MCU: SHIELD Agents vs Asgardians (2v2)

Gallery

• Versions specified at Full Health
• Strictly Melee Combat: Loki is armed with his dual Asgardian daggers, Valk is armed with her Sword, May is armed with the Berseker Staff, Natasha is armed with Proxima Midnight's Spear
• Morals Off / Going all out
• Battle takes place on Titan

When these 2 fine SHIELD veterans take on 2 of Asgard's greatest warriors, who will come out on top?

Natasha dies. I don't know about May.

No

X

@the_magister@supremegeneration@angeljax@kevd4wg@blackspidey2099@webinyoureye11@arcus1@geekryan

May and Nat die horribly and quickly in mismatch. WTF is this?

Dang, that reminds me just how skilled Loki/Valkyrie are

X

I know people think its crazy for characters like this to be compared. But in reality bringing a one shot weapon into the picture of a fight completely changes it. It allows characters to compete with or beat people entire tiers above them.

Nat honestly could beat either of them due to Proxima's spear. It cut clean through Corvus so I imagine it can harm them and I'm willing to bet Nat can outhit Loki or Valkyrie. On the other hand I don't think the Berserker staff is sharp so May would get stomped by either of them. I don't see Natasha fighting both simultaneously so its a matter of who lasts longer. May against her opponent or the person that fights Natasha.

Asgardians wreck

In universe I think Valkyrie and Loki would wreck though.

Here's an argument for Team 1, granted I'm not going to debate here.

The Berseker Staff boosts May's physicality to Asgardian levels. Granted this is a pretty vague level, but still on level where she can effortlessly hurl cars and overpower other people amped with the Berseker's effects. May's arguably SHIELD's best martial artist, has taken on telepaths with precognition, and has matched Mockingbird in combat, who herself fought a Lady Sif level opponent and did well with human stats and no upgrades.

Widow has already decisively dodged out and outmaneuvered opponents like Hawkeye, a melee weapon specialist more skilled than the likes of Loki or the Valkyrie seeing as he could hold off T'Challa as well as he did in CW, and has a weapon that can take out either Loki or Valk in 1 hit. She could take them out like she took Corvus Glaive.

@amcu: Oh you already gave an argument.

@amcu: Evidence for Nat tagging an Asgardian (not Corvus who was being overpowered in a lock by an exhausted Cap) level opponent when not at a reach advantage or having the other distracted by missiles and being so useless as to miss the opening swing?

I probably would've sided with the Agents in the hardest fight of their life (a case could be made for May since her weapon boosts her stats to comparable levels) had Val and Loki been unarmed. But their monstrous stat edge coupled with one-shot weapons?

Asgardians. Valkyrie MVP

Agreed

Natasha isn't exactly slow. I don't think Loki or Valkyrie have the speed feats to outclass her without scaling to Thor. And Thor was kinda holding back against Loki in their fights while also at a reach disadvantage himself.

More importantly in Avengers 1 Steve managed to breach Loki's guard and land attacks on him(He also got hit but mainly because he was surprised at how little his own strikes did). I don't see him before his shield training being more skilled than Nat so I'd bet she can do the same.

As for Nat's speed feats herself she's dodged grenades fired at her. Loki's best standalone speed feat is catching an arrow fired from far away from him and I don't think that outclasses her feat.

@amcu: Really well thought out argument...

@the_magister: Changed your mind?

Can't tell if your being sarcastic?

@amcu:

Natasha isn't exactly slow. I don't think Loki or Valkyrie have the speed feats to outclass her without scaling to Thor. And Thor was kinda holding back against Loki in their fights while also at a reach disadvantage himself.

Her feats aren't any better than Bobbi or Mays and they didn't exactly shine against Asgardians below Loki and Valkyrie.

More importantly in Avengers 1 Steve managed to breach Loki's guard and land attacks on him(He also got hit but mainly because he was surprised at how little his own strikes did). I don't see him before his shield training being more skilled than Nat so I'd bet she can do the same.

