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#1 Posted by SleepingSlaves (445 posts) - - Show Bio

Meliodas | The Rightful Demon King

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Demon Against Death

Meliodas will battle versions of Ichigo in the form of a gauntlet going from weakest to strongest. It will be separated into two runs, with one being AM and the other being DK. I'll give them both basic knowledge on the other in each round, as well as five minutes to think of a strategy.

  1. Shikai Ichigo (Soul Society)
  2. Bankai Ichigo (Soul Society)
  3. Visored Shikai Ichigo (Hueco Mundo)
  4. Fullbring Shikai Ichigo (Fullbring)
  5. Visored Bankai Ichigo (Hueco Mundo)
  6. Vasto Lorde Ichigo (Hueco Mundo)
  7. Fullbring Bankai Ichigo (Fullbring)
  8. Dangai Ichigo (Fake Karakura Town)
  9. True Shikai Ichigo (Thousand Year Blood War)
  10. True Bankai Ichigo (Thousand Year Blood War)

How far does he get? Does he defeat all incarnations of Ichigo as I've heard some say? Please leave your unbiased thoughts below.

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#2 Posted by LeoTheGreatest (4759 posts) - - Show Bio

Hard stop at 8.

And the only way he gets passed 6 is if we ignore quite a number of things.

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#3 Posted by SleepingSlaves (445 posts) - - Show Bio

@leothegreatest:

Hard stop at 8.

Any specific reasoning?

And the only way he gets passed 6 is if we ignore quite a number of things.

What things? I'm genuinely curious.

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#4 Posted by Chair-Sama (2299 posts) - - Show Bio

first run is a hard stop at 6-7.

DK run id say makes it to 9. 10 doesnt have many feats but the ones he does have are implying his power is insane.

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#5 Posted by cromulor (2360 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at 8. Some of the stuff before 8 definitely doesn’t look properly ordered but it doesn’t matter anyway.

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#6 Posted by SleepingSlaves (445 posts) - - Show Bio

@cromulor:

Some of the stuff before 8 definitely doesn’t look properly ordered but it doesn’t matter anyway.

Which ones? If you're questioning why I put Fullbring Bankai a round above Vasto Lorde, I'd recommend that you read the light novels (there is some information therein that would grant credence to my order).

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#7 Posted by LeoTheGreatest (4759 posts) - - Show Bio

@sleepingslaves:

Dangai Ichigo scales to be massively above 4 digit mach feats, Multi-Mountain - Island level energy attacks and scales to be leagues above Shikai Kenpachi who has a country level striking feat.

What needs to be ignored for Mel to beat Vasto Lorde Ichigo is Las Noches size and the fact that the Espadas 4 and up can destroy it by going into their Releases.

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#8 Posted by SleepingSlaves (445 posts) - - Show Bio

@leothegreatest:

Dangai Ichigo scales to be massively above 4 digit mach feats

Would you mind listing those feats? Ichigo is fast, but not "massively above four digit Mach" fast (in my opinion at the very least).

and scales to be leagues above Shikai Kenpachi who has a country level striking feat.

If you're referring to the meteor feat, that wouldn't come out as country level. I'd say that large island level is more acceptable (this all depends on how big you think the Seireitei is, though).

What needs to be ignored for Mel to beat Vasto Lorde Ichigo is Las Noches size and the fact that the Espadas 4 and up can destroy it by going into their Releases.

Las Noches has always been an enigma. It depends on who you ask, but you can go from city level to country level rather easily with different shots and statements. I'll not place my bet in that race, as I personally don't feel like doing going over it for the umpteenth time.

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#9 Posted by Wot_m8 (390 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at 8. True Zangetsu Ichigo stomps.

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#10 Posted by SleepingSlaves (445 posts) - - Show Bio

@wot_m8 said:

Stops at 8. True Zangetsu Ichigo stomps.

In both runs? One is Assault Mode while the other is Demon King Mel (that's a big difference in power, I need not tell you).

