MCU: Wanda & Vision vs. Thor - All Bloodlusted

1. Density manipulation, phasing, and intangibility are very synonymous terms. Vision has phased through walls and attacks, i.e. phased.

2. He couldn't break out of the taser trap until he destroyed it, but he didn't enter the trap in a phased state, so there's nothing to suggest that he could be affected while actually phased.

@bladeoffury: Why would you say that? Thanos legit didn't know Thor was there and was going for the IG

This time, Thanos actually turns his head and sees the lightning

I think you know this is a clear time Thor should have used lightning, but I'll try to go over this later

1. I should have said, "He does not become intangible..." instead of "he does not phase." Phasing is an action, similar to moving. Just because you are moving it does not mean you are running, you can walk or crawl. Similarly, phasing through matter can be done in multiple ways. Flash vibrates his molecules to match the frequency of matter, called quantum tunneling. Miss Martian in Young Justice density shifts. When an enemy altered the density of a wall she was trying to phase through she got stuck. If she phased the same way Flash does this would not have worked. Vision's density is variable. We see manipulate it in Civil War, he also uses this technique to phase through matter. Since his matter is still present it still interacts with anything that touches it. This includes directed energy.

Edit: If something is truly intangible, it is impossible for anything else to physically interact with it.

2.

He may not have entered in a low density state but we can see that he becomes partially see-through, indicating that he is trying to phase. He either can not shift through energy attacks or electricity inhibits him from doing it properly. Either way it incapacitates him and that makes Thor his worst nightmare.

@xzone: Why you think so EG lighting strikes are weaker? Thor's lighting powered 8 IM repulsors and Rescue was badly damaging Leviathan with just two.

Also, what's so impressive with the Bifrost strike?

@TheGrat1 said:

@geekryan said:

@TheGrat1 said:

@o0deadman0o said:

Can thor harm Vis when he's phased?

1. Vision does not phase, he density shifts.

2. He could not escape Hawkeye's tasers until he dstroyed the arrow with his beam. That tells me he can not shift through energy attacks. So yes, there is nothing he can do to stop Thor from owning him with lightning.

1. Density manipulation, phasing, and intangibility are very synonymous terms. Vision has phased through walls and attacks, i.e. phased.

2. He couldn't break out of the taser trap until he destroyed it, but he didn't enter the trap in a phased state, so there's nothing to suggest that he could be affected while actually phased.

1. I should have said, "He does not become intangible..." instead of "he does not phase." Phasing is an action, similar to moving. Just because you are moving it does not mean you are running, you can walk or crawl. Similarly, phasing through matter can be done in multiple ways. Flash vibrates his molecules to match the frequency of matter, called quantum tunneling. Miss Martian in Young Justice density shifts. When an enemy altered the density of a wall she was trying to phase through she got stuck. If she phased the same way Flash does this would not have worked. Vision's density is variable. We see manipulate it in Civil War, he also uses this technique to phase through matter. Since his matter is still present it still interacts with anything that touches it. This includes directed energy.

2.

He may not have entered in a low density state but we can see that he becomes partially see-through, indicating that he is trying to phase. He either can not shift through energy attacks or electricity inhibits him from doing it properly. Either way it incapacitates him and that makes Thor his worst nightmare.

1. There's no indication that lightning could affect him while he is phased

2. He was electrocuted, and then tried to phase out of it. If he started off phased, it might not have worked on him. It's also very likely that Clint had this sort of taser trap arrow designed specifically for Vision, so we can't generalize it to Thor's lightning.

@supremegeneration: What's your opinion on Tony stating Thor is normally the strongest avenger?

Doesn't matter. The truth still is that EG Thor had the same powerset as IW. Only difference was his confidence was low, and he was fat, hence perhaps a little less agile.

Nothing more.

I'm sick and tired of how people around here cling to feats as if that was all there was. Logic is thrown aside. Lineal thought is dismissed.

Sure. Thor didn't fly in EG so that translates to "he can't fly".

He chose to fight hand to hand, so that means that he can't summon lightning anymore.

It's so dumb it makes me want to throw my computer out the window.

When did he change his mind?

