As usual bleach is really bad at giving it's fighters direct power and speed feats while being far too good at giving hax that is undebatable.
By scaling and in-universe logic dangai ichigo has to be at least island level, but he does not have the direct feats to show it. I'd give this to zeldris and melodias even if technically you can't take down aizen with brute force without urahara's kido trick... but let's not take that into consideration, NLFs are bad for debating
@worldofruin6: it takes ichigo going at casual speeds. 9 hours. Going MHS speeds to took 9 hours. But it took yhwachs light only a second. So its a light speed attack. And sternitter could dodged it.
Kenpachi one shoted this meteor and hes weaker than dangai who is true shikia ichigo. This meteor stacked with is velocity dwafts anying melidoas has done.
I need to see these “lightspeed feats” because there has never been anything displayed in the manga that directly states or shows them traveling that fast.
The only physical feat Bleach has on par with NNT is Kenpachi’s meteor feat which Galan and pre Awakened Mel can both replicate.
Exactly how fast Ichigo going a Casual speeds? Hypersonic is Mach 5. Light speed is 874030. Nine hours is 32400 seconds so according to you the light was 32400x faster than Ichigo speed. So doing basic math that puts the attack at
162000 < 874030.
Now this is all assuming Ichigos casually travel speed is MHS. And this is based off of circumstantial scaling.
Zeldris on the other hand was show to be deflecting flight and attacks stated to be actual flashes of light. They even explained the feat during the scene. Not only that but he was accelerating the air at speeds fast enough to pull light into him. Not that’s a olid light speed to FTL feat.
@emanresu_20: their are multiple ftl feats for bleach. Lillie borrow could shot out light beams and even a vice captain could dodged. And ichigo is like 5 power levels above that easy. And his ap is better than melidoas. Kenpachi can cutt the very fabric pf space itslef. Ichigo is stronger than him. Can melidoas cutt space ill wait
@faradaysloth: lol exactly shika ichigo was said to be on par with yhwach. Same yhwatch also aborbed the power of all the sternitter. Thats means even Gerald who is stronger than bankia Kenpachi. Yeah its definitely a mismatch. But not surprising since bleach always gets lowballed..
@faradaysloth: not to mention the meteors velocity that everyone seems to ignore. It would make it 25,000 times more powerful than its actuall size because the average velocity of a meteor is 25,000mph
Between those Danafor Mountains and Aizen's ones, I see no difference. Honestly. I feel like you're being a little bit bias tbh. In the anime is was clearly depicted that both Aizen and Ichigo were fighting in a mountainous terrain.
Aizen vaped hills get over it.
Obviously a hill. Aizen goes as far to sat it's massive iirc. The surrounding hills should be around the same size at most.Legit mountains. Notice the tower on the left mountain.Gils tower is easily as tall as the hill Ichigo vaped. This tower dwarfs the hill Ichigo vaped.
Based on the above scans Mel darkness blast>>Fragor. The Danafor feat happened in a much weaker form as well.
Seriously where do you see "hills" in the manga scans? The forests? Danafor's mountain had one too... It's time to stop acting bias and treat both series with the same respect. Fragor=Mel's Darkness Blast. Easily.
Another thing we see is Fragor dwarfing KKT from afar in manga and anime. Dangai Ichigo is MHS+ in travel speed since True Shikai=Dangai. So saying it dwarfed hills only is so dishonest.
I addressed this above. Dwarfing a town would only amount to city level DC. The close up gives a better representation. Fragor is mountain+.
Bleach fights and powerscaling is all about reiatsu. It literally can translate into stats. Saying "It's just reiatsu" proves nothing.
Bankai Ichigo could sense Aizen's transcendent reiastsu, but Isshin was stronger. Reiatsu does not automatically make you stronger in every stat.
Good thing I backed mine up with feats and scaling.
You said Ichigo was stronger than Kenny. I ask why. You say "reiatsu meh". Then I told you why that is wrong. You didn't back up anything.
Dangai=True Shikai.
Not by feats. Unless you think the fodder Ichigo tangled with have mountain level durability(which would mean you are obviously wanking).
Proof that Las Noches is a city? Because last time I remember a six-day circumference around an object means that it isn't a city (how tf can it be a city if regular buildings there are Skyscrapers and a bunch of HHS+ characters can't cross it in an instant) Jesus Christ this lowball.
Timeframes are unreliable and shouldn't be used. Anime characters that should be way faster than sound take unreasonable amounts of time to travel in every verse.
