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#1 Edited by TheMultiversity (1242 posts) - - Show Bio

Mightiest Duo Tournament R1:

Team 1 - TheMultiversity & KrleAvenger

  • Sersi
  • Silver Surfer

Team 11 - Foxerdes & MajorHellstrom

  • Atroticus
  • Composite Captain Marvel

Guidelines/Restrictions

Here are some abilities that are either restricted from the battle, but as I said if a character has one of them, the character can still be used, but not the ability.

  • Warping reality in any way or form isn't allowed.
  • Telepathy isn't allowed unless it's just to read your opponents mind.
  • Time manipulation is a no go.
  • There is no preparation before battles, so make sure your character isn't centered around it.
  • Self-duplication seems to be quite popular here, so I'll restrict it to 5 clones (again only if that character has that ability).
  • Summoning creatures and such are less troublesome than cloning so I'll resist it to 10 (again only if that character has that ability).
  • Attacks that can instantly kill someone aren't allowed (example being, a black hole expanded in someone's head).
  • Battlefield removal will be used as a last ditch option.

Rules For The Debaters

  • Fight to death, KO or incapacitation
  • Perfect teamwork on both sides
  • No preparation before the battle
  • In-character
  • Morals are off
  • Standard gear
  • Indestructible planet on earth the size of Jupiter
  • 100 meters apart
  • Battlefield removal isn't the first option your opponent will go for

Rules For Audience

  • This is a debate between the two of them, don't interfere in that.
  • Don't say who you think wins until the debate is completely over.
  • Keep your negative comments to yourself or at least bring them forth when the debate is over.
  • Asked to be tagged and you'll be reserved for voting at the end.
  • Do not flood the thread

Posting Order

To make things run more smoothly, I have created a posting order to help make battles flow better.

  • Post #1 - Opener/Introduction
  • Post #2 - More Information/Rebuttals
  • Post #3 - Rebuttals
  • Post #4 - Conclusion
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#2 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

First.

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#3 Posted by TheMultiversity (1242 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio

Sersi? cool, don't know much about her.

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#5 Posted by foxerdes (9953 posts) - - Show Bio

darn

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#8 Posted by TheMultiversity (1242 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: I guess we can start off. If I have time, I'll try and get a post up first.

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#10 Posted by TheMultiversity (1242 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided

Before We Start:

Seeing how this is a tag team match and there are two characters on both sides, I think it's likely in this fight for two separate battles to place. Not that this is going to be what necessarily happens, but is what is quite likely too. It's pretty reasonable for Sersi to fight either Captain Marvel or Atroticus, however, I'm going to say that she's most likely to fight Atroticus. You see, Billy is a human pretty much and Atroticus looks pretty much like a monster/creature, which Sersi is used to facing. Being an Eternal, she is often going up against Deviants, which I think has made it a pretty consistent thing for her to go up against creatures. I think she would feel she couldn't let loose her power on a human being a hero and all, although fighting a creature which looks fiendish and all shouldn't make her have to hold her power back. Knowing the Silver Surfer, he wouldn't really care which he had to fight and would most likely go up against either that struck him first or the one Sersi isn't fighting. Not to say our characters couldn't take either because they're both perfectly capable of defeating Billy or Atroticus.

Description:

Sersi is an extremely powerful matter manipulator, and one of the most powerful members of the Eternal race. She has been on several Avenger teams, assisting the teams when they needed her aid. Her power is so great that even the leader of the Eternals, Zuras, is wary of her powers.

Powers & Abilities:

Every Eternal has a special power they excel in, for example, Marrkari's is speed, and in the case, for Sersi it would be matter manipulation. Though they specialize in one power, they have other powers which they use during battle. Those abilities would be...

  • Superhuman physicals
  • Flight
  • Matter manipulation
  • Energy projection
  • Telepathy
  • Telekinesis
  • Teleportation
  • Immortality

Feats:

Now as I've stated, Sersi is an extremely powerful matter manipulator, and she's the best at what she does. She can rearrange the molecules of pretty much anything to achieve any tasks at hand, She can turn the most simple of items into something much more complex, no matter the size. She doesn't need to be in direct contact with the item she wishes to manipulate. When she does this it's almost instant, so there isn't really any way around it unless your flat out immune to molecule manipulation or are fast enough to avoid it, although the things Sersi has affected in the past would show that almost everyone is capable of being affected by her powers. Now I would like to give you an idea of her matter manipulation.

