@krleavenger: My post wasn't directed at Sersi, your post is good. My post was just an overview like Multiversity's (I know fire won't hurt anyone here).
MD Tournament R1:TheMultiversity & KrleAvenger VS Foxerdes & MajorHellstrom
Round Two
Counters (Captain Marvel)
Before we start, I wanted to address that Sersi is most likely going to go for Atroticus because his apperance can look similar to a Deviant, which her race the Eternals is in eternal conflict with. Sort of like how the New Gods of New Genesis are in constant battle with Apokalips. That being said, most of my attention will be focused on Atroticus, while my partner will focus on you.
Moving on.
Moving on, not only did Capatian Marvel Jr. push the earth, he had to push it against a force ray powerful enough to knock the earth out of orbit, all while not harming the planet and not breaking a sweat.
Impressive feat.
Here Captain Marvel with the Wizard's powers one shots an amped Black Adam (he had 2x his normal power level plus he absorbed some of Mary Marvel's power). Earlier Captain Marvel couldn't even faze Adam.
This is another impressive feat, but a pissed off Sersi as I've shown was capable of one-shotting Hercules with her TK enhanced blow. This was without amplification and such. Black Adam may be more durable than Hercules, however, not to a significant degree.
Travels 1 billion light years (going there and back) in the span of one issue, the journey itself would have taken 1 day max.
Pretty damn fast, however, Sersi doesn't need to move to reach those incredible distances. She can teleport.
Captain Marvel hased through solid concrete (while he says he can only do it once or twice, that is PIS and the writters way of saying he can use it again because it breaks the plot. But I also have Lord Marvel physicals which mean it doesn't matter either way).
Not really a quantifiable speed feat. I'm aware moving fast enough to phase is impressive, but he didn't seem to actually phase through the earth, more so spin fast enough to tunnel through it.
This is after Infinite Crisis. Above Captain Marvel who just got his powers fights BA at blur hypersonic speeds (which was his top speed in the comic at the time). Billy only got better and faster, with morals off there is no doubt he can fight at FTL speeds.
Anything to prove he can fight at hypersonic speeds because this doesn't suggest he can. Heck, I don't see any reason to believe he can fight at light speed either.
Not only does he recover from that in seconds. But he says the other League members would not have survived that attack AKA MMH, Power Girl, Wonder Woman and John Stewart are less durable than him.
Was this a molecular level attack?
Survives a bomb either 1,600,00,00,000 times more powerful than the atom bomb or 16 thousand followed by a million zeros times stronger (for a genius, Silvana should know sixteen thousand million is not a number) with no damage, the blast was so powerful that it rocked the entire world as Silvana says.
Sersi is a molecule manipulator and Silver Surfer has planetary destructive capability, this is nothing.
I don't think I need to say more on the rest as it's just going over your character's abilities.
How fast is Sersi's reaction speed?
She's not all that fast, Billy is certainly faster. Thing is, Silver Surfer is here, and he is by far the fastest character in this debate. He's more than capable of covering Sersi. Plus, to make up for her lack of speed, she can always use her surroundings to fight for her. When in a battle against Sersi, it's good to keep in mind that everything can be turned into a weapon to fight alongside her, not to mention she uses her environment effectively. Sersi can turn inorganic life into organic life as she pleases by manipulating the molecular structures. Here she literally turns a wall into samurai's. In this case she could simply touch the ground to do this.
Everything can become a form of danger to your team.
How big is her transmutaion range?
Hasn't been specified either, she mostly just transmute things in her area.
How far can she teleport (read on a wiki that she can)?
It has never been specified, but she has teleported off planet on occasions. By the way, she can even teleport people against their will.
Gallery
Is her transmutation magic based?
No, it's cosmic based.
How durable are SS and Sersi?
Sersi isn't really durable at all, but she has regeneration, and create durable shields, force-fields, and can divert attacks.
If this counter doesn't seem like much, it's because my target is Atroticus, which I went over why. Before I go, how is Captain Marvel's telepathic resistance? Sersi has shown in Avengers Vol.1 #314 to telepathically scan the minds of every single being on the planet earth. Keep in mind, Marvel has plenty of telepaths, and people resistant to telepathy on earth, so it's possible Sersi got through a lot of those too.
Counters (Atroticus)
Alright, not much to counter from you as you didn't actually say much targeting me or my partner. I do have some things I would like to say about your post, though.
It is large enough to cover a considerable area and is deadly to nearly every creature it hits:
Atroticus's Napalm will most definitely be the most troublesome thing he's bringing to this battle, but it's nothing Sersi can't protect herself from. Any form of blasts should be something she can easily divert from her attention using her telekinesis. In Eternals #4, she showed to use her TK to divert the blast of a Deviant weapon (which are quite powerful) with a gesture.
I feel she could use her TK to achieve a similar effect here, which will make Atroticus most dangerous offensive capability futile.
Obviously he could anihilate an army of lesser beings and it would be of no meanings, fortunately Atrocitus hurt characters like Martian Manhunter and at once occassion he tear the space itself:
An impressive feat, especially the latter. If his Napalm can reach that level, it surely will be difficult. If it can somehow get by Sersi's TK, she has another defense which should protect herself in the form of shields. In Chaos War #3 she made Adamantine shielding to block the Chaos King's attack. He got through them, but this was a guy more powerful than Galactus and had Death herself running from him, so he was on Abstract level (eventually surpassing them too). Also if you didn't know Adamantine is Olympian metal that is nigh in destructible (which has been compared to Adamantium), so you know for a fact it's insanely durable. Hercule's mace is made from the same substance.
Find it hard to believe that Napalm is powerful enough to get through Adamanite, so Sersi should be pretty well protected.
Through many years of his existence Atrocitus battled several being that could rival the power of Kryptonians and other high tier beings, even without his ring he could still stand after getting hit with the construct of one of the most prominent Green Lanterns.
Wasn't this around the time when Sinestro was training Hal Jordan as the new recruit, meaning he was still a rookie? I don't think he was nearly as powerful as he would grow to be throughout the years. Not saying it isn't still impressive, but I don't ever see Atroticusover powering an experienced Lantern like Hal without his ring.
And the very same ringless Atrocitus survived fall from a flying ship.
Yeah, Atroticus without his ring is still pretty tanky. Luckily for me, Sersi isn't a brawler, but more so a molecule manipulator. All the strength in the world won't protect you against that unless you have some resistance or can manipulate your own molecules. Sersi is skilled enough to where she can rip an opponent apart molecule by molecule, which is something no amount of planetary (just an idea) of durability feats will protect you against.
Blunt force trauma is not the only type of damage he can handle, at one point Atrocitus tanked attack from Red Lantern corp.
Wouldn't save him from being altered on a molecular level. In Thor Vol.1 #285, Sersi disguised herself and her captive by transforming them on a molecular level into something else. She made herself look like a figurine and her captive like a plastered cat.