Uh? Rephrase please?
What I mean is that if lanza actually had to deatroy a large construct, it would have to overpower large ampunts of solid stonelike material. It takes more power to destroy a large amount of rock than to blow up some dust.
None of those are comparable. Like. At all. It does take 3 days to cross from one side all the way to the other from Las Noches. That's a fact. Nothing to say that it isn't. This honestly sounds like another excuse.
You are ignoring inconsistencies in timeframes, even though this happens in almost every verse at some point. The 3 day statement came from Nel, a midget, who would take longer to walk that far anyways.
Of course there isn't. Doesn't change the fact we didn't see the bottom, hence "bottomless" not to be taken literally.
We base DC on the quantifiable amount of destruction.
Impossible since this is roughly Mount Everest level
Mel has a previous feat of making a 30,000 foot deep hole at Edinburgh. Assuming Mel's Danafor feat was that deep as well would be less preposterous than saying the hole is "bottomless". This is irrelevant tho considering you just had a poor choice of words regarding fragor's depth.
Good for Aizen, since Mel isn't as strong as Ichigo to swipe away an Ultrafragor.
I already addressed this. Ichigo's best strength feat is mountain level. Mel has hurt Escanor who nosells mountain busting physicals in a weaker form. Mel or Zel swipe ultrafragor.
He could do it singularly and it would still have a huge effect. And Zel would die on contact. Zel is a nonfactor here. And he can take Mel down with Ultrafragor since he was going to use it on Ichigo. And Mel can't do anything even revnege counter
Zel was present when Glox busted on Mel the second time, but was unscathed from the point blank explosion. Zel can easily tank a single fragor. He would deflect fragor if he is using ominus nebula anyways. Ultrafragor is featless, but to even use it he would have to pin Mel in place. Aizen is physically weaker than Ichigo, who is a mountain buster. How is he going to restrain Mel, when he barely had the chance to use it on a jobbing Ichigo.
Shunsui ain't fodder.
Shunsui doesn't have a single feat below dodging Lille's pseudo light that would be consistent with LS reactions. Shunsui didn't get any powerup to warrant an inconsistent jump in speed like that either.
Swiping a casual blast ≠ swiping the strongest attack
After so long in DBZ even casual blasts were planet level. Ssj2 Gohan crushed destructo disk tho iirc. Does he have planet+ physicals even tho planet level physical stats were unheard of before DBS.
Which means Aizen stomps Mel and Gloxinia then.
This is blatant bias and/or wank.
How when I just showed you he scales to Island level...
Fragor dwarfed hills........
Using a casual feat to say that's his max level is lowballing.
Even taking into consideration the distance and how casual it was, Ichigo vaped a hill making him mountain level.
Horrible logic when I just showed you that he did.
Every instance that you showed me was influenced by bias. You choose to highball the size of LN by using the unreliable statements and timeframes that would fit your need. You choose to highball the size of fragor by saying it destroyed real mountains as opposed to hills.
You mean him surprising Yhwach who reacted to Mimihagi, who's faster than Meliodas? EOS Ichigo stomps Meliodas in speed.
I was saying Ichigo's speed is the only stat that needs scaling for cuz the rest of his feats are pretty clear cut. EOS Ichigo is another story.
Grievously injured Ichigo was at the epicenter of an Island+ attack...and survived.
Not island level. I already heavily debunked this. When you say things like this, you truly baffle me.
Mel tanked Gloxinia's attack which is way weaker than Lanza Del Relampago.
Mael, whose power level is 200,000 has an attack = to Fragor
Ichigo survived greater attacks.
Ichigo scales to feats that trump the NNT verse.
Ichigo is faster than anyone in the NNT verse.
VL Ichigo Cero is comparable to Danafor busting.
These are all facts proven by manga scans, anime scans, light novels, etc. The sooner we realize this the easier.
Didn't fully read your entire post up to this point. Wow. I disagree with everthing here.This is honestly an impressive lack of comprehension of simple powerscaling and consistent scans.
I think we should just agree to disagree because I can clearly see that I will never get through to you.
I can not honestly believe we are STILL on this "Hill Level" Ichigo bull. Las Noches is easily the size of a country, Ulquiorra's attack (which he can spam) dwarfed it, and he would literally die from being in Dangai Ichigo's presence.
Do you mind posting a scan that illustrates Las Noches as the size of a country?
