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Posted by Inside (904 posts) 1 month, 2 hours ago

Poll: Melkor vs Dovahkiin (38 votes)

Melkor 61%
Dovahkiin 39%

Melkor:

No Caption Provided

Dovahkiin:

No Caption Provided

WHO WINS?

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#1 Edited by dark_globe (682 posts) - - Show Bio

melkor is second to god in his universe (he is basically satan) .

dovahkiin is not even one of many daedric gods in his .

melkor wins .

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#3 Posted by The_Magister (14407 posts) - - Show Bio

Melkor.

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#4 Posted by Kidolio (1152 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark_globe: Second to god can mean a lot of things, what’s his feats?

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#5 Posted by incursion2 (2242 posts) - - Show Bio

Melkor I guess

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#6 Posted by Inside (904 posts) - - Show Bio

@kidolio: blew up the sun and moon, stalemated all of the Valar (beings who, along with himself, helped create the universe as a whole).

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#7 Posted by Ghetsiscmcvne (1022 posts) - - Show Bio

Melkor

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#9 Posted by Kidolio (1152 posts) - - Show Bio

@inside: I’m pretty sure the sun was a fruit and the moon was a flower in the Lotr verse, so I can’t quantify that. The creation of the universe was also a joint effort of the valar and maiar, so we don’t know who did how much between everyone, so again not very quantifiable.

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#11 Edited by Trololololol (733 posts) - - Show Bio

Melkor wins. Dovahkiin was taken down by Karliah ......

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#12 Posted by Inside (904 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Edited by Bearderby (475 posts) - - Show Bio

Morgoth>>Sauron>Dovahkiin

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#14 Posted by Kidolio (1152 posts) - - Show Bio

@bearderby: Sauron>Dovahkin? Really? Sauron doesn’t really have any impressive combat feats. Melkor doesn’t really seem to have any either but I’m at least willing to give him a benefit of the doubt.

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#16 Posted by kgb725 (19537 posts) - - Show Bio

@trololololol: @inside: Surprise attacks. He has the power to phase and slow time itself he just wasnt prepared

Online
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#17 Posted by GodxDarkxOpal (527 posts) - - Show Bio

Sauron can be hurt. But depends which one. 1st Age? 2nd? 3rd??

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#19 Posted by Aristeaus (1220 posts) - - Show Bio

@kidolio said:

@dark_globe: Second to god can mean a lot of things, what’s his feats?

Literally second in power to a omnipotent god.

The entire Valar could not stop him in the first war. Morgoth single handidly drove the Valar from middle-earth.

The Valar easily have country level feats. Morgoth accidentally created clouds once. lol

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#20 Posted by GateOfBabylon (4557 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Edited by dark_globe (682 posts) - - Show Bio

@Aristeaus said:
@kidolio said:

@dark_globe: Second to god can mean a lot of things, what’s his feats?

Literally second in power to a omnipotent god.

The entire Valar could not stop him in the first war. Morgoth single handidly drove the Valar from middle-earth.

The Valar easily have country level feats. Morgoth accidentally created clouds once. lol

yeah basically :

melkor >>> daedric god = valar >>> dovahkiin

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#22 Posted by UltraShaggy (1187 posts) - - Show Bio

Melkor >>>> Valar > Daedric god >> Sauron >>> Dovahkiin. melkor stomp .

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#23 Posted by MCU-Defender333 (157 posts) - - Show Bio

Melkor is on a whole other tier of being, he stomps this.

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#24 Posted by i_like_swords (26244 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not sold Melkor wins as clearly as you are all putting it, but I'm open to being convinced.

@kidolio said:

@dark_globe: Second to god can mean a lot of things, what’s his feats?

Literally second in power to a omnipotent god.

The entire Valar could not stop him in the first war. Morgoth single handidly drove the Valar from middle-earth.

The Valar easily have country level feats. Morgoth accidentally created clouds once. lol

Country level is below people weaker than the Dovahkiin...

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#25 Posted by RuthlessKiller (1000 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Melkor helped create the universe by singing, he disrupted the creation of the earth, Which included destroying valleys and mountains

Melkor destroyed the Two Lamps that were "more lofty far than are any mountains of the later days"

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#26 Posted by i_like_swords (26244 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords: Melkor helped create the universe by singing, he disrupted the creation of the earth, Which included destroying valleys and mountains

Melkor destroyed the Two Lamps that were "more lofty far than are any mountains of the later days"

I'd need to read the passages again to get a gauge of how impressive that all is, due to the fact some of these feats take place over an undetermined amount of time and are split between numerous Valar.