Yeah that's more up to Loki just not caring as Cap can't harm him.

As for Nat's speed feats herself she's dodged grenades fired at her. Loki's best standalone speed feat is catching an arrow fired from far away from him and I don't think that outclasses her feat.

The round speed of the launcher they used clocks at around 250ft per second. The fastest bows have been clocked at 329-400ft and I see no reason why Haweye would not be using the best. Loki didn't even have to look. So take that as you will.

I am not.

Also to my knowledge it's never been stated that the Berserker staff boosts humans to Asgardian levels. It just pisses people off and makes them a vague amount stronger.

@anthp2000: "Asgardians"

@greysentinel365:

Her feats aren't any better than Bobbi or Mays and they didn't exactly shine against Asgardians below Loki and Valkyrie.

Their not the same characters. And also I thought I recalled Bobbi blocking and or dodging a lot of the Asgardians strikes that she was against while also landing some of her own. Give her a one shot weapon and I'd bet on her beating him.

Yeah that's more up to Loki just not caring as Cap can't harm him.

If so its a little odd that Loki decided to deflect Steve's shield throw in the second part of their engagement despite it doing nothing to him seconds before. And regardless Steve was blocking and dodging attacks.

Like I said the only occasions where Steve is tagged is when he went in for a strike and just didn't work. But if you look at the second gif even without his shield while at a horrible reach disadvantage he manages to breach into Loki's guard and land a hit. Even if you want to say that Loki didn't care about being tagged himself, he still was at least trying to hit Steve with his spear. Its far and away harder to get into someone's reach and land a hit while you yourself don't have a weapon and they have a long spear. Yet Steve did just that.

Now Natasha doesn't even have to replicate what Cap did. She has a spear here eliminating the need for her to navigate a reach disadvantage. I'd bet she can do it.

The round speed of the launcher they used clocks at around 250ft per second. The fastest bows have been clocked at 329-400ft and see no reason why Haweye would not b eusing the best. Loki didn't even have to look. So take that as you will.

Arrows like most projectiles lose a huge amount of their speed over extended distances. Consider the distance Loki was from Clint.

A grenade however should be an exception to that rule as its consistently propelled by itself instead of being launched by something else and than just costing along on that momentum like an arrow or bullet.

Overall I'd imagine the feats are roughly comparable. Maybe Loki's was better because of how casual it was or the fact that he caught it. But I never thought she was faster than him anyways, just more skilled.

Oh thanks!

@amcu:

Their not the same characters.

Yeah Nats significantly below both.

And also I thought I recalled Bobbi blocking and or dodging a lot of the Asgardians strikes that she was against while also landing some of her own. Give her a one shot weapon and I'd bet on her beating him.

Bobbi used her batons and landed one kick before being curbstomped. Also Loki and Valk outmatch Vin Tak by so much it's not funny.

If so its a little odd that Loki decided to deflect Steve's shield throw in the second part of their engagement despite it doing nothing to him seconds before.

Probably because he wanted to beat Cap down and get away. Also consider Caps shield blows doing nothing.

But if you look at the second gif even without his shield while at a horrible reach disadvantage he manages to breach into Loki's guard and land a hit.

The difference being that Loki is using a single weapon which he has to use in slower wide swings while Cap can close the gap. Loki has his daggers here.

Now Natasha doesn't even have to replicate what Cap did. She has a spear here eliminating the need for her to navigate a reach disadvantage. I'd bet she can do it.

Except either opponent can just bash it out of her hands at any time. Even against Proxima, who's strength at best is SS level all Nat could do was hold her staff in front of herself and pray it held and in the end Prox just punched through her. I'm just not seeing it.

Consider the distance Loki was from Clint.

Not that far. He flew right past him.

Maybe Loki's was better because of how casual it was or the fact that he caught it.

It is.

But I never thought she was faster than him anyways, just more skilled.

Based on?

