Have to go with Thor both rounds. Zod is below Superman in just about everything. He only put up a semi decent fight because Clark is a farm boy and Zod was genetically engineered to be a warrior.
Thor’s versatility wins him this. He can just fry Zod with lightning.
1. Zod is below Superman in just about everything. He only put up a semi decent fight because Clark is a farm boy and Zod was genetically engineered to be a warrior.
2. Thor’s versatility wins him this. He can just fry Zod with lightning.
1. No way. Zod was kicking ass in that fight. Kal got a puncher's chance ko in the 15th round. Zod lost because of plot.
2. Lightning that has managed to do what, exactly? It could not kill Iron Man, Hulk, Malekith, or Hela. Lightning that managed to knock over an unaware Thanos is going to kill Zod?
@TheGrat1: I should have said no energy durability feats worth mentioning compared to Thor’s attacks. I could go in to a lot more detail here, but Thor’s attacks are so far above what Zod has its laughable. City block level lightning, for one. Also, you’re lowballing unbelievably. Thor never went all out on Iron-man, he just about one shot Hulk, Hela is crazy durable, and Malekith is extremely durable as well, but you miss the point that this is a feat for those characters when Thor has busted a city block level portion of Jotunheim with straight lightning, and that’s PRE amp
@xzone: I don’t think I saw that one. But any non troll would know speed equalized Thor could fling each one of them out of existence with ease. I could see non speed equalized Thor winning if bfr isn’t allowed.
Thor's lightning attacks have done little to anyone above mook status outside of the leviathans and he needed the Chrysler building and a 15 second charge time for that.
Please, let's go into detail.
"Never went all out agaonst Iron Man"
True, but to what degree was he holding back? He charged his attack for 5 seconds and held it on Iron Man for just as long. He even grunted as he emitted the lightning. Clearly he put effort into it and although he damaged Iron Man he could not incapacitate him. Now that I think about it, his lightning did about as much damage as Whiplash's whips did.
.
"Just about one-shot Hulk"
Who is below Kryptonians in everything but size. Hulk actually took two of those attacks and could still fight. "Just about two-shot Hulk" is what I think you meant to say, and even that is dubious.
.
"Hela is crazy durable"
So is Zod, and Thor's lightning was never more than an irritant for her.
.
"Malekith is extremely durable as well'
Really? Care to name any of his relevant durabilty feats? Remember: An enraged Thor hit him in the face before he got the aether, right after he saw his mother being killed. Malekith survived with only a burn to show for it and just needed a nap to recover. He was incapacitated but I have seen nothing to suggest Mal is physically above an average dark elf warrior, whom can be killed by an intern swinging a car on them.
.
Thanos was merely knocked over.
.
Thor channeled lightning into an ice shelf that was falling apart when he got there. This a different attack than a direct projection (his preferred method) and an overrated feat.
.
City block this. Jötunheim that. Thor has unleashed serious lightning attacks against 5 named characters in one on one combat and among them only Malekith was so much as incapacitated, and he is an elite mook at best.
If you honestly think that track record is enough to say the lightning can "one-shot" a full-powered Zod then you and i will never agree.
Sorry bud. Zod and Superman are not equals. Zod made it a good fight because of combat proficiency and skill. If their stats were equal, how was it that Clark (a farm boy in the first fight in his life) was able to kill him (the general in their army)? It wasn’t a lucky punch. He outgrappled Zod and snapped his neck. He outlasted him.
I’m going to need for you to show me some feats to suggest Zod can survive the lightning strikes from Thor from Ragnarok and IW. You claimed earlier he survived reentry. Impressive. But the heat of reentry is nowhere near the heat of lightning. Hela and Thanos surviving those blasts are feats for them, not feats against Thor.
In MoS even Clark was incapacitated by the plasma blasts from Zod’s ship. He wasn’t the same Clark who can survive a nuke while weakened. Thor’s lightning can incapacitate Zod, then Thor can kill him with SB.
@TheGrat1: Zod cannot be scaled to Superman. Zod got his neck broken by Superman. Easily. Thor one shotted the bifrost bridge with his lighting and Asgard’s castle. He also destroyed a skyscraper sized alien ship in one blow with SB.
Sorry bud. Zod and Superman are not equals. Zod made it a good fight because of combat proficiency and skill. If their stats were equal, how was it that Clark (a farm boy in the first fight in his life) was able to kill him (the general in their army)? It wasn’t a lucky punch. He outgrappled Zod and snapped his neck. He outlasted him.
