MCU/DCEU bias, fairness and consistency in scaling.

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death4bunnies

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#1  Edited By death4bunnies  Online

I think there is a fair amount salt and bias of both sides; but what are we really doing here guys? Just discussing some fictional characters and how it would go down if they fought right?

Id just like us to develop, or I guess have it explained to me, how exactly we should go about making the vine a bit more fair, with consistent standards on things like scaling.

Here is a example (definitely not the only time things like this come up, but I have these gifs and think its a good example so lets use this as our test case)

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MCU Spiderman vs DCEU Wonder Woman in strength.

A lot of people scale Diana directly to Kryptonains, but completely dismiss Spiderman scaling to Giantman, Cull, and Thanos.

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WonderWomans Kryptonian scaling feats are...

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Stopped a blow from DD with her sword. ^^

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Tied up DD with her lasso.^

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Headbutted Superman.^

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Spidermans Thanos and Cull scaling feats are..

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Staggering Thanos 3 times...if you look SM grabs Thanos but the head and bends him over with that second hit... I dont know how you can say Diana 'staggered' superman with her head butt, but SM didnt stagger Thanos 3 times.

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Spiderman pulls thanos arm down and takes a clothesline. ^^

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Spiderman directly overpowers Cull. ^^ (Blocking with a sword is perfect scaling, while SM blocking with his bare hands is not scaling at all; according to some)

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Spiderman directly overpowers Cull again.(That it was controversial in IW and they had him do it in the next movie speaks volumes imo)

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I mean honestly people dont even accept that Spiderman staggered Giantman here, but call Diana slightly moving Supermans head staggered.

I just dont know why Dianas scaling would be considered legit but SMs scaling wouldnt.

It cant be there performances in solo movies, his lifting feats outside of scaling are much better than hers.

It cant be Superman/Thanos consistency, both have there PIS moments, Superman hit Batman for goodness sake.

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I just think it would be more fun if we all debated with a consistent standard in regard to things like feats and scaling, and what we consider staggered.

No Caption Provided

I just dont know how you could call the headbutt staggered, and the SM punches not staggered.

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If there are any hard and fast rules you think should be applied to scaling let us know.

I know there will be the urge to troll on this thread, but for the good of this hobby of ours, and to keep having fun; can we just have a polite discussion on what constitutes scaling, and when it should be used... I think we can all do a bit better (myself included); maybe that can start here.

Respectfully,

D4B

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geekryan

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#3  Edited By geekryan

Unfortunately, bias will always be a thing. It can’t be eradicated, especially on an online comics forum.

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achillesspawn

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Agreed

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YoungJustice

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I agree.

I'd also like to use this thread as an opportunity to say that scaling as a general concept is absolutely stupid in most cases. A fair majority of people making superhero content are not taking scaling into account when writing out the scripts for these films/shows. They're just trying to make cool fight scenes.

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KingLouie

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WW Doomsday feats are PIS she’s been WAY down from that point forward and hasn’t been consistent (unless it’s been Magic based).

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deactivated-6156f1d2abe5e

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@death4bunnies:

Speaking of scaling i accept feats like character A is capable of damaging character B ( with visual injuries or statement like how something hurts or "nobody has hitted me like this before" ).

Seeing that random character ( consistently street building lvl ) can take attack from planetary-solar system being is a bit retarded to powerscale. This is why youtubers like that guy suck:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCG-TkX01zYnAjGfituAOQyg/videos

Will you believe Stormbreaker is casually universal after that "6 gems beams overpowering" feat ? In same movie it was meltable by 50 000 K neutron star radiation. It is even unknown how much energy did thanos output toward that beam ( or hax ).