In Captain America (1989) #355, Sersi is asked by Steve to alter his molecular structure so that he'll appear as a teenager so that he can go undercover. She does exactly this without any trouble, which shows that she has excellent control over her abilities that even Steve would come to her, not to mention how effortlessly she does it. Also, keep in mind, she tells Steve she can allow him to keep his younger form for as long as she chooses which shows the extent of her abilities.

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Here is a showing of Sersi showing off her amazing matter manipulating skills as she turns three beings into a mouse, a pig, and a goose. She did this all with a mere gesture. The beginning of this scan also has Sersi stating that Eternals are immortal and don't necessarily die the same way a regular human would. Taken from Quasar #25.

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In terms of physicals, she was capable of one-shotting both Giant Man and Hercules one after another. Granted they were holding back, and weren't expecting her to deliver such a blow to someone she would usually consider an ally. I would assume she was mixing her power with her physicals for such deadly blows, so it wasn't entirely her physical strength, though it does show of her damage output when in close combat. Avengers #373.

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In terms of using her molecular manipulation to help herself in dire problems, let's look at Avengers #370. Sersi crash lands on earth after having her arm disintegrated by a Deviant weapon. Due to the fall, and loss of arm, and pain of the disintegration weapon, she wasn't capable of remaking her arm at the moment, however when she recovers, she reforms the arm pretty much instantly.

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Conclusion:

So, as you can see, Sersi brings a lot of raw power to this battle and I haven't even gotten into her most impressive showings. She has striking force which should allow her to harm Atroticus or Captain Marvel if she gets within close quarter combat, she has matter manipulation to alter your characters in any way or form, she can regenerate from what they bring forth and she has some other abilities (energy projection, telepathy, TK, ect) and power-coupling/tactics (combining powers and using tactics for different attacks) which I'll get into my next post.

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#11 Posted by TheMultiversity (1242 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by noah_ouellette (3454 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V and oooo an Eternal

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#13 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18237 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

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#14 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: I agree to that post order. But I can go before Foxerdes if needed.

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#15 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Edited by StaticSpeedster (2330 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V. Wow two of my buds are going against each other. Good luck you scrubs.

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#18 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: Oh, I figured that (because speed). But I am not following that plan.

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#20 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: I know, I was saying I won't let Sersi get away with just Atrocitus, I have a distinct speed advantage against her that I won't give up. I am cool with the posting order.

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#22 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by TheMultiversity (1242 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Posted by TheMultiversity (1242 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@themultiversity: Okay then.

Should I make the stratgy in my first post or in my second?

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#26 Posted by TheMultiversity (1242 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes: Forgot to tell you the posting order KrleAvenger thought of (in case you didn't see).

1. -You (Multiversity)

2. - Foxerdes

3. - Me (KrleAvenger).

4. - Major_Hellstorm

That is, if they agree.

Are you cool with going next?

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#28 Posted by foxerdes (9953 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes: I could go next but it may take a few days (also I already agreed to go last but it is probably okay).

Also, is the strategy I sent you fine? Any changes you can think of or ways to make it air tight?

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#31 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: Idk, no startegy is in place yet or either side so I guess we will see.

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#33 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: I see your point but what is the use of perfect team work if it will basically boil down to two 1v1 fights? Not to mention the best and safest way to beat Surfer in this case is to double team him. But we shall see.

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#35 Posted by NewWorldOrder (1776 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@newworldorder: Yeah, give two days. Btw, what qualifies as time manipulation? If I punch so fast that you feel the hit seconds before I started to punch you, is that considered time manipulation?

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#37 Posted by NewWorldOrder (1776 posts) - - Show Bio

@newworldorder: Yeah, give two days. Btw, what qualifies as time manipulation? If I punch so fast that you feel the hit seconds before I started to punch you, is that considered time manipulation?

Nope, that's not considered time manipulation. Time manipulation is anything that has to do with you altering time for your gain.

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#38 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Posted by NewWorldOrder (1776 posts) - - Show Bio

@newworldorder: I thought it is pretty clear we are going Team 1, Team 2, Team 1, Team 2.

I was speaking about them, I just tagged you so everyone heard.

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#42 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes: @newworldorder: @krleavenger:

No Caption Provided

Captain Marvel, The World's Mightiest Mortal

Captain Marvel also known as Shazam, was a young, normal, orphan boy named Billy Batson, that is until one faithful day when the Wizard (also named Shazam) deemed him pure of heart and worthy to wield the power of Mjölnir Shazam wich is comprised of the powers of six gods, which are.....

