MCU T'Challa vs CW Ricardo Diaz

T'Challa

Vs.

Ricardo Diaz

T'Challa takes on Ricardo Diaz in a random encounter with the opponents having no knowledge of each other.

T'Challa is depowered.

T'Challa gets his ritual combat gear. Diaz gets a metal link chain and a combat knife.

In character.

Win by any means.

I'll back T'challa.

Diaz should win, but M'Baku did beat outriders in IW, making depowered T'Challa very impressive.

Pretty sure he used Vibranium equipment to do that.

Diaz

Probably Panther.

@mutant1230: He used jabaari wood.

Panther

Díaz. Herbless t’challa was pathetic

@jashro44: Is it possible Jabari has similar qualities?

Diaz easily.

Come on, T’Challa murks him

@stormdriven: How?

It only showed M'Baku smashing an Outrider who was already on the ground to begin with. I don't think we actually see him beating one in straight up combat. He survived the skrimish though, so I guess you can take that as a feat.

OT: Was not impressed with depowered Panther. Diaz takes this solidly

Depowered? I think murking Diaz is a bit extreme.

I think the implication of the scene is clear. Also pretty sure we actually saw M'baku beat it to the ground.

Old comment but yes it does according to winston duke.

Don't think we did. If I'm wrong here and the scene explicitly shows M'Baku taking down an Outrider who is at full strength and not already incapacitated, I'll instantly concede. But if my memory serves me right, we just saw the man swinging his hammer on an Outrider already flat on its back and crushing the skull. That indicates he has the striking power to damage one but doesn't mean he can overcome it's fercocity and strength in straight up combat.

I'm not arguing M'Baku would lose 10/10 against a lone Outrider, but if he does win it would be difficult, and I certainly don't think the one feat he has shows he can take more than a single Outrider at a time (if even).

@thetruthiii: I just rewatched the scene and you are correct. The outrider was lying on the ground. Still it doesn't look like M'aku had help (no one is near him) and it wouldn't make sense to cut to him beating on a random dead corpse. I also doubt that M'baku and the other Jabaari members were standing around doing nothing during the battle. They were most likely participating.

I completely agree he was participating. Hence why I referenced his mere survival from the battle an applicable feat. But I think there's way too many plausible external factors to assume he 1v1ed that Outrider completely. Maybe it was aiming for one of his men and he took it out from behind. Maybe Cap or Panther had already stunned it and moved on. Maybe he had a soldier or two helping him and they were overwhelmed and killed by it offscreen. Keep in mind this is an all-out war, so the chances of a 1 on 1 battle being instigated and uninterrupted is highly unlikely to begin with. Besides, he had a whole squadron of men not too far behind him.

Can I ask where you watched it? I couldn't find the clip on YouTube, but maybe I wasn't looking hard enough

Diaz dies.

@jashro44: @bladeoffury: How is Diaz supposed to deal with T’Challa’s shield and his weapon? Diaz’s bully style of fighting isn’t going to work against someone capable of wrestling guys that can pick up men with one arm

@thetruthiii:

I completely agree he was participating. Hence why I referenced his mere survival from the battle an applicable feat. But I think there's way too many plausible external factors to assume he 1v1ed that Outrider completely. Maybe it was aiming for one of his men and he took it out from behind. Maybe Cap or Panther had already stunned it and moved on. Maybe he had a soldier or two helping him and they were overwhelmed and killed by it offscreen. Keep in mind this is an all-out war, so the chances of a 1 on 1 battle being instigated and uninterrupted is highly unlikely to begin with. Besides, he had a whole squadron of men not too far behind him.

I don't think it was aiming for one of his men. As I said M'baku is alone in the shot. Cap and black panther just stunning it wouldn't be a big deal unless m'baku fought it like the second after it was stunned (all though I think cap was fighting Corvus at this point and black panther was no where to be seen). You can only be stunned for so long. There are no corpses in the shot of his men (well there are but there like 20ft away) so he definitely didn't have help.

