Thanos at his strongest w/o an object is the Avatar of Death. He's unkillable and can bring Permanent Death to beings in a universe where Death didn't exist. And when Death returned to the Cancer-verse, Thanos killed all of its inhabitants in an instant, destroying all those still fighting against those of the Marvel 616-Universe and destabilizing the entire Cancer-verse, putting it on the verge of collapsing in on itself.
Thanos at his strongest w/o an object is the Avatar of Death. He's unkillable and can bring Permanent Death to beings in a universe where Death didn't exist. And when Death returned to the Cancer-verse, Thanos killed all of its inhabitants in an instant, destroying all those still fighting against those of the Marvel 616-Universe and destabilizing the entire Cancer-verse, putting it on the verge of collapsing in on itself. So, Thanos wins.
And Melkor, at his fullest, directly opposed the creator, went against his will. Only version of thanos that even stands a chance here is with HOTU.
Opposing the 'Creator' isn't the same as facing him on equal footing. It's the same story with Lucifer who turned against God. Can't take him, so he went to screw with people instead. And the way I remember it, didn't it take all of the Maiar to create the universe? In which case, Melkor is just one voice in a Chorus. Thanos can end the universe.
And when the Rot was killing Eternity, and would've nullified all of the MU, including Death herself, it was Thanos that ultimately stopped it.
Melkor at his strongest was not even able to 'corrupt' a single planet. He was described "...as a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with smoke and fire; and the light of the eyes of Melkor was like a flame that withers with heat and pierces with a deadly cold."
Opposing the 'Creator' isn't the same as facing him on equal footing. It's the same story with Lucifer who turned against God. Can't take him, so he went to screw with people instead. And the way I remember it, didn't it take all of the Maiar to create the universe? In which case, Melkor is just one voice in a Chorus. Thanos can end the universe. And when the Rot was killing Eternity, and would've nullified all of the MU, including Death herself, it was Thanos that ultimately stopped it.
There is no such a thing as 'opposing a creator on equal footing'. Going against him is pretty much of a insane feat in himself. (Idk about you but I think Lucifer should be able to beat thanos) Notably, he has all the aspects of creator, unlike other ainur, which only have some. Thanos, even with IG was owned by LT. Only incarnation of his that's capable of going against ToAA was the one with HOTU. Nothing else.
Melkor at his strongest was not even able to 'corrupt' a single planet. He was described "...as a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with smoke and fire; and the light of the eyes of Melkor was like a flame that withers with heat and pierces with a deadly cold."
So a easy victory for Thanos.
Well, considering he had about all valar against him, it's not much of a surprise. If your opponents are as strong as you are, there is no way you'll be able to accomplish something. Leave a planet, not even a person.
"Thus spoke Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor and the rumour of his word was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of the Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon." Silmarillion, second prophecy of Mandos, first paragraph.
I don't know crap about Thanos, so I don't have enough information to make an informed decision on who would win, but if that sounds like small potatoes to Thanos then he's got this.
Thanos is an outside context problem for the LOTR universe as a whole. He can shrug off planet destroying blasts with ease and has outsmarted pretty much everything there is to be outsmarted in marvel. He should make Melkor his bitch in short order.
Considering melkor is someone who has once opposed ToAA, that sounds unlikely.
Considering the difference in the scale of their feats (Wounded by an Elf vs fighting Tyrant and holding his own) I'd say that Thanos would wreck Morgoth and at the very worst tie Melkor.
Considering melkor is someone who has once opposed ToAA, that sounds unlikely.
Considering the difference in the scale of their feats (Wounded by an Elf vs fighting Tyrant and holding his own) I'd say that Thanos would wreck Morgoth and at the very worst tie Melkor.
The difference is, here we're using the most powerful form. Not the physical one.
Considering melkor is someone who has once opposed ToAA, that sounds unlikely.
Considering the difference in the scale of their feats (Wounded by an Elf vs fighting Tyrant and holding his own) I'd say that Thanos would wreck Morgoth and at the very worst tie Melkor.
The difference is, here we're using the most powerful form. Not the physical one.