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#11 Posted by LeoTheGreatest (4759 posts) - - Show Bio

@sleepingslaves:

Ichigo evaded Gins mach 1000 buto without his mask, Base Aizen blitzed Ichigo with his mask on and seeing as how it’s a stronger mask than his previous one the boost can’t be any lower than 10x making it at the very least a mach 10,000 feat for Aizen which was done casually. Aizen then has 3 significant Hogyokuw power ups and is still weaker than Dangai Ichigo to the point the latter is a transcendent to him. So yeah is defini massively above four digit mach speeds.

The sereitei being having a 40 day walk diameter is a plot point in the manga and in the novels it was stated to take days just to walk to different squad barracks. So yeah i go with country size depiction of the sereitei making Kenny’s feat country level.

I personally place Las Noches at island level. Anyone who says it’s city size is being terribly dishonest.

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#12 Posted by Wot_m8 (390 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Edited by SleepingSlaves (445 posts) - - Show Bio

@leothegreatest:

Ichigo evaded Gins mach 1000 buto without his mask

Gin has openly stated that he lies about his abilities, so where's your proof that it was actually that fast? I've seen the databook entries, but those seem to ignore the context of his statements within the story.

seeing as how it’s a stronger mask than his previous one the boost can’t be any lower than 10x

Based on what? Where in the series has a multiplier ever been given for the Hollow Mask? In no way could you extrapolate such a number out of thin air without being called out by any reasonable person.

Aizen then has 3 significant Hogyokuw power ups

With all three being unquantifiable unfortunately.

So yeah is defini massively above four digit mach speeds.

I personally don't buy it, sorry. It's neither here nor there, though.

The sereitei being having a 40 day walk diameter is a plot point in the manga and in the novels it was stated to take days just to walk to different squad barracks.

I'm fully aware of that.

So yeah i go with country size depiction of the sereitei making Kenny’s feat country level.

It really, really doesn't. If Kenpachi had completely destroyed the meteor, you'd have a point; instead, he fragmented it into many rather large pieces, making the feat many magnitudes less impressive.

I personally place Las Noches at island level.

I can agree with that.

Anyone who says it’s city size is being terribly dishonest.

Yeah, it's honestly the same deal with the Seireitei. I've heard people call it a small city and just completely ignore all evidence contradicting the idea.

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#14 Posted by AlexTheBoss (17987 posts) - - Show Bio

6 and 7 should be switched

AM Meliodas stops somewhere from 8 to 10.

DK Meliodas either stops at 10 or clears.

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#15 Posted by SleepingSlaves (445 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: Six and seven most definitely don't need to be switched. If you haven't read the light novels, you're a little lacking in terms of the further scaling tied to Vasto Lorde Ichigo.

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#16 Posted by LeoTheGreatest (4759 posts) - - Show Bio

@sleepingslaves:

Gin has openly stated that he lies about his abilities, so where's your proof that it was actually that fast? I've seen the databook entries, but those seem to ignore the context of his statements within the story.

This doesn‘t really make sense you know it was also included in the data books so why are you arguing against it? Following the context regarding speed throughout the story it could’ve also been leagues faster than that.

Based on what? Where in the series has a multiplier ever been given for the Hollow Mask? In no way could you extrapolate such a number out of thin air without being called out by any reasonable person.

Multipliers have been given to resurrections and Bankai’s which the the mask obviously scales to and seeing as how it’s his strongest version it should be at the very least a 10x boost but can be much more than that.

With all three being unquantifiable unfortunately.

All three should be above the average captains Bankai which is 10x following the narrative and how those power ups were regarded they can’t possibly be any lower that.

I personally don't buy it, sorry. It's neither here nor there, though.

I already backed up these claims with sufficient evidence you’re argument seems to just be subjective at this point tbh.

It really, really doesn't. If Kenpachi had completely destroyed the meteor, you'd have a point; instead, he fragmented it into many rather large pieces, making the feat many magnitudes less impressive.

None of those fragments were even building sized and he completely halted its momentum with his blade which compared to the meteor is ridiculously minuscule.

Yeah, it's honestly the same deal with the Seireitei. I've heard people call it a small city and just completely ignore all evidence contradicting the idea.

That‘s what downplayers do, man.

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#17 Posted by ourmanuel (11894 posts) - - Show Bio

THE Ichigo Kurosaki?