I’m going to need for you to show me some feats to suggest Zod can survive the lightning strikes from Thor from Ragnarok and IW. You claimed earlier he survived reentry. Impressive. But the heat of reentry is nowhere near the heat of lightning. Hela and Thanos surviving those blasts are feats for them, not feats against Thor.
In MoS even Clark was incapacitated by the plasma blasts from Zod’s ship. He wasn’t the same Clark who can survive a nuke while weakened. Thor’s lightning can incapacitate Zod, then Thor can kill him with SB.
If Zod is not Kal's equal how could he possibly directly match his speed and strength the way he did several times in their battle? Kal may have had an edge in experience with his abilities but their stats were identical.
There is no need to be sorry.
.
How was he able to kill him? I will let you on on a little secret: Kal-El is the main character and hero of a superhero film. He is going to beat the villain at the end of the movie. Zod was clearly the superior combatant for the vast majority of the battle, with Kal gaining the upper hand at the end simply because he has to win.
Outgrappled? Kal tackled him to the ground and put him in a head lock when he tried to get up. Let us not pretend he pulled some jiu jitsu moves like Cap did to the Winter Soldier.
How about you show me Thor's lightning harming someone with Zod's level of durability? You made the claim that Thor will fry him. So far his lightning has only managed to kill/incapacitate chitauri, ultron bots, undead asgardians and Malekith. All mooks that can be taken out by bullets, missiles, arrows, and cars.
Zod's body can not even decay but sure, let us act like he is anywhere close in durability to these beings.
.
And it was not an isolated incident. The kryptonian gun Lois used was able to stun Kryptonians too and it is a fraction of the size of the one used by the ship. The plasma blast had more effect on Kal-El than falling through a mountain. I would not call it weak.
.
The next time his lightning incapacitates a being as powerful as Zod, it will be the first time.
@TheGrat1: Zod cannot be scaled to Superman. Zod got his neck broken by Superman. Easily. Thor one shotted the bifrost bridge with his lighting and Asgard’s castle. He also destroyed a skyscraper sized alien ship in one blow with SB.
And there is no reason to believe that someone who was directly matching Kal's strength could not break his neck in return.
.
The same bridge that was broken by a wolf falling on it. Thor also had to channel the lightning directly into the bridge like he did in jötunheim. That is not an attack he would launch against Zod.
.
Yeah, flying through the entire ship and blowing it up from the inside is "one blow". Sure.
The logic of using the story is flawed because I can turn it around and say Thanos tanked Thor’s lightning because he was supposed to win in this movie. Just because Superman was the hero doesn’t mean he’s supposed to win. But anyways, Supes won because he had the physical advantage over him. Zod had the combat experience advantage, which was evident whenever they engaged in CQC Zod would put the moves on him. But when they clashed on both occasions Zod was the one sent flying, not Supes.
Getting thrown into the ground and getting placed in a headlock is literally the definition of getting outgrappled lol. Just because Cap got Bucky in a RNC BJ Penn style doesn’t mean that what Kal did wasn’t outgrappling his opponent.
And I never suggested that the plasma blast was weak. The argument that is being made is that the energy durability feats in MoS were lacking, which gives Thor a significant advantage with his lightning strikes. The only one who really tanked Thor’s lightning was Thanos. Hela, although not harmed, was incapacitated twice by the strikes for a period of time. Hulk was almost put out of commission with lightning enhanced punches to the point Grandmater had to intervene. By feats, Thor’s lightning can easily incapacitate/disorient Zod, where Thor will use that opening to kill him with SB.
@xzone: Thanks man. I actually looked at that before I posted, just to make sure my point wasn't toooo arguable, which I don't really think it is. When it comes to speed, Thor isn't "slow", but when compared to the likes of Zod and DCEU Superman he's slow enough to get blitzed. Because thinking about it, the best reaction time feat was probably him dodging the airplane wing Hulk threw.
@matthew660 said:@TheGrat1: The same wolf that weighed 30-50 tons jumping on it and the same bridge that no selled a gigantic space ship flying down on it.
That is a nice random guess on Fenris' weight but I do not have a problem with it. That is around the same weight as the double tanker Zod kicked with little issue. It is also well below the weight of the train Nam-Ek chucked at Kal-El. Basically, Zod and Nam-Ek would be able to break the bridge by punching or kicking it. Zod's mere footsteps would probably put cracks in it the same way Fenris's did.