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#27 Posted by gabrielbelmont (983 posts) - - Show Bio

melkor:

Attack Potency: Universe level+(Significantly stronger than all 14 other Valar combined, he is the second strongest being in all of existence. Created multiple concepts, including discord, with his thoughts, and was able to singlehandedly change the Theme that brought the universe into being, as well as permanently damage and affect the other Themes which Eru Ilúvatar had shaped)

speed: Immeasurable (Existed in the Timeless Halls, a place that transcended linear time and is best likened to a higher temporal dimension)

durability: universe level+ (Existed beyond the basic universe, and endured the perversion of two of Eru Ilúvatar's Themes)

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#28 Edited by decaf_wizard (17064 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords said:

I'm not sold Melkor wins as clearly as you are all putting it, but I'm open to being convinced.

@Aristeaus said:
@kidolio said:

@dark_globe: Second to god can mean a lot of things, what’s his feats?

Literally second in power to a omnipotent god.

The entire Valar could not stop him in the first war. Morgoth single handidly drove the Valar from middle-earth.

The Valar easily have country level feats. Morgoth accidentally created clouds once. lol

Country level is below people weaker than the Dovahkiin...

Just to put a gauge on Melkor, in his prime, was the second greatest being in the LotR universe. He was to a stupidly vast degree above every other Valar, who were individually probably about low-mid end continent level by feats and there were about fourteen of them. In addition, Melkor was stated to have a share in the gifts/powers of all of the lesser ainur, and given the power disparity between the two groups, its likely all their feats are to a degree applicable to him because of this. At the creation of the world, he was the force of chaos to the order of the Valar and would routinely smash down down continents and drain oceans and stuff for the mere reason that the other Valar liked them there.

Is often thought that Tulkas arrived and the Valar were able to beat him because of his enormous physical strength. This is not really true, because Tulkas is not even considered among the Powers of Arda (the ruling Valar) and was stated by Tolkien to be only marginally better than Orome in strength, who Melkor had been pimpslapping for eons at this point, and not only that but Melkor had been diminished already at that point.

Melkor, even after his first major diminishment, was able to casually raise entire mountain ranges, nevermind in his prime. Even after his second, he could use his magics to annihilate entire regions with firestorms

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#29 Posted by i_like_swords (26244 posts) - - Show Bio

@decaf_wizard: Yeah he was essentially locked in a stalemate with the collective Ainur, although their skirmishes were seldom as simple as a battle thread scenario. He also feared Ulmo (for obvious reasons).

I'd really need to go through the Silmarillion again to get a firm handle on all their feats.

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#30 Posted by Aristeaus (1220 posts) - - Show Bio

Country level is below people weaker than the Dovahkiin...

By some terrible logic video game scaling. Not a single feat he has is that level.

His best actual feats are some shouts that created a large storm or "shook the world", with no actual consequence. Unless you are fighting babies, I suppose.

The only reason Dovakhiin is scaled so highly is because of ridiculous wanking of Alduin.

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#31 Posted by reikai (7485 posts) - - Show Bio

Alduin is the World-Eater, who devours Life and Time. Who consumes the very world itself in its final hours so that a new one can be born. The Dragonborn defeats him in single battle and forces Alduin to retreat to Sovngarde to restore his strength, only to be ultimately defeated there and cast out. Alduin blanketed a whole realm in his Soul Snare, a land infinite. Yet his power was no match for the Dragonborn.

The Dragonborn was set to become the reincarnation of Lorkhan, aka the Nordic God of the Afterlife, Shor. The one whom 'tricked' the Aedra into creating the Mortal Plane and stripped them of their immortality. In this way, the Dragonborn would be just as powerful as any Daedric Prince. Even the strongest of them. After all, the Princes needed to gather together to defeat Jyggalag. Similarly, the Aedra joined together to kill Lorkhan.

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#32 Edited by dark_globe (682 posts) - - Show Bio

@reikai:

this is all good but in the game the dragonborn is just a pawn of daedric gods
and he is completing their quests and accept trinkets as gifts from them .
there is no single instance in game mechanics when he actually challenge some of them .

and one is simply not serving them if he is more powerful or if he could easily overthrow those old gods .

the best he can hope for in this match up is to replicate fingolfins feat of inflicting minor wound before going down against wastly diminished version of melkor .
prime melkor curbstomps .

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#33 Posted by i_like_swords (26244 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords said:

Country level is below people weaker than the Dovahkiin...

By some terrible logic video game scaling. Not a single feat he has is that level.

His best actual feats are some shouts that created a large storm or "shook the world", with no actual consequence. Unless you are fighting babies, I suppose.