Thanos has managed to hold his own against Odin and Tyrant before his Thanos Imperative upgrade; where he got a healing factor that would make Hulk feel envious among other copious power upgrades. Given that before we reached a consensus that Dormammu; an Odin level entity, would be able to make Melkor taste the pavement, I'd say Thanos gives Melkor a very personal rendition of the curbstomp song.
Quite frankly, Melkor hasn't done jack. It took all the Maiar (Melkor included) to fill the universe with junk. Valar are below the Maiar. If Melkor has to wait for everyone else to weaken just to "Destroy the Sun and the Moon" then he's rather pitiful. Gladiator can crush stars between his arms, Surfer can ignite supernovas and open black holes in peoples eye sockets, and both of them get humiliated by Thanos.
And now, this is Avatar of Death Thanos, whom could kill everything in the Tolkien-verse, then look at the Creator and flip him off.
Quite frankly, Melkor hasn't done jack. It took all the Maiar (Melkor included) to fill the universe with junk. Valar are below the Maiar. If Melkor has to wait for everyone else to weaken just to "Destroy the Sun and the Moon" then he's rather pitiful. Gladiator can crush stars between his arms, Surfer can ignite supernovas and open black holes in peoples eye sockets, and both of them get humiliated by Thanos. And now, this is Avatar of Death Thanos, whom could kill everything in the Tolkien-verse, then look at the Creator and flip him off.
You got the Maiar and Valar mixed up. Aule, Manwe and Melkor, they're Valar. Gandalf, Saruman and the Balrogs, they're Maiar.
Also, while I don't disagree with you that Thanos would stomp, Melkor didn't wait for everyone else to weaken. You see, Melkor used to be really powerful, but then he assumed a physical form and wasn't able to go back to his previous form. It was at this point that Melkor became extremely good at lying. According to Tolkien, he became so proficient at it he was able to deceive himself into becoming an atheist by telling himself that there is no such thing as a soul or anything non-physical. This is when Melkor was at his weakest, and it allowed the Valar to defeat and capture him. In Dagor Dagorath, (The Battle of Battles) which the second prophecy of Mandos refers to, Melkor regained his original strength, which let him shatter the barrier keeping him in his dimensional prison. Then he blew up the sun and moon.
I always get to two terms mixed up. Not exactly a Tolkien expert here. Still, what Melkor did is something dozens of figures in Marvel could do, many of whom Thanos can bitchslap. And you don't get much trickier or deceptive than Thanos who's outwitted Mephisto and got Galactus to let Thanos in his head.
Quite frankly, Melkor hasn't done jack. It took all the Maiar (Melkor included) to fill the universe with junk. Valar are below the Maiar. If Melkor has to wait for everyone else to weaken just to "Destroy the Sun and the Moon" then he's rather pitiful. Gladiator can crush stars between his arms, Surfer can ignite supernovas and open black holes in peoples eye sockets, and both of them get humiliated by Thanos. And now, this is Avatar of Death Thanos, whom could kill everything in the Tolkien-verse, then look at the Creator and flip him off.
The difference is, here we're using the most powerful form. Not the physical one.
Thanos has managed to hold his own against Odin and Tyrant before his Thanos Imperative upgrade; where he got a healing factor that would make Hulk feel envious among other copious power upgrades. Given that before we reached a consensus that Dormammu; an Odin level entity, would be able to make Melkor taste the pavement, I'd say Thanos gives Melkor a very personal rendition of the curbstomp song.
So how does holding his own make him stomp someone who went against ToAA's wishes? last time I checked, marvel odin wasn't that high up the ladder.. It's like saying holding your own against invincible making you stomp superman.
@reikai said:
Quite frankly, Melkor hasn't done jack. It took all the Maiar (Melkor included) to fill the universe with junk. Valar are below the Maiar. If Melkor has to wait for everyone else to weaken just to "Destroy the Sun and the Moon" then he's rather pitiful. Gladiator can crush stars between his arms, Surfer can ignite supernovas and open black holes in peoples eye sockets, and both of them get humiliated by Thanos. And now, this is Avatar of Death Thanos, whom could kill everything in the Tolkien-verse, then look at the Creator and flip him off.