.
"Gigantic space ship"? The Grandmaster's pleasure ship is slightly bigger than a F-22 fighter. Gigantic would be the Asgardian escape ship or the Kryptonian scout ship.
The logic of using the story is flawed because I can turn it around and say Thanos tanked Thor’s lightning because he was supposed to win in this movie. Just because Superman was the hero doesn’t mean he’s supposed to win. But anyways, Supes won because he had the physical advantage over him. Zod had the combat experience advantage, which was evident whenever they engaged in CQC Zod would put the moves on him. But when they clashed on both occasions Zod was the one sent flying, not Supes.
Getting thrown into the ground and getting placed in a headlock is literally the definition of getting outgrappled lol. Just because Cap got Bucky in a RNC BJ Penn style doesn’t mean that what Kal did wasn’t outgrappling his opponent.
And I never suggested that the plasma blast was weak. The argument that is being made is that the energy durability feats in MoS were lacking, which gives Thor a significant advantage with his lightning strikes. The only one who really tanked Thor’s lightning was Thanos. Hela, although not harmed, was incapacitated twice by the strikes for a period of time. Hulk was almost put out of commission with lightning enhanced punches to the point Grandmater had to intervene. By feats, Thor’s lightning can easily incapacitate/disorient Zod, where Thor will use that opening to kill him with SB.
You could say that but it would not make sense. Thanos got his chest caved in 5 seconds after he was hit with the lightning. He can take damage and it will not matter to the plot as long as he is able to do the snap and then survive afterwards. Thanos tanked Thor's lightning because it was not strong enough to hurt him. It could have burned Thanos or injured him in some way, any way. Instead it just knocked him over, he immediately recovered and launched a counterattack.
.
Any in-depth analysis will show that Zod dominated that fight. The headlock was the only actual grappling Kal did. He did not throw Zod into the ground he flew him into it. Not exactly traditional wrestling technique. Now that headlock was actually plot-induced as the writers had created a "one must die" situation and pre-determined that a neck snap was the way to do it. Obviously Kal-El must be in position to perform such an action so a rear hold is required.
.
You can keep saying Kal-El had the physical advantage all you want, it will not make it true. Every Kryptonian Kal-El fought directly matched his speed, strength and durability on several occasions.
Edit: Zod was the one who was always sent flying?
Did you guys watch the movie?
.
Hela was not incapacitated by the lightning she was bfr'd. He broke the balcony and she fell and had to walk across the bridge. Then Thor broke the bridge and she fell into the water.
.
Hulk out of commission? He was on his feet and ready to keep fighting. The punch threw him for a loop but he was not out of it. Grandmaster thought Hulk was going to lose (he was) and sabotaged Thor when he saw all the momentum had swung in his favor.
.
Thanos<<Zod and Thor's lightning did nothing to him.
@TheGrat1: Zod cannot be scaled to Superman. Zod got his neck broken by Superman. Easily.
The same would probably have happened vice versa
Thor one shotted the bifrost bridge with his lighting and Asgard’s castle.
Using Mjølnir iirc, not just his lightning.
He also destroyed a skyscraper sized alien ship in one blow with SB.
Not using his raw lightning and destrying that wouldn’t be that hard if it contains fuels and such.
Not to DCEU Supes currently.
He never one-shotted the bifrost with Mjolnir alone. He took several strikes without lightning in Thor 1. He one-shotted it with lightning in Thor 3. Mjolnir was broken at that point
And if you look closely at the scene, the ships that no-sold re-entry, which is Zod's apparent highest energy resistance feat, the explosions had several repeated flashes of white/blue lightning, which tells the audience where Thor was flying when we couldn't see him. Otherwise the Kryptonian ships tanking re-entry mean nothing as well.
@TheGrat1: I’m not sure you’re even reading my posts correctly.
I clearly stated that in CQC Zod put the moves on Clark. Exactly like he should have, because he has years of combat experience and he’s the damn general in their army. But even with that, Superman still outlasted him. Did YOU watch the movie? Superman after they came back from orbit literally threw him to the ground, held him there, and got him in the headlock. Even on their way down from space Superman has the advantage in their positioning. How does a less experienced fighter get the drop on a master combatant like that? You keep claiming plot plot plot, because you have no counter for anything that is being presented to you. If we are going to just chuck out arguments to “we’ll thats how the writers had it” then the battle forums wouldn’t exist. Typically in movies when the hero has to defeat a more powerful opponent, there is always some type of outside intervention or a plan or something that helps the hero win. This wasn’t the case. Superman killed him with his bare hands.