Hate to mention Dark Doctor Supreme, but if you instantly fails to hold 10^-78 of universe's remnants using mirror dimension BFR escaping it is not that impressive compared to let say TVA resetting/BFRing the timeline by that pruning machine or Supergirl slowing down for 6-7 minutes antimatter wave exotic state which was much bigger ( on map and visually ) than whole solar system/galaxy devouring all of infinite timelines across expanse of time and forces of universe 🤷‍♂️. I don't think Dark Doctor could hold his own against TVA if can't stop that collapse

I could say that Aquaman is more powerful than Superman when Arthur could truly harm Steppenwolf compared to Superman ( well i admit submarine feats surpasses Superman but why Superman was superior by showings and statements ?! )

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JediSympathiz3r

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Iron Spider should be >>> Regular Spidey physically considering how strong IM is with his suits.

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SupremeKilla010

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That WW feats is kinda of irrelevant since we've seen Doomsday overpower her multiple times also scaling will always be inconsistent in movies.

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KryptonianKing88

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WW's DD would require her to be stronger than DD since she's countering his force over a distance. It's an outlier. But I think by intent she can scale to pre-JL Superman.

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death4bunnies

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#14 death4bunnies  Online
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LordTwigo

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Such scaling would also apply to MCU black panther due to knocking down cull obsidian and manhandling captain america, who can in turn could briefly hold back Thanos

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DrRobert

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#16  Edited By DrRobert

This is why I argued MCU Spider-Man to be above DCEU Superman and even Routh Supes...

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Alphamon

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#17  Edited By Alphamon

Peter scaling to cull or thanos is either an outlier or has some context to it. The Giant man thing is fine though

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Power_Hunter

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death4bunnies

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#19 death4bunnies  Online

@alphamon said:

Peter scaling to cull or thanos is either an outlier or has some context to it. The Giant man thing is fine though

He overpowered Cull twice, first with regular suit in IE, second with Iron Spider in EG.. and his feats against Thanos were with Ironspider.

What do you think of Diana’s scaling outlined in OP, would you consider those outliers also?

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Power_Hunter

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The thing is that Cull should scale in strength to the Hulkbuster, which is as strong as Hulk, and Hulk is a 100.000s tonner(as shown in Ragnarok[Surtur feat], who shouldn't be much different powerwise to AoU Hulk(remember even Proffesor Hulk was able to perform a massive feat holding the Avengers HQ).

And it's inconsistent to scale Spider-Man to that as he was struggling to lift a 1k ton tower or a roof that fell on him. He is also hurt by bullets or a bullet train and if he really was a 10k tonner(or above) his durability would be way above that(I know that WW is also hurt by bullets by that's just a stupid thing from comics).

However, as far as I know, WW doesn't have any anti-feat after the events of BvS so we can't really consider his feats against Doomsday inconsistent(her overpowering Doomsday's arm is an outlier tho).

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Alphamon

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@death4bunnies:

still an outlier for the first one, he caught him by surprise plus that dosen’t really make it anymore constant considering it’s arguable that Peter is even that strong in base. his feats agianst thanos aren’t really impressive considering three of the times Peter caught him by surprise especially when weaker charcters like nebula and arguably drax have done the same thing plus chin sack was holding back through out the majority of IW

Loading Video...

(1:08)

that depends on if you believe Clark was amped after his resurrection

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death4bunnies

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#22 death4bunnies  Online

The thing is that Cull should scale in strength to the Hulkbuster, which is as strong as Hulk, and Hulk is a 100.000s tonner(as shown in Ragnarok[Surtur feat], who shouldn't be much different powerwise to AoU Hulk(remember even Proffesor Hulk was able to perform a massive feat holding the Avengers HQ).

And it's inconsistent to scale Spider-Man to that as he was struggling to lift a 1k ton tower or a roof that fell on him. He is also hurt by bullets or a bullet train and if he really was a 10k tonner(or above) his durability would be way above that(I know that WW is also hurt by bullets by that's just a stupid thing from comics).

However, as far as I know, WW doesn't have any anti-feat after the events of BvS so we can't really consider his feats against Doomsday inconsistent(her overpowering Doomsday's arm is an outlier tho).

I hate to be that guy.. and people who know me know I dont bring up these feats as they are extreme lowends imo.... But WW definitely has anti feats post BVS.