I had no idea melkor is considered one of the maiar. Kidding. Get real, he is the most powerful valar.
The reason he had to wait was because together, the valar stood a good chance against him. You won't be able to destroy a glass article if someone stronger than you is guarding it. No matter what you are capable of , destroying stars or galaxies. You have to wait for the guardians to weaken enough to beat them.
'Flipping creator off'? wow. trolling? only time thanos even Got close to a creator is with HOTU. He got himself humiliated by LT even when he had IG, and LT is still just enforcer of creator. Here he doesn't even have IG.
Thanos at his strongest w/o an object is the Avatar of Death. He's unkillable and can bring Permanent Death to beings in a universe where Death didn't exist. And when Death returned to the Cancer-verse, Thanos killed all of its inhabitants in an instant, destroying all those still fighting against those of the Marvel 616-Universe and destabilizing the entire Cancer-verse, putting it on the verge of collapsing in on itself. So, Thanos wins.
That destruction has absolutely nothing to do with Thanos.
The universe had cheated death, and it was her power that destroyed them all.
Thanos has been avatar of death from his very first story arc, The Final Threat, and has been clearly referred to as such in his second story arc God Itself.
The idea that Thanos destroyed Galactus engine, that Galactus and Celestial failed to put a scratch on is lubricious, and baseless.
The difference is, here we're using the most powerful form. Not the physical one.
Thanos has managed to hold his own against Odin and Tyrant before his Thanos Imperative upgrade; where he got a healing factor that would make Hulk feel envious among other copious power upgrades. Given that before we reached a consensus that Dormammu; an Odin level entity, would be able to make Melkor taste the pavement, I'd say Thanos gives Melkor a very personal rendition of the curbstomp song.
So how does holding his own make him stomp someone who went against ToAA's wishes? last time I checked, marvel odin wasn't that high up the ladder.. It's like saying holding your own against invincible making you stomp superman.
@reikai said:
Quite frankly, Melkor hasn't done jack. It took all the Maiar (Melkor included) to fill the universe with junk. Valar are below the Maiar. If Melkor has to wait for everyone else to weaken just to "Destroy the Sun and the Moon" then he's rather pitiful. Gladiator can crush stars between his arms, Surfer can ignite supernovas and open black holes in peoples eye sockets, and both of them get humiliated by Thanos. And now, this is Avatar of Death Thanos, whom could kill everything in the Tolkien-verse, then look at the Creator and flip him off.
I had no idea melkor is considered one of the maiar. Kidding. Get real, he is the most powerful valar.
The reason he had to wait was because together, the valar stood a good chance against him. You won't be able to destroy a glass article if someone stronger than you is guarding it. No matter what you are capable of , destroying stars or galaxies. You have to wait for the guardians to weaken enough to beat them.
'Flipping creator off'? wow. trolling? only time thanos even Got close to a creator is with HOTU. He got himself humiliated by LT even when he had IG, and LT is still just enforcer of creator. Here he doesn't even have IG.
It's not really accurate to say that Melkor went against the creator's wishes. Everything that happens in the universe is the will of Eru Iluvatar, including Melkor rebelling against him. It was all according to his grand design.
It's not really accurate to say that Melkor went against the creator's wishes. Everything that happens in the universe is the will of Eru Iluvatar, including Melkor rebelling against him. It was all according to his grand design.
Ah, the classic debate. Yes, technically, he didn't, but on the other hand, the creator gave him enough power to corrupt his corruptions/ rebelling against him.
So eru gave enough power to melkor so that he would rebel against his wishes because he wished someone to rebel against his wishes :D (Paradox)
It's kind of similar to one of the celestials, what was his name, growing his own will. Yet it was done because the writer/creator wished it XD
@PrinceAragorn1: Not sure you have notice but most of the feat pointed towards your direction like Thanos destroying cancerverse was not his feat but Lady Death's. Here the scan interpret as you will:
Thanos Imperative 06
Gallery
Not sure how thats supposed to be Thanos power when he is strapped on the rock, grabbed by some tentacles, and the energy cearly comes out of Lady Death's touch.