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#18 Posted by SleepingSlaves (445 posts) - - Show Bio

@leothegreatest:

This doesn‘t really make sense you know it was also included in the data books so why are you arguing against it?

It makes complete sense, and there's no evidence for it to begin with. I'm aware of what it says in the databook, but that completely ignores the context in which he said it as well as the fact that he said he was lying.

Following the context regarding speed throughout the story it could’ve also been leagues faster than that.

The first legitimate lightning timing feat in the series was in the final arc. I think you're perfectly aware of how much sense this argument doesn't make.

Multipliers have been given to resurrections

This is wrong. It was stated that they were comparable to the Bankai of a Shinigami, but that's it.

and Bankai’s which the the mask obviously scales to

Based on what? Show me the evidence.

and seeing as how it’s his strongest version it should be at the very least a 10x boost but can be much more than that.

Again, based on what, though?

All three should be above the average captains Bankai

Tell me why. I need more than that.

I already backed up these claims with sufficient evidence you’re argument seems to just be subjective at this point tbh.

You didn't, but we might have to agree to disagree. I honestly see no point in polluting this thread with a rather irrelevant argument.

None of those fragments were even building sized

Actually, a lot of them were if I'm remembering right.

and he completely halted its momentum with his blade which compared to the meteor is ridiculously minuscule.

It hit the barrier around the Seireitei first, so how can you prove that most of its momentum wasn't halted with that?

That‘s what downplayers do, man.

Yeah, It's rough.

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#19 Posted by SleepingSlaves (445 posts) - - Show Bio

THE Ichigo Kurosaki?

No, the other one.

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#20 Posted by AlexTheBoss (17987 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: Six and seven most definitely don't need to be switched. If you haven't read the light novels, you're a little lacking in terms of the further scaling tied to Vasto Lorde Ichigo.

Those light novels inbetween the Aizen and Blood War arc being canon is questionable. And even if they are canon from what I heard that would only mean fullbring arc Kenpachi is stronger than VL Ichigo, and we don't even know how fullbring Ichigo compares to Kenpachi.

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#21 Posted by SleepingSlaves (445 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: Disregarding the canonicity of the novels (which is another discussion entirely), it's relevant because Kenpachi couldn't break the dimension barrier and Ichigo could simply by entering Bankai.

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#22 Posted by AlexTheBoss (17987 posts) - - Show Bio

@sleepingslaves: Can I see which scan you are talking about with Kenapchi not being able to break the dimension?

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#23 Posted by SleepingSlaves (445 posts) - - Show Bio

@sleepingslaves: Can I see which scan you are talking about with Kenapchi not being able to break the dimension?

I don't have it right at this moment (I'm on my phone), but it's during the Fullbring Arc when the Captains showed up and attempted to help Ichigo with Ginjo and his goons.

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#24 Posted by Zane240 (545 posts) - - Show Bio

Clears

Ichigo is overrated around here

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#25 Posted by Trndo (1085 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at 8

Meliodas is to hype

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#26 Posted by ovy7 (3066 posts) - - Show Bio

AM Mel: between 6 and 8

DK Mel: 8 or 9

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#27 Posted by UltraShaggy (968 posts) - - Show Bio

Each round he hard stop at 6, VL casually crushed a small country lv attack in hand , at 50% power. 100% VL one shot any version of meliodas .

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#28 Posted by mevbi (415 posts) - - Show Bio

AM mel stops at 10, Dk mel stomps the gauntlet

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#29 Edited by LeoTheGreatest (4759 posts) - - Show Bio

@sleepingslaves:

It makes complete sense, and there's no evidence for it to begin with. I'm aware of what it says in the databook, but that completely ignores the context in which he said it as well as the fact that he said he was lying.

It doesn’t ignore any context, he simply just wasn’t lying to Ichigo at the moment. Why else would Kubo include it in the data book even after he supposedly lied?

The first legitimate lightning timing feat in the series was in the final arc. I think you're perfectly aware of how much sense this argument doesn't make.

Yet we know MHS feats started in the SS arc with Ichigo reacting to Zenbon Zakura Kageoshi. So again that argument doesn’t make much sense.