Ill just put a few under the spoiler block.

I again want to make it clear that I do not consider this her level... Im just responding to the idea she doesnt have lowends.

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Diana is near KOd by parademon.

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Diana is rocked by a human.

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Diana takes 30 seconds to move 2 tons of rubble...letting cyborg get ripped in half in the meantime.

There are a few more, like being saved from the knight crawler...but I think thats plenty, I feel icky for even mentioning these.

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Id ask you what you think about their standalone feats.

You mentioned the tower and the ferry and a few other spiderman feats..

Can I ask why you think those are so low, when Diana doesnt any have non scaling feats near that.

Like compare Dianas whole strength section from her RT to strength Spiderman feats.

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Here is a link to her RT.

https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/7yjuqk/respect_diana_wonder_woman_dc_extended_universe/

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Her best non scaling lift ever is the 29 ton WW1 tank.. the weight is listed in that linked RT.

SM blows that out of the water with his tower lift, and ferry feat, and rubble lift.

He even beats Dianas best non scaling lift with his casual feats, like when Tony showed him catch a 3000 lbs car going 40 thats a 30 ton impact on crash calculators, or when he pulled over a crane 100 tons, or when he lifted a car 100 feet in the air with one hand at high speeds, or threw giant boulders...these are all at or above 30 tons.

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Can we agree they both have lowends that would dispute the scaling, and that Spiderman has better stand alone (non scaling) strength feats?

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deactivated-615075e6f3ef7

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This is great.

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JComics2000

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Power_Hunter

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@death4bunnies:

I didn't list low ends tho, I think the ferry, tower and lifting that roof is Peter's consistent strength. What you listed are extremely low ends. It's like if I try to make an argument out of that scene of Thor having his head moved by a Jane Foster's slap. It would be ridiculous.

And I think Diana just hasn't had the opportunity to perform any impressive, quantificable strength feat. If sometimes she fails doing so, I will re-think my view on the character.

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death4bunnies

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#26  Edited By death4bunnies  Online
@alphamon said:

@death4bunnies:

still an outlier for the first one, he caught him by surprise plus that dosen’t really make it anymore constant considering it’s arguable that Peter is even that strong in base. his feats agianst thanos aren’t really impressive considering three of the times Peter caught him by surprise especially when weaker charcters like nebula and arguably drax have done the same thing plus chin sack was holding back through out the majority of IW

(1:08)

that depends on if you believe Clark was amped after his resurrection

Him catching Cull by surprise shouldn't change the strength needed.

Loading Video...

Cull was delivering a jumping blow to IM, surprise doesnt change the fact that he was stopped dead in his tracks from a jumping blow.

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I dont think Nebula and Drax quite worked Thanos like Spiderman did, like spiderman grabs Thanos by the head and completely bends him over. Three hits seems better than one.

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Again I understand Thanos has some inconsistencies.. but so does Superman… I try not to use antifeats, but they exist for both.

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Batman.

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And Bullets move him about as much as Dianas headbutt.

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I fail to see how thats anymore consistent.

Can we agree if one scales they probably both scale?

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death4bunnies

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#27 death4bunnies  Online

@death4bunnies:

I didn't list low ends tho, I think the ferry, tower and lifting that roof is Peter's consistent strength. What you listed are extremely low ends. It's like if I try to make an argument out of that scene of Thor having his head moved by a Jane Foster's slap. It would be ridiculous.

And I think Diana just hasn't had the opportunity to perform any impressive, quantificable strength feat. If sometimes she fails doing so, I will re-think my view on the character.

Shes had 4 movies to get impressive strength feats, and she struggled with a lot less than spiderman snuggled with.

Id say being trapped under rubble while Cyborg gets ripped in half is failing to perform a impressive quantifiable strength feat... but fair enough I suppose.

We do agree that SM has the better stand alone feats tho right?? Even if we disagree about who scales better.

