, and First of the Fallen (FoTf) is painted at Lucifer, I don’t get how you got this wrong.

TfoTF = First cast out = Hells First King = Innovator of the satanic ruling triumvirate.

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Andromeda1001

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#43  Edited By Andromeda1001

@sladeracer: His design simply improved overtime what’s key here is who invented the character not who drew it better and so far everything I’ve presented points to Thomas Roy’s version of what is in the OP.

Google/wiki aren’t official Marvel sources, but they can still be used for reference since they get their information directly from marvel. Wiki can be as reliable as any GB. Just so you know, the fusion thing is Roy’s idea, it’s in the article I’ve posted. Are we going to claim the original writer was also wrong? A retcon simply means there’s a duplicate and in your GB it’s clear where the artist got his inspiration from

While the design above was originally from Roy Thomas, I think you're still forgetting that the picture itself still in the OP only first appeared in the handbook of 2005.

They can't, no. Wiki's and articles on Google can be edited by a person without qualification. It's no different from picking the articles of characters in CV as evidence. A retcon means the original idea was discarded, not that there's factually a duplicate. We've debated this so far, and you haven't posted a single comic or article saying there's a duplicate, only speculation on your part. So let's do this, either post an official source directly stating the existence of a duplicate, or this debate ends here on my part.

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Zetsu-San

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#44  Edited By Zetsu-San

@sladeracer:

What. In the Lucifer entry, it says he was Hells first king. Think visually of how The Devil is portrayed, or better Read spoiler in Post #29, Look who Morpheus is talking to

And in First of the Fallen's entry, it said he was cast out into what "would become" hell. He wasn't king of hell, because Hell didn't actually exist yet, and the 2nd and 3rd fallen were meant to stalemate him, rather than have any one be "king" of the others. The concept of there being a hell with a "king" didn't happen until Lucifer fell:

No Caption Provided

First of the Fallen literally refers to Lucifer as a separate person in the above scan.

or better Read spoiler in Post #29, Look who Morpheus is talking to

Morpheus is talking to Lucifer and referring to him as The First Among the Fallen as a title. It doesn't change the fact that Lucifer and the original First of the Fallen are completely different characters in every single way shape and form.

Also, that scan is from before the FotF appeared in the Hellblazer run, so FotF didn't actually exist in the meta of DC's mythos at the time, hence the contradiction. It's a simple instance of an outdated scan being outdated.

Technically speaking though, the FotF predates the concept of angels entirely, so in that sense Lucifer really IS the "first fallen angel".

There’s a 2nd and 3rd of the fallen. (Sotf/Totf) In my scan these are titles, and First of the Fallen (FoTf) is painted at Lucifer, I don’t get how you got this wrong.

First of the Fallen literally has a line going to a completely different image than Lucifer's.

Yes, there's a second and third fallen. Which only further serves to separate the characters, because whereas FotF had equals who appeared to him before any other denizens of hell did, Lucifer HAD no such equals. Lucifer was the sole undisputed ruler of hell. He did not form a triumvirate until significantly later:

TfoTF = First cast out = Hells First King = Innovator of the satanic ruling triumvirate.

No. FotF was the first to be cast out, but he was explicitly not king BECAUSE he had a triumvirate, and he predates angels and creation itself.

We have a scan straight from the horse's mouth on the subject.

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WastelandMan

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I'm really struggling to understand where the idea that there's a duplicate Satannish running around is coming from, I've seen their appearances and there's no mention of it, just comes across as head canon.

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Zetsu-San

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I'm really struggling to understand where the idea that there's a duplicate Satannish running around is coming from, I've seen their appearances and there's no mention of it, just comes across as head canon.

I think it's funnier that the guy who is claiming there's a duplicate Satannish, is also the guy who insists FotF and Lucifer are the same character.

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SladerAcer

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#47  Edited By SladerAcer

@andromeda1001:

You’re more than welcome to concede. Currently, wiki is a major contributor of information. It does have requirements and they have to be met to maintain an accurate page, so that millions of people worldwide ( such as myself) can use as reference. That’s the entire point of it…Nothing on wiki’s page is wrong, do you know what you’re saying? You’ve already lost theres no need to make matters worse by attacking a company with defamatory claims. Wiki is not like CV. Anyway, Marvel Articles, comic scans are up I’ve all the evidence needed in Post # 39 Wikipedia is just icing on the cake. At this point Your basically not accepting evidence, saying things like Dr.Strange being wrong when it is the writers own idea. How is the writer wrong lol The retcon came after the 2005 GB, which means there’s a duplicate. I don’t get why you think it doesn’t

Is A 2018 charger R/T the same car a 2022 Model? Yes. Slight change in performance. That doesn’t mean the previous version was discardeed… it’s okay to be wrong.

@wastelandman

I’ve posted Roy’s Sataanish, which is in the Op. Then theres what Andromeda posted, a version not in the OP. So, exactly what don’t you understand

@zetsu-san

I’d hope you had a better argument instead of trying to build your own narrative. The person you think is Tfotf is actually SoTF. Can you Read ? Morpheus debunks you all day. -

zetsu-san:

“ Morpheus is talking to Lucifer and referring to him as first of the fallen as a title” Check.

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cosmic_reign

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👀🍿

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Andromeda1001

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@sladeracer: You're literally just repeating yourself at this point, without giving any concrete evidence aside from non-official sources and guessworking. This is almost as bad as when you tried to use an edited image of Bat-Mite in a debate. Anyways, I'm done here. Believe in what you want to.

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Zetsu-San

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@sladeracer: . . . The scan I posted is literally the First of the Fallen talking TO the 2nd and 3rd Fallen. So how can he be the second of the fallen, when he’s literally speaking to the second of the fallen? How can he be the third of the fallen when YOUR OWN SCAN draws a line connecting the FotF entry to HIS image.