No idea how Melkor is, this is the first time i am hearing about it, so cant comment, but few comments from one particular person about Thanos is just ridiculous.
@PrinceAragorn1: Not sure you have notice but most of the feat pointed towards your direction like Thanos destroying cancerverse was not his feat but Lady Death's. Here the scan interpret as you will:
Thanos Imperative 06
Gallery
Not sure how thats supposed to be Thanos power when he is strapped on the rock, grabbed by some tentacles, and the energy cearly comes out of Lady Death's touch.
No idea how Melkor is, this is the first time i am hearing about it, so cant comment, but few comments from one particular person about Thanos is just ridiculous.
@PrinceAragorn1: You are probably thinking about Tiamut, the Dreaming Celestial who grew his own will in his meeting with Fulcrum, just though that might help.
Melkor's power comes mostly from statements, his best statements say he can destroy the sun, which disregards the fact that the LOTR sun seems to be meant to be a sentient ball of fire maybe a few miles across (rather like common mythological depictions of the sun) rather than a colossal orb of seething plasma, and smash a planet with his hammer. At his Nadir he was hurt by an elf stabbing him in the foot. At his peak he has done some geography rearranging feats (smashing two implausibly large towers that dwarf modern mountains) and muddled up the creation song of the LOTR setting. Unfortunately I just don't think that Melkor's actual feats scale all that well with Thanos'.
@PrinceAragorn1: You are probably thinking about Tiamut, the Dreaming Celestial who grew his own will in his meeting with Fulcrum, just though that might help.
Yeah, thanks for both the scans and the name :)
Anyway, I was sure whatever he pulls off doesn't put him above even LT without the HOTU. Going against the creator without it is retarded.
Eru relies heavily on "Omniscient morality liscense." He knows Melkor would fail hard from the start, so he never actually bothers to take any direct action. Unless I missed some part of the Silmarillion where Melkor and Eru directly fought (I wouldn't put that beyond me, the Silmarillion is a less interesting read than most phonebooks), I don't think what you're saying amounts to much.
Eru relies heavily on "Omniscient morality liscense." He knows Melkor would fail hard from the start, so he never actually bothers to take any direct action. Unless I missed some part of the Silmarillion where Melkor and Eru directly fought (I wouldn't put that beyond me, the Silmarillion is a less interesting read than most phonebooks), I don't think what you're saying amounts to much.
Hmm. I do get your point. Considering eru didn't take any physical form in ME, it's correct that they never had a 'fight'. But that doesn't change the fact that Melkor corrupted eru's themes against his wishes (and got admonished for doing that. If it was eru's will, he wouldn't have punished him, or maybe it was eru's will to have melkor go against his own will to punish him?) but however you play it, it still remains that he has gone against creator's wishes and still survived.. If it was LT, or someone similar, it would be the old debate, who's stronger, the one who disobeys or one who obeys. But thanos, I'm sure, is nowhere on that level in hierarchy.
Again, given the Omniscient morality liscense, everything Melkor did happened because ultimately; Eru wanted it to happen. If you argue that a finite entity like Morgoth can break the wishes of Eru, that makes Eru not omnipotent because his will can be defied by a finite entity. And ultimately; Melkor has never had the feats to put him much above Thor's punching level at his A-game. At his nadir; Iron man could reasonably be expected to hand him his armor-plated giant rear end on a silver platter.
@Lord_Johnathan: Oh those feat that can match, and has better feats. I am a little unsure to whether Thanos could actually destroy the sun but he has made the whole universe scream with a giant blast and rather handily beaten a guy who ripped the core of the star.
@PrinceAragorn1: No problem, btw when you said went against the creator, did he actually fight the creator? Is the creator supposed to be like TOAA? Coz if he can find or is even comparable to TOAA of any verse should put him much above Thanos, but if he just rebelled that seemed like an insufficient proof. Mephisto rebelled against his creator, the infinity being (not TOAA, but dude whose power became IG), Chthon did the same apparently (never shown on panel just remotely hinted).