S- For the wisdom of Solomon.

H- For the strength of Hercules.

A-For the stamina of Atlas.

Z- For the power of Zeus.

A- For the courage of Achilles

M- For the speed of Mercury.

And he also has the powers of....

S- For the strength of S'ivaa.

H- For the fires of H'ronmeer.

A- For the conpassion of Anapel.

Z- For the powers of Zonuz (Yuga Khan AKA daddy Darkseid).

A- For the boldness of Atë.

M- For the lightning of Mamaragan (the Wizard).

Basically that also covers powers and abilities, except Shazam also has access to magic, teleportation, summoning, power sharing and psuedo shape shifting.

Feats:

To keep this short I will only show one(ish) feat per category and may have more than one category per section.

Strength

Fawcett Captain Marvel Jr
Fawcett Captain Marvel Jr

Before I go on, I just want to note that Captain Marvel Jr. is weaker than Captain Marvel, as shown in his origin in Whiz Comics #25 when the Wizard says....

No Caption Provided

The key sentence being "Pass on to this poor boy some of the mighty powers I once gave you." (This is for Fawcett Captain Marvel continuity only).

Moving on, not only did Capatian Marvel Jr. push the earth, he had to push it against a force ray powerful enough to knock the earth out of orbit, all while not harming the planet and not breaking a sweat.

Striking

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Billy Batson and the Magic of SHAZAM #21 (Reversed).

Here Captain Marvel with the Wizard's powers one shots an amped Black Adam (he had 2x his normal power level plus he absorbed some of Mary Marvel's power). Earlier Captain Marvel couldn't even faze Adam.

Billy Batson and the Magic of SHAZAM #21
Billy Batson and the Magic of SHAZAM #21

Speed

The Marvel Family #61
The Marvel Family #61

Travels 1 billion light years (going there and back) in the span of one issue, the journey itself would have taken 1 day max.

The Marvel Family #61
The Marvel Family #61

That means that in every millisecond Billy had to travel more than 10 light years (if that isn't MFTL then I don't know what is).

Use of Speed

Billy Batson and the Magic of SHAZAM#12
Billy Batson and the Magic of SHAZAM#12

Captain Marvel hased through solid concrete (while he says he can only do it once or twice, that is PIS and the writters way of saying he can use it again because it breaks the plot. But I also have Lord Marvel physicals which mean it doesn't matter either way).

He also has a good combat speed.

Shazam! The New Beginning #4
Shazam! The New Beginning #4

This is after Infinite Crisis. Above Captain Marvel who just got his powers fights BA at blur hypersonic speeds (which was his top speed in the comic at the time). Billy only got better and faster, with morals off there is no doubt he can fight at FTL speeds.

Durability

Pre-Flashpoint Captain Marvel
Pre-Flashpoint Captain Marvel

Not only does he recover from that in seconds. But he says the other League members would not have survived that attack AKA MMH, Power Girl, Wonder Woman and John Stewart are less durable than him.

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Whiz comics #102

Survives a bomb either 1,600,00,00,000 times more powerful than the atom bomb or 16 thousand followed by a million zeros times stronger (for a genius, Silvana should know sixteen thousand million is not a number) with no damage, the blast was so powerful that it rocked the entire world as Silvana says.

Magic

Billy can summon and spam lightning.

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Kingdom Come Captain Marvel

He hits KC Supes 3 times before getting caught in the next page (makes it 4). He was also fast enough to dodge his lightning while Supes wasn't. I just want to note that Superman isn't weak to magic, he just ist't resistant to it (like how Batman isn't weak to magic, he is just susceptible to it as well).

Billy can share his power.

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Justice League #21

In the New 52 this does not seem tonhave any effect on his powers (and no, if you think only the pure hearted can use the power uou'd be wrong, he shares his power with a tiger later the only problem is he didn'tt enchant him correctly).

Billy can teleport.

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Justice League #34 and 35

Because they mistreat Billy in the N52, we only see Billy teleport away then in the next issue he is breaking a gun. The Wizard also tells Billy that he can get to Jupiter from the Rock of Eternity in the blink of an eye as well (scan if needed but the above should do).

He can also breath fire.