What answer does Atroticus have for this? I don't think I need to counter anything else because as of now, Sersi simply has to transmute Atroticus into whatever she pleases, and seeing as how he's not a fast fighter, it shouldn't be the hardest task to accomplish.
Conclusion
Now, to leave you two with a parting gift, what's stopping Sersi from potentially taking both of you out with a wave of her hand? She has shown that she can easily manipulate matter on any level. To show what I mean, here is an example from Quasar #25. When three opponents tried to attack her, she simply transmuted all three of them into different things (shows skill). One was turned into a mouse, the second a pig, and the last a goose. Keep in mind this was done casually (mere gesture) without any trouble.
Gallery
This is a possible outcome that can happen to your team from a morals off Sersi who isn't holding back. At this level her transmutation abilities are at their highest and she isn't worried about holding back. At best both of you guys are taken out, and at worst, it's one of you.
Not much, but here it is.
Just want to say that I won't focus too much time on counters since I will also be putting up a strategy. With that said, here are my counters.
Counters: Silver Surfer
However, Surfer never had a problem fighting against people with planetary strength and above. Take a look at the Hulk for example, same Hulk who put tectonic plates of the planet Sakaar back to their place. Not only Sakaar is way bigger than the planet Earth, but the plates were trying to tear themselves apart. So Hulk did not only put them back together with strength alone, but he overpowered them at the same time.
Nice strength feat, but that isn't in the same ball park as Captain Marvel who can push a star a great distance without breaking a sweat.
Keep in mind Marvel says "Only that oversized star could have stopped those meteors! Planets and smaller suns would only have been mowed down like grass." Based on that and the colour of the star pictured (and the fact that Marvel said it was dying) pointsbto that star being a Red Giant Star a red giant can weigh 15x more than our sun. Marvel pushed t out of orbit with ease then in one push he sent it into a meteor swarm at least 1000 miles away, all while not breaking a sweat once.
Yet, Surfer didn't have any problem against the Hulk in their fight Incredible Hulk Vol. 2 #95
That is cool and all but Marvel is way faster and a bit stronger than Hulk, plus he has other powers and doesn't fight like a brute. He will give problems to anyone he fights, even the Surfer.
However, fact that Superman stopped his punch directed at Black Adam because he stated that kind of punch can destroy the Moon (which is Clark's best showing of striking power), I'm pretty sure Black Adam can't tank a Moon busting punch, especially because he never showed the ability to do so. Silver Surfer on the other hand is very well capable of tanking those kind of blows. Let's look at Chaos War #2, the issue where Silver Surfer pretty much tanked a blow from Skyfather Hercules (not to be confused with Hercules that fought Chaos King and recreated the Multiverse).
When has a moon busting ounch OHKOed Black Adam? Anyway, not sure how powerful this version of Hercule's punches are so I will move on to your other feat which was Surfer tanking being a planet (or something).
For the sake of consistency, here is Silver Surfer getting smashed by various meteors send by Korvac, to the point of creating a planet using those meteors and having the gravitational pull put into it by Korvac himself. Surfer didn't tank any damage after he was smashed. Hell, he actually destroyed that planet with ease Avengers Annual Vol. 1 #16
I don't see what is so impressive about those scans durability wise past the first one. Those meteors weren't smashing into Surfer they were just attracted to him so while yes it would have hurt him, anyone with planet level durability could have tanked that.
Not to mention he pretty didn't even feel Korvac's blast.
Well Surfer says that's because he is used to the heat of 1,000 suns so it has to do with his heat durability, something not applicable when it comes to physical battles.
If you don't think Surfer is capable of tanking blows from characters on this level of power (like Korvac and Skyfather Hercules), I'll be happy to provide more scans. For now, let's look at speed...
I'd rather see Surfer tank something like a punch that can casually create a black holes, like Captain Marvel's punch can (not sure I can use it though as per rules).
Of course he was amped here (being as tall a a building) but I got fully composite Marvel so it counts.
When I saw this, it made me LOL. Not because it is invalid, but because it is just funny to me, because that feat is better than any Speed feat Flash preformed, which is kinda funny (besides instances when Wally was amped in Human Rocket story or when Barry was running faster than time and had Infinite speed, just like Superman did). Although I understand we are using Pre-Crisis scans, which is the time when DC was just ridiculous and didn't even care about consistency and logic power level wise, which is the reason I consider that feat to be valid, although 99% useless at this point. As I said in our "Battle of Supermen" debate, traveling speed works when you want to blitz someone. However, you still need better reflexes and perception (and overall reaction) to even try to blitz someone before they do the same to you. I doubt Billy will even try to blitz Surfer as I don't remember him even trying to do so and I doubt his reflexes, perception and combat speed are comparable to Surfer's, but lets see what you showed me below...
You'll see why I brought it up later, but yes Marvel will blitz but not Surfer (or rather Atrocitus will, you'll see).
I'm a little bit confused here. I don't see him saying he can do it only once or twice. He only told Mister Mind how he won't be able to do that, unless I missed something.
It's in the next page. But like I said it doesn't matter, he gets faster later on before the amp even (plus Mind gets traped in glass for some reason).
That scan is extremely blurry. I can barely see it. However I found a more clear version and I'll post it so the voters can see it..
Thanks.
I think you are talking about Crisis on Infinite Earths from 1985-1986 by Marv Wolfman, where Anti Monitor is the main antagonist. Infinite Crisis (2005-2006) is written by Geoff Johns and the main antagonists are Alexander Luthor from Earth 3 and Superboy from Earth Prime.
Umm yeah, sorry, i only remembered crisis and infinite so I just went with it, lol.
If you move your arm left and right at high speed it will move like a blur, and it is pretty clear you won't break the sound barrier. This just means they can overall move their entire body at that level of speed. Considering the fact that limbs and their overall reaction is way superior to combat speed and the movement of the entire body, and they already moved like a blur, I guess their limbs were moving at the speed of sound if not above but I wouldn't go further than that. Although I am not sure they are moving at hypersonic speed, because they are not breaking the sound barrier and there is nothing to prove that, a statement from them, from narrator, from somebody else... I'm moving my hand at top speed, left and right and up and down right now in front of my face and it is pretty hard to see it clearly and there is a blur. Yet my arm is not coming close to breaking the sound barrier.
(For NWO as well)
Okay so the next things you say show that I was unclear (for example when I said that was his top speed and you said something about Thawne which I didn't understand) and need to explain myself (no point in countering a misunderstanding). So here it goes.
There are a few things I would like to point out, 1. In Shazam the New Begining Shazam's top speed was around hypersonic and 2. When I said he got faster I meant because I am using composite Shazam (and he did get faster but that is off topic).
Here is proof of them fight in hypersonic speeds.