Asgardians stomp, what is this.

I am not buying this claim that adding oneshot weapons helps them either, considering Loki and Valkyrie's skill and the fact that they have superhuman speed, strength, durability, and such. There isn't even proof that the humans are strong enough to pierce an Asgardian enough with those weapons either, just because they may be able to cut an Asgardian does not mean humans have the strength to deal fatal blows with them. Using Loki's fight with Cap as proof of anything is laughable considering he was trying to get caught there. If Loki can hold his own against THOR and dodge/block strikes from his hammer, he can surely do the same against Natasha or May with their weapons.

"Oneshot weapons" is the only argument for the humans having a chance and it doesn't work.

I don't watch AoS but "Asgardian level" seems vague and not really helpful, Loki has far better feats than standard Asgardians.

Natasha doesn't have the feats to avoid or keep up with Loki. He tears the staff from her hands and rips her in half with the OP's stipulations.

@anthp2000

Team 2 wins

@greysentinel365:

Yeah Nats significantly below both.

I just don't like the ABC logic here. Not denying that both of them have better skill feats than her but theirs also not definitive proof that either is more skilled than her. Nor is their proof that Sif and Vin Tak are below Loki and Valkyrie. I just don't like assuming that they will perform the same on different opponents when none of the characters here are the same and there are no clear cut comparisons between them.

Bobbi used her batons and landed one kick before being curbstomped. Also Loki and Valk outmatch Vin Tak by so much it's not funny.

Loki and Valkyrie by feats may be far and away above Sif and Vin Tak overall. But this is more a competition of pure speed and skill. Its a question of who lands a hit on the other quickest and theirs no definitive proof that either Sif or Vin Tak are below or on par with Loki and Valkyrie in that aspect.

Regardless it doesn't really matter. If Bobbi landed a kick than just replace that kick with a stab from a one shot weapon and she wins the fight. That's how this goes. I think your using a incomparable situation because your using examples when a peak human fought opponents that they couldn't harm and ended up losing overall because they never had a chance at winning. Whereas what we're dealing with here is totally different as the peak human is now supplied with a weapon that will one shot their opponent if they land a good strike.

Probably because he wanted to beat Cap down and get away.

If so than it still shows that he'll avoid attacks that won't necessarily hurt him. That's the point I'm making. I don't think he would have not avoided Steve's strikes if he could have without an issue.

Also consider Caps shield blows doing nothing.

That doesn't help Loki's case. This was literally my point. That the shield didn't hurt him and yet he still choose to block it.

The difference being that Loki is using a single weapon which he has to use in slower wide swings while Cap can close the gap. Loki has his daggers here.

I don't think having a longer weapon makes it easier to breach your guard. It makes it harder if you actually know how to use your weapon. In order to get into someone's guard that has such a long reach you have to travel multiple feet into their guard without them managing to tag you. That's almost impossible if your opponent knows how to use their weapon. Most people aren't trained to fight with spears in combat these days but I think for those that are they would rather have a spear against a melee opponent than two knives.

In addition Loki's best skill feat(which is fighting Thor)is while he had spears. I think knives are more a backup weapon for him. I don't see any reason to assume he performs better with knives than with spears.

Except either opponent can just bash it out of her hands at any time. Even against Proxima, who's strength at best is SS level all Nat could do was hold her staff in front of herself and pray it held and in the end Prox just punched through her. I'm just not seeing it.

Yeah against an opponent that she couldn't harm she ended up getting overwhelmed. Give her a one shot weapon and she'd have killed Proxima. Also while Loki is above Proxima in physicals I'd say she's likely above him in skill.

Not that far. He flew right past him.

Still looked like at least a couple hundred feet to me but its kinda hard to be certain.

Based on?

Outskilling Clint who managed to fight T'Challa without being outskilled. That would be her best feat. While I think Steve is somewhat better, T'Challa is still on the same level as current Cap. And current Cap is supposed to be >>>> Avengers 1 Cap. If Nat and current Cap are on generally similar standings I see her outskilling Loki considering Steve did so before receiving training from SHIELD.