Justice League #48
Justice League #48

Conclusion and Questions

  • Billy is above planetary in terms of strength.
  • His striking is enough to 1 shot an amped Black Adam (unamped Adam hit Billy across the Earth, scans if needed).
  • His speed is MFTL.
  • He can make Atrocitus as powerful as Captain Marvel Jr.
  • He has magic lightning and fire SS cannot manipulate.
  1. How fast is Sersi's reaction speed?
  2. How big is her transmutaion range?
  3. How far can she teleport (read on a wiki that she can)?
  4. Is her transmutation magic based?
  5. How durable are SS and Sersi?
  6. How is Surfer's magic resistance?

Strategy coming next post after you (hopefully) answer those questions.

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#44 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Edited by KrleAvenger (26242 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided

"Galactus is, and ever will be." - Annihilation: Silver Surfer #4 - Resurrection

Introduction

A man born Norrin Radd of Zenn-La, a planet populated by long-lived technologically advanced humanoid race which had created a utopia, with no crime, disease and hunger. Norrin was extremely intelligent. He became a scientist, seeking knowledge about the Universe. Norrin treasured freedom and peace above all else, but was destined to become Herald of Galactus, one the Destroyer of Worlds came to his planet Zenn-La, seeking to consume it and sustain himself. Norrin offered Galactus his loyalty and service, telling the entity that he will seek planets for him as the Silver Surfer, if he spares his home planet. Bestowed with the portion of Galactus's power, Norrin lost most of his humanity, spend decades doing nothing more but searching for various planets throughout the cosmos for Galactus to consume.

Eventually he came to the planet Earth and sent a signal to Galactus to come to Earth. However, after hearing words from Ben Grimm's girlfriend Alicia Masters, he was able to regain at least some of his humanity back, and remember the true value of life. He helped Fantastic Four and Uatu the Watcher stop Galactus. However, he was prevented from leaving Earth by Galactus, a punishment for betraying him. Now on Earth, Surfer felt like an outsider. Not only he was different than others, in appearance and nature, but Earthlings could not trust him. He truly felt alone, until he was finally able to leave the planet Earth, and started to explore the Cosmos once again.

Surfer encountered various heroes of Earth more than once, including Thor, The Hulk, The Avengers, Fantastic Four, S.H.I.E.L.D. and so on. He was a founding member of super hero teams like Defenders and Annihilators. He was fighting alongside and against Earth's Super Heroes, even heroes beyond the planet Earth, like Adam Warlock, Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell), Quasar, Gladiator, Beta Ray Bill and Nova. He was responsible for saving the Universe countless times, even while being a Herald. Surfer even became Herald of Galactus few more times, but always moved on from that role. Surfer also fought various Universal threats besides Galactus himself, including forces of the Cancerverse, other Heralds of Galactus, Tyrant, Annihilus, Mephisto, and manly, Thanos.

Powers and Abilities

Norrin's powers are coming from Power Cosmic, one of the primal forces of creation itself which Galactus embodies. Therefor, he is one of the most powerful Super Heroes out there. Very few non Abstract level characters can match him, even less beat him. He is on the top of the food chain of Marvel's Herald Tier list and there is a very small number of DC's Herald Tier Characters who can beat him. Silver Surfer is incredibly strong, yet, he is one of the most versatile and hax characters out there (excluding anime, magic and god like powers that are broken on every level). His powers include...

  • Superhuman Strength
  • Superhuman Speed and Increased Perception
  • Unlimited Stamina
  • Nigh-Invulnerability
  • Flight
  • Cosmic Awareness/Super Sense
  • Energy Manipulation, Projection and Absorption
  • Matter Manipulation
  • Phasing
  • Healing Factor
  • Gravity Manipulation
  • Force Field Creation
  • Teleportation
  • Time Travel
  • Dimensional Travel
  • Telepathy and Telekinesis
  • Astral Projection
  • Telepathy Resistance
  • Other Psionic Powers
  • Illusion Projection
  • Shape-Shifting
  • Evolution Manipulation and Healing

Of course, he won't be using all those abilities and some of them are useless in the actual fight. I just wanted to mention them for the sake of further information. For more info on Silver Surfer and his powers, here is his limited bio from Annihilation: The Nova Corps Files #1

No Caption Provided

==================================================================================

I could actually explain how impressive Surfer's abilities are and what are their limits but I decided to do so when the debate actually starts and when I'll be able to show Surfer's level of power by posting scans.

Shazam's feats - Counters

Before I go on, I just want to note that Captain Marvel Jr. is weaker than Captain Marvel, as shown in his origin in Whiz Comics #25 when the Wizard says....

The key sentence being "Pass on to this poor boy some of the mighty powers I once gave you." (This is for Fawcett Captain Marvel continuity only).