This happened a page before my scan, note the text boxes saying they are way faster than sound AKA hypersonic. Now you may be thinking that Billy and Adam just flew at each other at hypersonic speeds, but this is not the case as neither one of them was knocked back and you see Black Adam hitting Billy which makes it seem like the white flash was not Billy and Adam smashing into each other but them fighting (like a cartoon dust cloud but hypersonic) in the next page (which you showed) you can clearly see they are fighting in white blur speeds supporting my theory. This is supported by the fact that 1. Billy is mad, on top of an ocean and letting lose (thus he can/will use his top speed). 2. Every other time Adam and Billy have fought thus far, they don't have the same blur affect.
Hopefully this proves they can fight at hypersonic speeds AKA their top travel speed or at least close to it. What about FTL or LS? You may ask, well as shown before Billy (in other versions) can fly at MFTL speeds so if he can fight at his top travel speeds (something he only does when he is mad) he can fight in atleast fight in FTL-LS speeds.
(If you have trouble understanding my point, basically it's Billy can fight as fast as he can fly, as when his top travel speed was only hypersonic, it was shown that he can in fact fight in those speeds or at least close to it).
If you solid proof of Captain Marvel fighting at LS see below (also he fights using his top travel speed again).
Gallery
Here he blitzes Superman villains, very impressive as he stabs Parasite (who had just drained Supes's powers) with Kryptonite before he could react then blitzed Bizzaro into space.
In order to blitz someone like Bizzaro (who has Supes' stats) you would need LS combat speed at the very least
Asides from this the only other feats I can show of Marvel being able to travel and fight at the same speeds is the fact that he was never blitzes by anyone who he could travel faster than (or rather never blitzes by anyone below MFTL) in any version (keep in mind some versions of Marvel is only LS or hypersonic), and the fact that he never uses his combat speed because his enemies are slow (who range from a telepath worm to a small old bald man Billy could beat 1v1), plus WW can and they have been shown to be equals many times (scans if needed). But I do have other FTL/LS comabat feats I will sprinkle around the debate.
Now let me show you one speed feat for Silver Surfer that I think we talked about and I think you are gonna disagree with my view of it, but I'm not gonna argue against that argumnet until you mention it. It happened in Beta Ray Bill: The Godhunter #2. Surfer fought Beta Ray Bill in Hyperspace, which requires Faster than Light travel.
Not that impressive consedering I am MFTL.
This is also pretty impressive durability showing as well, as Beta Ray Bill punched Silver Surfer while having striking power boost from momentum he gained from travelling faster than light. He even punched Surfer hard enough, to the point that he was slammed into Skuttlebutt, Bill's ship that was also travelling FTL in this instance. Meaning that Bill punched Surfer hard enough to travel FTL and Surfer was unharmed. This is impressive because Bill actually destroyed the Moon at some point and even KO'd Stardust who is ridiculously more durable than Bill himself as he didn't even feel a thunderclap from Galactus that one shotted Bill.
Okay I accept this as a good durability feat. But if it was supposed be a combat speed feat, I don't really understand what you are trying to say (all I see is Surfer getting hammered).
Not good enough? Here is Surfer having enough time to think and then react before a nanosecond passes.
That's good. But I can casually fight at those speeds (more evidence of FTL combat speed as well).
I highly doubt it. It is him being concerned about them surviving or not. Billy even considers himself Superman's equal which is just not the case.
Scans? Everytime I see Billy and Supes being called equals it is either by feats, Superman saying it or the writter saying, I have yet to see Billy himself claim to be as strong as Supes (not that he isn't but that is off topic).
And he didn't even tank it, his skin was totally destroyed and his muscles were torn apart. He just healed.
Actually I have trouble remembering if it was Marvel's HF or if that was just the effect of the blast except Marvel survived. It did no lasting damage to him either way so I doubt it matters.
Other members of the JLA (besides MMH) don't have a healing factor.
Pretty sure WW has a healing factor.
Anyway, if the only feat preformed by Tesseract Bomb is tearing apart Billy's muscles, I am pretty sure John Stewart can survive it, even less MMH.
MMH maybe as Marvel may not have been talking to him but he was talking to John
Powergirl and Wonder Woman may die but they are so inferior to Bloodlusted Superman, to the point that Diana was one shotted by Clark from Sun to the Earth and Powergirl getting ragdolled by Diana because of her superior skill despite the fact that they are physically equal to each other.
Nope. That is inconsistant, WW and Supes are close in terms of stats as stated and shown many times, Supes' one shotting her is PIS unless he was amped or sucker punched her. But this is off topic the feat is impressive either way.
Again, fact that the force to destroy an object/body is way greater than the weight/mass of an object, and how the mass of an average planet is already greater than the force of the bomb Billy tanked, I am confident when I say that Surfer has more than enough damage output to take down Billy, especially because he casually destroyed the planet.
Okay, okay. So from what I gather you are saying that the nuke Billy tanked was only 1/8 planet busting and you think that Surfer could KO Billy with a planet busting blast. That is all well and good but you are forgetting the fact that the bomb did not do any damage to Billy what so ever, I have a hard time believing a blast just 8x more powerful would KO Billy. Also if you were planning to spam it see my previous scan where Billy instantly recovered from having his guts turned inside out. Side note Billy can survive and heal from any mortal wounds as he is immortal (he obviously can be killed by magic, KOed or be incaped though) as shown below.
You can't really argue Kingdom Come Shazam is faster than Kingdom Come Superman. Clark was trying to talk to him and make him stop fighting as seen at the start of the final issue of the series (seen on your scan as well, where Clark fires Heat Vision at him) while Billy was going for the kill as he was mind controlled by Lex Luthor as seen in Kingdom Come #3.
I know. I didn't say Billy was faster only that he dodged his own lightning and blitzed KC Supes which he did (after the first hit Supes could have dodged the next ones if Marvel were slow enough).
Hell, Clark blitzed Billy to prevent him from dodging his lightning in Kingdom Come #4 despite the fact that not only Billy had a clear view on Clark,
Was that right after my scans? Cause Billy was not expecting that to happen and Billy blitzed KC Supes before that in another issue.
but Clark was already hit with multiple lightning bolts in a row, even tho he himself stated he is vulnerable (by "vulnerable" I mean doesn't have any physical defense against it) to magic in Kingdom Come #3. Hell, in the final issue (Kingdom Come #4), Billy was killed by a nuke created to kill all superhumans and the only one who survived was Superman and other heroes protected by Alan Scott who, based on his armor and the fortress he had in space, tapped into the power of Starheart which puts him on Skyfather level Kingdom Come #1. Meaning that even in Kingdom Come Universe, Superman is more powerful than Shazam.
Billy was only killed because he called down lightning to make him mortal again, he would have survivied otherwise. It was stated by the author that KC Supes and KC Marvel are equals (scans if needed).