Not to mention Shikai Kenpachi destroying a 300 mile wide (minimum) meteor moving at ablation velocity, who is still miles below Dangai Ichigo's level.
There's no evidence the meteor was 300 miles wide and it was only moving at ablation velocity before it hit the Shakonmaku barrier, not after. One of the gates of los noches is the size of La and their are 3 more
Soul society is actually bigger than 300 miles its a 10 dat walk
The exact scan that you just posted. Soul Society is calced at 1,000 miles wide, based on a 10 day walk, whereas Las Noches is stated to be a 3 day walk in a single direction to get to a gate. It makes them vaguely comparable. There are countries about 300 miles wide, especially 600 (the general size of Lanza)
There is evidence though. Soul Society is estimated to be 1,000 miles wide and
@worldofruin6: this should end your whole argument. Their something called ap just because you dont make explosions bigger than the last doesn't make you weaker. Ulqiorias lanza had a bigger DC than aizens fragor. We all know aizen is wayyy stronger than ulqiora and would tank a lanza. Aizen has higher AP. Im sure he can make an explosion bigger than lanza seeing he can spam fragors. But in this scan yhwatch out right states base true shikia ichigo is dangi.
Based on the above scans Mel darkness blast>>Fragor. The Danafor feat happened in a much weaker form as well.
None of the scans you posted supported that claim at all. LDR dwarfed Mel's Darkness and Vasto Lorde Ichigo crushed it. That's weaker than Dangai. I will keep reminding you of these feats you seem to ignore until you accept the obvious fact.
I addressed this above. Dwarfing a town would only amount to city level DC. The close up gives a better representation. Fragor is mountain+.
You completely missed by point. Ichigo who was MHS+ in travel speed took Aizen away for a few panels. That blast was still seen from KKT. If you want to ignore the obvious of how Aizen dwarfed mountain ranges and still claim "Mountain+" then I can't help it but just assume you're being salty lol. No one can keep denying this long and expect me to take this seriously.
Bankai Ichigo could sense Aizen's transcendent reiastsu, but Isshin was stronger. Reiatsu does not automatically make you stronger in every stat.
Didn't say every stat. However, it is typical for you to be greater in most stats. Cherrypicking is weak btw.
You said Ichigo was stronger than Kenny. I ask why. You say "reiatsu meh". Then I told you why that is wrong. You didn't back up anything.
*completely ignores the valid scaling I did* ugh alright, I'll explain this to you one more time:
Anyone who has ever read Bleach knows those two forms at the lowest are the same power of level. Dangai and FGT is Ichigo having his zanpaukto being one with him and all. True Shikai is him gaining his true and original power
Gallery
Anyone who says "Nah m8 Dangai>True Shikai" is just another ignorant person downplaying Bleach.
Unless you think the fodder Ichigo tangled with have mountain level durability(which would mean you are obviously wanking).
You mean the Femritters who Ichigo wasn't even trying to beat?
Timeframes are unreliable and shouldn't be used. Anime characters that should be way faster than sound take unreasonable amounts of time to travel in every verse.
I'm just going to assume you can't prove Las Noches is a city.
What I mean is that if lanza actually had to deatroy a large construct, it would have to overpower large ampunts of solid stonelike material. It takes more power to destroy a large amount of rock than to blow up some dust.
But the Top 4 Espada can destroy Las Noches...you clearly see this being confirmed when Ulquiorra has attacks that can destroy Las Noches. Like what are you even trying for at this point?
You are ignoring inconsistencies in timeframes
Where are the inconsistencies?
even though this happens in almost every verse at some point. The 3 day statement came from Nel, a midget, who would take longer to walk that far anyways.
Nel lived there her whole life and Bawa Bawa is used for moving around.
We base DC on the quantifiable amount of destruction.
Ok. Fragor is still Multi-Mountain with the lowest lowball.
Mel has a previous feat of making a 30,000 foot deep hole at Edinburgh. Assuming Mel's Danafor feat was that deep as well would be less preposterous than saying the hole is "bottomless".
It's more preposterous to say a crater is bottomless when we see no bottom to one where we do see a bottom?
I already addressed this. Ichigo's best strength feat is mountain level. Mel has hurt Escanor who nosells mountain busting physicals in a weaker form. Mel or Zel swipe ultrafragor.
Nope since Ichigo is stronger than Kenpachi who crap on both Meliodas, Escanor, and Zeldris. They break their arms trying to swipe at Ultrafragor (though they probably wouldn't care, their pain tolerance is pretty high)
Zel was present when Glox busted on Mel the second time, but was unscathed from the point blank explosion.