@anthp2000: Wasn't it actually confirmed in a guidebook or something that Loki was trying against Cap and Tony?

@bladeoffury mentions in this thread how the Guidebook stated that Loki could not stand up to Cap and Tony together, therefore proving that Loki did not initally want to get captured by the Avengers and was logically trying to actively beat Steve.

I see. Thanks!

@amcu:

I just don't like the ABC logic here. Not denying that both of them have better skill feats than her but theirs also not definitive proof that either is more skilled than her.

Pretty sure better skill feats covers it.

Nor is their proof that Sif and Vin Tak are below Loki and Valkyrie.

One no sells hits from Cap and fights Thor while the other was thrown into a wall by a kick from Bobbi.

But this is more a competition of pure speed and skill. Its a question of who lands a hit on the other quickest and theirs no definitive proof that either Sif or Vin Tak are below or on par with Loki and Valkyrie in that aspect.

Valk has deflected Hela's blades which I believe you have compared to bullets and Loki had no issue keeping up with her. Many lowball Loki and highball Valk in that exchange but you have to consider that Loki was trying to manipulate Valk while she just wanted to beat the crap out of him. Likewise is was only due to Loki's realisation from the vision that Valk was able to land the K.O

Again, Loki is using his knife here. Which means he'll be using moves like these.

Not the wide swings Cap had to deal with.

Regardless it doesn't really matter. If Bobbi landed a kick than just replace that kick with a stab from a one shot weapon and she wins the fight.

Not that simple. Bobbi had two weapons in her hands to bind or distract Vin Tak so she could attack from a third point. With staff weapons Nat and May can only attack from two points at a time (one side of the staff has to be pointed away to strike with the other)

That's how this goes. I think your using a incomparable situation because your using examples when a peak human fought opponents that they couldn't harm

They could harm them. That's the difference.

That doesn't help Loki's case. This was literally my point. That the shield didn't hurt him and yet he still choose to block it.

Hey if I threw a pillow at your face would you instinctively block it?

I think knives are more a backup weapon for him

Which is why he mains them.

Yeah against an opponent that she couldn't harm she ended up getting overwhelmed. Give her a one shot weapon and she'd have killed Proxima. Also while Loki is above Proxima in physicals I'd say she's likely above him in skill.

Bold and unsubstantiated claim.

Still looked like at least a couple hundred feet to me but its kinda hard to be certain.

I'll be champ and break it down for you.

First lets establish where Hawkeye is

Right next to Avengers tower

Now let's break this down.

Nat is flying down the corridor of buildings right next to Clint. Loki banks up (which puts him above the tower that's right next to Clint, which is how he falls onto it.

Loki flew right next to him. We can even see this in the way Clint fires the shot. When has had to target other Chitauri he's clearly aimed ahead of them.

With Loki he fires straight on without needing to aim ahead. Because Loki is right next to him.

Outskilling Clint who managed to fight T'Challa without being outskilled.

Yeah we've been over why I more see that fight as a draw.

Loki and Valk. Not seeing how this is close?

@anthp2000: I know you give a lot of credit to skilled human fighters, but c'mon now......................

Wow

@rebake: Like Amcu mentioned above, one weapon could change the outcome of a one-sided fight. I mean, Black Widow would never be able to do much to anything to Glaive, and she still took him out in 10 seconds straight just because she had this spear. So, I'm pretty sure you can make arguments for them.

I thought it'd be interesting discussions about how much of a boost these weapons are for human fighters.

@anthp2000: “I mean, Black Widow would never be able to do much to anything to Glaive, and she still took him out in 10 seconds straight just because she had this spear”

Because he had just just finished deflecting missiles from Falcon..

You’re making it sound like she fought him straight up with Proxima’s spear and got the better of him in ten seconds, which isn’t true at all.