Plus, Kingdom Come Superman preformed feats like being so fast to the point that not even Jay Garrick could keep up with him or even see him. Kingdom Come Superman is also so fast, to the point that he was nanoseconds ahead of Pre-Flashpoint Superman. Which is impressive because Pre-Flashpoint Clark actually showed the ability to react and fight at FTL speed, which is means he was fighting in span less than nanosecond.
Cool. But like I said Marvel and Supes are stated to be equals in KC so their speed should be about the same. Also Marvel has blitzed Supes in KC before as shown below.
Gallery
This is more impressive due to the fact that Marvel came from the direction Supes was looking at and that Marvel knocked Supes on his butt. So if you are saying KC Supes could fight in below nanosecond speeds, Marvel must have been flying at way faster than those speeds (obviously he'd know where he was going so he could think at those speeds as well).
So, when New 52 Shazam shares his powers with a single person, he won't lose 50% of his powers? Alright. Although, the two of you will have to make a strategy for that to work. You will be too occupied with Sersi and Surfer. Plus, would Billy and Atrocitus even decide to use that kind of tactic? I doubt it.
Yup. Well since we have perfect team work and the same morals, I don't see why Billy wouln't share his power.
I don't think he will use something like that in a fight and even if he does, it won't help him. Teleportation in combat is good for Nightclawer because he can instantly teleport from one point to the next in an instant while being ready to attack at the moment he teleports and teleports again. You have to master the ability to use teleportation in combat. For sake of the argument, Surfer has the ability to teleport as well but I'm not going to use that in my argument because Surfer doesn't use that in combat, at least not in an effective way.
Well Injustice Shazam can psuedo teleport/phase in combat but I know you have mized feeling about in game combat feats so i sill leave it be for now.
I don't think that is a huge factor.
Black Hole punches and Star level strength is though.
I am pretty sure Surfer can tank that.
How many can he take? Billy KOed Adam effortlessly, I am sure he use stronger blows. Regardless Billy is strong enough to create Black Holes so SS must have really good physical defenses to tank multiple hits like that.
Only traveling speed. Reaction time speed and combat speed? Not even close based on what I have seen.
Reaction should be the same as travel (can't travel galaxies without knowing where to go) and combat is around FTL.
Again, will they use that kind of tactic? Do they even have time to do so considering the fact that you have to face Sersi and Surfer?
Perfect team work says yes. We will see.
That is not enough to even make Surfer blink.
Could probably deep fry Sersi though.
And may I ask, why Surfer won't be able to manipulate those energies? Because they are magical in nature? That is not enough to prove anything. Iron-man absorbed Thor's most powerful lightning more than once and even used it's energy to amp himself to higher levels, even his energy projection. Surfer can absorb way more energies than Iron-man and I'm not even gonna get into energy manipulation. Silver Surfer is a top tier energy manipulator. He stopped an energy attack from Revenous without moving an inch Annihilation: Silver Surfer #4
First of all is Thor's lightning magical in nature? Even if it is those are Tony's feats not Surfer's. No matter how powerful Surfer is when it comes to cosmic energy it does not mean he can manipulate magical energy which is different in nature. Prove Surfer has done that then I believe you, but as it stands Marvel could spam lightning on Sersi and Surfer can't stop it if ever that happens,
I already showed how durable he is and Surfer does not need resistance to magic. He already tanked way more than Billy's lightning and fire can bring to the table.
Superman is very durable as well but Billy could beat him in a few punches as Supes has no resistance to magic.
Moving on to Sersi.
Counters: Sersi
Before we start, I wanted to address that Sersi is most likely going to go for Atroticus because his apperance can look similar to a Deviant, which her race the Eternals is in eternal conflict with. Sort of like how the New Gods of New Genesis are in constant battle with Apokalips. That being said, most of my attention will be focused on Atroticus, while my partner will focus on you.
If that's the way you want it. However I doubt you coukd even see Atrocitus or Marvel due to their speed.
Black Adam may be more durable than Hercules, however, not to a significant degree.
Adam was amped here x2 so yes he is significantly more durable than Hercules.
Pretty damn fast, however, Sersi doesn't need to move to reach those incredible distances. She can teleport.
Can she use her teleportaion in combat?
Not really a quantifiable speed feat. I'm aware moving fast enough to phase is impressive, but he didn't seem to actually phase through the earth, more so spin fast enough to tunnel through it.
Nah, Billy says he phased through it multiple times, it is just the art style that makes it seem like he dug through it (it is a children's comic after all).
Anything to prove he can fight at hypersonic speeds because this doesn't suggest he can. Heck, I don't see any reason to believe he can fight at light speed either.
Yeah. There is a bit on Surfer's counters for this as well (I titled it for NWO as well so you can find it).
Was this a molecular level attack?
Nope. But I doubt Surfer would attack in the moleclar level in character even with morals off.
Sersi is a molecule manipulator and Silver Surfer has planetary destructive capability, this is nothing.
Well consedering it had zero effect on Marvel I would say it is something, but I will reinforce Marvel's durability later on.
She's not all that fast, Billy is certainly faster. Thing is, Silver Surfer is here, and he is by far the fastest character in this debate. He's more than capable of covering Sersi. Plus, to make up for her lack of speed, she can always use her surroundings to fight for her. When in a battle against Sersi, it's good to keep in mind that everything can be turned into a weapon to fight alongside her, not to mention she uses her environment effectively. Sersi can turn inorganic life into organic life as she pleases by manipulating the molecular structures. Here she literally turns a wall into samurai's. In this case she could simply touch the ground to do this.
Two things, 1. You won't have time to manipulate anything unless it takes less than a nanosecond to manipukatebthings. 2. Surfer can't help you or he would leave himself open for Marvel to attack as he would be fighting Surfer.
Hasn't been specified either, she mostly just transmute things in her area.
Okay then, I will just assume she can transumte things as far as she can see.
It has never been specified, but she has teleported off planet on occasions. By the way, she can even teleport people against their will.
That could be a problem but I have a plan.
No, it's cosmic based.
Nuts! If it were magic I'd have the perfect counter.
Sersi isn't really durable at all, but she has regeneration, and create durable shields, force-fields, and can divert attacks.
As I said she wouldn't have time to manipulate anything (even against Atrocitus, I'll go over why in my strategy).
If this counter doesn't seem like much, it's because my target is Atroticus, which I went over why. Before I go, how is Captain Marvel's telepathic resistance? Sersi has shown in Avengers Vol.1 #314 to telepathically scan the minds of every single being on the planet earth. Keep in mind, Marvel has plenty of telepaths, and people resistant to telepathy on earth, so it's possible Sersi got through a lot of those too.
If she is that powerful, Marvel has little defense. But she only scaned the minds of telepaths, not read them, so it won't be too helpful in combat.