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BESTINTHEWORLD

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BESTINTHEWORLD

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The funniest thin about mcu fans is that they think lowballing is debating and that it only exists in other universes and only should be allowed fr mcu fans to exploit. No one bothers mentioing thor getting kod by bullets in threads no one mentioned hulk being hurt by 50 cal bullets in threads...you know the same calibor dceu superman tanked twice......yet what do you see every thread? Not only do you people lowbal you liw and take it beyond lowbvalling you just lie...clar knocked out by bullets hes trash....every feat he has should be ignored

do people bring up thor getting slapped every mcu thread? do mcu fans?
do people bring up thor getting slapped every mcu thread? do mcu fans?
do the people claiming he tanks stars mentioned he was kod by ship turbulence
do the people claiming he tanks stars mentioned he was kod by ship turbulence
Its funny because this was made specifically to cage and kill thor.....do mcu fans except it? HE TANKS MOUNTAINS IVE SEEN IT MY DREAMS!!!!!!! BIOFROST BIOFROST
Its funny because this was made specifically to cage and kill thor.....do mcu fans except it? HE TANKS MOUNTAINS IVE SEEN IT MY DREAMS!!!!!!! BIOFROST BIOFROST

enjoy your bait bunny.

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death4bunnies

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#30  Edited By death4bunnies  Online

@bestintheworld:

I’m not baiting , I’m simply asking for some consistency in the way we scale characters.. I didn’t bring up low ends or inconsistencies, others did then claimed DCEU doesn’t have them, I responded with some gifs and said I don’t like using lowends.. I specifically said I don’t use these anti feats in debate… and I said in the OP I could be better to.

Just trying to have a polite conversation about scaling here bud.

Can I extend a olive branch here, like I said it’s just talking about fictional characters no need for us to be salty at eachother.

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Alphamon

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#31  Edited By Alphamon

@death4bunnies: wasn’t talking about infinity war cull

Spider-man only got those hits in with the assistant of strange. I don’t see how taking him by surprise and bending him over(lol) is supposed to be impressive

eh, it’s arguable on how bloodlusted whedon Clark was considering he took the time to choke Bruce out and do the whole “do you bleed” reversal line

Clark was also taken by surprise by the military considering not to long later he completely no sells the same

Loading Video...

(2:18)

I guess, I mean I’m kinda 50/50 with Diana and I don’t believe Peter scales at all so eh.

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death4bunnies

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#32 death4bunnies  Online

@alphamon:

You don’t even think Pete scales to Cull?

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Alphamon

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#33  Edited By Alphamon
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AllHellKingDox

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@death4bunnies: but moving Thanos should not be a feat of scaling. Cap has moved Thanos and was shown to be a mild nuisance, Clark hitting Batman is not piss because we know Superman is not a murderer by default even in BVS he said “iF I wanted you’d be dead already” implying he holding back a lot, Thanos he has no problems with killing people even if it was not by his intent (Vision)

Also MCU just has bad power scaling especially under the russos, Wanda be pressed by proxima midnight yet defeating Thanos 1vs1, Thanos absolutely destroying the Hulk with utter ease, yet having problems with tony even with the gaunlet same Tony he was getting destroyed by cull, captain America surviving punches from Thanos and putting up a better fight Than Thor smh.

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KryptonianKing88

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@kryptonianking88:

What do you think about SMs scaling?

Outliers + staggering a distracted Thanos which has been accomplished by everyone from Peter Quill to Hulk.

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death4bunnies

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#36 death4bunnies  Online

@allhellkingdox:

Idk man, I see no reason to think Superman wasn’t out it his mind, no a reason he’d think Batman would survive being ragdolled 100 feet into a cop car… Superman his everyone in that fight, Aquaman, Diana, Flash, Cyborg, and Batman… I honeslty don’t know how that more consistent than Thanos.

I don’t think the MCU has bad power scaling, it has inconsistencies like every other verse.

Seems wrong to just dismiss all MCU scaling.

Especially things like Spider-Man > Cull as it happened in 2 movies…with direct strength comparisons.