@thevivas: I won't debate this in my own thread. I think we've discussed this before anyways.

Widow took Glaive out so quickly in large part due to the element of surprise. While her weapon would in theory be able to take down either of the Asgardians with a well placed blow, I wouldn't count on her being able to do so in a normal fight. Both Asgardians are skilled in their own right (Loki's probably inferior, but Valkyrie in theory should be just as good as them, if not better via experience), and it'd be easier for them to just rip the spear away from Nat than for her to land a critical blow.

May with the Beserker staff should, in theory, be able to contend with either of the Asgardians, but at the same time, the staff's power is kinda undefined. Loki appears to be stronger than base level Asgardians, and Valkyrie seems to have better stats than Asgardians were shown to have at the time the Beserker staff was being used (before Ragnarok, I wouldn't have expected someone like Sif to be able to take out those ships like Valkyrie did-or even take Loki down the way Valkyrie did). Point being, I'm not sure the staff would make May a full stat equal to Valkyrie. May has a skill advantage based on her sheer quantity of showings, but Valkyrie has enough of a rep to hold her own if not match or exceed her, and Loki should be able to hold his own as well thanks in part to stats like durability. Loki's durability edge is helped by the fact that May has a blunt weapon, while he has knives (sword could help Valkyrie too in this regard)

At the end of the day, unless Nat manages to land a critical blow quickly, I don't see the agents winning this

Loki in the first Avengers movie was beating Captain America. Unless Black Widow or Agent May are on Captain America's level. And that's just Loki. Valkryie beat him in that small scuffle that even the OP posted. Staaamp

@arcus1: How skilled do you think Loki and the Valkyrie are as fighters in the general MCU?

In theory, someone like Valkyrie should probably be one of the best (particularly with weapons). I think she'd be comparable to the likes of May

Loki's not at that level, maybe more like Ward?

Maybe Valkyrie/Loki would be like Black Panther/Winter Soldier

@arcus1: Bruh

Skill-wise May and Ward are way above Loki and Valkyrie, my boi

By feats, yeah

But by reputation, I'd be very surprised if a thousand+ year old warrior, who was the the best of Asgard's best couldn't at least hold her own against May, let alone Ward

Like, you can't honestly tell me that Grant Ward should have any business being way above Valkyrie

@arcus1: In all fairness, Sif is a thousand year old master and one of Asgard's finest, and she was not on level with the likes of May at all.

Based on what? Some sort of scaling with Vin-Tak?

Sif, imo, was superior to Vin Tak overall, he got lucky that his disguise tech blocked her sword strike and he was able to surprise her with the memory erasing ability of his weapon (the time he tagged her with it wouldn't have done anything if not for that ability)

When Bobbi fought Vin-Tak, she definitely showed good moves, and I could see her being more skilled, but the nature of Bobbi vs Vin Tak was very different from Sif vs Vin Tak (in the first fight, Vin Tak put Bobbi down once he got serious, and in the second one Bobbi was just stalling, while with Sif vs Vin Tak, both were actually capable of beating the other and looking to do so). Plus, Bobbi's arguably better than May (while May has more tactical experience, in pure h2h I think Bobbi would win-similar skill and better stats. A tortured Bobbi did better against Ward unarmed than May)

Puls, May more than once commented about how good Sif was, I don't think they'd include that if Sif was intended to be way inferior to May

@arcus1:

I'm like 99% confident Vin Tak just tricked Sif to give himself an edge in a prolonged stalemate and end the fight there. If he was just lucky, he wouldn't pretend like the hit almost took him down when it did nothing.

Bobbi was far more skilled than Vin Tak, there's no argument there, and stalling someone the way Bobbi did didn't change her fighting style at all, she wasn't purely defensive or anything. And I'm not saying how much inferior Sif is to May (I don't have much opinion on that, I asked you in the first place) I'm just saying that basing an entire argument of these warriors being so much better than May or Ward on thousands of years of experience and training from Asgard doesn't say much.