Strategy:
Here is my strategy first I grab Atrocitus and fly away from the sight of Sersi at MFTL speeds making Surfer follow (cause why wouldn't he) while I do that I amp Atrocitus with the powers of Shazam (as I said before this does not lessen my power level) giving Atrocitus MFTL travel speed (as you can see in my 1 billion light uears scan Marvel Jr. did that as well) then using his newfound speed Atrocitus flies back to Sersi meanwhile I fly so fast I break the time barrier to hit Surfer before he could react (literally).
Gallery
Then Marvel engages Surfer in combat not yet going all out (just trying to distract him). Meanwhile with his newfound amp Atrocitus can blitz Sersi to death before she she can maniputate him or react (pretty sure Atrocitus could bypass the HF but that is for you guys to debate), then after Sersi is killed we double team the Surfer (Surfer may be a planet buster but I highly doubt he could take out a morals off fully amped Captain Marvel and Captain MFTL Atrocitus Jr. at the same time, ipanyway if all else fails as per rules we could always BFR th SS to the Rock of Eternity).
Round 2 - Rebuttal/Argument
"My one desire is for peace..., ...peace for everyone."
Major_Hellstorm's Counter
Nice strength feat, but that isn't in the same ball park as Captain Marvel who can push a star a great distance without breaking a sweat.
Keep in mind Marvel says "Only that oversized star could have stopped those meteors! Planets and smaller suns would only have been mowed down like grass." Based on that and the colour of the star pictured (and the fact that Marvel said it was dying) pointsbto that star being a Red Giant Star a red giant can weigh 15x more than our sun. Marvel pushed t out of orbit with ease then in one push he sent it into a meteor swarm at least 1000 miles away, all while not breaking a sweat once.
Comparing the size of that star to meteors, it doesn't look that big. There are stars that are not bigger than larger planets (I think white dwarf is planetary in size) so this one might be one of those. Hulk himself overpowered the pressure of a star in Infinity #6 when he was hit by a spear of Proxima Midnight. Either way, both feats seem pretty high end to me and it's showing of strength, not striking power.
That is cool and all but Marvel is way faster and a bit stronger than Hulk, plus he has other powers and doesn't fight like a brute. He will give problems to anyone he fights, even the Surfer.
Surfer is far from being a brute himself. My strategy is based on the use of hax and versatility. Showing Surfer's strength and striking power is there just to prove he can at least damage Shazam if he can't really put him down. Surfer pretty much one shotted one of the demons from the Cancerverse who are powerful enough to easily destroy Kree and Shi'Ar starships and even Gladiator and Nova had trouble killing them Thanos Imperative #2
He also beat the shit out of Beta Ray Bill and could easily kill him if he wanted to Beta Ray Bill: The Godhunter #2
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And if that is not enough, Surfer can just use the power cosmic to increase his strength to much higher levels. He did so against the Thing when he overpowered him physically so he amped his strength to reach the level comparable to a nuclear bomb (yes, it seems silly but this is Surfer from 60s who is nothing compared to modern version of Silver Surfer) Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #55
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When has a moon busting ounch OHKOed Black Adam? Anyway, not sure how powerful this version of Hercule's punches are so I will move on to your other feat which was Surfer tanking being a planet (or something).
He wasn't. I'm just saying that one of Adam's most impressive showing of durability was tanking blows from Superman but Superman never punched him with full force. And this Hercules was powerful enough to kill undead Zeus amped by Chaos King who was powerful enough to not only tank a blast from non fed Galactus intended to kill him but he also unleashed a lightning attack that did more damage to Galactus that Odin did when he fought in Fraction's run Chaos War #3
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I don't see what is so impressive about those scans durability wise past the first one. Those meteors weren't smashing into Surfer they were just attracted to him so while yes it would have hurt him, anyone with planet level durability could have tanked that.
Korvac created a planet and trapped him inside it. The gravitational pull of that planet should affect him because of the pressure, but he wasn't hurt at all. Plus, he didn't even flinch after Korvac's energy blast.
Well Surfer says that's because he is used to the heat of 1,000 suns so it has to do with his heat durability, something not applicable when it comes to physical battles.
Just because Korvac's blast is comparable to the Heat of 1.000 suns does not mean it is lacking damage output. I don't understand this kind of logic to be honest. Just because it was stated to have the temperature of 1.000 Suns doesn't mean Korvac's only intention was to hit him with temperature of 1.000 Suns. It is still a blast from someone as powerful as Korvac.
I'd rather see Surfer tank something like a punch that can casually create a black holes, like Captain Marvel's punch can (not sure I can use it though as per rules).
Of course he was amped here (being as tall a a building) but I got fully composite Marvel so it counts.
Not only I showed you Surfer tanking a punch from Skyfather Hercules but why is creating a black hole with a punch impressive? Can you tell me how much force it takes to create a blak hole with a punch? Is it building level? City? Mountain? Continental? Moon? Planetary? Star level? How much force does it take to create it? Especially such a small black hole which appears to be around human level in size?
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You'll see why I brought it up later, but yes Marvel will blitz but not Surfer (or rather Atrocitus will, you'll see).
Eeeeee... ... oooookeeeey...?
It's in the next page. But like I said it doesn't matter, he gets faster later on before the amp even (plus Mind gets traped in glass for some reason).
Ok, not that his combat speed was impressive in the first place. No offence to his character of course.
Thanks.
Umm yeah, sorry, i only remembered crisis and infinite so I just went with it, lol.
No problem.
(For NWO as well)
Okay so the next things you say show that I was unclear (for example when I said that was his top speed and you said something about Thawne which I didn't understand) and need to explain myself (no point in countering a misunderstanding). So here it goes.
There are a few things I would like to point out, 1. In Shazam the New Begining Shazam's top speed was around hypersonic and 2. When I said he got faster I meant because I am using composite Shazam (and he did get faster but that is off topic).
Alright, he got faster but so what? From what I understand, you tried to justify Shazam's showing by saying how hypersonic speed is the highest level of speed shown by pretty much anybody at that point in time. I may be wrong about it but that is how I understood your point that I was trying to counter by posting a scan of someone moving or at least someone being stated to be capable of moving at light speed which dwarfs hypersonic speed shown on the daily basis, in this case, it was the Reverse Flash.
Here is proof of them fight in hypersonic speeds.
This happened a page before my scan, note the text boxes saying they are way faster than sound AKA hypersonic. Now you may be thinking that Billy and Adam just flew at each other at hypersonic speeds, but this is not the case as neither one of them was knocked back and you see Black Adam hitting Billy which makes it seem like the white flash was not Billy and Adam smashing into each other but them fighting (like a cartoon dust cloud but hypersonic) in the next page (which you showed) you can clearly see they are fighting in white blur speeds supporting my theory. This is supported by the fact that 1. Billy is mad, on top of an ocean and letting lose (thus he can/will use his top speed). 2. Every other time Adam and Billy have fought thus far, they don't have the same blur affect.