I also find it hard to believe that M'baku would would fight an entire battle (one where he was literally on the front lines) and did not engage any outriders one on one. That seems completely unbelievable honestly. And considering we saw random no named Wakandains defeat outriders (M'baku himself was fodderizing the war dogs in black panther that were defeating outriders) I don't think its unreasonable to conclude m'baku did kill that outrider. Unless we are assuming he is beneath Wakandain fodder which wouldn't make sense.

Can I ask where you watched it? I couldn't find the clip on YouTube, but maybe I wasn't looking hard enough

Found a couple videos on youtube. This one has the most.

Here is the opening charge where we see some war dogs take out some outriders:

Fair point. I was assuming they were unarmed but I guess gear is a big advantage. Do you think T'challa would try to kill Diaz or do you think he would fight him the same way he fought M'baku and killmonger in ritual combat.

Could go either way

@jashro44: I think he probably would. The reasons he didn’t kill M’Baku were because he is Wakandan and “your people need you,” reasons Diaz doesn’t have. T’Challa doesn’t have an aversion to killing either, and Diaz has nothing redeemable about him.

As for Killmonger, I’m not sure how he would’ve handled that in the end, but I think he would’ve let him live too

Oliver can lift people with one arm as well. In fact, going by feats, he is stronger than M'baku is.

@rbt: M’Baku held him out straight armed without any effort whatsoever. Also throwing them the way M’Baku did? I don’t remember him doing anything like that.

Oliver's feat against Anarky is comparable. Even if you think there is a strength gap, I don't think its enough to make a difference. And Diaz wasn't just bullying Oliver physically(though he was clearly the physical superior), he was outhitting him as well.

@rbt: I don't think Diaz out muscled Oliver if that is what your implying. I don't think they really engaged in a proper contest of strength. The closest is in the finale fight Diaz choked Oliver for a few seconds but its possible Oliver could have broke out if he tried a bit longer. He just decided to punch his way out instead (I assume because its easier). I think Diaz is close or equal to Oliver. If he's stronger I doubt its by a whole lot.

@rbt: That’s not really all that comparable. M’Baku picked up the Wakandan soldier, held him out with his arm straight with no strain whatsoever, then tossed him aside like nothing. Oliver’s used his hips as well as his arm, with a smaller guy, and with more effort. It’s a good feat, but M’Baku was effortlessly strong. And T’Challa managed to submit him.

Oliver also tossed Anarky with far greater speed. As for wrestling with physically superior characters, Oliver managed to submit Stardust.

@rbt: Yes, and he needed much more effort and more muscle groups to do it. Like I said, it’s a good feat, but it doesn’t make him stronger than M’Baku.

What were Stardust’s feats again? Best thing I remember from him is breaking a neck with one arm

@stormdriven:

Yes, and he needed much more effort and more muscle groups to do it. Like I said, it’s a good feat, but it doesn’t make him stronger than M’Baku.

Those feats are certainly comparable.

What were Stardust’s feats again? Best thing I remember from him is breaking a neck with one arm

He was stronger than Oliver by statements. And Oliver had no trouble getting him in a lock he could not get out of. So, what T'Challa did is nothing Oliver can't do.

@rbt: After rewatching the scene, I’m really not seeing how they are comparable. M’Baku’s feat is flat out better.

So far all we know, Stardust is only marginally stronger than Oliver? Then I don’t see why that’s comparable to what T’Challa did.

Regardless, Diaz is still going to have to fight through a shield and iklwa (short spear), which isn’t happening

@stormdriven:

After rewatching the scene, I’m really not seeing how they are comparable. M’Baku’s feat is flat out better.

I don't see how its not. M'baku used lesser effort that Oliver but sent the guy flying at much slower pace.

So far all we know, Stardust is only marginally stronger than Oliver? Then I don’t see why that’s comparable to what T’Challa did.