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death4bunnies

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#37 death4bunnies  Online

@death4bunnies said:

@kryptonianking88:

What do you think about SMs scaling?

Outliers + staggering a distracted Thanos which has been accomplished by everyone from Peter Quill to Hulk.

And moving Supermans head has been accomplished by everything from bullets to Ibeams...And he hit batman... Both Thanos and Superman have there inconsistencies.

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I dont know how you can said this about Diana, but not say the same about Spiderman.

WW's DD would require her to be stronger than DD since she's countering his force over a distance. It's an outlier. But I think by intent she can scale to pre-JL Superman.

Would Spiderman catching Culls jumping hammer blow not require strength, would bending Thanos over by the head not require strength.

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I guess if you think both SM to Thanos and Cull, and Diana to DD are outliers thats fair tho.

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On the intent side the Russos did say they think SM is almost as strong as the Hulk, is there a statement about Diana being almost as strong as a kryptonain... or I guess I should ask why do you think she has better intent to scale to krytpoanians??

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KryptonianKing88

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@death4bunnies:

Would Spiderman catching Culls jumping hammer blow not require strength, would bending Thanos over by the head not require strength.

Yes, Yes, but it doesn't scale to Thanos's full strength

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I guess if you think both SM to Thanos and Cull, and Diana to DD are outliers thats fair tho.

----

On the intent side the Russos did say they think SM is almost as strong as the Hulk, is there a statement about Diana being almost as strong as a kryptonain... or I guess I should ask why do you think she has better intent to scale to krytpoanians??

Just overall portrayal. She could take hits (albeit shielded) and briefly restrain him.

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AllHellKingDox

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@death4bunnies: it was nowhere near 100 feet it was a casual back hand Superman and other kryptonians know how to handle a human without destroying them casual we saw Namek pop a man with otter ease.

Clark was just confused he was not bloodlusted hence why he didn’t just fry the soldiers who were shooting at him, Clark was toying with them and he saw they’re anatomy he knew to be careful not to kill them, Thanos on the other hand is no as careful, also MCU has way more inconsistencies than the DCEU granted that’s a lot because he MCU has an abundance of directors and more movies but still.

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frozen

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#40 frozen  Moderator

OP raises a point. Though I disagree in aspects the gist is right. That said I do thjnk WW with gear wrecks Spidey.

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Eredin12

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I agree

That is why I always said that Spidey and WW is a decent fight personally.

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geekryan

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@frozen said:

OP raises a point. Though I disagree in aspects the gist is right. That said I do thjnk WW with gear wrecks Spidey.

Agreed.

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StahlMaulTall

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@allhellkingdox: Clark was 100% holding back against the League, no doubt about it. People try to use Arthur taking a punch from Clark as a good durability feat, as if Clark was going all out, but he clearly pulled his punch like when he backhanded Batman into the side of the car. Nobody with any sense tries to argue that Batman has incredible durability because he took that hit from Clark, yet the Aquaman threads all cite the Superman punch as a legit feat. The same goes for Cyborg blocking Clark’s heat vision, especially after the Snyder Cut and the whole 3.5 million kelvin heat vision nonsense. Heat vision is not all at the same intensity and the heat vision used against Cyborg is not automatically 3.5 million kelvin just because it makes Victor seem more impressive.

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Edgelord91

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#46 Edgelord91  Online

@bestintheworld: that cage was meant for hulk not Thor and Bruce implies it wouldn’t work which is somewhat proven by him surviving the following fall

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thanosii

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If scaling works for Diana it should work for Spiderman. Personally I think Spiderman just had better days overall.

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Johndeyvido

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Neither Diana nor Peter is scalable to DD and Hulk respectively but both sides don't want to see the truth...

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death4bunnies

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#49 death4bunnies  Online

Neither Diana nor Peter is scalable to DD and Hulk respectively but both sides don't want to see the truth...

I’m fine with doing scaling for both or neither.. it’s the inconsistent scaling standards that I have a problem with.