Hopefully this proves they can fight at hypersonic speeds AKA their top travel speed or at least close to it. What about FTL or LS? You may ask, well as shown before Billy (in other versions) can fly at MFTL speeds so if he can fight at his top travel speeds (something he only does when he is mad) he can fight in atleast fight in FTL-LS speeds.
(If you have trouble understanding my point, basically it's Billy can fight as fast as he can fly, as when his top travel speed was only hypersonic, it was shown that he can in fact fight in those speeds or at least close to it).
I see your point and to be honest, I disagree with it. He can't fight at the same level of speed as his traveling speed for several reasons. Not only he was far from traveling at his top speed even for his Post-Crisis version, but I doubt he was even fighting at that level of speed as well. Because it was clearly stated they were moving far faster than sound when they launched at one another, but it does not mean they were fighting at the same level of speed when they started with the brawl.
Them not being knocked back does not work for me as an argument because we can easily come to a conclusion that they just unleashed an equal amount of force and there was no momentum to throw them backwards or just because they tried to stay in place and continue the fight. The other thing you mentioned does not work for me either because they just launched themselves at each other and they did not continue the fight the same way afterwards but rather staying in place with the background being normal and Adam punching Billy with his arm moving like a blur which is still below Mach 1 unless stated otherwise.
This theory has flaws mate. There is nothing to prove they were moving far faster than the speed of sound after they launched. Hell, there is nothing to prove they were moving fast at all after they launched at themselves at above hypersonic speed, besides Adam's arm. Even if they did, it does not mean they were fighting at the same level of speed as they did when they launched at themselves.
If you solid proof of Captain Marvel fighting at LS see below (also he fights using his top travel speed again).
Here he blitzes Superman villains, very impressive as he stabs Parasite (who had just drained Supes's powers) with Kryptonite before he could react then blitzed Bizzaro into space.
In order to blitz someone like Bizzaro (who has Supes' stats) you would need LS combat speed at the very least
Yes, it is from Justice series, Justice #5 to be exact and before I move on with this, I just want to inform you that I have the whole book in my room and your scans are out of order. This is the actual order...
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Now that I got that out of the way, let's continue.
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Well, first off, you should know that Justice series is not canon to New Earth/Post-Crisis Universe. Now, you are allowed to use those feats of course but we also have to look into those character's power levels. Not only that we don't know did Parasite absorb all of Superman's powers, or at least enough to make him just as powerful, but blitzing someone without them even knowing you are there and expecting it is not making that feat impressive. Parasite could not know Shazam was about to blitz him and therefor the feat is not that impressive. Add to the fact that there is nothing to indicate that Shazam was blitzing them at his top speed. As for the rest of your argument, I have to point out few stuff...
Bizarro is not equal to Superman. He was always introduced as being weaker than him so the ABC logic doesn't really work. Plus, Justice Shazam actually proved to be faster than Justice Superman because he stopped Barry Allen when Superman couldn't in Justice #7
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So it is kinda obvious he would be able to blitz someone slower than Superman. Fact that Barry was moving hundreds of miles per second (probably close to thousands) based on what was shown on panel plus the fact that he was tagged by lightning which moves in span of milliseconds proves how Justice Barry is not that fast. And he is obviously faster than Justice Superman who should still be faster than Bizarro.
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And I actually don't remember Bizarro being a light speedster, especially not Justice version. It took him few seconds to come back from the Earth's orbit to the ground even tho he was pissed after Shazam punched him. Hell, is Justice Superman even a light a speedster? I don't remember any feats to prove he is so it is kinda invalid argument, especially because he failed to catch Barry who was tagged by lightning.
And when you blitz someone, it does not prove you are as fast as the character you blitzed. Jay blitzed Wally West in Green Lantern - Flash: Faster Friends #1 even tho he was dying and had 24 hours to live because his metabolism was killing him.
Jay was also able to keep up with Rebirth Eobard Thawne who at the time was fast enough to fight the entire Flash Family all by himself in Flash: Rebirth #4.
Despite those two showings, it was pretty clear that Jay is inferior to Wally when he was barely keeping up with him when he was racing Superman but even tho Wally became an old man and had less than 5 minutes to live, Abra Kadabra still had to slow him down in order for Superman and Jay to keep up in DC's 1st - Superman/The Flash.
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So when you blitz someone extremely fast, it means you are pretty fast yourself. It does not mean you are as fast or faster than that person.
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Asides from this the only other feats I can show of Marvel being able to travel and fight at the same speeds is the fact that he was never blitzes by anyone who he could travel faster than (or rather never blitzes by anyone below MFTL) in any version (keep in mind some versions of Marvel is only LS or hypersonic), and the fact that he never uses his combat speed because his enemies are slow (who range from a telepath worm to a small old bald man Billy could beat 1v1), plus WW can and they have been shown to be equals many times (scans if needed). But I do have other FTL/LS comabat feats I will sprinkle around the debate.
To be honest, I wasn't convinced that any version of Shazam has combat speed comparable to light speed, even less on that level, or even faster. Feel free to prove me wrong but I before you do, I would like to inform you that WW is not a light speedster.
Not that impressive consedering I am MFTL.
- Why is that not impressive when the feat shows FTL combat speed?
- So far I didn't see anything to prove Shazam is even close to that level.
Okay I accept this as a good durability feat. But if it was supposed be a combat speed feat, I don't really understand what you are trying to say (all I see is Surfer getting hammered).
There is nothing to understand. I used it to show how fast Surfer is but it also shows how durable he is. Nothing more.
That's good. But I can casually fight at those speeds (more evidence of FTL combat speed as well).
So far this is the only showing of speed I have seen from Shazam on that level so consistency is not really there to be honest. It's just like Thor's microsecond reaction time speed feat. Surfer on the other hand moved at light speed on consistent level. He was circling around his opponent at light speed+.
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Scans? Everytime I see Billy and Supes being called equals it is either by feats, Superman saying it or the writter saying, I have yet to see Billy himself claim to be as strong as Supes (not that he isn't but that is off topic).
I don't remember Shazam saying that but that was not the point. The point is, he was concerned about others surviving, nothing more.
Actually I have trouble remembering if it was Marvel's HF or if that was just the effect of the blast except Marvel survived. It did no lasting damage to him either way so I doubt it matters.