Moving on, not only did Capatian Marvel Jr. push the earth, he had to push it against a force ray powerful enough to knock the earth out of orbit, all while not harming the planet and not breaking a sweat.

I see. That is very impressive strength feat. However, Surfer never had a problem fighting against people with planetary strength and above. Take a look at the Hulk for example, same Hulk who put tectonic plates of the planet Sakaar back to their place. Not only Sakaar is way bigger than the planet Earth, but the plates were trying to tear themselves apart. So Hulk did not only put them back together with strength alone, but he overpowered them at the same time. Yet, Surfer didn't have any problem against the Hulk in their fight Incredible Hulk Vol. 2 #95

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Not only Silver Surfer was weakened in this instance, but this happened before Annihilation, the event where all of his powers were upgraded, making him more powerful.

=================================================================================

Here Captain Marvel with the Wizard's powers one shots an amped Black Adam (he had 2x his normal power level plus he absorbed some of Mary Marvel's power). Earlier Captain Marvel couldn't even faze Adam.

I have to admit, that is very impressive feat considering the fact that Black Adam tanked blows from Superman and Jay Garrick (neither of them were striking him with full force but still impressive). However, fact that Superman stopped his punch directed at Black Adam because he stated that kind of punch can destroy the Moon (which is Clark's best showing of striking power), I'm pretty sure Black Adam can't tank a Moon busting punch, especially because he never showed the ability to do so. Silver Surfer on the other hand is very well capable of tanking those kind of blows. Let's look at Chaos War #2, the issue where Silver Surfer pretty much tanked a blow from Skyfather Hercules (not to be confused with Hercules that fought Chaos King and recreated the Multiverse).

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And this was written by Greg Pak, who is a huge Hercules fan and is the same writer who wrote Surfer as a powerhouse strong enough to overpower the Hulk, in scans I showed above. Even tho he is the same writer who created Green Scar incarnation and World Breaker Hulk incarnation and considers the Hulk to be superior to Superman. And Superman is the character he was writing about in the New 52.

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For the sake of consistency, here is Silver Surfer getting smashed by various meteors send by Korvac, to the point of creating a planet using those meteors and having the gravitational pull put into it by Korvac himself. Surfer didn't tank any damage after he was smashed. Hell, he actually destroyed that planet with ease Avengers Annual Vol. 1 #16

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Not to mention he pretty didn't even feel Korvac's blast.

=========================================================================

Korvac is extremely powerful reality warper based on feats. Same thing is stated in Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe Vol. 1 #13

No Caption Provided

You can also find more info about the character in All-New Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe #6 (info on his powers is on the third scan)...

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=================================================================================

If you don't think Surfer is capable of tanking blows from characters on this level of power (like Korvac and Skyfather Hercules), I'll be happy to provide more scans. For now, let's look at speed...

=================================================================================

Travels 1 billion light years (going there and back) in the span of one issue, the journey itself would have taken 1 day max.

That means that in every millisecond Billy had to travel more than 10 light years (if that isn't MFTL then I don't know what is).

When I saw this, it made me LOL. Not because it is invalid, but because it is just funny to me, because that feat is better than any Speed feat Flash preformed, which is kinda funny (besides instances when Wally was amped in Human Rocket story or when Barry was running faster than time and had Infinite speed, just like Superman did). Although I understand we are using Pre-Crisis scans, which is the time when DC was just ridiculous and didn't even care about consistency and logic power level wise, which is the reason I consider that feat to be valid, although 99% useless at this point. As I said in our "Battle of Supermen" debate, traveling speed works when you want to blitz someone. However, you still need better reflexes and perception (and overall reaction) to even try to blitz someone before they do the same to you. I doubt Billy will even try to blitz Surfer as I don't remember him even trying to do so and I doubt his reflexes, perception and combat speed are comparable to Surfer's, but lets see what you showed me below...

Captain Marvel hased through solid concrete (while he says he can only do it once or twice, that is PIS and the writters way of saying he can use it again because it breaks the plot. But I also have Lord Marvel physicals which mean it doesn't matter either way).

I'm a little bit confused here. I don't see him saying he can do it only once or twice. He only told Mister Mind how he won't be able to do that, unless I missed something.

He also has a good combat speed.

That scan is extremely blurry. I can barely see it. However I found a more clear version and I'll post it so the voters can see it..

No Caption Provided

=============================================================================

This is after Infinite Crisis.