The only reason Dovakhiin is scaled so highly is because of ridiculous wanking of Alduin.

No, not quite.

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#34 Posted by reikai (7485 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark_globe: TLD isn't exactly serving them. Yes the things he does does indeed help the Princes, but that's not the same as serving them. Besides, TLD isn't meant to be stronger than them during the game. Kinda like how the Champion of Cyrodil doesn't become Sheogorath until the very end.

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#35 Posted by dark_globe (682 posts) - - Show Bio

@reikai:
my point stands , the dragonborn never challenge them for power ,
not even after he defeats alduin .

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#36 Edited by Brittonic_para (303 posts) - - Show Bio

Depends. Melkor on Arda was significantly weaker then he was as a God. The more he corrupted, the more power he seperated into the world, turning him into more of a powerful warlock as opposed to a God. When part of the Valar he stomps this. He probably wins either way, just how much he wins changes.

Just in case anyone is wondering, morgoth destroying the sun and moon is from the passage: "Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon...". This was an early draft for the silmarillion, "dagor dagorath".

He has yet to do it, but considering how the prophecies in fiction work, it is pretty safe to say it is well within the realm of possibility. If you take tolkiens side notes seriously, as to my knowlage this never made it into the final draft.

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#37 Posted by reikai (7485 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark_globe: Your point is moot. TLD has no reason to challenge them. They can't do anything to him and several of them are on his side.

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#38 Edited by dark_globe (682 posts) - - Show Bio

@reikai:

yours is as well .
fact is he never once defeats any of them .
he is just completing their tasks , so there is nothing to suggest he can challenge them .
saying so is just speculation and nothing more .
whereas prime melkor on the other hand in fact singlehandedly defeated all the other gods in his universe at once exept of course ilúvatar .

btw i would love to play the DLC in which dragonborn is on a mission to beat evil daedric gods , but sadly we never got it .

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#39 Posted by Kidolio (1152 posts) - - Show Bio

@Aristeaus: if there was an omnipotent god in our world then the strongest and smartest human would be considered second to god, you don’t scale second to god from god you scale him up to the person who displayed the best feats if he doesn’t have his own.

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#41 Edited by Kidolio (1152 posts) - - Show Bio

@brittonic_para: Kinda got some already, but yeah go ahead. I was just making a point.

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#42 Posted by gabrielbelmont (983 posts) - - Show Bio

melkor

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#43 Posted by reikai (7485 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark_globe: And what you said is completely meaningless. Part of the game is completing tasks. Beating Alduin is just completing the main task of the game and nothing more. So everything you've said has been utterly pointless.

By that same logic, Melkor has never defeated the god of his world nor actually won against the other Maiar/Valar, just fended them off. In that same token TLD has killed numerous dragons, which're all considered lesser gods, as well as countless dremora. In that sense he's accomplished a hell of a lot more than Melkor ever did. Especially since TLD's opponents are permanently dead afterwords.

Melkor fighting off a bunch of, effectively, nobodies has little to no meaning when all the Princes and Aedra are multiversal and still lower on the tiering list than Sithis, who is then below the likes of Anu, Aurbis and Padomay.

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#44 Edited by decaf_wizard (17064 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords said:

@decaf_wizard: Yeah he was essentially locked in a stalemate with the collective Ainur, although their skirmishes were seldom as simple as a battle thread scenario. He also feared Ulmo (for obvious reasons).

I'd really need to go through the Silmarillion again to get a firm handle on all their feats.

It wasn't a stalemate, they flat out could not beat him at all, it was more that he couldn't undo their works faster than they could make them so that aspect was a stalemate. Even after Tulkas arrived, they didn't think they would win until they realized he had been diminished

Well I mean, Melkor was deep down a coward, although a very powerful one. Ulmo he feared because he was one of the only things to turn from him. He feared an "insignificant" elf, even though he was stupidly more powerful than him, on the off chance that the elf MIGHT defeat him.

Melkor feared death, simply because he did not know what would happen. None of the Valar had ever been killed before, and even the Valar were afraid of one of their number dying, even Melkor, because they flat out didn't know what would happen, fearing it would lead to terrible consequences. Melkor had put so much of himself into Arda that we could see something like what happened with when Sauron was (mostly) killed

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#45 Posted by Brittonic_para (303 posts) - - Show Bio

Just because there is alot of "melkor is second to god so he wins lol" in this thread, which is a pretty unconvincing argument, i am going to give some of melkors feats.

First off, the "second to god" comes from this line in the silmarillion: "Melkor must be made far more powerful in original nature [...] The greatest power under Eru." (Morgoth's Ring).