It matters actually because Surfer can destroy Marvel's entire body. Surfer two shotted Cancerverse Thor with his energy attacks Thanos Imperative #4
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Cancerverse versions of Super Heroes were stated to be as powerful if not more powerful than 616 versions according to Worldmind which is a Nova Corps A.I which analyses every situation and informs Rich about it. It is capable of calculating almost everything so I don't see why it would be wrong now
Thanos Imperative: Ignition #1
Worldmind's statement can be supported by statements from Quasar and Nova Prime himself. Rick called them big guns and Wendell stated these guys have serious power sets right after Cancerverse Thor one shotted his construct with a hammer blow Thanos Imperative #2
This is impressive because Quasar's constructs tanked blasts from Silver Surfer himself, blasts from multiple Quantum Band users, Super Novas, blast from Thanos as well as combined power of heroes like Professor X, Jean Grey, Scott Summers, Ice-Man, Wolverine, Hercules, The Thing, Wonder Man, She-Hulk, Rogue, Colossus, Professor Hulk, Masterson Thor...
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And Thor is not the only one. Cancerverse Captain America was pretty powerful as well. Cancerverse Mar-Vell reached High Teambuster level instead of low/mid Herald level. And even in scan above, you see Cancerverse Ms. Marvel saying how 616 version of Quasar is nothing compared to their Quasar and then punches him, sending him fly few feet away. Even Cancerverse Giant-Man who is low Mid Tier physically in 616 Universe, was strong enough to hold of Quasar to the point that he was just focused on protecting himself from his punches with constructs, even tho Cancerverse Giant-Man was hurt in that instance.
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Pretty sure WW has a healing factor.
Enhanced healing, not a healing factor.
MMH maybe as Marvel may not have been talking to him but he was talking to John
John actually tanked planetary explosions and super novas before.
Nope. That is inconsistant, WW and Supes are close in terms of stats as stated and shown many times, Supes' one shotting her is PIS unless he was amped or sucker punched her. But this is off topic the feat is impressive either way.
They were never evenly matched when Clark was going all out. In that instance Clark was not holding back. Plus, Clark almost killed Diana before with his punches, according to Diana herself. And that was before Clark reached his full power.
Okay, okay. So from what I gather you are saying that the nuke Billy tanked was only 1/8 planet busting and you think that Surfer could KO Billy with a planet busting blast. That is all well and good but you are forgetting the fact that the bomb did not do any damage to Billy what so ever, I have a hard time believing a blast just 8x more powerful would KO Billy. Also if you were planning to spam it see my previous scan where Billy instantly recovered from having his guts turned inside out. Side note Billy can survive and heal from any mortal wounds as he is immortal (he obviously can be killed by magic, KOed or be incaped though) as shown below.
That is fine but you are forgetting that Surfer is casual planet buster. He is not just destroying planets. He is doing it casually. Plus, I already said that the force to destroy the planet is way greater than it's mass and it's mass is already 8x greater than the force of that bomb. I could not find the exact answer on how much force it takes to destroy the planet but from what I have seen, it takes around 2 septillion tons, something to destroy the planet earth, which a little less than 100x greater than it's mass. I don't know if that is correct and to be honest not that it matters anyway. Billy can't tank those blasts consistently.
I know. I didn't say Billy was faster only that he dodged his own lightning and blitzed KC Supes which he did (after the first hit Supes could have dodged the next ones if Marvel were slow enough).
Millisecond level feat at best.
Was that right after my scans? Cause Billy was not expecting that to happen and Billy blitzed KC Supes before that in another issue.
Same can be said for Superman so I guess we can base it on feats without ABC logic. KC Shazam's most impressive one is dodging lightning while KC Superman's most impressive one is being faster than Jay Garrick.
Billy was only killed because he called down lightning to make him mortal again, he would have survivied otherwise. It was stated by the author that KC Supes and KC Marvel are equals (scans if needed).
Lightning is coming from the sky while Billy was underneath the nuke while he was saying "SHAZAM". So while the lightning was coming towards him, it hit the first and the only thing above him before it hit him, which was a nuke. I'll show you the scans again...
Fact that explosion travels in portion of a microsecond while lightning travels in span of milliseconds and nuke could explode right after the lightning touched it, I am pretty sure the explosion hit him before the lightning did.
Cool. But like I said Marvel and Supes are stated to be equals in KC so their speed should be about the same. Also Marvel has blitzed Supes in KC before as shown below.
This is more impressive due to the fact that Marvel came from the direction Supes was looking at and that Marvel knocked Supes on his butt. So if you are saying KC Supes could fight in below nanosecond speeds, Marvel must have been flying at way faster than those speeds (obviously he'd know where he was going so he could think at those speeds as well).
- Statements don't have to be considered facts. Even if they are (they certainly are not durability wise), it does not mean they are equally fast.
- They were even considered equal by many in Pre-Flashpoint continuity but they are not, especially not in speed.
- We don't know how fast Superman was moving in that moment. I doubt he was going above hypersonic.
- I told you, blitzing someone does not mean you are on the same level as that character. It just means you are fast yourself.
- Actually, he didn't. He wad focused on the fight entirely and he did not expect Billy at all, who blitzed him from the side.
Yup. Well since we have perfect team work and the same morals, I don't see why Billy wouln't share his power.
Alright.
Well Injustice Shazam can psuedo teleport/phase in combat but I know you have mized feeling about in game combat feats so i sill leave it be for now.
Alright.
Black Hole punches and Star level strength is though.
Already talked about it.
How many can he take? Billy KOed Adam effortlessly, I am sure he use stronger blows. Regardless Billy is strong enough to create Black Holes so SS must have really good physical defenses to tank multiple hits like that.
Already talked about black hole punches and the reason why it does not work for me. For the record, Surfer not only tanked blows from Bloodlusted Warrior Madness Thor with Power Gem but he also tanked a blast from him which put Drax on his ass Thor #470
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And this Thor was so powerful, he could match Thanos himself and even damage him and his force fields Silver Surfer Vol. 3 #88
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Reaction should be the same as travel (can't travel galaxies without knowing where to go) and combat is around FTL.
I already explained why he did not do that and even if he did, just because he could move as fast as he is travelling on that level of speed does not mean it extends to his peak capabilities of traveling speed, if you understand what I'm saying. I already explained it anyway.
Perfect team work says yes. We will see.
Alright. I don't think it changes the outcome.
Could probably deep fry Sersi though.
That's not on me to prove.
First of all is Thor's lightning magical in nature? Even if it is those are Tony's feats not Surfer's. No matter how powerful Surfer is when it comes to cosmic energy it does not mean he can manipulate magical energy which is different in nature. Prove Surfer has done that then I believe you, but as it stands Marvel could spam lightning on Sersi and Surfer can't stop it if ever that happens,
The reason why I mentioned Tony is because he was able to manipulate energies of Thor's lightning which is magical in nature. The point is, just because it is magical in nature does not mean Surfer can't manipulate it. Surfer actually fought Mephisto himself more than once and he proved to be capable of countering his energies. He can also heal Sersi or protect her with force fields. I'll get more into that later when I think about the strategy.
Superman is very durable as well but Billy could beat him in a few punches as Supes has no resistance to magic.
- Silver Surfer > Superman in durability.
- Why is that a factor when Superman is weak to magic? Shazam does not have the damage output to take down Superman. Superman can be put down with magical attacks way easier.