It was Death's return to the Cancer-verse that allowed Thanos to destroy it. When Death killed Mar-Vell, Thanos' power as her Avatar rose to its highest automatically because Death Existed again. When he first entered the Cancer-verse, Thanos was grievously weakened because there was an over-abundance of Life and no Death.
It should be noted that Thanos could've easily killed Mar-Vell himself. However, that alone wouldn't have returned Death to the Cancer-verse. Thanos had to re-enact the ritual that eliminated Death in the first place. It was Mar-Vell's folly that he performed it in the Cancer-verse where Death was already gone, and by bringing the Avatar of Death to the point of Death in a universe where she did not exist, opened the way for her return and thus Death was once more apart of the Cancer-verse.
Death killed Mar-Vell, and it was from that that Thanos killed everything else connected to the Cancer-verse. And it was, in fact, for that reason that Death was rejecting him. Death had only ever desired a balance between Life and Death. When there is no Life, Death has no meaning. It was the reason why he restored the MU with the HotU. Why he didn't recall this in "Imperative" may be because of his resurrection and the fact he never desired to return to life. Which was why he went mind-flarkingly insane the instant he awoke and unleashed such Rage that the Hulk wouldn't be able to match it.
And btw, I said he'd flip off the Creator, not challenge him to battle. Like when Thanos tore into the Realm of All Gods, talked smack to Eternity and told off Death.
And at the end of time when Morgoth is prophecized to regain his power and all his hordes; he will end up being killed by the very much mortal descendant of someone whose family he cursed literally forever ago. Not physically destroyed, as in his very essence is snuffed from reality killed so that everything can be started anew.
Well, after all, a character is as strong as the creator wishes him to be. Even if eru wanted it to happen, it means he put the character in the top league, right? Thanos with HOTU for example, became pseudo TOAA because the creators wished him so. But that doesn't take thanos with hotu down from his pseudo toaa level..
@Lord_Johnathan: Oh those feat that can match, and has better feats. I am a little unsure to whether Thanos could actually destroy the sun but he has made the whole universe scream with a giant blast and rather handily beaten a guy who ripped the core of the star.
@PrinceAragorn1: No problem, btw when you said went against the creator, did he actually fight the creator? Is the creator supposed to be like TOAA? Coz if he can find or is even comparable to TOAA of any verse should put him much above Thanos, but if he just rebelled that seemed like an insufficient proof. Mephisto rebelled against his creator, the infinity being (not TOAA, but dude whose power became IG), Chthon did the same apparently (never shown on panel just remotely hinted).
According to Tolkien, Eru Iluvatar is the literal Christian god, and Melkor/Morgoth is Lucifer/Satan. Tolkien was a devout Christian and LOTRs is heavily inspired by his faith. No, Eru never takes physical form and him and Melkor do not fight, and I can guarantee that he intended for Melkor to rebel against him. In fact, after Melkor falls completely, he stops believing in the existence of Eru altogether. The following is a quote from Dagor Dagorath, Tolkien's unreleased ending for the Silmarillion.
"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."
@Lord_Johnathan: Oh those feat that can match, and has better feats. I am a little unsure to whether Thanos could actually destroy the sun but he has made the whole universe scream with a giant blast and rather handily beaten a guy who ripped the core of the star.
@PrinceAragorn1: No problem, btw when you said went against the creator, did he actually fight the creator? Is the creator supposed to be like TOAA? Coz if he can find or is even comparable to TOAA of any verse should put him much above Thanos, but if he just rebelled that seemed like an insufficient proof. Mephisto rebelled against his creator, the infinity being (not TOAA, but dude whose power became IG), Chthon did the same apparently (never shown on panel just remotely hinted).
Yes, Eru of Illuvatar is the equivalent of the Hebraic God in LTOR universe, so this make Melkor a Mega version of Satan in LTOR. In Similarion, it was stated that melkor was pwowerful enough to wipe entire galaxy's, and the universe in LTOR is just like any other, but more magical lol.