@buckwheat: It's not that he fought h2h. Thor's always done that, but since Ragnarok he added in lightning to his h2h which gave him an advantage, and it's not like lightning wouldn't work for a combo

Because Cap, who can't summon lightning as easily as Thor nearly accomplished one

Bloodlusted Thor might one-shot them. His lightning is more powerful than Scarlet Witch's TK projections. The only problem is Vision's intangibility, but Thor's lightning might bypass that or disrupt it.

How? In IW, Thor at his prime unleashed a lightning blast against Thanos and all it did was push him back. Thanos immediately recovered with no visible injuries.

Wanda was straight-up killing Thanos with no chance of him fighting out of her TK. In IW, she also held him back for an extended period of time while killing Vision, so at 50% power.

How was she killing him? All she did was was break his armor and keep him suspended and unable to fight. Not that that's not impressive or anything but Thor's lightning has way better feats than that, especially with Mjolnir.

Never give up, never surrender, Thor fans.

@kinglouie:

Why not? She got beaten by "rain fire." A blast landed right next to Bucky and did not kill him. Pretty sure Thor is at least close to that.

What? So Thanos called in an airstrike on his own army, out of desperation, just because his armour was being destroyed...?

You realize how little sense that makes right? Wanda was clearly killing him. He was in pain and grunting.

Wanda performed significantly better against Thanos than the entire Trinity did before.

Not only that, but:

Marvel Studios President Kevin Feige himself believes Scarlet Witch could have taken down Thanos: "Wanda Maximoff, who is probably near the upper echelons of power -- I contend she would have taken down Thanos if he hadn’t called the [army], it was done..."

So we have a statement from the President of Marvel Studios to back it up.

None of Thor's lightning feats are stronger than what Wanda has shown. Owning Thanos, destroying his sword and armour (which the Trinity couldn't even damage), holding him off with half her power while destroying an Infinity Stone, lifting a Leviathan, BFRing Vision, etc.

@geekryan: Why can't Thor simply call down lightning when she has him trapped?

So the fact that he tried and failed means nothing to you? If he had been in low density mode the whole time he would have walked through the electricity? Is that what you are saying? Why would that make any difference? Like I said: He density shifts. He is not truly intangible. His body is still there it is just like trying to hit smoke. No reason to believe why lightning, which is an electric discharge with next to no density itself, would be incapable of interacting with him.

Never said he couldn't.

@geekryan: Oh, I thought her TK was your main reason for Thor losing here

I think Wanda vs Thor is debatable, but I would personally go with Wanda. Wanda & Vision would beat Thor IMO.

She incapacitated him, which put him in great danger, considering the battlefield. Whether she was killing him is unclear.

I can't say much about director statements, but I believe there was also a statement where it was said that Captain America's final strike with Mjolnir was supposed to be a finisher, but Thanos ducked it. Lets also not forget how IW Thor did the most damage to Thanos not to mention his strength with Stormbreaker allows him to casually bypass Thanos' durability whereas SW' suspension didn't even leave Thanos wounded afterward.

I would think destroying a city and gigantic land structures would be a much better feat than what Wanda has pulled off.

Thor can win, but will he be careful enough to pull it off? Lightning definitely is highly effective against either on the team. But the infinity stone powers can also mess Thor up, and there's two of them to deal with. Thor probably wins if he abuses lightning powers and probably loses of he tries to mainly engage in cqc.

Thor Beats the fodder

@supremegeneration:

Again, this man is a god and future king. Fat isn't exactly what you want to look like. Maybe she wants him to have a little self-respect.

Odin, Frigga's HUSBAND, literally has a fat belly too. It's not a disqualification for being Asgard's ruler.

Not to mention that EG Thor has zero interest in being a king anymore. He explicitly rejects the throne at the end of the movie, which was the direct result of Frigga telling him to be who he is and not who he's been raised to be.

If Thor isn't going to be king, then what other reason does Frigga have to want him to lose weight? Again, is it just because she's worried that he won't be able to woo Jane or Sif again?

No, I stated multiple times that I was only harping on about your point with the salad. I explicitly stated that as a reader and not an arguer I could get behind some of your other points,

So, for the 10 billionth time, can you comment on what I said about Tony explicitly stating that while Thor is "normally" the strongest Avenger, this is no longer the case due to his weight?