- Surfer is not vulnerable to magic, or at least, magic does not hurt him the same way it hurts Supes. Surfer didn't even react after Karnilla blasted him, and she is powerful Asgardian sorcerer.
Moving on...
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Nope. But I doubt Surfer would attack in the moleclar level in character even with morals off.
This and the other thing below are the only things I care about countering. There is no reason to assume Surfer won't use molecule level attack. He uses those types of attacks consistently, especially to take down his opponents.
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He used molecule manipulation to incapacitate his foes by either trapping them inside their own clothes or other objects to incapacitate them, change their molecular structure or just destroy the target. So there is no reason to assume Surfer won't turn either Shazam or Atrocitus into solid atoms.
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Two things, 1. You won't have time to manipulate anything unless it takes less than a nanosecond to manipukatebthings. 2. Surfer can't help you or he would leave himself open for Marvel to attack as he would be fighting Surfer.
Well, because it is necessary to protect my teammate I might as well mention it now, even tho I'll focus more on that later when I get into strategy on my next post, but for now, I would like to point out that Surfer can easily just distract your team by manipulating gravity.
Or use his light speed+ board to block their attacks like he did with Mjolnir Chaos War #2
Or he can use the power cosmic to incapacitate either Atrocitus or Shazam Annihilation: Silver Surfer #4
Or protect Sersi with a force field powerful enough to tank a blast from Warrior Madness Power Gem Thor who put Drax on his ass with the same energy blast on the same panel Thor #470
Or just blitz either Shazam or Atrocitus and takes them down with a blast powerful enough to kill every single member of the Avengers, according to Thor himself Avengers Annual #11
It is in character for Surfer to blitz, ignoring consistent showing of CIS and him acting as a pacifist.
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And because you brought up that below nanosecond feat, let me show you Surfer fighting against his clone while flying around various planets, changing direction and blasting each other at extremely high speed.
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I'm still not ready to get into strategy section and I'm gonna save that for my next post but I would like to point out some stuff you mentioned.
Here is my strategy first I grab Atrocitus and fly away from the sight of Sersi at MFTL speeds making Surfer follow (cause why wouldn't he) while I do that I amp Atrocitus with the powers of Shazam (as I said before this does not lessen my power level) giving Atrocitus MFTL travel speed (as you can see in my 1 billion light uears scan Marvel Jr. did that as well) then using his newfound speed Atrocitus flies back to Sersi meanwhile I fly so fast I break the time barrier to hit Surfer before he could react (literally).
Besides the fact that I don't think your characters can fight or react that fast, it is difficult for me to assume you are just gonna fly away that fast. And I doubt Atrocitus can even survive travelling that fast and even if he can, Billy needs to shot lightning at him in order to give him powers. Lightning moves in span of milliseconds which is more million times more than enough time for Surfer to get there and stop him from giving him powers. He will already be too occupied with Surfer. As for Sersi, if they hurt her and almost kill her, Surfer can just save her life my healing her while keeping them protected in a force field, giving him a second or two to heal her. He already prevented woman's death from a bullet wound and he even removed bullets.
As for the force field, it already tanked a blast from Thor who operated as a teambuster and is more than capable of creating a force field around him and Sersi or even distract your team with gravity manipuation.
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Surfer can also distract your team with a black hole. He created the black hole after casually destroying the planet and than flying light years away in seconds Annihilation: Silver Surfer #1
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And neither Shazam nor Atrocitus are capable of tanking this kind of force.
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Then Marvel engages Surfer in combat not yet going all out (just trying to distract him). Meanwhile with his newfound amp Atrocitus can blitz Sersi to death before she she can maniputate him or react (pretty sure Atrocitus could bypass the HF but that is for you guys to debate), then after Sersi is killed we double team the Surfer (Surfer may be a planet buster but I highly doubt he could take out a morals off fully amped Captain Marvel and Captain MFTL Atrocitus Jr. at the same time,
Your team is still not capable of dealing with Surfer's speed and planet busting energy projection. Surfer also destroyed the planet when he was fighting Morg and he was just fine afterwards even tho Morg was KO'd Silver Surfer Annual #7
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Morg is extremely powerful Herald of Galactus. Here is some info on his character and powers Annihilation: The Nova Corps Files #1
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ipanyway if all else fails as per rules we could always BFR th SS to the Rock of Eternity).
Surfer was able to travel to dimensions like Mephisto's realm, a dimension where every period of time exists at the same time, hell, even dimensions that existed before the Universe itself. And Surfer himself said he can always return from any dimension he can travel to. Because he traveled to similar dimensions as the Rock of Eternity (and some even more complex), he will be able to get back instantly.
Add to the fact that Surfer has cosmic awareness which allows him to be aware of/know stuff that are just not possible to know and could not find out about it with pure logic. He even stated he can hear cosmic winds which shows a degree of Cosmic Awareness Surfer has. He has an impressive showing of cosmic awareness in Thanos Imperative #2 (on the next scan, the Galactis Engine appeared and Surfer mentioned it's name).
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Plus, he is faster and more versatile than your time so BFRing him is not an option.
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Foxerdes's Opener
I don't really want to counter your post. Instead, I just want to mention some stuff from your Summary post. And you should read my entire post, not just this section because I mentioned some stuff for both of your characters, strategy and well as mentioning
Atrocitus is a powerhouse capable of physicaly overwhelming the likes of Martian Manhunter and Apollo or fighting more than one top tier lantern at once. His napalm breath displayed power sufficent to harm both Surfer and Sersi.
While his showing with MMH and Apollo as well as his showing with Hal Jordan and Sinestro are extremely impressive, they are not enough to prove Atrocitus can actually take down Silver Surfer. As for napalm breath, while I think it can damage Sersi (and I explained why I will prevent that from happening), I don't see any reason why it can damage Silver Surfer.
Red Lantern leader is especially hard to take down thanks to his healing factor and incredible durability and pain tolerance. Even without ring Atrocitus could soak a lot of damage. Enhanced by red ring he doesn't care if his heart is ripped out of his chest or if team of the most powerful lanterns of each corp is pummeling him.
Yes, that's true, but he never really resisted energy attacks from someone as powerful as Surfer from what you showed on your opener so you will have to prove Atrocitus can tank something like that. And there is also Surfer's hax and versatility which I doubt Atrocitus will be able to counter with his powers and I don't remember him ever resisting attacks like Molecule Manipulation. Surfer mentioned it himself Silver Surfer: In Thy Name #1
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Besides that, I don't have much to say besides mentioning other feats I posted above which prove that Atrocitus is way out of his League here if he faces someone like Surfer. But this is still round 2 that wasn't even finished yet so feel free to prove me wrong.
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I'm not jumping to any conclusions just yet. I will work on strategy on my next post. Good luck guys.
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