@Lord_Johnathan: Oh those feat that can match, and has better feats. I am a little unsure to whether Thanos could actually destroy the sun but he has made the whole universe scream with a giant blast and rather handily beaten a guy who ripped the core of the star.
@PrinceAragorn1: No problem, btw when you said went against the creator, did he actually fight the creator? Is the creator supposed to be like TOAA? Coz if he can find or is even comparable to TOAA of any verse should put him much above Thanos, but if he just rebelled that seemed like an insufficient proof. Mephisto rebelled against his creator, the infinity being (not TOAA, but dude whose power became IG), Chthon did the same apparently (never shown on panel just remotely hinted).
According to Tolkien, Eru Iluvatar is the literal Christian god, and Melkor/Morgoth is Lucifer/Satan. Tolkien was a devote Christian and LOTRs is heavily inspired by his faith. No, Eru never takes physical form, and I can guarantee that he intended for Melkor to rebel against him. The following is a quote from Dagor Dagorath, Tolkien's unreleased ending for the Silmarillion.
"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."
That pretty much covers it. Thanks again, Laurcus. :)
Morgoth essentially was like the eldest child of a family throwing a hissy fit at his super-powered dad for not giving him the latest toy. The fact that he threw a hissy fit doesn't make a damn difference because his dad would hand him his ass in a second. To further this analogy, Thanos would be like a car slamming into said kid.
@Lord_Johnathan: Oh those feat that can match, and has better feats. I am a little unsure to whether Thanos could actually destroy the sun but he has made the whole universe scream with a giant blast and rather handily beaten a guy who ripped the core of the star.
@PrinceAragorn1: No problem, btw when you said went against the creator, did he actually fight the creator? Is the creator supposed to be like TOAA? Coz if he can find or is even comparable to TOAA of any verse should put him much above Thanos, but if he just rebelled that seemed like an insufficient proof. Mephisto rebelled against his creator, the infinity being (not TOAA, but dude whose power became IG), Chthon did the same apparently (never shown on panel just remotely hinted).
Yes, Eru of Illuvatar is the equivalent of the Hebraic God in LTOR universe, so this make Melkor a Mega version of Satan in LTOR. In Similarion, it was stated that melkor was pwowerful enough to wipe entire galaxy's, and the universe in LTOR is just like any other, but more magical lol.
Utter B.S. Point me to the exact quote and page where it is explicitly said that Melkor could destroy a galaxy.
Morgoth essentially was like the eldest child of a family throwing a hissy fit at his super-powered dad for not giving him the latest toy. The fact that he threw a hissy fit doesn't make a damn difference because his dad would hand him his ass in a second. To further this analogy, Thanos would be like a car slamming into said kid.
The only thing going wrong here is, Thanos isn't even an eldest child of the family.. the place belongs to LT, or someone like PR beyonder.
(And son of a super power dad should be able to handle a car XD)
@Lord_Johnathan: Oh those feat that can match, and has better feats. I am a little unsure to whether Thanos could actually destroy the sun but he has made the whole universe scream with a giant blast and rather handily beaten a guy who ripped the core of the star.
@PrinceAragorn1: No problem, btw when you said went against the creator, did he actually fight the creator? Is the creator supposed to be like TOAA? Coz if he can find or is even comparable to TOAA of any verse should put him much above Thanos, but if he just rebelled that seemed like an insufficient proof. Mephisto rebelled against his creator, the infinity being (not TOAA, but dude whose power became IG), Chthon did the same apparently (never shown on panel just remotely hinted).
Yes, Eru of Illuvatar is the equivalent of the Hebraic God in LTOR universe, so this make Melkor a Mega version of Satan in LTOR. In Similarion, it was stated that melkor was pwowerful enough to wipe entire galaxy's, and the universe in LTOR is just like any other, but more magical lol.
Utter B.S. Point me to the exact quote and page where it is explicitly said that Melkor could destroy a galaxy.
I'm very curious to see this as well. The best feat I can recall for Melkor is the statement that he destroys the sun and moon in the second prophecy of Mandos. Never heard of him being able to destroy a galaxy.
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