Now, usually each Valar has dominion over one attribute or aspect of reality, but what made melkor so powerful was that he had a share of them all: "To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren." (Ainulindalë, the Silmarillion).

So already, much of the other feats from the Valar should be able to use scaling for Melkor, as he posses those powers aswell, and has shown to in general be much more powerful then the others.

Melkor has such immense physical strength, as when the world was shaped, melkor leveled mountains and valleys, and allegedly changed the shape of the world. “the Valar endeavoured ever, in despite of Melkor, to rule the Earth and to prepare it for the coming of the Firstborn; and they built lands, and Melkor destroyed them; valleys they delved and Melkor raised them up; mountains they carved and Melkor threw them down; seas they hallowed and Melkor spilled them; and naught might come to peace or lasting growth, for as surely as the Valar began a labour so would Melkor undo it or corrupt it." (Valaquenta, the Silmarillion). "the Quendi knew nothing of the great Battle of the Powers, save that the Earth shook and groaned beneath them, and the waters were moved, and in the north there were lights as of mighty fires. Long and grievous was the siege of Utumno, and many battles were fought before its gates of which naught but the rumour is known to the Elves. In that time the shape of Middle-earth was changed, and the Great Sea that sundered it from Aman grew wide and deep; 1 and it broke in upon the coasts and made a deep gulf to the southward." (The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Ch 3, Of The Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor)

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(I do not take credit for this comic)

Along with this, he destroyed the 2 lamps, said to be loftier then mountains: "But Melkor... assailed the lights of Illuin and Ormal, and cast down their pillars and broke their lamps. In the overthrow of the mighty pillars lands were broken and seas arose in tumult; and when the lamps were spilled destroying flame was poured out over the Earth. And the shape of Arda and the symmetry of its waters and its lands was marred in that time, so that the first designs of the Valar were never after restored." (The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Ch 1, Of The Beginning of Days)

His durbility was at his peak great enough to shield him from an all out attack from the other valar, who some (tulkus in particular) should be physically superior to melkor as per melkors reactions to him: "So that they come at last to Utumno itself and find that 'the Morgoth' has no longer for the moment sufficient 'force' (in any sense) to shield himself from direct personal contact. Manwë at last faces Melkor again, as he has not done since he entered Arda. Both are amazed: Manwë to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he has now less personal force than Manwë, and can no longer daunt him with his gaze." (Morgoth’s Ring).

Ulmo for example, had power so great he could uproot an island, and use it as a massive ship: Therefore Ulmo uprooted an island which long had stood alone amid the sea, far from either shore, since the tumults of the fall of Illuin; and with the aid of his servants he moved it, as it were a mighty ship, and anchored it in the Bay of Balar, into which Sirion poured his water. Then the Vanyar and the Noldor embarked upon that isle, and were drawn over the sea, and came at last to the long shores beneath the Mountains of Aman; and they entered Valinor and were welcomed to its bliss." (The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Ch 5, Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië)

And orome shook the earth whole riding to confront melkor: "And Oromë tamer of beasts would ride too at whiles in the darkness of the unlit forests; as a mighty hunter he came with spear and bow, pursuing to the death the monsters and fell creatures of the kingdom of Melkor, and his white horse Nahar shone like silver in the shadows. Then the sleeping earth trembled at the beat of his golden hooves, and in the twilight of the world Oromë would sound the Valaróma his great horn upon the plains of Arda; whereat the mountains echoed, and the shadows of evil fled away, and Melkor himself quailed in Utumno, foreboding the wrath to come." (The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Ch 1, Of The Beginning of Days)

Keep in mind, melkor would have access to abilities like this given that he has the power of all the valar, and he at his prime possesed ability to take a hit from all of these gods.

He also posses terrakenisis, shown greatest when he pulled volcanos out of the ground: “... there he [Morgoth] made a mighty gate. But above this gate, and behind it even to the mountains, he piled the thunderous towers of Thangorodrim, that were made of the ash and slag of his subterranean furnaces, and the vast refuse of his tunnellings. They were black and desolate and exceedingly lofty ...” ( Of Beleriand and Its Realms, the Silmarillion)

And it goes without saying, pyrokinisis: "Then suddenly Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that... poured over all the plain; and the Mountains of Iron belched forth fires of many poisonous hues, and the fume of them stank... and was deadly. Thus Ard-galen... became a burned and desolate waste... and it was called Anfauglith, the Gasping Dust. Many charred bones had there their roofless grave; for many of the Noldor perished... who were caught by the running flame... The heights of Dorthonion and Ered Wethrin held back the fiery torrents, but their woods upon the slopes that looked towards Angband were all kindled, and the smoke wrought confusion among the defenders. Thus began the fourth of the great battles, Dagor Bragollach, the Battle of Sudden Flame." (The Silmarillion, "Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad").