It doesn't need to be, since Wanda is not very durable, so if lightinig strikes her, she is out.

@xzone:It's not that he fought h2h. Thor's always done that, but since Ragnarok he added in lightning to his h2h which gave him an advantage, and it's not like lightning wouldn't work for a combo

But the fact that he didn't use lighting in EG (although he did) does not translate in him not been able to do it.

It defies his backstory and the origin of his powers. Thor is a 1000 year old warrior with magical powers that do not depend on his physical muscles.

To say that been oeverweigh makes him loose the ability to summon lighting is incoherent to everything Thor is.

Wanda uses Vision as a human shield then she stomps him

@xzone: why do you believe that?

@scipio123: "OK then. Let's accept (for argument's sake) that being fat doesn't inhibit Thor's fighting potential. Why would Frigga care about him being fat if this is the case? If Thor can protect the universe just as effectively with a beer belly as without, then what reason does she have to tell him to eat more healthily?"

It was a joke made for the audience. A fat joke. It doesn't imply much more.

Why on earth would a bit of belly fat take away Thor's powers??? That literally makes no sense.

1. She was clearly going to kill him. She destroyed his sword, was ripping apart his armour, and causing him a lot of pain. To the point he had to call in an airstrike on his own army in order to be saved. She was going to rip him apart. I don't see how anyone could interpret that differently, it's pretty clear-cut.

2. We see on-screen that she was killing Thanos and then the President of Marvel Studios backed it up. You can't refute that without any concrete evidence of your own.

3. IW Thor did damage to Thanos with Stormbreaker, not with lightning. We are discussing Thor's lightning vs. Wanda's TK.

4. There's no indication that Thanos wasn't wounded or weakened in any way. She broke his sword and armour (which Thor, Iron Man, and Cap w/ Mjolnir were unable to do***) and was causing him a large amount of pain based on his screaming and facial expressions.

5. Thor didn't destroy the city by himself, he had Iron Man's help to do that by using Ultron's machine. And I don't know what "gigantic land structures" you are referring to.

***except for Cap damaging his helmet after multiple strikes with Mjolnir and then Thanos tearing the helmet off

@geekryan: Uh... Cap broke Thanos' helmet, and Wanda barely broke Thanos' weapon

She broke it enough that he couldn't use it again...

Cap damaged it after multiple strikes and then Thanos ripped it off.

@geekryan: He broke it to the point where it fell apart when Thanos took it off, and Thanos used his weapon again later

Bruh, Thanos clearly exerted Force to rip the helmet off. Not to mention wanda broke the sword (which has better feats), sent it flying as well as pushed Thanos back against his full weight & strength.
thor, cap w/thors powers didn’t do anything close

Wanda literally tore Thanos' sword in half.

@anthp2000: I don't recall that, but perhaps I'm wrong

@xzone: one side of the blade is snapped more or less in half which is what I think they meant.

@anthp2000: Iirc, the sword was still usable later on to destroy the van. Wanda only chipped it. Still impressive but not enough to say Thor would be easily destroyed. He has comparable or more energy resistance than his own hammers which have shown more energy resistance than the sword.

I suppose. It's an impressive feat

@xzone: Thanos exerted force to tear off the helmet, so no.

And he literally only used what was left of his sword to toss it at the van. He didn’t use it as a weapon again because it was broken.

@finalkingthanos:

If you think that small piece that got chipped off counts as half, you need some help with proportions.

The sword was still like 90% intact.

@geekryan:

And he literally only used what was left of his sword to toss it at the van. He didn’t use it as a weapon again because it was broken.

Except most of the sword was still intact. Wanda managed knock a piece of it off, but it was definitely still usable. And we didn't see Thanos fight anyone in CQC again until after the sword was destroyed. But we do see him running at Captain Marvel with it, clearly intending to use it against her:

(0:08)

The fact that he was able to use it effectively as a javelin to destroy the van also proves that it was still functional.

@geekryan:

And I don't know what "gigantic land structures" you are referring to.

Try watching some of the other MCU movies besides EG. You'll be amazed by what you'll find!

@scipio123: