MCU vs DCEU vs FOX tourney Subline+Eri123 (MCU) vs Payne+BoF (Fox)

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#1 Posted by APEX_pretador (21469 posts) - - Show Bio

Now next in round 2 we have:

Team MCU:

MCU Thor and Adriach Killian
MCU Thor and Adriach Killian

Represented by Subline

Perks: (all apply to Thor)

  • Nightcrawlers teleportation 4
  • Spidey Sense (tobey/garfield) 2
  • Black Panther's suit 4

And his partner Eri123, representing:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
MCU Hela and Ghost

Perks:

  • 5 minutes of prep at home(1 point)
  • 15 minutes prep on battlefield(1 point)
  • one character point(2 points)
  • Full knowledge(6 points)

Facing off against team FOX

Apocalypse, Vanisher and Magneto (FOX)
Apocalypse, Vanisher and Magneto (FOX)

Represented by Bladeoffury (Vanisher and Apocalypse), and PayneintheAss (Magneto)

Perks:

  • Prep Negation
  • BP's suit (Magneto)
  • Mach 1 flight reaction and combat speed (Magneto)

Rules:

  • This is a CaV between Subline+Eri123 and Bladeoffury+Payneintheass. So the debate remains between them. Please do not interfere between them.
  • You can ask to be tagged for votes though, and you can vote after the debate is over. Remember, you should vote for the debater who convinced that their team will win based on the evidence provided in the debate. Don't simply vote for who you think should win.
  • If a vote looks biased, we might not count it.

Battle rules:

  • The fight takes place in middle of abandoned sokovia, 500 m above the ground height. It is magically levitating just there and will stay there. There is no vibrainum spire or thrusters in it.
  • Win by any means.
  • Teams start 30 m away from opponents and 5 m away from partner team

BFR Rules: (All characters aware of the rules)

  • BFR can be used as last resort.
  • BFR is only valid when the character is able to return to battlefield if given a few days. It only counts as win if all other members of the team are eliminated and the BFR'd members are unable to return in 20 minutes.
  • If someone is BFR'd to somewhere where they cannot return from (like mirror dimension), they will be magically returned in 3 minutes back to battlefield 30m away from opponents.

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#2 Posted by APEX_pretador (21469 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by eri123 (5282 posts) - - Show Bio

@apex_pretador: What version of Magneto is this?

Also are all the characters in the same battlefield fighting together?

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#4 Posted by APEX_pretador (21469 posts) - - Show Bio

@eri123 said:

@apex_pretador: What version of Magneto is this?

Basically composite but not counting planetary amp.

Also are all the characters in the same battlefield fighting together?

yes that's a 2v2

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#5 Posted by JSDoctor (1722 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP

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#6 Posted by ANTHP2000 (30449 posts) - - Show Bio

Goddamn with Hela being in the tourney.

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#7 Posted by PayneInTheAss (12478 posts) - - Show Bio

Cool, that´s actually a Mags/Apoc pic I made for a thread

Looks like a strong match.

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#8 Posted by eri123 (5282 posts) - - Show Bio

Who is going to start first?

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#9 Posted by eri123 (5282 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

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#10 Posted by PayneInTheAss (12478 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by APEX_pretador (21469 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by eri123 (5282 posts) - - Show Bio
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Perks:

Thor:

Black Panther suit,Spider Sense and Nightcrawler teleportation.

Adrian:

None

Hela and Ghost:

Full knowledge and one character point which allows me to add Ghost to my team.

My prep perks are all gone because of your own perk,

Some things about Hela:

Hela contructs are made out of magically enhanced obsidian,this includes her helmet since she can summon it like her blades.This was comfirmed on the Marvel Visual Dictionary.

Because of this Magneto can't effect or sense Hela's contructs because:

1.They are obsidian which isn't metal.

2.They are magic.

So the only way for Magneto to do anything to Hela is to throw metal from the environment around him,but looking at Hela's durability and healing factor it's unlikely Hela will be hurt.Maybe Magneto can conjure all the metal in the city and throw them at Hela and Thor but that will take too long and both of my characters won't let him do that.

Gameplan:

With full knowledge Hela and Ghost know everything about your characters,their powers,how they work etc.

-At the start of the battle Ghost will go intangible,meaning my enemies can't effect her and she can one shot all three of them with phasing

-Hela on the other hand will summon spikes from the beneath the ground at Magneto,Apoc and Vanisher all three going for their heads.

Magneto will be knocked unconscious by the force,allowing Thor to teleport and hit him with Stormbreaker.The latter scales to Thanos's sword which managed to cut Vibranium.Even if Magneto manages to fly away before he gets hit Thor is going to give him hell with his teleportation while Hela sits back shooting spaming swords at him.However that is unlikely since he can't sense the spikes.

Ghost is invisible waiting for the right moment to catch Magneto by suprise.

Vanisher dies instantly,even if he teleports it's useless,he can't do anything.He is the weakest character here by far.

Apocalypse brain will be destroyed,he hasn't shown the feats to heal from something like this.

Now you might say Apocalypse will be the first to use his powers,since he reacted to Quicksilver.However that's not true.Quicksilver was blitzing him before he reflexes adapted,something like that,which allowed Apoc to catch him.

And another thing is that Apocalypse powers are activated after his eyes are turned fully white,which takes 1 second,that is enough for Hela to summon her spike.

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Conclusion

Full knowledge will be a huge advantage in this battle, it will allow our team to be well versed on ways of how to avoid being taken down, granted we have full knowledge of your powersets and weaker areas too.

Hela's ability to summon blades will make taking out your team quick and easy, Apocalypse will have a blade summoned straight through him, something he hasn't shown to be able to recover from. While Magneto will be KO'd from the force of the blade.

This will allow Thor to swoop in using Teleportation, and butcher Magneto with Stormbreaker, a weapon which can definitely pierce Vibranium due to scaling from Thanos' Blade allowing for a quick and easy win.

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#13 Posted by eri123 (5282 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by BladeOfFury (3563 posts) - - Show Bio
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Defending from Hela

Straight to the counters.

Now you might say Apocalypse will be the first to use his powers,since he reacted to Quicksilver. However that's not true. Quicksilver was blitzing him before he reflexes adapted, something like that,which allowed Apoc to catch him.

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Correct, Quicksilver was blitzing Apocalypse before his reflexes adapted, but now that they are adapted, Apocalypse can react to anyone slower than the speedster.

And another thing is that Apocalypse powers are activated after his eyes are turned fully white,which takes 1 second, that is enough for Hela to summon her spike.

When fighting Quicksilver, Apocalypse activated his powers in a tiny fraction of a second, successfully entrapping his opponent. There are two possibilities: a) Apocalypse only learned to activate his abilities at such speed in his encounter with Quicksilver, or b) He simply had no reason to rush in the example you brought up. Either way, Apocalypse has proven that he can react at speeds much higher than Hela and her blades are capable of.

Even without using the Quicksilver instance, there is evidence to suggest that Apocalypse is fast enough to protect himself (and his team) from the blades. Here, the mutant reacts to the metal chucked at him by an amped Magneto, putting his shields up in time:

No Caption Provided

Keep in mind that in an unamped state, Magneto could move nearly a million tons, so the metal in the above showing was hurled with great force, and thus, great speed.

Just to show that "great speed" is sufficient to react to Hela's spikes, here is Hogun deflecting three of them at close range:

No Caption Provided

There is also the fact that Apocalypse will have 5x more time to react than Hogun did, due to the starting distance.

Taking all of this into consideration, it seems likely that Apocalypse will counter Hela's ranged attacks the same way he did Magneto's, the only difference being that he will shield his team as well.

I don't believe that Hela can throw blades with greater force than a million-tonner master of magnetism, so the shields should do their job. Apocalypse can also stop the spikes with

  1. Telekinesis - even as a child, he could construct an entire pyramid in seconds. He can take this one step further and redirect the blades at the Asgardians, but more on that later.
  2. Transmutation - he could transmute enough matter to make his new pyramid, also in seconds. If he chooses, he can simply disintegrate the spikes before they reach his team.

Defending from Ghost

-At the start of the battle Ghost will go intangible,meaning my enemies can't effect her and she can one shot all three of them with phasing

For one, it's not even a guarantee that Ghost will reach my team.

  • As you said, Hela will open by throwing her spikes, which means the Apocalypse will already put up his shields. Naturally, those shields are thousands of times more dense than anything Ghost ever phased through, so there needs to be some kind of evidence that Ghost's phasing ignores density altogether.
  • There's also the possibility that Ghost's mask is metal, as it has displayed high durability against Wasp's stingers. If that's true, Magneto can immediately take her out with his Mach 1 speed, even before she goes intangible. Regardless of whether or not her mask is metal, Apocalypse can rip her apart with TK or go for decapitation, and his showing against Quicksilver proves that he is fast enough to use his powers before she does.
  • Even when Ghost is intangible, she doesn't phase through the ground, so giving her no ground to walk on is another option.

These possibilities aren't the most probable separately, but when we realize that they all have a chance of happening, the outcome becomes quite unpleasant for Ghost.

Now, even if she gets to my team, she can't hurt Apocalypse. While it is debatable whether or not Ghost can phasethrough objects or individuals with very high density, we shouldn't assume that she can actually damage them with it.

To hurt someone with phasing, Ghost needs to make her hand intangible, put it inside her target, and then revert her hand back to its solid form inside the body, thus displacing its internal organs. In order to make this happen, Ghost needs to have a hand durable enough to withstand the pressure and force the organs outward. Any organs that are extremely durable or dense (more so than the hand) would simply crush it. While Ghost was successful in hurting regular humans with this ability, it won't work on someone who can tank getting punched around at Mach 2000.

Offense

Apocalypse has several ways of taking your team out.

  1. As mentioned previously, he can lift and carry millions of tons with his telekinesis. (1, 2, 3). He can likely rip your entire team apart.
  2. He can also use his TK to beat your team with your own weapons. Hela's necroswords have have pierced Asgardians like knife through butter throughout the entire movie, Thor included, so En Sabah Nur can wreck your entire team by using them. He can exercise control over Stormbreaker as well, and since it's metal, Magneto can come to assist. Even regular Asgardians wielding standard Asgardian swords can cut clean through Hela, so “a king’s weapon, meant to be the greatest in Asgard” wielded by million-tonners can most definitely do the same.
  3. Apocalypse has shown city-level transmutation. While he hasn't transmuted any living organism, he never really tried to, and it seems illogical that he can manipulate matter but not that of a person.
  4. The mutant has also demonstrated a powerful telepathic ability. Shortly after acquiring Magneto as one of his horsemen, Apocalypse sensed a telepathic communication between Erik and Professor X, and proceeded to take over Charles' mind, forcing him to do his bidding. It's possible that Apocalypse can do the same to Thor or Hela. It is worth mentioning that the only times TP was used against Asgardians, it worked (i.e. Scarlet Witch and Lorelei).

The first two ways Apocalypse can beat your team are legitimate, and while I acknowledge that it is arguable whether or not Apocalypse can actually use the last two abilities, it is definitely possible.

Gameplan

Apocalypse might take your entire team before it does anything, due to his showing against Quicksilver. Even if he doesn't, he can easily shield himself and his teammates from Hela's blades, as he did against Magneto. Safely behind cover, Magneto and Apocalypse would wreck havoc on their enemies, using Hela's spikes and Stormbreaker against them, potentially transmuting the Asgardians themselves or taking over their minds. Numerous options here.

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#15 Posted by BladeOfFury (3563 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Edited by eri123 (5282 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by Subline (9346 posts) - - Show Bio

Team MCU: Rebuttals

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Hela

Correct, Quicksilver was blitzing Apocalypse before his reflexes adapted, but now that they are adapted, Apocalypse can react to anyone slower than the speedster.

Even without using the Quicksilver instance, there is evidence to suggest that Apocalypse is fast enough to protect himself (and his team) from the blades. Here, the mutant reacts to the metal chucked at him by an amped Magneto, putting his shields up in time:

Keep in mind that in an unamped state, Magneto could move nearly a million tons, so the metal in the above showing was hurled with great force, and thus, great speed.

Just to show that "great speed" is sufficient to react to Hela's spikes, here is Hogun deflecting three of them at close range:

Taking all of this into consideration, it seems likely that Apocalypse will counter Hela's ranged attacks the same way he did Magneto's, the only difference being that he will shield his team as well.

I don't believe that Hela can throw blades with greater force than a million-tonner master of magnetism, so the shields should do their job. Apocalypse can also stop the spikes with

Fair point, Apocalypse may be fast enough to react to Hela, but the problem is Hela will summon a spike from beneath the ground which is something you neglected. You assumed Hela will be summoning them from her body but I'm afraid not, since she has full knowledge she will know to try and attack from surprise, hence summoning a spike from the ground. Apocalypse and Magneto will never know what hit them.

When fighting Quicksilver, Apocalypse activated his powers in a tiny fraction of a second, successfully entrapping his opponent. There are two possibilities: a) Apocalypse only learned to activate his abilities at such speed in his encounter with Quicksilver, or b) He simply had no reason to rush in the example you brought up. Either way, Apocalypse has proven that he can react at speeds much higher than Hela and her blades are capable of.

Fair enough but speed isn't going to be much help when the blade comes from the ground and you get impaled from behind or if Thor teleports and one shots with Stormbreaker.

Countering Your Offense

As mentioned previously, he can lift and carry millions of tons with his telekinesis. (1, 2, 3). He can likely rip your entire team apart.

Pretty sure this is out of character, unless you can show Apoc doing this in battle.

He can also use his TK to beat your team with your own weapons. Hela's necroswords have have pierced Asgardians like knife through butter throughout the entire movie, Thor included, so En Sabah Nur can wreck your entire team by using them. He can exercise control over Stormbreaker as well, and since it's metal, Magneto can come to assist. Even regular Asgardians wielding standard Asgardian swords can cut clean through Hela, so “a king’s weapon, meant to be the greatest in Asgard” wielded by million-tonners can most definitely do the same.

Hela isn't just going to summon a blade for CQC tho, she's going to summon it from the ground behind Apoc and kill him in an instant, once it's impaled him he's dead.

As for Thor, he can just blitz Magneto right off the bat by teleporting and using Stormbreaker.

Apocalypse has shown city-level transmutation. While he hasn't transmuted any living organism, he never really tried to, and it seems illogical that he can manipulate matter but not that of a person.

Apocalypse hasn't shown the feats to manipulate organic matter so we can't just assume he can, why is it so illogical, living organic organisms are completely different to inorganic organisms.

Additionally, since you said he has never done this, I guess this is also out of character.

The mutant has also demonstrated a powerful telepathic ability. Shortly after acquiring Magneto as one of his horsemen, Apocalypse sensed a telepathic communication between Erik and Professor X, and proceeded to take over Charles' mind, forcing him to do his bidding. It's possible that Apocalypse can do the same to Thor or Hela. It is worth mentioning that the only times TP was used against Asgardians, it worked (i.e. Scarlet Witch and Lorelei).

Wrong, he controlled Cerebro to:

1) Increase his telepathic abilities so he can mind control people

or

2) To take over Charles's mind so he can use his TP.

Ghost

As you said, Hela will open by throwing her spikes, which means the Apocalypse will already put up his shields. Naturally, those shields are thousands of times more dense than anything Ghost ever phased through, so there needs to be some kind of evidence that Ghost's phasing ignores density altogether.

I don't see what density has to do with this, air is less dense than say a concrete wall, that doesn't mean that air can go through the wall. I'm not seeing the logic here.

There's also the possibility that Ghost's mask is metal, as it has displayed high durability against Wasp's stingers. If that's true, Magneto can immediately take her out with his Mach 1 speed, even before she goes intangible.

A useless argument since this is just speculation, nothing to prove this therefore it can't be used as a valid argument.

Regardless of whether or not her mask is metal, Apocalypse can rip her apart with TK or go fordecapitation, and his showing against Quicksilver proves that he is fast enough to use his powers before she does.

If the first person he decides to go for is Ghost, then Hela can impale him right away or Thor can teleport and take him out with SB.

Even when Ghost is intangible, she doesn't phase through the ground, so giving her no ground to walk on is another option.

Has Apocalypse ever done things simultaneously though? Because doing this would mean that he is distracted for a brief moment and that would allow either Hela or Thor to kill him instantly.

Countering your Gameplan

Apocalypse might take your entire team before it does anything, due to his showing against Quicksilver. Even if he doesn't, he can easily shield himself and his teammates from Hela's blades, as he did against Magneto.

I doubt it, because of the Spider-Sense Thor can teleport away before Apocalypse can do anything and then one shot Apocalypse with Stormbreaker.

Also you still haven't provided a way that Apocalypse can win that isn't out of character.

Safely behind cover, Magneto and Apocalypse would wreck havoc on their enemies, using Hela's spikes and Stormbreaker against them, potentially transmuting the Asgardians themselves or taking over their minds. Numerous options here.

Stormbreaker can't be used against Thor because he is the most worthy of it, he can simply just summon it back, also I don't see the fight lasting long enough for this to happen.

Thor can kill Apocalypse right off the bat via teleporting and Stormbreaker and Hela can impale Magneto, Killian and Ghost can serve as good distractions that will give the Asgardians some extra time.

Conclusion

In short, your team lacks win conditions and on top of that the durability to withstand attacks from our team. Thor can take out Apocalypse right off the bat via Teleportation and Stormbreaker, and Hela can simply impale him and they can do the same to Magneto while Killian and Ghost work as distractions. You haven't yet provided a valid win condition for your team that is in character.

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#18 Posted by Subline (9346 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by PayneInTheAss (12478 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by eri123 (5282 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Posted by BladeOfFury (3563 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by eri123 (5282 posts) - - Show Bio

@bladeoffury: But it's been 10 days tho,eh whatever you can post.

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#24 Posted by geekryan (5765 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#25 Posted by PayneInTheAss (12478 posts) - - Show Bio

@eri123 said:

Sorry guys, been busy,

Post is ready. I´ll tag you guys in minutes.

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#26 Edited by PayneInTheAss (12478 posts) - - Show Bio

Post 2

Enter Magneto

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Powers and perks:

  • Mach 1 speed (combat, reactions, and travel)
  • Ferrokinesis

Counters:

A) Thor – No beating around the bush, Stormbreaker will be a big factor in winning this as Erik will be able to control it, at the expense of Thor.

You mentioned that

he can just blitz Magneto right off the bat by teleporting and using Stormbreaker

but Erik's mach 1 speed won't let that happen.

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Quicksilver is "as fast or almost as fast as a bullet." Even if Mach 1 Magneto is half that fast, Thor's attack will still be in slow mo in his perspective, and he will have plenty of time to evade Stormbreaker even mid-swing. Don't even mention Apocalypse, who Thor isn't hitting in 1500 years.

That being said, it shouldn't come to that at all, as Erik can grab Stormbreaker and skewer Thor right off the bat. A faster character will use his power faster than a slower character. Mach 1 Magneto will use his magnetism faster than Thor will use his teleportation. Simple stuff, really. Erik won't be the one getting blitzed.

Chances are, Thor will get wrecked immediately as he won't expect his weapon to retaliate. However, even if he somehow manages to turn it into a struggle, he is going to lose. In the previous match, I showed some of Erik´s best feats regarding how much can he lift/control, such as the Golden Bridge feat or the stadium, where he lifts almost a million tons. That should be enough to say he can overpower Thor in the contest of taking control over precious Stormbreaker, if it comes to it.

B) Hela –

Your main way to get past the shield involves Hela's spikes from beneath the ground. She used those spikes twice in the movie, once to stop the refugee space ship from taking off (the spikes were summoned from a body of water), and another time against Surtur (once again, the spikes were summoned from the body of water).

When countering Apoc's transmutation, you demonstrated an understanding of the "inability until proven ability" assumption:

Apocalypse hasn't shown the feats to manipulate organic matter so we can't just assume he can, why is it so illogical, living organic organisms are completely different to inorganic organisms.

If you are to be consistent, you must also apply the same reasoning on Hela's spikes:

The spikes Hela summoned haven't been shown to exist on Earth, so we can't just assume that they do. Why is it so illogical? A European country (Sokovia) is completely different from the Asgardian underwater.

Spikes are out.

C) Fodder -

aka Ghost and Killian. Magneto can one shot them by impaling them Hela-style. He can sense metal from miles away, and there is a decent chance that Ghost has metal somewhere in her tactical suit. Sure, it's not a 100% certainty, but any possibility is still worth mentioning (which is also why my partner mentioned Apocalypse's "potential" abilities like TP and transmutation). If it's true, Magneto would be able to crush her before she goes intangible.

As seen in X3:

[Magneto takes control of Wolverine's adamantium skeleton and forcefully pushes him into a tree]

Magneto:

I know the smell of your adamantium from a mile away.

Wolverine:

I didn't come here to fight you.

Magneto:

Smart boy.

You seemed to agree that Apocalypse has multiple ways to take Ghost down (TK/decapitate before she turns intangible or sink her into the ground even afterwards), and focused on the argument that he will have trouble using multiple powers at once. Well, you will be surprised to find that Apocalypse is one of the best multi-taskers in live-action, being able to shield himself from Magneto's onslaught and use telekinesis and transmutation against the X-men while beating one of the world's most powerful telepaths in a telepathic battle... How is that for multi-tasking?

There is also the problem of his shields, and Ghost's inability to phase through them.

I don't see what density has to do with this, air is less dense than say a concrete wall, that doesn't mean that air can go through the wall. I'm not seeing the logic here.

Not only does intangibility generally rely on density shifting (ex. Vision, Kitty Pryde), which already gifts you the burden of proof, but Ghost's phasing was actually explained in the movie:

"Quantum phasing. When an object moves through different states of matter."

Ghost changes her body from solid to something even less dense than gas to phase through objects. The tighter the matter, the harder it is to phase through it.

So, even if Ghost doesn't immediately get taken out by our team before she goes intangible, even if Apocalypse doesn't sink her into the ground before she reaches our team, she won't get through the shield.

Apocalypse: counters to counters

As for Apocalypse not ripping the x-men apart, there are some possible explanations:

  1. Apocalypse's new world centered around mutants. He called them his children, and was interested in unlocking their full power. It is possible that he refrained from killing them for those reasons, and instead went for incap (trapping and breaking Quicksilver's leg, sinking Cyclops into the wall, etc), at least most of the time
  2. Apocalypse allocated most of his concentration on the telepathic battle with Charles Xavier, so he only defended himself physically

It can even be attributed to PIS. Is it stupid that Apocalypse didn't instantly kill Beast with his million-ton telekinesis, which has been shown on multiple occasions (1, 2, 3)? Absolutely. Is it plot-induced? Of course, they can't have all the protagonists getting killed immediately. Voila, PIS proven.

About TK not being in character for Apocalypse...

Pretty sure this is out of character, unless you can show Apoc doing this in battle.

Using telekinesis in battle? Yes, yes I can (1, 2). He didn't use it to the fullest, however, due to the reasons mentioned above.

Summary

Magneto is too OP. Since he's much faster than Thor via perk, he's going to wreck him with Stormbreaker before Thor teleports, due to the element of surprise and his ferrokinesis, one Thor cannot match with his strength or control over the axe. Even if Thor teleports and swings, Erik will have ample time to evade, as shown in the QS instance. This battle between Magneto and Thor will only last a second, and by the end of it, Stormbreaker will be flying towards Hela...

unless she's already dead, that is, ripped apart by Apocalypse's million-ton telekinesis. Telekinesis is totally in-character for Apocalypse (he used it twice in the only big battle he was involved in), and there are multiple reasons why he didn't destroy the X-men with it. What's that? Apocalypse would get killed via surprise spikes from the ground? Well, these spikes don't exist in Sokovia, and the only place she conjured them from was an Asgardian body of water.

If Ghost doesn't die before she goes intangible (Apocalypse and Magneto can use their powers waaaay faster than she can), if Apocalypse doesn't make her fall through the ground while fighting everyone else with his unparalleled multi-tasking abilities, she won't get past the shield due to its density and the way her phasing works.

Killian? Who?

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#29 Edited by eri123 (5282 posts) - - Show Bio
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Counters to your counters.

A) Thor – No beating around the bush, Stormbreaker will be a big factor in winning this as Erik will be able to control it, at the expense of Thor.

That being said, it shouldn't come to that at all, as Erik can grab Stormbreaker and skewer Thor right off the bat. A faster character will use his power faster than a slower character. Mach 1 Magneto will use his magnetism faster than Thor will use his teleportation. Simple stuff, really. Erik won't be the one getting blitzed.

You're forgetting that Erik can't wield Stormbreaker though, in this video Thor explains this:

Quill: What Type of Weapon are we talking about here?

Thor: The Thanos killing kind.

Quill: Don't you think we should all have a weapon like that?

Thor: You simply lack the strength to wield them, your bodies would crumble as your minds collapse into madness.

And since Thor says your minds would "collapse into madness" it shows that it's not only about physical but mental power, so even if you try to argue that Magneto isn't making physical contact so he'll be fine, this clearly disproves that.

As for Magneto blitzing Thor, that ain't happening, as Thor's reaction speeds are easily over Mach 1 as he kept track of Mach 4 Quicksilver (see below for QS Speed), on top of that he has Spidey Sense which alerts him early and gives him even more time, in short Thor ain't getting blitzed by Mag.

You mentioned that

he can just blitz Magneto right off the bat by teleporting and using Stormbreaker

but Erik's mach 1 speed won't let that happen.

Stormbreaker isn't the only way Thor is hitting Magneto, his lighting cloak will take him out instantly as Erik has no notable durability feats, and Mach 1 reaction speed is nowhere near fast enough to dodge lightning.

Apocalypse is definitely not dodging a hit from Stormbreaker from behind, what you showed is reaction speed, which won't be useful if you don't even know when you're gonna get hit.

Quicksilver is "as fast or almost as fast as a bullet." Even if Mach 1 Magneto is half that fast, Thor's attack will still be in slow mo in his perspective, and he will have plenty of time to evade Stormbreaker even mid-swing. Don't even mention Apocalypse, who Thor isn't hitting in 1500 years.

QS's speed was already calced and it came to Mach 4, based on the fact that QS casually caught a 381m/s bullet against Klaue and saw a Handgun bullet in slo-mo, it's safe to say that Whedon was probably talking the Avengers' cannon's muzzle velocity / bullet speed, which is mentioned in the video. Although calcs aren't always trustworthy I don't see any faults with this one and it should be a good source for his speed.

This means Thor would be moving in Slo-Mo to someone who can move at Mach 4, 4 times faster than Magneto, so Magneto defo won't be able to dodge a hit from Stormbreaker especially since it's from behind.

The thing is Thor can just keep spamming his teleportation(thanks to his Superhuman stamina) and keep his lighting cloak active, so much that Magneto can't react to him or concentrate to use his powers.

B) Hela – Your main way to get past the shield involves Hela's spikes from beneath the ground. She used those spikes twice in the movie, once to stop the refugee space ship from taking off (the spikes were summoned from a body of water), and another time against Surtur (once again, the spikes were summoned from the body of water).

When countering Apoc's transmutation, you demonstrated an understanding of the "inability until proven ability" assumption:

If you are to be consistent, you must also apply the same reasoning on Hela's spikes:

Spikes are out.

That's not similar at all though, Hela has actually used them though which shows she uses them when she feels necessary unlike Apoc who doesn't fight like the way you were specifying, if Hela tries to shoot blades and they are blocked then she will instantly know to summon one from behind, it's simple really.

C) Fodder - aka Ghost and Killian. Magneto can one shot them by impaling them Hela-style. He can sense metal from miles away, and there is a decent chance that Ghost has metal somewhere in her tactical suit. Sure, it's not a 100% certainty, but any possibility is still worth mentioning (which is also why my partner mentioned Apocalypse's "potential" abilities like TP and transmutation). If it's true, Magneto would be able to crush her before she goes intangible.

Like we said they are distractions, by the time Magneto kills them Thor would have already sent Stormbreaker through his chest or a fried him with a lightning blast. And that's assuming she does have metal in her suit, which you haven't proved, you've just used headcannon saying "there's a decent chance", there's no certainty behind this.

You seemed to agree that Apocalypse has multiple ways to take Ghost down (TK/decapitate before she turns intangible or sink her into the ground even afterwards), and focused on the argument that he will have trouble using multiple powers at once. Well, you will be surprised to find that Apocalypse is one of the best multi-taskers in live-action, being able to shield himself from Magneto's onslaught and use telekinesis and transmutation against the X-men while beating one of the world's most powerful telepaths in a telepathic battle... How is that for multi-tasking?

He was performing the tasks at the same time but had to start each at their own time, so he will have to for example put Ghost in a hold first then Killian etc, that'll waste time in which time Apoc can get beheaded.

Not only does intangibility generally rely on density shifting (ex. Vision, Kitty Pryde), which already gifts you the burden of proof, but Ghost's phasing was actually explained in the movie:

Ghost changes her body from solid to something even less dense than gas to phase through objects. The tighter the matter, the harder it is to phase through it.

So, even if Ghost doesn't immediately get taken out by our team before she goes intangible, even if Apocalypse doesn't sink her into the ground before she reaches our team, she won't get through the shield.

Fair enough, I'll concede to this.

Counters to your counters to my counters

  1. If Apocalypse doesn't have any problems killing mutants, why did he tell Psylocke to finish off Also the thing is, does Apoc know whether my team are mutants or not? He might not attack them with full power just as a precaution. He may want to absorb their powers after the battle or he will be making some speech to join him which will fail.
  2. Apocalypse literally wanted to absorb Charles powers so he can control the world,so yeah he doesn't have mind control. If he did he would have used it many times in the movie when it was needed like controlling mutants to become Horseman.Instead he did it by promising them power and other stuff.

Final Counters to your Conclusion:

Magneto is too OP. Since he's much faster than Thor via perk, he's going to wreck him with Stormbreaker before Thor teleports, due to the element of surprise and his ferrokinesis, one Thor cannot match with his strength or control over the axe. Even if Thor teleports and swings, Erik will have ample time to evade, as shown in the QS instance. This battle between Magneto and Thor will only last a second, and by the end of it, Stormbreaker will be flying towards Hela...

Thor has faster reaction speed (QS feat) and op precognition. He is not wrecking him with Stormbreaker since his Spider Sense will warn him and he will teleport hit them with Lighting or Stormbreaker.

It's been debunked why Mags can't wield Stormbreaker above.

unless she's already dead, that is, ripped apart by Apocalypse's million-ton telekinesis. Telekinesis is totally in-character for Apocalypse (he used it twice in the only big battle he was involved in), and there are multiple reasons why he didn't destroy the X-men with it. What's that? Apocalypse would get killed via surprise spikes from the ground? Well, these spikes don't exist in Sokovia, and the only place she conjured them from was an Asgardian body of water.

Apoc will be thinking if these guys are mutants and he probably tell Magneto not to kill them. But he won't have a mind to think when he gets impaled by Hela.

Apex said that Hela is at full power, like she was in the end of Ragnarok on Asgard, so she will be able to summon blades the same way she was there, and impale via summoning a spike from the ground.

If Ghost doesn't die before she goes intangible (Apocalypse and Magneto can use their powers waaaay faster than she can), if Apocalypse doesn't make her fall through the ground while fighting everyone else with his unparalleled multi-tasking abilities, she won't get past the shield due to its density and the way her phasing works.

Like we said she can serve as a quick distraction anyway.

Killian? Who?

Vanisher? Who? Looks like he's vanished from this battle too, what a wimp.

Gameplan

Hela can still impale either Magneto or Apoc with spikes from the ground. Meanwhile her brother can take care of the other. The only thing that has changed is that Apocalypse will think they are mutants which makes the chances of your team winning even worse. Previous points from our earlier posts still stand.

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#30 Edited by eri123 (5282 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Posted by Subline (9346 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by BladeOfFury (3563 posts) - - Show Bio

@subline: Sure, Payne still needs to make a small edit to the previous post lol. It won’t change anything, just clarify our position.

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#33 Edited by BladeOfFury (3563 posts) - - Show Bio
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The main points of contention are

  • Magneto's ability to wield Stormbreaker
  • Thor's speed via Quicksilver
  • Hela's underground spikes

I will address them one by one, proving that Magneto can wield Stormbreaker just fine, that Thor isn't fast enough to react to the ax or catch Magneto with it, and that Hela cannot summon her spikes at all, in this particular scenario.

Stealing your gear

You're forgetting that Erik can't wield Stormbreaker though

And since Thor says your minds would "collapse into madness" it shows that it's not only about physical but mental power, so even if you try to argue that Magneto isn't making physical contact so he'll be fine, this clearly disproves that.

I'm sure you would agree that Erik's magnetism surpasses teenage Groot's strength by a substantial amount, so the physical requirement (if it exists) is met. As for mental, I can assure you that this piece of equipment adequately protects Erik's mind.

The entire purpose of Magneto's helmet is to keep his mind safe from all forms of mental assault. Here is an example, in which Emma Frost fails to read Sebastian Shaw's mind when he has the helmet on. This is a more applicable one. When Shaw has the helmet on, Professor X is unable to penetrate his mind - as soon as it's off, Charles immediately freezes him with TP.

The helmet completely eliminates any doubt that Magneto can control Stormbreaker, doubt that was questionable to begin with.

  • This entire counter-argument is based on a 4-second remark that could have been a joke designed to scare off the GoTG, based on the humorous mood of the scene, as well as the fact that Stormbreaker didn't exist at the time of the statement, so Thor couldn't have possibly known its affect on others.
  • Groot and Thanos wielded Stormbreaker without any indication of a mental struggle. The latter case, Stormbreaker was actually used against Thor himself, successfully.
  • If it's true, we still don't know the time period it would take for a human mind to descend into madness. It could be an hour, a day, or a week. We cannot just assume that this process is instantaneous, and the claim that nobody can wield it for a second is unsubstantiated.

Thor Quickinson

As for Magneto blitzing Thor, that ain't happening, as Thor's reaction speeds are easily over Mach 1 as he kept track of Mach 4 Quicksilver (see below for QS Speed), on top of that he has Spidey Sense which alerts him early and gives him even more time, in short Thor ain't getting blitzed by Mag.

QS's speed was already calced and it came to Mach 4, based on the fact that QS casually caught a 381m/s bullet against Klaue and saw a Handgun bullet in slo-mo, it's safe to say that Whedon was probably talking the Avengers' cannon's muzzle velocity / bullet speed, which is mentioned in the video. Although calcs aren't always trustworthy I don't see any faults with this one and it should be a good source for his speed.

This means Thor would be moving in Slo-Mo to someone who can move at Mach 4, 4 times faster than Magneto, so Magneto defo won't be able to dodge a hit from Stormbreaker especially since it's from behind.

The problem here is that MCU Quicksilver isn't mach 4.

  1. The fastest bullets in AoU are those of the Avengers' cannon (mach 2.5, according to the video you provided), so Whedon's statement already puts a ceiling on Quicksilver's speed, a ceiling significantly lower than mach 4.
  2. Gubz's calc is faulty. For some reason, he assumed that a bullet was already fired before Quicksilver began to run, and that Quicksilver covered that entire distance while that same bullet was making its way to Clint. Quicksilver actually outran the trail of bullets, covering a large distance before the cannon turned to Hawkeye, not the bullets themselves.

Looking at Pietro's other bullet-related feats...

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Catching a handgun bullet is impressive, but you don't need to be much faster than the bullet to do so. For instance, I can catch a flying ball but I can't outrun it.

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Here, Quicksilver seems to move slower than a handgun bullet. I am not saying that Pietro maxes out at sonic speed, but anything over mach 2 is already a stretch.

This is even more so. If we assume that the guy could move normally in that perspective, he would be mach 100+, which is completely out of line from the above feat and his intended standing.

I would say that mach 2 is a generous estimate for Quicksilver's speed, which makes him twice as fast as Magneto.

Now, what does it say about Thor's speed? Not much, considering that Quicksilver was already running in a straight line towards Thor when the hammer was thrown, so we don't know how much time Thor had to react. Thor begins this fight holding Stormbreaker. When mach 1 Magneto uses the ax, which is only a foot away from Thor's body, with the element of surprise, the dude isn't reacting. Spider-sense is danger sense only, and knowing that he's in danger won't help Thor react to something he can't react to.

The idea that Thor will use his power before Magneto uses his is similarly irrational. First, obviously, Erik is much faster than Thor, and his magnetism only takes a thought to activate, just like Thor's teleportation. Second, Thor is a rather versatile character: he can summon lightning from the sky, use Stormbreaker to conjure lightning, and throw the weapon itself. With no knowledge, him immediately going for teleportation, an ability completely new to him, is quite unlikely if you think about it.

On the off-chance that Thor will instantly teleport the moment the battle begins and somehow do it before a much faster character uses his powers, both Erik and Apocalypse can still dodge Stormbreaker mid-swing, the latter with utter ease. Given that it would have taken Thor over 5 seconds to hit his target in QS' perspective, it would take a good couple seconds in Magneto's, which is enough time for him to evade. Attacking an unknown opponent from behind is more of a Loki thing to do, not Thor, but anyway, a sound is made every time Nightcrawler teleports, so Erik and En Sabah Nur will be alerted by ninja Thor's presence. Their reaction speeds would then come into play.

Teleporting into Magneto and activating the lightning cloak would be a better way to counter my team, but with no knowledge, the probability of Thor using this exact combination of abilities is extremely low. Keep in mind that he still needs to out-speed Magneto for this to happen.

Poke Em

That's not similar at all though, Hela has actually used them though which shows she uses them when she feels necessary unlike Apoc who doesn't fight like the way you were specifying, if Hela tries to shoot blades and they are blocked then she will instantly know to summon one from behind, it's simple really.

Apex said that Hela is at full power, like she was in the end of Ragnarok on Asgard, so she will be able to summon blades the same way she was there, and impale via summoning a spike from the ground.

Yes, Hela is at full power, but there is nothing to suggest that summoning spikes from somewhere they don't exist is part of that power. For instance, Magneto cannot summon adamantium from the battlefield because it doesn't exist on the battlefield. Hela cannot summon her spikes from Sokovia's ground... because they don't exist in Sokovia's ground. Apex stated that you can't treat Hela like she is in Asgard, and if I show that she cannot replicate certain feats outside of it, that's between us.

To maintain your stance, you must prove that Hela makes the spikes materialize in the ground, from which she then summons them. This is technically possible, but there is reasonable doubt. Hela was shown in battle numerous times in multiple locations: against Thor and Loki in the bifrost, the Warriors Three at the tip of the rainbow bridge, hundreds of Asgardian warriors and their battleships in the city of Asgard, the valkyries in Hel, Thor in the throne room, Thor (again) and Valkyrie on the rainbow bridge. And yet, she didn't summon her spikes (which would have been very useful) a single time in any of these locations, and instead got them (not once but twice) from somewhere awfully specific: the Asgardian body of water. This definitely sheds doubt on the assumption that Hela can make the spikes appear wherever she wants, and just like with Apoc's transmutation, this doubt prevents us from making this assumption.

Of course, I will provide a reason why my team will be fine even if Hela can do it. These gigantic spikes will make quite a sound as they rip through the concrete beneath my team's feet, wouldn't you say? Someone with mach 1 reactions will likely be capable of moving out of the way, and if not, someone with mach 2000 reactions (you have accepted Apoc's showing against Quicksilver) most definitely will. Apocalypse will either transmute the spikes into sand, crush them with his TK, or cover his team with his shield.

Other

What else is there? Apocalypse being distracted?

He was performing the tasks at the same time but had to start each at their own time, so he will have to for example put Ghost in a hold first then Killian etc, that'll waste time in which time Apoc can get beheaded.

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Apocalypse demonstrated great range, precision, and power in the above showing of telekinesis and transmutation. This is exactly the combination of abilities Apoc needs to take out your distractions without being distracted. I mean, he ripped buildings apart and carried a million tons with his TK while transmuting massive amounts of matter. He will essentially do the same thing against your team but on a much lesser scale: transmute the ground into sand to stop Ghost while manhandling the rest of your team with TK. Easy.

Apocalypse holding back on your characters thinking that they're mutants?

He might not attack them with full power just as a precaution. He may want to absorb their powers after the battle or he will be making some speech to join him which will fail.

I actually forgot that Apocalypse told Psylocke to kill Quicksilver, so I would attribute his restraint against the mutants to PIS, as my partner explained in the last post. This would also mean that he won't hold back against your team. Not that it really matters though, as Apoc has the ability to incapacitate your team without killing anyone.

Recap

  • Magneto can wield Stormbreaker. Teenage Groot held the ax, so Erik's magnetism is more than enough. The helmet (which shuts out powerful telepaths like Xavier and Emma Frost) will keep Erik's mind safe from any potential effects, effects that are questionable in the first place.
  • Thor is not reacting to Stormbreaker. It will be getting shoved through him by mach 1 Magneto with the element of surprise, and the fact that Stormbreaker is right next to Thor's body makes it impossible for Thor to prevent it. Thor isn't teleporting before Magneto uses the ax because Magneto is way faster, and Thor's plethora of offensive abilities makes it unlikely that he will begin with this specific one. Even if he does, both Magneto and Apocalypse can react to Stormbreaker mid-swing, as MCU Quicksilver (who is mach 2 at best) saw Thor's strike in slow mo. Thor attacking from behind won't help either, as Nightcrawler's teleportation makes a sound which will alert my team.
  • Hela cannot summon her spikes from the ground. One cannot summon that which is not there to begin with, and Sokovia does not have giant spikes beneath its concrete. It cannot be proven, beyond reasonable doubt, that Hela makes the spikes materialize in the ground, considering the specific location they were summoned from, not once, but twice. Even if she can summon the spikes, it will make lots of noise, and Apocalypse (given his reaction speed) will be able to stop them before they do damage.
  • The distractions aren't distractions. Apocalypse used telekinesis and transmutation on numerous objects at once when creating his pyramid.

How the fight will probably go: mach 1 Magneto impales Thor with his own weapon while Apocalypse gets rid of Ghost and Killian with telekinesis and transmutation, putting his shields up to stop Hela's blades. Erik chucks Stormbreaker at Hela while Apocalypse freezes her with TK, letting the ax hit

or smth like dat

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#34 Posted by BladeOfFury (3563 posts) - - Show Bio