Hela was for sure incapacitated. Not BFR’d. She took a hell of a long time to return on both occasions after being hit by the lightning. If you really think she wasn’t momentarily put out of commission, then you’re absolutely wrong. On the bridge she landed in the water and took minutes to come back up. The Hulk had his complete Surtur moment before she came back up. If she wasn’t hurt, then she would have come up immediately.
I never said that Hulk was put out of commission. I said he was almost put out of commission. If they would have kept fighting, he would have been taken out. The Grandmaster had to intervene. Which you have already conceded and admitted.
You still have yet to convince that Zod can be scaled to a 30 years sundipped Superman. Faora expressed it perfectly in the movie. “You’re weak Kal El, unsure of yourself. You have a sense of morality and that puts you at an evolutionary disadvantage”. This was Clark’s literal first fight of his life. He had never tested his limits. It wasn’t until BvS came around that Clark became Superman, and we started to see his higher end feats. On top of that, he was fighting a bloodlusted Zod when he was morals on. Come on.
You have yet to provide me with feats from the movie to suggest that Zod no sells Thor’s lightning. I need the energy durability feats. The only ones are Superman being hit by the plasma cannons, which he was knocked on his butt and cringing in pain, and Faora being KO’d by a rocket. The whole basis of my argument is that Thor hits Zod with lightning (who doesn’t have the feats to no sell) and kill him with SB. Once you show me a feat of Zod tanking energy or something as hot/powerful as lightning, then I’ll concede.
I’m not sure you’re even reading my posts correctly.
I clearly stated that in CQC Zod put the moves on Clark. Exactly like he should have, because he has years of combat experience and he’s the damn general in their army. But even with that, Superman still outlasted him. Did YOU watch the movie? Superman after they came back from orbit literally threw him to the ground, held him there, and got him in the headlock.
Oh, I read just fine. Experience does not allow Zod to match Kal-El's strength and speed, stats do.
Yes, I watched the film, that is how I was able to disprove your "Zod was the one always sent flying" claim so easily.
"literally threw him to the ground" - You, twice now.
"He did not throw Zod intro the ground he flew/tackled him into it." - Me, twice now.
- The film
This is why I ask if people have seen the film. Or is it that you do not know the difference between tackling and throwing? You even threw "literally" in there as if it would make it true.
Even on their way down from space Superman has the advantage in their positioning. How does a less experienced fighter get the drop on a master combatant like that?
Master of what? Do you honestly believe that Zod was instructed on the finer points of flight and mid-air hand to hand combat at the Kryptonian military academy? I already stated the Kal would have an edge in EXPERIENCE with his abilities. Zod had started flying two minutes earlier, Kal-El should have an advantage over him in that area.
You keep claiming plot plot plot, because you have no counter for anything that is being presented to you. If we are going to just chuck out arguments to “we’ll thats how the writers had it” then the battle forums wouldn’t exist. Typically in movies when the hero has to defeat a more powerful opponent, there is always some type of outside intervention or a plan or something that helps the hero win. This wasn’t the case. Superman killed him with his bare hands.
I think it is pretty clear you do not know what combat elements would be dictated by plot. I realized that when you said Thanos tanked the lightning because he had to win. Tell me, why was he able to tank the lightning but not Stormbreaker? He still "had to win" right?
Kal-EL had to kill Zod, it was the only way their battle would end with him victorious. A broken neck was decided to be the means by which he would be killed. In order to break Zod's neck Kal would have to:
1. Simply walk up to Zod, overpower him and break his neck (not possible because Zod is his equal)
2. Catch Zod by surprise and break his neck. Not likely considering Zod's senses, not to mention it would be terribly anticlimactic/unheroic.
3. Have Zod in a vulnerable position to be able to execute the neck snap.
Obviously they chose #3. Zod is not going simply to give up his back and so they script the sequence directly before the snap so that Kal can get him into that advantageous position. We never see what happens between Zod tackling Kal-El through the satellite and Kal flying Zod into the train station so your statement that Kal ended up on top purely because he is more powerful is pure speculation.
Hela was for sure incapacitated. Not BFR’d. She took a hell of a long time to return on both occasions after being hit by the lightning. If you really think she wasn’t momentarily put out of commission, then you’re absolutely wrong. On the bridge she landed in the water and took minutes to come back up. The Hulk had his complete Surtur moment before she came back up. If she wasn’t hurt, then she would have come up immediately.