Zel can easily tank a single fragor. He would deflect fragor if he is using ominus nebula anyways.
Omnious Nebula might be up there with Kenboshoku Haki for the most overhyped thing here on Manga battle forums. Omnious Nebula isn't saving Zeldris from getting one-shotted by something that instantly creates a crater where mountains can fit in. Plus Aizen is walking through that just like Escanor.
Ultrafragor is featless
but to even use it he would have to pin Mel in place. Aizen is physically weaker than Ichigo, who is a mountain buster.
No. I've already debunked this argument.
How is he going to restrain Mel, when he barely had the chance to use it on a jobbing Ichigo.
Aizen>Kenpachi>Mel. That's how.
Shunsui doesn't have a single feat below dodging Lille's pseudo light that would be consistent with LS reactions. Shunsui didn't get any powerup to warrant an inconsistent jump in speed like that either.
Shunsui didn't even really jump in power at all. He had nearly zero reaction feats before this...
After so long in DBZ even casual blasts were planet level. Ssj2 Gohan crushed destructo disk tho iirc. Does he have planet+ physicals even tho planet level physical stats were unheard of before DBS.
Using other series to try and justify Bleach downplay won't work here buddy.
This is blatant bias and/or wank.
No this is called facts.
Fragor dwarfed hills........
Now, this is blatant bias and/or downplay.
Even taking into consideration the distance and how casual it was, Ichigo vaped a hill making him mountain level.
But how when he's stronger than Kenpachi who busted a meteor that trumps everything in NNT?
Every instance that you showed me was influenced by bias. You choose to highball the size of LN by using the unreliable statements and timeframes that would fit your need.
Bro HHS+ characters cross cities in an instant. I'm not dealing with this "highball" bs.
You choose to highball the size of fragor by saying it destroyed real mountains as opposed to hills.
Following Manga panels and anime scans = highballing?!?!?
I was saying Ichigo's speed is the only stat that needs scaling for cuz the rest of his feats are pretty clear cut. EOS Ichigo is another story.
That Ichigo was seriously injured so the point still stands that Dangai likely blitzes too. The former I can agree with, but the levels is where we disagree with.
Not island level. I already heavily debunked this. When you say things like this, you truly baffle me.
Dude. The Seretei is island level. Accept it. It's equal to size of Wahrwelt.
Can you please tell me how this ain't the size of an Island?
Didn't fully read your entire post up to this point. Wow. I disagree with everthing here.This is honestly an impressive lack of comprehension of simple powerscaling and consistent scans.
I think we should just agree to disagree because I can clearly see that I will never get through to you.
Dude all of this is proven by feats. But fine let's agree to disagree.
Danafor feat is only mountain to maybe low end multi-mountain level. They said the attack was only 300m deep and that "mountain" has a house you can see on it so that's a hill.
People need to stop scaling Dangai Ichigo to things that happen later on in the series. It's totally idiotic. How can you scale earlier characters to later characters to take advantage of better feats? Totally ridiculous and desperate.
People need to stop scaling Dangai Ichigo to things that happen later on in the series. It's totally idiotic. How can you scale earlier characters to later characters to take advantage of better feats? Totally ridiculous and desperate.
Ehh, I kinda agree with you there.
but story wise it makes sense since Yhwach said ichigo had regained his power to beat Aizen. Not to mention, dangai wasn’t even trying against Aizen, the hill/mountain feat was just a half-assed parry, not even a sword swing.
Not to mention, R2 ulquiorra had better feats than dangai and monster, yet he’s much much weaker than either of them.
@ourmanuel: Except that statement is incredibly ambiguous and doesn't reveal whether Yhwach means overall or in that form or anything like that. Even if he did mean that there is no direct evidence that his shikai is physically comparable to Kenny outside of saying "it makes sense in universe".
But regardless of this it's absurd to scale a prior version of a character to a feat performed by an entirely different character far later in the series. Hell the feat Kenny performs hadn't even been written at the time Dangai Ichigo existed and the feat far outstrips any feat ever shown by Ichigo or Aizen at that point.
The scaling from Ulquiorra is completely different because there is a direct comparison in the form of Ichigo and the feats were performed prior to Ichigo's fight with Aizen.
You guys are concentrating way too much of explosive damage here. This is a battle where speed and concentrated strong/fast attacks get the win. A lot of people can do one-off high explosive attacks but lack in everything else that would make that even a factor.