I think you are talking about Crisis on Infinite Earths from 1985-1986 by Marv Wolfman, where Anti Monitor is the main antagonist. Infinite Crisis (2005-2006) is written by Geoff Johns and the main antagonists are Alexander Luthor from Earth 3 and Superboy from Earth Prime.

Above Captain Marvel who just got his powers fights BA at blur hypersonic speeds

If you move your arm left and right at high speed it will move like a blur, and it is pretty clear you won't break the sound barrier. This just means they can overall move their entire body at that level of speed. Considering the fact that limbs and their overall reaction is way superior to combat speed and the movement of the entire body, and they already moved like a blur, I guess their limbs were moving at the speed of sound if not above but I wouldn't go further than that. Although I am not sure they are moving at hypersonic speed, because they are not breaking the sound barrier and there is nothing to prove that, a statement from them, from narrator, from somebody else... I'm moving my hand at top speed, left and right and up and down right now in front of my face and it is pretty hard to see it clearly and there is a blur. Yet my arm is not coming close to breaking the sound barrier.

(which was his top speed in the comic at the time).

Are you sure about that? Because Max Mercury claimed Eobard Thawne can move and fight at light speed.

No Caption Provided

And this comic (Flash Vol. 2 #77) came out 6 years after Shazam: The New Beginning series. Fact that Max Mercury is the first and the oldest speedster ever and knows more about the Speed Force than anyone, and was even complimented by the likes of Jay Garrick and Professor Zoom and was the only Speedster besides Savitar who knew how to manipulate the speed force, I would actually believe him. Especially because Thawne in this story blitzed Max more than once and overpowered Jay twice, both of which preformed below, above and overall light speed feats, based on traveling, combat and reaction time speed feats.

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Billy only got better and faster, with morals off there is no doubt he can fight at FTL speeds.

Is there any reason for me to assume Billy got faster? Even if he did, why would I assume he can fight at light speed, even less faster? A huge flaw in this argument is because you think fighting at hypersonic speed on a daily basis is enough to prove you can fight above the speed of light, which is just not the case. First of, I don't think Adam and Billy were fighting at those levels of speed for reasons I mentioned above. They were fighting at super sonic speeds at best and even that is questionable. Super sonic is a term used for a person or object moving above Mach 1/speed of sound.

No Caption Provided

That exceeds the speed of 768 miles per hour. Now, hypersonic is a term used for an object moving only at the speed above Mach 5/speed 5x greater than the speed of sound.

No Caption Provided

So it can be close to Mach 5 (which is just a little bit less than 3.802,8 miles per hour) or way above. Because it is pretty relative, we can't say a person can achieve light speed or above at it's best just because on a daily basis, the term used to describe his or her's speed is hypersonic. Because light actually travels 670.616.629,39 miles per hour. It is not comparable.

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Eespecially because Eclipso possessed Superman said he could dish out a lot of damage in Metropolis and even get there in blink of Shazam's eye Superman Vol. 2 #216

No Caption Provided

Now Eclipso himself said he didn't want to kill Billy because he wanted to possess him, meaning he did not want to hurt him badly. And overall the way he was fighting in that issue, he was just a little bit more aggressive than Superman but wasn't fighting beyond the levels that Superman would go for even in character.

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Maybe you have some more impressive combat and reaction time speed feats from amped versions, non canon versions or Pre-Crisis version of Billy but the fact that you used Pre-Flashpoint/Post-Crisis scan means I'm allowed to counter it with the use of Post-Crisis scan, like the one from issue above.

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And Black Adam, who is equal if not superior to Billy, fought the JSA, he blitzed Hawkman and was moving fast enough to move like a blur, not to mention he was extremely pissed off. And Carter still had enough time to almost finish the sentence before Adam was done with his blitz Hawkman Vol. 4 #25

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There is also instance in JSA Vol. 1 #6, where Adam struggles to keep up with Jay Garrick who was moving at lightning speed at best and even that statement is totally hyperbolic in nature, not to mention that the speed of lightning is 1.000.000x slower than the speed of light.

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Based on these showings, I doubt either Billy or Adam are coming close to light speed, combat wise and reaction time speed wise.

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Now let me show you one speed feat for Silver Surfer that I think we talked about and I think you are gonna disagree with my view of it, but I'm not gonna argue against that argumnet until you mention it. It happened in Beta Ray Bill: The Godhunter #2. Surfer fought Beta Ray Bill in Hyperspace, which requires Faster than Light travel.