She took a hell of a long time because she had to walk to where the battle was. It took Skurge a hell of a long time to get to the palace to herald Thor's arrival. That bridge is kilometers long and Asgardians ride horses for a reason, man, they are not fast. Thor himself said the lightning did "nothing".
It took Hulk several minutes to get back to the bridge after he bfr'd Fenris. Longer than it took for Hela. Was he incapacitated?
I am amused by how you say I am "absolutely wrong" when your assertion that she was hurt is pure speculation. We never see how she is doing after both of the lightning strikes but you know exactly what state she was in. I have provided examples of other characters taking extended periods of time to traverse the bridge plus Thor's statement that the biggest lightning blast in history did nothing. You have a guess.
I never said that Hulk was put out of commission. I said he was almost put out of commission. If they would have kept fighting, he would have been taken out. The Grandmaster had to intervene. Which you have already conceded and admitted.
Wow, massive difference. I always go with the evidence presented in the films. I did not concede to anything, I concurred with you.
You still have yet to convince that Zod can be scaled to a 30 years sundipped Superman.
If this does not convince you, nothing will:
Zod clashes with Kal-EL and sends him flying. Zod is able to immediately catch up to him looking unaffected whilst Kal lays on the floor.
Kal-El is unable to catch up to Zod while flying. Zod even manages to evade him. If Kal was superior he would have been able to catch up.
Zod not only has the reaction time but the raw strength to stop Kal's punch cold.
.
Kal-El was unable to move Zod away from the bystanders in the train station.
.
Zod has benchmarks for kryptonians. He has the best heat vision feat (easily crippling a skyscraper) and some of the best striking feats (punching Kal a 1/4 of a mile away through a building, punching Kal to the top of a skyscraper).
.
This 33 years years of sun exposure (he has never sun dipped that we know of) making Superman more powerful than other kryptonians is a myth. Not only were others able to match him in several categories but this myth ignores Kryptoninan physiology. They are solar batteries/capacitors. After a certain point you can not charge/fill a battery/capacitor any further. This has been consistent over decades of Superman lore. In virtually every incarnation other Kryptoninans are able to fight him evenly despite the fact that he had been exposed to the sun much longer. After the Nuke in BvS Superman's energy reserves were depleted. He needed more solar energy to heal and was able to do so after mere moments of exposure. By your logic it would take another 33 years for him to get to his previous power levels. This is completely illogical.
Zod is Kal-El's equal. Case closed.
Faora expressed it perfectly in the movie. “You’re weak Kal El, unsure of yourself. You have a sense of morality and that puts you at an evolutionary disadvantage”. This was Clark’s literal first fight of his life. He had never tested his limits. It wasn’t until BvS came around that Clark became Superman, and we started to see his higher end feats. On top of that, he was fighting a bloodlusted Zod when he was morals on. Come on.
Having fight experience is not going to make him any faster/stronger/tougher. The other Kryptonians matched him in those categories. The only thing that will improve over time is skill and intuition.
And yet Kal-El has some of his best feats in Man of Steel. His single best traversal speed feat (flying halfway around the world) and one of his best strength/durability feats (withstanding the force of the World' Engine's beam).
You have yet to provide me with feats from the movie to suggest that Zod no sells Thor’s lightning. I need the energy durability feats. The only ones are Superman being hit by the plasma cannons, which he was knocked on his butt and cringing in pain, and Faora being KO’d by a rocket.
Kal-El, Faora-Ul and Nam-Ek have also withstood heat vision. The same heat vision that would have instantly killed Iron Man and Malekith. Their energy durability is below a sun-exposed Kryptoninan's and Iron Man kept fighting. You have failed to provide me with feats to suggest that Thor will be able to "fry" (the original term I was debating) Zod with lightning considering he has only been able to do that to exactly one being with a name and that being (Malekith) being an absolute mook that Zod could kill with a look.
The whole basis of my argument is that Thor hits Zod with lightning (who doesn’t have the feats to no sell) and kill him with SB. Once you show me a feat of Zod tanking energy or something as hot/powerful as lightning, then I’ll concede.
It is ironic that you say I have no counters when I have proven you wrong in this thread twice already using evidence from the films. I even asked someone else for Malekith durability feats and they have yet to respond.
Thor is not touching Zod. The speed gap is vast. Zod is going to beat him to death and there is nothing Thor can do about it.
Log in to comment