Melkor also should scale from sauron, being vastly superior. Sauron was able to survive the divine smite from the valar: "Now the lightnings increased and slew men upon the hills, and in the fields, and in the streets of the city; and a fiery bolt smote the dome of the Temple and shore it asunder, and it was wreathed in flame. But the Temple itself was unshaken, and Sauron stood there upon the pinnacle and defied the lightning and was unharmed; and in that hour men called him a god and did all that he would."

And could cast illusions: "On a time of autumn he came in the dusk of evening, and drawing near he saw as he thought a light at the window; and coming warily he looked within. There he saw Eilinel, and her face was worn with grief and hunger, and it seemed to him that he heard her voice lamenting that he had forsaken her. But even as he cried aloud the light was blown out in the wind; wolves howled, and on his shoulders he felt suddenly the heavy hands of Sauron's hunters. Thus Gorlim was ensnared; and taking him to their camp they tormented, seeking to learn the hidings of Barahir and all his ways. But nothing would Gorlim tell. Then they promised him that he should be released and restored to Eilinel, if he would yield; and being at last worn with pain, and yearning for his wife, he faltered. Then straightaway they brought him into the dreadful presence of Sauron; and Sauron said: 'I hear now that thou wouldst barter with me. What is thy price?'

And Gorlim answered that he should find Eilinel again, and with her be set free; for he thought Eilinel also had been made captive.

Than Sauron smiled, saying: 'That is a small price for so great a treachery. So shall it surely be. Say on!'

Now Gorlim would have drawn back, but daunted by the eyes of Sauron he told at last all that he would know.

Then Sauron laughed; and he mocked Gorlim, and revealed to him that he had only seen a phantom devised by wizardry to entrap him; for Eilinel was dead. 'Nonetheless I will grant thy prayer,' said Sauron; 'and thou shalt go to Eilinel, and be set free of my service.' Then he put him cruelly to death."

Interestingly enough, sauron was original a miar of crafting and smithing, so illusion casting would not have been within his original powerset. This is somthing he would have gained entirely from melkor himself, although i do not have a source for that claim, it is a reasonable assumption.

And to reiterate what i said about melkor destroying the sun and moon, morgoth destroying the sun and moon is from the passage: "Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon...". This was an early draft for the silmarillion, "dagor dagorath".

He has yet to do it, but considering how the prophecies in fiction work, it is pretty safe to say it is well within the realm of possibility. If you take tolkiens side notes seriously, as to my knowlage this never made it into the final draft.

Hopfully this helps the thread.

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#46 Posted by Brittonic_para (303 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Edited by Xerolot (3013 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not really into the whole Dragonborn is country, world universe level xxx + because of some quotes from the other sources. All I know is that during the game you can be easily killed by some bandits and dragons are defeated by guards. Maybe I'm biased idiot who's inconsequent in his opinions.

But it's just the way I feel, that Dragonborn would be a lot cooler if he was solid street level character.

btw: I know ingame mechanics are shitty and I shouldn't judge character by them. Don't mind me.

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#48 Posted by i_like_swords (26244 posts) - - Show Bio

@xerolot said:

I'm not really into the whole Dragonborn is country, world universe level xxx + because of some quotes from the other sources. All I know is that during the game you can be easily killed by some bandits and dragons are defeated by guards. Maybe I'm biased idiot who's inconsequent in his opinions.

But it's just the way I feel, that Dragonborn would be a lot cooler if he was solid street level character.

btw: I know ingame mechanics are shitty and I shouldn't judge character by them. Don't mind me.

I would be okay with this being a copypasta for every Dragonborn thread ever.

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#49 Edited by Brittonic_para (303 posts) - - Show Bio

@xerolot: i more or less view him as a solid high mid tier. He has great versatility, and can clear most if not all street and lowtier with min trouble, and even clear through a large amount of mid tier, but at a certain point his damage output falls flat. Although it is true he dies technically warp reality to use shouts, they all have a guaranteed effect, and he cannot manipulate it in other ways. He has much more options then an opponent if he was fighting, say, the hulk, bjt he would struggle to find a way to actually get passed hulks durability, let alone regeneration.

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#50 Posted by FireStarLord73194 (5438 posts) - - Show Bio

@inside: from my understanding Melkor destroyed the massive trees whose remaining fruits became the sun and moon. If each fruit can be considered a celestial body, your talking an over multi solar system+ type feat