No, he completely overpowered him during their first fight. T'Challa got someone stronger than him in a lock. So did Oliver.

Regardless, Diaz is still going to have to fight through a shield and iklwa (short spear), which isn’t happening

And that's a fair argument.

However, I don't see why Diaz can't do worse to T'Challa if they were in same situation as Oliver and Diaz were as he did to Oliver.

@rbt: Looked about as fast to me, but agree to disagree on that.

He failed to do the same in their second fight.

I’m not really sure what your last sentence is trying to say, but T’Challa would beat Diaz anyway

@stormdriven:

He failed to do the same in their second fight.

Because Oliver never gave him the chance. He wasn't aware that Stardust had super-strength when he fought first and hence got overwhelmed. In their second fight, he fought accordingly.

I’m not really sure what your last sentence is trying to say, but T’Challa would beat Diaz anyway

I case see a case being made for T'Challa in this particular scenario since he has a massive range advantage on Diaz and Diaz hasn't shown the ability to work past it yet.

But my main point was that if Diaz and T'Challa were in same situation as he and Oliver were(h2h), then Diaz would do worse to T'Challa than he did to Oliver.

@rbt: There were opportunities during the second fight, like a clinch Oliver broke easily. I remember there being one or two more, but I’ll have to rewatch it to make sure.

And what makes you say that? Because he tussled with Oliver? Diaz is a street fighter, that’s all. T’Challa is a much better technical fighter, and is perfectly capable of taking on and beating physically superior fighters. If anything, Oliver’s poor track record against brute strength fighters should be more than enough to say he doesn’t perform well against opponents like that.

@stormdriven:

And what makes you say that? Because he tussled with Oliver? Diaz is a street fighter, that’s all.

He obviously isn't just a street fighter if he could outskill Dig, stomp Thea while at a disadvantage and match Oliver. He has yet to loose a fight with anyone not Oliver.

T’Challa is a much better technical fighter, and is perfectly capable of taking on and beating physically superior fighters. If anything, Oliver’s poor track record against brute strength fighters should be more than enough to say he doesn’t perform well against opponents like that.

That has never happened. He has excellent track records against brutes. Stardust, Deathride, Tobais, Brick, Caleb, Darhk, Grundy, Dominators, Mick, to name a few. He struggles against opponents who are physically superior and extremely skilled, like Slade, which you can hardly fault him for.

The fact that a metahuman with super strength, ability to feel no pain and decent enough skill(matching Rene before he was enhanced) was beaten solidly by Oliver but Diaz held on for as long as he did, despite likely being weaker than that metahuman, means he is very skilled. The only argument I have seen being used for Diaz not being skilled is choreography, which isn't enough, especially when discussing Arrow because they sometimes struggle with choreography. I mean, Oliver vs Damian fight had even worse choreography. That doesn't mean Damian, or Oliver, is a brute. That just means Arrow had a bad choreography day. Happens more often that I'd like.

I would give it to diaz.Tchalla wasnt impressive without herbs.

T'Challa wasn't particularly impressive herbless, in no small part because he had to deal with newly acquired stats.

Diaz wasn't impressive either however. I could see it going either way, maybe T'Challa since he's still physically superior.

M'Baku was alone in like a 5 foot radius. There were multiple corpses just a few feet behind him. It's entirely plausible, in fact very likely, that one of those corpses could have aided him. It's not like he's going to plant his feet and fight an extended period of time in the exact same location the conflict began; chances are him and the Outrider fighting him would have shifted positions throughout the course of their battle, especially considering their main form of attack seems to be straight up tackling enemies.

The very first Outrider Cap fought he hit multiple times and then moved on. It's possible that there was a scenario similar to that where the Outrider was on the brink of death but still twitching, and M'Baku merely finished it off. Groot also impaled several through the chest, and none of them died on the spot. Also, while you're right about Cap, how do you quantify Panther's location at this moment? Once again, there were men close behind him that could have helped.