@ourmanuel: Except that statement is incredibly ambiguous and doesn't reveal whether Yhwach means overall or in that form or anything like that. Even if he did mean that there is no direct evidence that his shikai is physically comparable to Kenny outside of saying "it makes sense in universe".
This is simple scaling dude. There’s no way ichigo at eos has less reiatsu than shikai Kenny. Proven by multiple statements and context.
But regardless of this it's absurd to scale a prior version of a character to a feat performed by an entirely different character far later in the series. Hell the feat Kenny performs hadn't even been written at the time Dangai Ichigo existed and the feat far outstrips any feat ever shown by Ichigo or Aizen at that point.
I guess I kinda agree here. I’m just saying that from the in-universe logic, it’s correct.
The scaling from Ulquiorra is completely different because there is a direct comparison in the form of Ichigo and the feats were performed prior to Ichigo's fight with Aizen.
Ahh, so you agree then that ichigo can’t just be “hill level” when ulquiorra has a better feat?
Must have mixed up the Edinburgh feat, which was 30000 ft not 300m.
You can see the windows on the building. That's definitely not a mountain lol. Also where are you getting tower? I can count for windows from the top to the base so it's similar in size to a four story building. On the the hill right next to it you can easily make out a tree as well.
@skysanji: that tower on that mountain confirms its not the actual size of a mountain. That tower is maybe 100ft. That moutains is 6 time taller. 600ft mountains lol. The same thing happens in naruto were their mountains aren't the actual size of moutians
Must have mixed up the Edinburgh feat, but it's probably be of similar depth.
You can see the windows on the building.
Omg!? How? You must have on magnify lens....
That's definitely not a mountain lol.
With no proof... the only arguement you have for that not being a mountain is your "there is a house" claim which has been disproved once you see the trees being dwarfed by the tower
Also where are you getting tower?
That is a kingdom a Tower on top of a mountain used for scoping out the area isn't to far fetched, either way it's clearly nit a house since it's dwarfing the trees surrounding it.
I can count for windows from the top to the base so it's similar in size to a four story building.
Stop it, again you can't count the windows because they aren't even visible, unless of course you have magnify lens
On the the hill right next to it you can easily make out a tree as well.
@ourmanuel: 1) I mean outside of the fact that there is no way to determine which one has more riatsu because we never get a direct comparison. Besides more riatsu =/= greater physical feats. And again even if we assume all of this is true and scale EOS Ichigo to Kenpachi directly, EOS Ichigo is not Dangai and trying to scale or compare them doesn't work.
2) Again, we can't scale feats this way. a) it's Kenpachi not Ichigo who performed the meteor feat, b) eos Ichigo and Dangai Ichigo are not the same form of Ichigo, trying to equalize them based on an ambiguous statement by Yhwach is shaky at best, c) the meteor feat was way later in the series.
3) I never claimed he was hill level or anything of the sort. Based on his feats and the feats of Aizen/Ulquiorra he is likely multi mountain. Anything above that lacks evidence or feats to back it up.
@skysanji: that tower on that mountain confirms its not the actual size of a mountain. That tower is maybe 100ft. That moutains is 6 time taller. 600ft mountains lol. The same thing happens in naruto were their mountains aren't the actual size of moutians
What are you talking about?
Also I'm not getting into this hill sized Naruto verse mountains debate with you again
Also that's only one of the many mountains he's destroyed, nice attempt at lowballing though
Also not to mention it dwarfs the mountains anyway:
A house with visible windows so you can gauge the height.
Not really dwarfing trees when you can see one on the "mountain" next to it.
If I can zoom to that extent then that means the picture was meant to be that large. The artist wouldn't have even put windows on the building if we weren't meant to be able to see it from that far away.
You want me to the point out the tree on the mountain next to it?
@leothegreatest: Considering the height of the blast, which dwarfed the mountains in the picture. The fact that it destroyed more than one mountain which can be seen in the picture and the fact that it made a crater deeper than the height of the largest mountain on Earth make it easily multi mountain.
Not even counting what he destroyed on the surface the size and depth of the hole could be considered multi mountain alone considering the volume of rock vaporized would be easily equivalent to several moderate (10,00ft) mountains.
Saying it's only mountain level is disingenuous at best as that would only be true if we were talking about the literal largest mountain on Earth.
The link below has the height of the blast for reference:
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