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This is also pretty impressive durability showing as well, as Beta Ray Bill punched Silver Surfer while having striking power boost from momentum he gained from travelling faster than light. He even punched Surfer hard enough, to the point that he was slammed into Skuttlebutt, Bill's ship that was also travelling FTL in this instance. Meaning that Bill punched Surfer hard enough to travel FTL and Surfer was unharmed. This is impressive because Bill actually destroyed the Moon at some point and even KO'd Stardust who is ridiculously more durable than Bill himself as he didn't even feel a thunderclap from Galactus that one shotted Bill.

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Not good enough? Here is Surfer having enough time to think and then react before a nanosecond passes.

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Moving on...

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Not only does he recover from that in seconds. But he says the other League members would not have survived that attack AKA MMH, Power Girl, Wonder Woman and John Stewart are less durable than him.

I highly doubt it. It is him being concerned about them surviving or not. Billy even considers himself Superman's equal which is just not the case. And he didn't even tank it, his skin was totally destroyed and his muscles were torn apart. He just healed. Other members of the JLA (besides MMH) don't have a healing factor. Anyway, if the only feat preformed by Tesseract Bomb is tearing apart Billy's muscles, I am pretty sure John Stewart can survive it, even less MMH. Powergirl and Wonder Woman may die but they are so inferior to Bloodlusted Superman, to the point that Diana was one shotted by Clark from Sun to the Earth and Powergirl getting ragdolled by Diana because of her superior skill despite the fact that they are physically equal to each other.

Survives a bomb either 1,600,00,00,000 times more powerful than the atom bomb or 16 thousand followed by a million zeros times stronger (for a genius, Silvana should know sixteen thousand million is not a number) with no damage, the blast was so powerful that it rocked the entire world as Silvana says.

Average nuke has the force equal to 50 million tons. If that bomb is 16 billion times ("16 thousand million") stronger than the nuke, it means that that bomb's explosion is equal to the force of 800 Quadrillion tons. The problem is, the weight of the planet Earth is comparable to 6.6 sextillion tons, more than 8x greater than the force of the bomb Billy tanked. The reason why I'm comparing the weight to the force is because the force necessary to destroy an object is usually way larger than the force necessary to lift an object, which is comparable to object's weight, in this case, way larger than the force of the bomb. Earth is average sized planet and Surfer already casually destroyed a planet comparable in size, only to prove the point to Ravenous Annihilation: Silver Surfer #4

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Again, fact that the force to destroy an object/body is way greater than the weight/mass of an object, and how the mass of an average planet is already greater than the force of the bomb Billy tanked, I am confident when I say that Surfer has more than enough damage output to take down Billy, especially because he casually destroyed the planet.

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Billy can summon and spam lightning.

He hits KC Supes 3 times before getting caught in the next page (makes it 4). He was also fast enough to dodge his lightning while Supes wasn't.

You can't really argue Kingdom Come Shazam is faster than Kingdom Come Superman. Clark was trying to talk to him and make him stop fighting as seen at the start of the final issue of the series (seen on your scan as well, where Clark fires Heat Vision at him) while Billy was going for the kill as he was mind controlled by Lex Luthor as seen in Kingdom Come #3. Hell, Clark blitzed Billy to prevent him from dodging his lightning in Kingdom Come #4 despite the fact that not only Billy had a clear view on Clark, but Clark was already hit with multiple lightning bolts in a row, even tho he himself stated he is vulnerable (by "vulnerable" I mean doesn't have any physical defense against it) to magic in Kingdom Come #3. Hell, in the final issue (Kingdom Come #4), Billy was killed by a nuke created to kill all superhumans and the only one who survived was Superman and other heroes protected by Alan Scott who, based on his armor and the fortress he had in space, tapped into the power of Starheart which puts him on Skyfather level Kingdom Come #1. Meaning that even in Kingdom Come Universe, Superman is more powerful than Shazam.

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Following scans are from the issues mentioned above, all in a row...

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Similarities? Look at the end of Justice League of America Vol. 2 #45

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Plus, Kingdom Come Superman preformed feats like being so fast to the point that not even Jay Garrick could keep up with him or even see him. Kingdom Come Superman is also so fast, to the point that he was nanoseconds ahead of Pre-Flashpoint Superman. Which is impressive because Pre-Flashpoint Clark actually showed the ability to react and fight at FTL speed, which is means he was fighting in span less than nanosecond.

I just want to note that Superman isn't weak to magic, he just ist't resistant to it (like how Batman isn't weak to magic, he is just susceptible to it as well).