This was a far. Both sides had armies, and one of them was completely mindless and rabid. The battle was utter chaos, and so the chances of there being a 1 on 1 duel with no intereference for the entire length is highly, highly unlikely. M'Baku could have engaged an Outrider by himself here and there, but something would have definitely happened to interrupt them. I mean, Panther and Cap were always fighting like 5 Outriders simultaneously. Also M'Baku has no visible injuries after killing the already downed Outrider, which I find hard to swallow if he really did beat it 1v1.

@thetruthiii:

M'Baku was alone in like a 5 foot radius. There were multiple corpses just a few feet behind him. It's entirely plausible, in fact very likely, that one of those corpses could have aided him. It's not like he's going to plant his feet and fight an extended period of time in the exact same location the conflict began; chances are him and the Outrider fighting him would have shifted positions throughout the course of their battle, especially considering their main form of attack seems to be straight up tackling enemies.

Yes I acknowledged that there were people around M'baku however they weren't really close enough to help out. I don't think the outriders have the strategy to shift opponents. They were single minded to the point they were willing to kill themselves.

The very first Outrider Cap fought he hit multiple times and then moved on. It's possible that there was a scenario similar to that where the Outrider was on the brink of death but still twitching, and M'Baku merely finished it off. Groot also impaled several through the chest, and none of them died on the spot. Also, while you're right about Cap, how do you quantify Panther's location at this moment? Once again, there were men close behind him that could have helped.

So are we assuming throughout the entire battle M'baku was specifically only engaged with the wounded outriders? Because I find that hard to believe.

This was a far. Both sides had armies, and one of them was completely mindless and rabid. The battle was utter chaos, and so the chances of there being a 1 on 1 duel with no intereference for the entire length is highly, highly unlikely.

There were several points where we saw the heroes outnumbered throughout the battle. Why are the chances slim for a one on one battle through out the length of the battle? I'm not saying M'baku was engaged one on one with every outrider he fought but the chances he didn't have to deal with a single outrider that wasn't wounded is highly unlikely. Likewise I think in cases like us cutting to a scene of M'baku we should just use Occam's razor.

M'Baku could have engaged an Outrider by himself here and there, but something would have definitely happened to interrupt them.

Why?

I mean, Panther and Cap were always fighting like 5 Outriders simultaneously.

Wouldn't this make it less likely that M'baku had help? It shows the heroes were mostly outnumbered throughout the battle.

Also M'Baku has no visible injuries after killing the already downed Outrider, which I find hard to swallow if he really did beat it 1v1.

I don't really think any named character had more than scrapes and scratches by the end of it. Even Okoye and black widow after fighting and losing to proxima midnight. I don't think its a stretch M'baku just didn't get injured. Plus for what its worth he wears armor made of Jabaari wood which Winston Duke said can go toe to toe with vibranium (jabaari wood is an example of plant life which is infused with vibranium, and according to Winston Duke apparently the Jabbaaris do have advanced tech as well, its just powered by jabaari wood instead of vibranium).

So its possible the Jabaari wood armor helped him avoid damage.

We only have a split second scene to determine exactly what happened in the conflict prior. Literally both of our arguments are all speculation at this point lmao

@thetruthiii:

They will shift opponents if the one they were fighting is killed or if they're attacked from behind. I think the soldiers behind him were definitely within distance to help out, or have been engaged in the same battle temporarily. They were only a few feet back.

That isn't exactly easy to fight with synergy when your dealing with super human enemies all at once.

No, I'm assuming that specific Outrider we see M'Baku kill wasn't wholly taken out by just him, and that he never had the chance to fight a single prime Outrider uninterrupted by the chaos around him.

Well that is an assumption not a fact. My argument is also assumptions admittedly but I think mine makes the fewest assumptions.

As I've conceded prior, I do think M'Baku can take an Outrider 1v1, but it'll be a hard fought battle with injuries.