This is wrong. It was stated that they were comparable to the Bankai of a Shinigami, but that's it.

I was pretty sure one of the fraccion stated it multiplied their power as well but yeah it was compared to Bankai’s which multiply power so the point remains the same.

Based on what? Show me the evidence.

Well you yourself already admitted you know that the arrancars releases are comparable to Bankai’s and we saw that Ichigo’s weaker mask was comparable to their Releases.

Again, based on what, though?

Tell me why. I need more than that.

These are all things you should know already. A basic bankai normally increases the power of a shinigami 5-10x and following the narrative that Ichigo and Aizen’s powerups should be significantly above a basic bankai power up.

You didn't, but we might have to agree to disagree. I honestly see no point in polluting this thread with a rather irrelevant argument.

No i did. It just doesn’t go along with your narrative and interpretation of the story but my goal isn’t really to convince you it’s to inform you.

Actually, a lot of them were if I'm remembering right.

None of them were.

It hit the barrier around the Seireitei first, so how can you prove that most of its momentum wasn't halted with that?

It went right through it..

I’m pretty convinced you’re an Alt at this point tbh.

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#30 Posted by WorldofRuin6 (3514 posts) - - Show Bio

AM Mel stop at 10. DK Mel clears.

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#31 Posted by GoldHeretic (573 posts) - - Show Bio

AM Mel stops at 10 will DMKing Mel sweeps the guantlet

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#32 Posted by TheEmperor95 (1486 posts) - - Show Bio

@sleepingslaves: gin said he lied to aizen long ago. Not sure why you take that as him lying to ichigo. To say that lightning timing only happened in the final arc is folly

https://www.mangareader.net/bleach/414/20

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#33 Posted by SkySanji (4824 posts) - - Show Bio

AM Mel stop at 10. DK Mel clears.

AM Mel stops at 10 will DMKing Mel sweeps the guantlet

@mevbi said:

AM mel stops at 10, Dk mel stomps the gauntlet

These, it's not that hard to understand tired of the Ichigo vs. Meliodas threads

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#34 Posted by weebbicboi (1381 posts) - - Show Bio

AM Mel stops at 8.

DK Mel stops at 9, where he gets one shotted.

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#35 Posted by Mazar (2 posts) - - Show Bio

Not only mess the hell, but Yamamoto and Ichigo himself even says that his vasto Lorde form can destroy the world.

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#36 Posted by Mazar (2 posts) - - Show Bio

@mazar: it's stated in the movie 4, so anyone who argued about the power scale can have an idea

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#37 Posted by FaradaySloth (10022 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at 8 both rounds, where Ichigo would stomp. 9-10 are just ungodly mismatches.

Still waiting for feats for Meliodas being above Multi-Mountain and MHS.

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#38 Posted by SolidShadow134 (118 posts) - - Show Bio

isn't horn of salvation Ichigo featless? why is he in the thread

doesn't really matter though since he stops at 8

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#39 Posted by BrownZeus (977 posts) - - Show Bio

R1 stops at 6-7.

R2 stops at 7-8.

I might change my mind about this.

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#40 Edited by Cyogre (147 posts) - - Show Bio

Mel is immortal he clears.

P.S. Please stop putting immortals in threads without restricting immortality, and people who comment, please actually bother to read the OP before you say they stop anywhere, just try to remember if they're actually immortal or not first yeah? I shouldn't be the only one to realize it after two days. C'mon man.

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#42 Posted by COOLGUY18 (1053 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Edited by SleepingSlaves (445 posts) - - Show Bio

@cyogre: Meliodas doesn't have the sort of immortality that would prevent a loss completely in a debate setting like this. If you really think that "immortality" is the be all end all in a fight, then you're sorely mistaken.

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#44 Posted by Cyogre (147 posts) - - Show Bio

@cyogre: Meliodas doesn't have the sort of immortality that would prevent a loss completely in a debate setting like this. If you really think that "immortality" is the be all end all in a fight, then you're sorely mistaken.

It's not specified whether it's just till KO, so I'm assuming it's till death. If he's the only one here who can't die then... What does that tell you?