Yes I am aware of that. I said the same thing above when I mentioned Superman being affected by magic.

Billy can share his power.

In the New 52 this does not seem tonhave any effect on his powers (and no, if you think only the pure hearted can use the power uou'd be wrong, he shares his power with a tiger later the only problem is he didn'tt enchant him correctly).

So, when New 52 Shazam shares his powers with a single person, he won't lose 50% of his powers? Alright. Although, the two of you will have to make a strategy for that to work. You will be too occupied with Sersi and Surfer. Plus, would Billy and Atrocitus even decide to use that kind of tactic? I doubt it.

Billy can teleport.

Because they mistreat Billy in the N52, we only see Billy teleport away then in the next issue he is breaking a gun. The Wizard also tells Billy that he can get to Jupiter from the Rock of Eternity in the blink of an eye as well (scan if needed but the above should do).

I don't think he will use something like that in a fight and even if he does, it won't help him. Teleportation in combat is good for Nightclawer because he can instantly teleport from one point to the next in an instant while being ready to attack at the moment he teleports and teleports again. You have to master the ability to use teleportation in combat. For sake of the argument, Surfer has the ability to teleport as well but I'm not going to use that in my argument because Surfer doesn't use that in combat, at least not in an effective way.

He can also breath fire.

I don't see why that is relevant. Surfer was flying through a star before, when he wanted to to make Drax leave him alone for wanting to kill Thanos and know where he is even tho Surfer did not know, and Surfer was unharmed Silver Surfer Vol. 3 #37

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Afterwards he is just fine. Here is the next panel.

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He was also in a star when he gave Galactus that same star to consume, because he lost too much energy to just consume the planet. And Surfer didn't even feel the temperature Silver Surfer Vol. 6 #1

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Billy is above planetary in terms of strength.

I don't think that is a huge factor.

His striking is enough to 1 shot an amped Black Adam (unamped Adam hit Billy across the Earth, scans if needed).

I am pretty sure Surfer can tank that.

His speed is MFTL.

Only traveling speed. Reaction time speed and combat speed? Not even close based on what I have seen.

He can make Atrocitus as powerful as Captain Marvel Jr.

Again, will they use that kind of tactic? Do they even have time to do so considering the fact that you have to face Sersi and Surfer?

He has magic lightning and fire SS cannot manipulate.

That is not enough to even make Surfer blink. And may I ask, why Surfer won't be able to manipulate those energies? Because they are magical in nature? That is not enough to prove anything. Iron-man absorbed Thor's most powerful lightning more than once and even used it's energy to amp himself to higher levels, even his energy projection. Surfer can absorb way more energies than Iron-man and I'm not even gonna get into energy manipulation. Silver Surfer is a top tier energy manipulator. He stopped an energy attack from Revenous without moving an inch Annihilation: Silver Surfer #4

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He also drained the Gamma Radiation from the Hulk, turning him back into Bruce Banner, despite the fact that The Hulk was inraged in this instance. Add to the fact that Surfer blocked his strike without any effort Incredible Hulk Vol. 1 #250

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How durable are SS and Sersi?

How is Surfer's magic resistance?

I already showed how durable he is and Surfer does not need resistance to magic. He already tanked way more than Billy's lightning and fire can bring to the table.

Strategy coming next post after you (hopefully) answer those questions.

Already did. And I'll make the strategy next round when I'm done with Atrocitus, look at my teammate's strategy, show more abilities Surfer has and decide how am I gonna use those abilities (AKA huge level of versatility and hax) to help Sersi. That being said...

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My Opener

Not gonna get into stuff you said in your post that I disagree with because I want everyone to begin with their argument, including your teammate. For now I'm just gonna mention what Surfer is capable of based on what I showed...

  • Surfer can easily hold his own and overpower people with planetary strength.
  • He can tank blows and attacks from Heralds, Teambusters, Skyfathers and above.
  • He is the most durable guy here and can surf through a star for fun.
  • Surfer is the fastest guy here. He can react in span less than a nanosecond.
  • Surfer's energy manipulation and absorption are top tier. He can casually blow up planets.
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#48 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

Cool, post is up.

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#50 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: Uh, you rebut what I say (though they weren't aimed at anyone because I wasn't really aiming on a stat debate). But you then you say "Not gonna get into stuff you said in your post that I disagree with because I want everyone to begin with their argument." Does that mean you have more rebuttals for me or something?