Eh, I don't agree. As I said and showed in the second video I posted we see fodder war dogs take down outriders. I am not gonna argue all war dogs could defeat an outrider but I think it speaks for there prowess. But the thing is the war dogs were being fodderized by M'baku in black panther. I don't think its a hard fight for M'baku unless we assume he is equivalent to fodder.

The whole point of debating is to avoid Occam's Razor IMO. I just don't think the simplest solution here makes any sense.

Why doesn't it make sense though? I guess this is where we disconnect. I can respect this as in another thread I voiced a similar concern regarding hawkeye and black panthers fight in civil war. However I don't think its a stretch M'baku can beat outriders. They might be super human but there also mindless brutes with no skill. Its a good feat for M'baku but not an impossible feat in a super hero movie. Its not like M'baku was the only one killing outriders.

Because it's war (excuse my first typo). Wakandans fight as a unit and the Outriders aren't smart enough to purposefully segregate fighters using their superior numbers advantage. Everything is very chaotic, with energy beams, bullets and explosives flying everywhere. Distractions and external forces are bountiful to the extreme.

I think the chaos of battle would make it even harder to fight with synergy. And M'baku has never really fought with synergy with his Jabaaris. Even during the battle of Wakanda he was kind of on his own doing his own thing.

I used that as an example to prove it's nigh-impossible to obtain a 1v1 fight that is uninterrupted throughout its entire course. Probably not the best example lol.

What do you mean "entire course"? The entire course of M'baku fighting an outrider or throughout the whole war? If its the latter I agree if its the former than I think that was proven false in the film as we saw several instances of outriders out numbering the heroes and the heroes being forced to 1v1 them.

Cap was bleeding at the mouth, as was Widow IIRC. Also M'Baku wasn't wearing full on armor, his arms and face were unprotected.

Widow wasn't bleeding through the mouth. I think you might be thinking of when scarlet witch killed proxima midnight and her blood splattered on Widow? Cap did get overwhelmed at one point when the outriders swarmed him so he could have been bleeding. However we never saw M'baku get swarmed like cap did. All I am saying is M'baku was likely pulling his weight in the battle.

T'Challa in an ok fight.

Diaz, he is almost at Oliver Queen's level.

@rbt: I’m tired of debating the Diggle fight, at best he had the upper hand against Diggle. Dig was in no danger of losing. Thea wasn’t in her prime, so that feat is dismissable. Diaz, for all intents and purposes, is a thug. He’s got no training that we know of, really only one weak link that could even POSSIBLY hint at it, and not a single character made mention of him being trained.

Every single one of those guys, Oliver struggled with, minus Tobias and Deathride who he beat somewhat solidly. Let’s not pretend he has an easy time with these guys. He was never capable of putting down Grundy without gear, first off. Caleb more or less the same, someone who had Oliver dead to rights if it weren’t for Roy. He had more trouble with Brick than he should have, Brick put him on the ground after getting kicked a few times despite being blindsided by Oliver. I seem to remember Oliver getting punched off a building by a Dominator, and Dahrk, seriously? He was former League of Assassins, someone capable of fighting somewhat evenly with Sara. You said it yourself, hardly just a brute character.

When did he fight Mick?

People always say if there isn’t any training mentioned or showed then that means they’re unskilled. Well, same thing applies here. Diaz is a drug dealer, and that’s all we know about him. Just because you give Oliver Queen trouble, doesn’t make you a skilled fighter.

@stormdriven: Oliver was thrown off a building by a dominator. There is a scene where we see Oliver knocking a dominator down when he is in the ground. So he has one showing where he beats a dominator and one showing where he loses.

I am guessing rbt is talking about legends season 2 episode 1. When Mick attacked Oliver after waking up from his coma.

@jashro44: The Mick fight isn’t worth considering then, since Mick was swinging wildly after waking up from a coma at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean

Yea I agree.